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* orgmode.org welcome page says to install via MELPA but as writing, this cannot be done
@ 2022-09-19 22:57 David Ventimiglia via General discussions about Org-mode.
  2022-09-19 22:59 ` David Ventimiglia via General discussions about Org-mode.
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 41+ messages in thread
From: David Ventimiglia via General discussions about Org-mode. @ 2022-09-19 22:57 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: emacs-orgmode


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Hello,

As of writing (September 19, 2022) the https://orgmode.org/ welcome page
says to install org-mode via MELPA.  However, again as of that date that
cannot be done as org-mode is in neither MELPA nor in MELPA Stable.  This
appears either to be a bug in the https://orgmode.org/ welcome page or with
the release workflow or with the package managers or with some combination
thereof.  Please see the attached screenshots.

Regards,
David A. Ventimiglia

[image: Screenshot from 2022-09-19 15-54-30.png]
[image: Screenshot from 2022-09-19 15-54-16.png]
[image: Screenshot from 2022-09-19 15-53-51.png]

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^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 41+ messages in thread

* Re: orgmode.org welcome page says to install via MELPA but as writing, this cannot be done
  2022-09-19 22:57 orgmode.org welcome page says to install via MELPA but as writing, this cannot be done David Ventimiglia via General discussions about Org-mode.
@ 2022-09-19 22:59 ` David Ventimiglia via General discussions about Org-mode.
  2022-09-20  1:32   ` Bastien
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 41+ messages in thread
From: David Ventimiglia via General discussions about Org-mode. @ 2022-09-19 22:59 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: emacs-orgmode


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Sorry, nevermind.  It's been a long day.

On Mon, Sep 19, 2022 at 3:57 PM David Ventimiglia <
davidaventimiglia@hasura.io> wrote:

> Hello,
>
> As of writing (September 19, 2022) the https://orgmode.org/ welcome page
> says to install org-mode via MELPA.  However, again as of that date that
> cannot be done as org-mode is in neither MELPA nor in MELPA Stable.  This
> appears either to be a bug in the https://orgmode.org/ welcome page or
> with the release workflow or with the package managers or with some
> combination thereof.  Please see the attached screenshots.
>
> Regards,
> David A. Ventimiglia
>
> [image: Screenshot from 2022-09-19 15-54-30.png]
> [image: Screenshot from 2022-09-19 15-54-16.png]
> [image: Screenshot from 2022-09-19 15-53-51.png]
>
>

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^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 41+ messages in thread

* Re: orgmode.org welcome page says to install via MELPA but as writing, this cannot be done
  2022-09-19 22:59 ` David Ventimiglia via General discussions about Org-mode.
@ 2022-09-20  1:32   ` Bastien
  2022-09-20  3:59     ` Ihor Radchenko
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 41+ messages in thread
From: Bastien @ 2022-09-20  1:32 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: David Ventimiglia via General discussions about Org-mode.
  Cc: David Ventimiglia

Hi David,

David Ventimiglia via "General discussions about Org-mode."
<emacs-orgmode@gnu.org> writes:

> Sorry, nevermind.

Done.  :)

Let us know if there is still something I can do to make it more
obvious that this is GNU ELPA and not GNU MELPA.  Many users may
make this confusion but I'm short of ideas.

Thanks,

-- 
 Bastien


^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 41+ messages in thread

* Re: orgmode.org welcome page says to install via MELPA but as writing, this cannot be done
  2022-09-20  1:32   ` Bastien
@ 2022-09-20  3:59     ` Ihor Radchenko
  2022-09-20  5:36       ` Bastien
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 41+ messages in thread
From: Ihor Radchenko @ 2022-09-20  3:59 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Bastien
  Cc: David Ventimiglia via General discussions about Org-mode.,
	David Ventimiglia

Bastien <bzg@gnu.org> writes:

> Let us know if there is still something I can do to make it more
> obvious that this is GNU ELPA and not GNU MELPA.  Many users may
> make this confusion but I'm short of ideas.

The only idea coming to my mind is turning "GNU ELPA" into a link.

-- 
Ihor Radchenko,
Org mode contributor,
Learn more about Org mode at https://orgmode.org/.
Support Org development at https://liberapay.com/org-mode,
or support my work at https://liberapay.com/yantar92


^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 41+ messages in thread

* Re: orgmode.org welcome page says to install via MELPA but as writing, this cannot be done
  2022-09-20  3:59     ` Ihor Radchenko
@ 2022-09-20  5:36       ` Bastien
  2022-09-20  5:41         ` Timothy
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 41+ messages in thread
From: Bastien @ 2022-09-20  5:36 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Ihor Radchenko
  Cc: David Ventimiglia via General discussions about Org-mode.,
	David Ventimiglia

Ihor Radchenko <yantar92@gmail.com> writes:

> The only idea coming to my mind is turning "GNU ELPA" into a link.

Done, thanks the suggestion!

-- 
 Bastien


^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 41+ messages in thread

* Re: orgmode.org welcome page says to install via MELPA but as writing, this cannot be done
  2022-09-20  5:36       ` Bastien
@ 2022-09-20  5:41         ` Timothy
  2022-09-20  7:50           ` Bastien
                             ` (2 more replies)
  0 siblings, 3 replies; 41+ messages in thread
From: Timothy @ 2022-09-20  5:41 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: emacs-orgmode

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Hi Bastien,

The whole top banner has become a bit messy, IMO. I’ll have a go at cleaning it
up later today. See Matrix for a preview I put together by just editing the
in-browser HTML. Also let me know if you don’t use Matrix at all, I just thought
I’d send you a message since you’re on there 🙂.

All the best,
Timothy

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 41+ messages in thread

* Re: orgmode.org welcome page says to install via MELPA but as writing, this cannot be done
  2022-09-20  5:41         ` Timothy
@ 2022-09-20  7:50           ` Bastien
  2022-09-20  9:22             ` IM dev discussions? (was: orgmode.org welcome page says to install via MELPA but as writing, this cannot be done) Ihor Radchenko
  2022-09-22 14:43           ` orgmode.org welcome page says to install via MELPA but as writing, this cannot be done Bastien
  2022-09-22 15:07           ` Max Nikulin
  2 siblings, 1 reply; 41+ messages in thread
From: Bastien @ 2022-09-20  7:50 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Timothy; +Cc: emacs-orgmode

Timothy <orgmode@tec.tecosaur.net> writes:

> The whole top banner has become a bit messy, IMO. I’ll have a go at cleaning it
> up later today. 

As discussed on Matrix, please go ahead -- for future suggestions on
the website, it's fine to discuss them on this list.

Thanks a lot !

-- 
 Bastien


^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 41+ messages in thread

* IM dev discussions? (was: orgmode.org welcome page says to install via MELPA but as writing, this cannot be done)
  2022-09-20  7:50           ` Bastien
@ 2022-09-20  9:22             ` Ihor Radchenko
  2022-09-20 12:11               ` Russell Adams
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 41+ messages in thread
From: Ihor Radchenko @ 2022-09-20  9:22 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Bastien; +Cc: Timothy, emacs-orgmode

Bastien <bzg@gnu.org> writes:

> Timothy <orgmode@tec.tecosaur.net> writes:
>
>> The whole top banner has become a bit messy, IMO. I’ll have a go at cleaning it
>> up later today. 
>
> As discussed on Matrix, please go ahead -- for future suggestions on
> the website, it's fine to discuss them on this list.

The problem with the list is that emails often have ~minutes overheads.
It sometimes takes unnecessary extra time to discuss small
clarifications on list.

I am wondering if we could create a common Org dev matrix room for quick
discussions and then copy the transcript to the relevant ML thread, when
necessary.

-- 
Ihor Radchenko,
Org mode contributor,
Learn more about Org mode at https://orgmode.org/.
Support Org development at https://liberapay.com/org-mode,
or support my work at https://liberapay.com/yantar92


^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 41+ messages in thread

* Re: IM dev discussions? (was: orgmode.org welcome page says to install via MELPA but as writing, this cannot be done)
  2022-09-20  9:22             ` IM dev discussions? (was: orgmode.org welcome page says to install via MELPA but as writing, this cannot be done) Ihor Radchenko
@ 2022-09-20 12:11               ` Russell Adams
  2022-09-21  8:05                 ` Ihor Radchenko
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 41+ messages in thread
From: Russell Adams @ 2022-09-20 12:11 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: emacs-orgmode

On Tue, Sep 20, 2022 at 05:22:50PM +0800, Ihor Radchenko wrote:
> The problem with the list is that emails often have ~minutes overheads.
> It sometimes takes unnecessary extra time to discuss small
> clarifications on list.
>
> I am wondering if we could create a common Org dev matrix room for quick
> discussions and then copy the transcript to the relevant ML thread, when
> necessary.

We have an IRC channel for real time chat. Join in anytime.

------------------------------------------------------------------
Russell Adams                            RLAdams@AdamsInfoServ.com
                                    https://www.adamsinfoserv.com/


^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 41+ messages in thread

* Re: IM dev discussions? (was: orgmode.org welcome page says to install via MELPA but as writing, this cannot be done)
  2022-09-20 12:11               ` Russell Adams
@ 2022-09-21  8:05                 ` Ihor Radchenko
  2022-09-21  8:59                   ` Russell Adams
  2022-09-24 13:22                   ` IM dev discussions? (was: orgmode.org welcome page says to install via MELPA but as writing, this cannot be done) Jean Louis
  0 siblings, 2 replies; 41+ messages in thread
From: Ihor Radchenko @ 2022-09-21  8:05 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Russell Adams; +Cc: emacs-orgmode

Russell Adams <RLAdams@adamsinfoserv.com> writes:

>> I am wondering if we could create a common Org dev matrix room for quick
>> discussions and then copy the transcript to the relevant ML thread, when
>> necessary.
>
> We have an IRC channel for real time chat. Join in anytime.

The disadvantage of IRC is absence of message history.
Without history, small-sized channels like I am proposing (dedicated to
Org mode devs) are not very useful. We live in different time zones and
countries.

-- 
Ihor Radchenko,
Org mode contributor,
Learn more about Org mode at https://orgmode.org/.
Support Org development at https://liberapay.com/org-mode,
or support my work at https://liberapay.com/yantar92


^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 41+ messages in thread

* Re: IM dev discussions? (was: orgmode.org welcome page says to install via MELPA but as writing, this cannot be done)
  2022-09-21  8:05                 ` Ihor Radchenko
@ 2022-09-21  8:59                   ` Russell Adams
  2022-09-21 11:04                     ` Russell Adams
  2022-09-24 13:22                   ` IM dev discussions? (was: orgmode.org welcome page says to install via MELPA but as writing, this cannot be done) Jean Louis
  1 sibling, 1 reply; 41+ messages in thread
From: Russell Adams @ 2022-09-21  8:59 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: emacs-orgmode

On Wed, Sep 21, 2022 at 04:05:56PM +0800, Ihor Radchenko wrote:
> Russell Adams <RLAdams@adamsinfoserv.com> writes:
>
> >> I am wondering if we could create a common Org dev matrix room for quick
> >> discussions and then copy the transcript to the relevant ML thread, when
> >> necessary.
> >
> > We have an IRC channel for real time chat. Join in anytime.
>
> The disadvantage of IRC is absence of message history.
> Without history, small-sized channels like I am proposing (dedicated to
> Org mode devs) are not very useful. We live in different time zones and
> countries.

I disagree. That's why most IRC users stay logged in.

IRC is most accessible, and if you insist there is a Matrix bridge to
Libera.

------------------------------------------------------------------
Russell Adams                            RLAdams@AdamsInfoServ.com
                                    https://www.adamsinfoserv.com/


^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 41+ messages in thread

* Re: IM dev discussions? (was: orgmode.org welcome page says to install via MELPA but as writing, this cannot be done)
  2022-09-21  8:59                   ` Russell Adams
@ 2022-09-21 11:04                     ` Russell Adams
  2022-09-22 14:13                       ` Ihor Radchenko
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 41+ messages in thread
From: Russell Adams @ 2022-09-21 11:04 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: emacs-orgmode

On Wed, Sep 21, 2022 at 10:59:14AM +0200, Russell Adams wrote:
> On Wed, Sep 21, 2022 at 04:05:56PM +0800, Ihor Radchenko wrote:
> > Russell Adams <RLAdams@adamsinfoserv.com> writes:
> >
> > >> I am wondering if we could create a common Org dev matrix room for quick
> > >> discussions and then copy the transcript to the relevant ML thread, when
> > >> necessary.
> > >
> > > We have an IRC channel for real time chat. Join in anytime.
> >
> > The disadvantage of IRC is absence of message history.
> > Without history, small-sized channels like I am proposing (dedicated to
> > Org mode devs) are not very useful. We live in different time zones and
> > countries.
>
> I disagree. That's why most IRC users stay logged in.
>
> IRC is most accessible, and if you insist there is a Matrix bridge to
> Libera.

Let me pose this differently.

The #org-mode channel has a large footprint already, though lower
utilization than #emacs. There are 230 org users online right now.

It would be great to see some dev discussions on IRC, and if we ever
get too much traffic, maybe make a #org-mode-dev channel.

I'd encourage you to try to use the existing resources first,
especially where the user base is. Then split things up later.

------------------------------------------------------------------
Russell Adams                            RLAdams@AdamsInfoServ.com
                                    https://www.adamsinfoserv.com/


^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 41+ messages in thread

* Re: IM dev discussions? (was: orgmode.org welcome page says to install via MELPA but as writing, this cannot be done)
  2022-09-21 11:04                     ` Russell Adams
@ 2022-09-22 14:13                       ` Ihor Radchenko
  2022-09-22 15:52                         ` IM dev discussions? Bastien
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 41+ messages in thread
From: Ihor Radchenko @ 2022-09-22 14:13 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Russell Adams; +Cc: emacs-orgmode

Russell Adams <RLAdams@adamsinfoserv.com> writes:

> The #org-mode channel has a large footprint already, though lower
> utilization than #emacs. There are 230 org users online right now.
>
> It would be great to see some dev discussions on IRC, and if we ever
> get too much traffic, maybe make a #org-mode-dev channel.
>
> I'd encourage you to try to use the existing resources first,
> especially where the user base is. Then split things up later.

This is an option. #emacs is very too noisy for me, but #org-mode
appears to be fairly quiet. It may work.

-- 
Ihor Radchenko,
Org mode contributor,
Learn more about Org mode at https://orgmode.org/.
Support Org development at https://liberapay.com/org-mode,
or support my work at https://liberapay.com/yantar92


^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 41+ messages in thread

* Re: orgmode.org welcome page says to install via MELPA but as writing, this cannot be done
  2022-09-20  5:41         ` Timothy
  2022-09-20  7:50           ` Bastien
@ 2022-09-22 14:43           ` Bastien
  2022-09-23  2:40             ` Ihor Radchenko
  2022-09-22 15:07           ` Max Nikulin
  2 siblings, 1 reply; 41+ messages in thread
From: Bastien @ 2022-09-22 14:43 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Timothy; +Cc: emacs-orgmode

Hi Timothy,

Timothy <orgmode@tec.tecosaur.net> writes:

> The whole top banner has become a bit messy, IMO. I’ll have a go at cleaning it
> up later today. See Matrix for a preview I put together by just editing the
> in-browser HTML. Also let me know if you don’t use Matrix at all, I just thought

Thank you for the https://orgmode.org homepage enhancements!

One nitpick: using a mailto:emacs-orgmode@gnu.org?subject="..." : I'd
rather advertize M-x org-submit-bug-report RET than making it easier
to send just an email: the `org-submit-bug-report' function comes with
more information, and casual users might not know it.

Would it be okay to

1. replace both "report bug" and "feedback" buttons by a "feedback"
   button, pointing to manual https://orgmode.org/manual/Feedback.html ?

2. Add a line above the Repository explicitely exposing the command
   M-x org-submit-bug-report RET ?

Let me know and I'll do it, thanks,

-- 
 Bastien


^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 41+ messages in thread

* Re: orgmode.org welcome page says to install via MELPA but as writing, this cannot be done
  2022-09-20  5:41         ` Timothy
  2022-09-20  7:50           ` Bastien
  2022-09-22 14:43           ` orgmode.org welcome page says to install via MELPA but as writing, this cannot be done Bastien
@ 2022-09-22 15:07           ` Max Nikulin
  2022-09-22 17:23             ` Bastien
  2 siblings, 1 reply; 41+ messages in thread
From: Max Nikulin @ 2022-09-22 15:07 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: emacs-orgmode

On 20/09/2022 12:41, Timothy wrote:
> Hi Bastien,
> 
> The whole top banner has become a bit messy, IMO. I’ll have a go at cleaning it
> up later today. See Matrix for a preview I put together by just editing the
> in-browser HTML. Also let me know if you don’t use Matrix at all, I just thought
> I’d send you a message since you’re on there 🙂.

Timothy, thank you for improvements. Earlier edits in response to 
various requests resulted in some inconsistencies.

The updated page has

     alt="Install from ELPA"

that likely should be "Install from GNU ELPA". I like that new link 
leads directly to the Org package at GNU ELPA, earlier version had a 
link to the site top page.

However Firefox does not show tooltips (unlike for the Librepay link) 
when mouse cursor is over new SVG images. I have no idea if 
screenreaders will use value of the alt attributes.

I expect that some fraction of messages at this list will have "[BUG] 
<short description>" subject literally. Perhaps "&body=..." may be added 
with a template like "Org version: ___, Emacs version: ___" with a note 
requesting subject more specific to the particular problem. Some people 
still will not read it.

An unrelated to the latest changes question. What is the supposed way to 
reach https://orgmode.org/manual/Feedback.html from site main page (to 
become aware of M-x `org-submit-bug-report'?



^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 41+ messages in thread

* Re: IM dev discussions?
  2022-09-22 14:13                       ` Ihor Radchenko
@ 2022-09-22 15:52                         ` Bastien
  2022-09-22 23:07                           ` Matrix (was Re: IM dev discussions?) Tim Cross
  2022-09-23  2:35                           ` IM dev discussions? Ihor Radchenko
  0 siblings, 2 replies; 41+ messages in thread
From: Bastien @ 2022-09-22 15:52 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Ihor Radchenko; +Cc: Russell Adams, emacs-orgmode

Hi Ihor,

Ihor Radchenko <yantar92@gmail.com> writes:

> This is an option. #emacs is very too noisy for me, but #org-mode
> appears to be fairly quiet. It may work.

I agree with Russell that we should first use the available resources,
and our IRC chan on irc.libera.chat is a good one.

(I'm actually there BTW, lurking - you can ping me anytime as I can
read past messages, thanks to being connected with my sr.ht account.)

But IMO there is an even stronger argument: in the case of Org, we
should encourage discussions where both "users" and "developers" can
chime in.  Because many Org users are potential contributors.  (This
would not be the same with another Free Software project, of course.)

If #org-mode can serve for both general questions and dev-oriented
discussion it's good.  If it becomes annoying for many readers, then
setting up transient chans is okay (even on matrix), the same way it
is okay to sit in a room and hack/discuss possible new Org features
with peers.

In general, Org contributors with push access can fix bugs directly,
without announcing this on the mailing list.  But *all other changes*
should be submitted and discussed on this mailing list.

-- 
 Bastien


^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 41+ messages in thread

* Re: orgmode.org welcome page says to install via MELPA but as writing, this cannot be done
  2022-09-22 15:07           ` Max Nikulin
@ 2022-09-22 17:23             ` Bastien
  2022-09-23 16:55               ` Max Nikulin
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 41+ messages in thread
From: Bastien @ 2022-09-22 17:23 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Max Nikulin; +Cc: emacs-orgmode

Hi Max,

Max Nikulin <manikulin@gmail.com> writes:

> The updated page has
>
>     alt="Install from ELPA"
>
> that likely should be "Install from GNU ELPA". 

Fixed, thanks.

> I like that new link
> leads directly to the Org package at GNU ELPA, earlier version had a
> link to the site top page.

+1!

> However Firefox does not show tooltips (unlike for the Librepay link)
> when mouse cursor is over new SVG images. I have no idea if
> screenreaders will use value of the alt attributes.

I added title="" properties.

> I expect that some fraction of messages at this list will have "[BUG]
> <short description>" subject literally. Perhaps "&body=..." may be
> added with a template like "Org version: ___, Emacs version: ___" with
> a note requesting subject more specific to the particular
> problem. Some people still will not read it.

Agreed -- I removed this mailto: link as suggestion in a previous
reply to Tim...

> An unrelated to the latest changes question. What is the supposed way
> to reach https://orgmode.org/manual/Feedback.html from site main page
> (to become aware of M-x `org-submit-bug-report'?

... and placed the https://orgmode.org/manual/Feedback.html link as
the target of the "feedback" svg icon.  

I also added the M-x org-submit-bug-report RET exlpicitely, as it is
something we want users to discover very soon.

Thanks!

-- 
 Bastien


^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 41+ messages in thread

* Matrix (was Re: IM dev discussions?)
  2022-09-22 15:52                         ` IM dev discussions? Bastien
@ 2022-09-22 23:07                           ` Tim Cross
  2022-09-23  2:38                             ` Ihor Radchenko
  2022-09-23  6:47                             ` Bastien
  2022-09-23  2:35                           ` IM dev discussions? Ihor Radchenko
  1 sibling, 2 replies; 41+ messages in thread
From: Tim Cross @ 2022-09-22 23:07 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: emacs-orgmode


Bastien <bzg@gnu.org> writes:

> Hi Ihor,
>
> Ihor Radchenko <yantar92@gmail.com> writes:
>
>> This is an option. #emacs is very too noisy for me, but #org-mode
>> appears to be fairly quiet. It may work.
>
> I agree with Russell that we should first use the available resources,
> and our IRC chan on irc.libera.chat is a good one.
>
> (I'm actually there BTW, lurking - you can ping me anytime as I can
> read past messages, thanks to being connected with my sr.ht account.)
>
> But IMO there is an even stronger argument: in the case of Org, we
> should encourage discussions where both "users" and "developers" can
> chime in.  Because many Org users are potential contributors.  (This
> would not be the same with another Free Software project, of course.)
>
> If #org-mode can serve for both general questions and dev-oriented
> discussion it's good.  If it becomes annoying for many readers, then
> setting up transient chans is okay (even on matrix), the same way it
> is okay to sit in a room and hack/discuss possible new Org features
> with peers.
>
> In general, Org contributors with push access can fix bugs directly,
> without announcing this on the mailing list.  But *all other changes*
> should be submitted and discussed on this mailing list.

Just wondering what the better approach is these days. I've not used IRC
much for a long, long time. I see discussions about matrix and believe
there is an Emacs matrix package as well as matrix to IRC bridges.

One thing I do find frustrating these days is the fracturing of
communications across so many different solutions. Makes me really miss
newsgroups! It seems like almost every project I'm interested in these
days is using a different solution for IM. (one reason I stopped using
IRC was because most of the projects I was interested in stopped using
it or the majority of interesting discussions moved to some other platform).

To avoid a proliferation of IM apps, I get the impression you could use
Matrix and get access to many different messaging environments. Is this
correct and is the Emacs matrix client mature/stable?


^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 41+ messages in thread

* Re: IM dev discussions?
  2022-09-22 15:52                         ` IM dev discussions? Bastien
  2022-09-22 23:07                           ` Matrix (was Re: IM dev discussions?) Tim Cross
@ 2022-09-23  2:35                           ` Ihor Radchenko
  2022-09-23  6:39                             ` Bastien
  1 sibling, 1 reply; 41+ messages in thread
From: Ihor Radchenko @ 2022-09-23  2:35 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Bastien; +Cc: Russell Adams, emacs-orgmode

Bastien <bzg@gnu.org> writes:

> But IMO there is an even stronger argument: in the case of Org, we
> should encourage discussions where both "users" and "developers" can
> chime in.  Because many Org users are potential contributors.  (This
> would not be the same with another Free Software project, of course.)

Indeed. IM is mostly meant for quick brainstorming, which cannot be
done in a reasonable time frame on ML. It worked quite nicely in
communication between me and TEC.

> If #org-mode can serve for both general questions and dev-oriented
> discussion it's good.  If it becomes annoying for many readers, then
> setting up transient chans is okay (even on matrix), the same way it
> is okay to sit in a room and hack/discuss possible new Org features
> with peers.

Agree.

> In general, Org contributors with push access can fix bugs directly,
> without announcing this on the mailing list.  But *all other changes*
> should be submitted and discussed on this mailing list.

Sure. It is always nice to have historical records on why certain
decisions have been made.

-- 
Ihor Radchenko,
Org mode contributor,
Learn more about Org mode at https://orgmode.org/.
Support Org development at https://liberapay.com/org-mode,
or support my work at https://liberapay.com/yantar92


^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 41+ messages in thread

* Re: Matrix (was Re: IM dev discussions?)
  2022-09-22 23:07                           ` Matrix (was Re: IM dev discussions?) Tim Cross
@ 2022-09-23  2:38                             ` Ihor Radchenko
  2022-09-23  2:53                               ` Tim Cross
  2022-09-23  6:47                             ` Bastien
  1 sibling, 1 reply; 41+ messages in thread
From: Ihor Radchenko @ 2022-09-23  2:38 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Tim Cross; +Cc: emacs-orgmode

Tim Cross <theophilusx@gmail.com> writes:

> One thing I do find frustrating these days is the fracturing of
> communications across so many different solutions. Makes me really miss
> newsgroups! It seems like almost every project I'm interested in these
> days is using a different solution for IM. (one reason I stopped using
> IRC was because most of the projects I was interested in stopped using
> it or the majority of interesting discussions moved to some other platform).

There are also bridges from * to IRC. See
https://web.archive.org/web/20220607072519/https://200ok.ch/posts/2019-11-01_irc_and_emacs_all_the_things.html
https://wiki.bitlbee.org/

> To avoid a proliferation of IM apps, I get the impression you could use
> Matrix and get access to many different messaging environments. Is this
> correct and is the Emacs matrix client mature/stable?

Emacs matrix client is ement.el developed by @alphapapa. It has been
recently released on GNU ELPA. So, you can see it as stable enough.

However, Matrix protocol itself is not yet stable. Something to keep in
mind.

-- 
Ihor Radchenko,
Org mode contributor,
Learn more about Org mode at https://orgmode.org/.
Support Org development at https://liberapay.com/org-mode,
or support my work at https://liberapay.com/yantar92


^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 41+ messages in thread

* Re: orgmode.org welcome page says to install via MELPA but as writing, this cannot be done
  2022-09-22 14:43           ` orgmode.org welcome page says to install via MELPA but as writing, this cannot be done Bastien
@ 2022-09-23  2:40             ` Ihor Radchenko
  2022-09-23  6:31               ` Bastien
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 41+ messages in thread
From: Ihor Radchenko @ 2022-09-23  2:40 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Bastien; +Cc: Timothy, emacs-orgmode

Bastien <bzg@gnu.org> writes:

> Would it be okay to
>
> 1. replace both "report bug" and "feedback" buttons by a "feedback"
>    button, pointing to manual https://orgmode.org/manual/Feedback.html ?

I feel like it is good idea to keep both "report bug" and "feedback"
buttons, even if they point to the same link. "report bug" is not always
associated with "feedback". Having both links may be easier for users to
navigate where they are aiming to.

-- 
Ihor Radchenko,
Org mode contributor,
Learn more about Org mode at https://orgmode.org/.
Support Org development at https://liberapay.com/org-mode,
or support my work at https://liberapay.com/yantar92


^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 41+ messages in thread

* Re: Matrix (was Re: IM dev discussions?)
  2022-09-23  2:38                             ` Ihor Radchenko
@ 2022-09-23  2:53                               ` Tim Cross
  0 siblings, 0 replies; 41+ messages in thread
From: Tim Cross @ 2022-09-23  2:53 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Ihor Radchenko; +Cc: emacs-orgmode


Ihor Radchenko <yantar92@gmail.com> writes:

> Tim Cross <theophilusx@gmail.com> writes:
>
>> One thing I do find frustrating these days is the fracturing of
>> communications across so many different solutions. Makes me really miss
>> newsgroups! It seems like almost every project I'm interested in these
>> days is using a different solution for IM. (one reason I stopped using
>> IRC was because most of the projects I was interested in stopped using
>> it or the majority of interesting discussions moved to some other platform).
>
> There are also bridges from * to IRC. See
> https://web.archive.org/web/20220607072519/https://200ok.ch/posts/2019-11-01_irc_and_emacs_all_the_things.html
> https://wiki.bitlbee.org/
>
>> To avoid a proliferation of IM apps, I get the impression you could use
>> Matrix and get access to many different messaging environments. Is this
>> correct and is the Emacs matrix client mature/stable?
>
> Emacs matrix client is ement.el developed by @alphapapa. It has been
> recently released on GNU ELPA. So, you can see it as stable enough.
>
> However, Matrix protocol itself is not yet stable. Something to keep in
> mind.


OK, thanks. Will check out those links.....


^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 41+ messages in thread

* Re: orgmode.org welcome page says to install via MELPA but as writing, this cannot be done
  2022-09-23  2:40             ` Ihor Radchenko
@ 2022-09-23  6:31               ` Bastien
  0 siblings, 0 replies; 41+ messages in thread
From: Bastien @ 2022-09-23  6:31 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Ihor Radchenko; +Cc: Timothy, emacs-orgmode

Ihor Radchenko <yantar92@gmail.com> writes:

> Bastien <bzg@gnu.org> writes:
>
>> Would it be okay to
>>
>> 1. replace both "report bug" and "feedback" buttons by a "feedback"
>>    button, pointing to manual https://orgmode.org/manual/Feedback.html ?
>
> I feel like it is good idea to keep both "report bug" and "feedback"
> buttons, even if they point to the same link. 

Done.

I'd also argue that a button with a link to
https://git.savannah.gnu.org/cgit/emacs/org-mode.git/ would be good.

Timothy, what do you think?

Would you be able to provide a svg associated with the idea of "source
code" (or browsing the source code)?

-- 
 Bastien


^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 41+ messages in thread

* Re: IM dev discussions?
  2022-09-23  2:35                           ` IM dev discussions? Ihor Radchenko
@ 2022-09-23  6:39                             ` Bastien
  2022-09-23 10:10                               ` Ihor Radchenko
  2022-09-24  1:44                               ` Tim Cross
  0 siblings, 2 replies; 41+ messages in thread
From: Bastien @ 2022-09-23  6:39 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Ihor Radchenko; +Cc: Russell Adams, emacs-orgmode

Thanks for your answers.

Ihor Radchenko <yantar92@gmail.com> writes:

>> In general, Org contributors with push access can fix bugs directly,
>> without announcing this on the mailing list.  But *all other changes*
>> should be submitted and discussed on this mailing list.
>
> Sure. It is always nice to have historical records on why certain
> decisions have been made.

It is not just to be able to keep track of discussions that led to
decisions: it is also to be able to be as *inclusive* as possible.

Of course, time and skills (and other psychological traits) are the
main parameters deciding whether someone can participate to these
discussions: but the more they take place on the mailing list, the
more inclusive they are IMHO.

(I know this opinion is debatable: most <30yo (<35yo) hackers out
there will say that relying on a mailing list for such discussions
wards them off, insisting we should go on GitHub... but *anyone* can
send an email to a list, while only registered GitHub users can open
an issue. We certainly don't want to encourage anyone to register on
GitHub.)

-- 
 Bastien


^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 41+ messages in thread

* Re: Matrix (was Re: IM dev discussions?)
  2022-09-22 23:07                           ` Matrix (was Re: IM dev discussions?) Tim Cross
  2022-09-23  2:38                             ` Ihor Radchenko
@ 2022-09-23  6:47                             ` Bastien
  1 sibling, 0 replies; 41+ messages in thread
From: Bastien @ 2022-09-23  6:47 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Tim Cross; +Cc: emacs-orgmode

Tim Cross <theophilusx@gmail.com> writes:

> One thing I do find frustrating these days is the fracturing of
> communications across so many different solutions.

+100.  

I believe this is real plague for the Free Software movement.

Many projects use Slack, Discord, other unfair services or private IM
applications for "collaboration", while pretending to be inclusive by
just throwing a code of conduct.

I cannot predict the future but I sure hope mailing lists and IRC will
keep being functional for another 50 years (for emails) and 35 years
(for IRC).

I'm glad we have https://list.orgmode.org (thanks to Eric Wong's
https://public-inbox.org/README.html and Kyle's servers) and that
people at SourceHut are putting efforts in making IRC more usable:

https://sourcehut.org/blog/2021-11-29-announcing-the-chat.sr.ht-public-beta/

-- 
 Bastien


^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 41+ messages in thread

* Re: IM dev discussions?
  2022-09-23  6:39                             ` Bastien
@ 2022-09-23 10:10                               ` Ihor Radchenko
  2022-09-24  1:44                               ` Tim Cross
  1 sibling, 0 replies; 41+ messages in thread
From: Ihor Radchenko @ 2022-09-23 10:10 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Bastien; +Cc: Russell Adams, emacs-orgmode

Bastien <bzg@gnu.org> writes:

>> Sure. It is always nice to have historical records on why certain
>> decisions have been made.
>
> It is not just to be able to keep track of discussions that led to
> decisions: it is also to be able to be as *inclusive* as possible.
>
> Of course, time and skills (and other psychological traits) are the
> main parameters deciding whether someone can participate to these
> discussions: but the more they take place on the mailing list, the
> more inclusive they are IMHO.
>
> (I know this opinion is debatable: most <30yo (<35yo) hackers out
> there will say that relying on a mailing list for such discussions
> wards them off, insisting we should go on GitHub... but *anyone* can
> send an email to a list, while only registered GitHub users can open
> an issue. We certainly don't want to encourage anyone to register on
> GitHub.)

I do agree that email is the most accessible option from technical
perspective.

However, something being accessible _technically_ does not mean that it
is accessible psychologically. People used to GitHub workflows will be
(and are) reluctant to use email. Not because they can't, but simply
because it requires stepping aside the developed habits (yes, it is how
GitHub and other social platforms catch us [1]).

Familiarity is important. It does not matter if the discussion is done
via mailing list or any other means under the hood. People just want
familiar navigation and front-end logic. Ideally, it would be nice to
have ML front-end that looks similar to GitHub issues. I recall the
latest versions of mailman had somewhat familiar look. Sourcehut is also
trying to implement a web-based front-end (though is it not familiar at
all, unfortunately).

Note that the opposite to the above is not true. We should not prefer
familiar front-ends at the cost of sacrificing technical accessibility.

[1] https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/40672036-digital-minimalism

-- 
Ihor Radchenko,
Org mode contributor,
Learn more about Org mode at https://orgmode.org/.
Support Org development at https://liberapay.com/org-mode,
or support my work at https://liberapay.com/yantar92


^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 41+ messages in thread

* Re: orgmode.org welcome page says to install via MELPA but as writing, this cannot be done
  2022-09-22 17:23             ` Bastien
@ 2022-09-23 16:55               ` Max Nikulin
  2022-09-23 16:59                 ` Timothy
  2022-09-24  6:48                 ` Bastien
  0 siblings, 2 replies; 41+ messages in thread
From: Max Nikulin @ 2022-09-23 16:55 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: emacs-orgmode

On 23/09/2022 00:23, Bastien wrote:
> Max Nikulin writes:
> 
>> The updated page has
>>
>>      alt="Install from ELPA"
>>
>> that likely should be "Install from GNU ELPA".
> 
> Fixed, thanks.
> 
>> However Firefox does not show tooltips (unlike for the Librepay link)
>> when mouse cursor is over new SVG images. I have no idea if
>> screenreaders will use value of the alt attributes.
> 
> I added title="" properties.

"Install from ELPA" without "GNU".

>> I expect that some fraction of messages at this list will have "[BUG]
>> <short description>" subject literally. Perhaps "&body=..." may be
>> added with a template like "Org version: ___, Emacs version: ___" with
>> a note requesting subject more specific to the particular
>> problem. Some people still will not read it.
> 
> Agreed -- I removed this mailto: link as suggestion in a previous
> reply to Tim...

I am not against mailto: link, my intention was to improve message template.

>> An unrelated to the latest changes question. What is the supposed way
>> to reach https://orgmode.org/manual/Feedback.html from site main page
>> (to become aware of M-x `org-submit-bug-report'?
> 
> ... and placed the https://orgmode.org/manual/Feedback.html link as
> the target of the "feedback" svg icon.
> 
> I also added the M-x org-submit-bug-report RET exlpicitely, as it is
> something we want users to discover very soon.

My impression is that this change is against Timothy's attempt to make 
the top banner cleaner. I would consider adding a paragraph with 
org-submit-bug-reports and Feedback.html link close to the "Joining the 
mailing list" section and would make "report bug" badge leading to this 
paragraph. "Feedback" badge link may point to "Joining the mailing list".




^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 41+ messages in thread

* Re: orgmode.org welcome page says to install via MELPA but as writing, this cannot be done
  2022-09-23 16:55               ` Max Nikulin
@ 2022-09-23 16:59                 ` Timothy
  2022-09-24  3:16                   ` Ihor Radchenko
  2022-09-24  7:00                   ` Bastien
  2022-09-24  6:48                 ` Bastien
  1 sibling, 2 replies; 41+ messages in thread
From: Timothy @ 2022-09-23 16:59 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: emacs-orgmode; +Cc: emacs-orgmode

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1147 bytes --]

Hi Max,

>> Agreed – I removed this mailto: link as suggestion in a previous
>> reply to Tim…
>
> I am not against mailto: link, my intention was to improve message template.

Looking at <https://orgmode.org/manual/Feedback.html>, that seems like it’s much
better than just a mailto link or `M-x org-submit-bug-report RET' as it gives some
(IMO, rather crucial) surrounding information/instructions.

I think we’d want people to see this, and so I’d actually be inclined to make
the “bug report” button link to this page, and the feedback button just be a
`mailto:' link.

> My impression is that this change is against Timothy’s attempt to make the top
> banner cleaner.

For what it’s worth, I personally consider stuffing lines of “important!” text
into that “what is Org?” banner ultimately counterproductive. I think it fails
to provide the information with enough context (e.g. `M-x org-submit-bug-report
RET' doesn’t provide the information provided on the Feedback.html page), and it
also muddies the structure of the page while making it appear more cluttered.

All the best,
Timothy

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 41+ messages in thread

* Re: IM dev discussions?
  2022-09-23  6:39                             ` Bastien
  2022-09-23 10:10                               ` Ihor Radchenko
@ 2022-09-24  1:44                               ` Tim Cross
  2022-09-24  2:12                                 ` Timothy
                                                   ` (2 more replies)
  1 sibling, 3 replies; 41+ messages in thread
From: Tim Cross @ 2022-09-24  1:44 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: emacs-orgmode


Bastien <bzg@gnu.org> writes:

> Of course, time and skills (and other psychological traits) are the
> main parameters deciding whether someone can participate to these
> discussions: but the more they take place on the mailing list, the
> more inclusive they are IMHO.
>
> (I know this opinion is debatable: most <30yo (<35yo) hackers out
> there will say that relying on a mailing list for such discussions
> wards them off, insisting we should go on GitHub... but *anyone* can
> send an email to a list, while only registered GitHub users can open
> an issue. We certainly don't want to encourage anyone to register on
> GitHub.)

I observe the same behaviour. My kids (27, 24) both have email accounts,
but only have them and use them for places which insist on an email
address (like government services, universities etc). They use email
only when they have to and check it only when they are expecting a
message. For them, it is IM services (even there, the ones used will
also depend on your age within the <30 - seems to be a trend from FB
messenger, snapchat, discord, whatsapp, tiktok - and even there FB
messenger is probably just to IM with their parents!). From their
perspective, FB is what their parents use and email is what their
grandparents use! No way will they use a mail list.

Of course there are exceptions. You will likely find more young people
who use Emacs and org will also use email more, but I don't know if that
is because the types of people attracted to Emacs and org mode are also
the types of people more attracted to email for comms.

These days, when I want interactive chat, I actually prefer to go with
real chat rather than text based chat. There are so many choices for
voice chat these days, you may as well have real interaction and just
talk! This is where the technology really blows my mind now. A little
while ago, I was collaborating with someone where we were talking using
a voice chat app. It was a bug squashing collaboration where we worked
through a bunch of bugs together and got a heap fixed in a 2 hours
intensive session. I was in Australia and they were in South America AND
travelling on a bus! While there was a couple of instances where we lost
voice comms briefly, it was remarkably successful and it still blows my
mind that I was live coding with someone half way around the world,
travelling on a bus while we coded and chatted in real time! 30 years
ago, we would both need to be in stable locations with land-lines and
IRC would be the most interaction we could hope for - voice definitely
not! 


^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 41+ messages in thread

* Re: IM dev discussions?
  2022-09-24  1:44                               ` Tim Cross
@ 2022-09-24  2:12                                 ` Timothy
  2022-09-24  6:56                                   ` Ihor Radchenko
  2022-09-24  3:11                                 ` Mark Barton
  2022-09-24 13:26                                 ` Jean Louis
  2 siblings, 1 reply; 41+ messages in thread
From: Timothy @ 2022-09-24  2:12 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: emacs-orgmode; +Cc: emacs-orgmode

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 3354 bytes --]

Hi Tim,

> I observe the same behaviour. My kids (27, 24) both have email accounts,
> but only have them and use them for places which insist on an email
> address (like government services, universities etc). They use email
> only when they have to and check it only when they are expecting a
> message. For them, it is IM services (even there, the ones used will
> also depend on your age within the <30 - seems to be a trend from FB
> messenger, snapchat, discord, whatsapp, tiktok - and even there FB
> messenger is probably just to IM with their parents!). From their
> perspective, FB is what their parents use and email is what their
> grandparents use! No way will they use a mail list.
>
> Of course there are exceptions. You will likely find more young people
> who use Emacs and org will also use email more, but I don’t know if that
> is because the types of people attracted to Emacs and org mode are also
> the types of people more attracted to email for comms.
>
> These days, when I want interactive chat, I actually prefer to go with
> real chat rather than text based chat. There are so many choices for
> voice chat these days, you may as well have real interaction and just
> talk! This is where the technology really blows my mind now. A little
> while ago, I was collaborating with someone where we were talking using
> a voice chat app. It was a bug squashing collaboration where we worked
> through a bunch of bugs together and got a heap fixed in a 2 hours
> intensive session. I was in Australia and they were in South America AND
> travelling on a bus! While there was a couple of instances where we lost
> voice comms briefly, it was remarkably successful and it still blows my
> mind that I was live coding with someone half way around the world,
> travelling on a bus while we coded and chatted in real time! 30 years
> ago, we would both need to be in stable locations with land-lines and
> IRC would be the most interaction we could hope for - voice definitely
> not!

I find that very interesting to hear. It reminds me that the bcachefs matrix
room (which I hang out in),which has a Jitsi widget. Over there it seems that
occasionally the lead developer and the main other contributor seem to hang out
there while working on the project.

Doing something similar for Org development is an interesting idea. Something
similar probably could be set up with the Org room, or a dedicated Org-dev room
(I’m aware of Bastien’s thoughts on wanting development and help to not be
separated, but while I like the idea of them living in the same space, I’m
personally a big fan of categorisation. For instance, we could make an org-mode
space with a few different rooms: org-dev, org-help, org-showcase, org-chat,
etc.).

With regards to accessibility, I think Matrix is also reaching a rather good
point. The current state of affairs includes an Emacs client, a host of
dedicated apps, in-browser web clients, and more. While the ability to peruse
archives has not yet been developed, it is also possible to copy a link to a
particular message, and so a conversation can be transferred from Matrix to the
ML with a link to the initial conversation, e.g.
<https://matrix.to/#/!rUhEinythPhVTdddsb:matrix.org/$1663983705132172ICPRd:matrix.org>

All the best,
Timothy

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 41+ messages in thread

* Re: IM dev discussions?
  2022-09-24  1:44                               ` Tim Cross
  2022-09-24  2:12                                 ` Timothy
@ 2022-09-24  3:11                                 ` Mark Barton
  2022-09-24  7:02                                   ` Ihor Radchenko
  2022-09-24 13:26                                 ` Jean Louis
  2 siblings, 1 reply; 41+ messages in thread
From: Mark Barton @ 2022-09-24  3:11 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Tim Cross; +Cc: emacs-orgmode

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1029 bytes --]



> On Sep 23, 2022, at 6:44 PM, Tim Cross <theophilusx@gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> You will likely find more young people
> who use Emacs and org will also use email more, but I don't know if that
> is because the types of people attracted to Emacs and org mode are also
> the types of people more attracted to email for comms.


My trend has been moving from GUI to the benefit that text based solutions provide: reproducibility, version control, and documentation. 
In my case, email is much easier to extract into my task management system than most IM type solutions. IM is good for short conversations, but really has a problem with organizing more historic data that may be needed for much tougher topics that cannot be answered in a single session. Slack threads really drive me crazy, because I have a hard time finding them again after a day or so. This is where I use DEVONthink to associate different forms of data into the related projects and use DEVONthink links in org mode for my notes and task management.

[-- Attachment #2: Type: text/html, Size: 4022 bytes --]

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 41+ messages in thread

* Re: orgmode.org welcome page says to install via MELPA but as writing, this cannot be done
  2022-09-23 16:59                 ` Timothy
@ 2022-09-24  3:16                   ` Ihor Radchenko
  2022-09-24  7:00                   ` Bastien
  1 sibling, 0 replies; 41+ messages in thread
From: Ihor Radchenko @ 2022-09-24  3:16 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Timothy; +Cc: emacs-orgmode

Timothy <orgmode@tec.tecosaur.net> writes:

>> My impression is that this change is against Timothy’s attempt to make the top
>> banner cleaner.
>
> For what it’s worth, I personally consider stuffing lines of “important!” text
> into that “what is Org?” banner ultimately counterproductive. I think it fails
> to provide the information with enough context (e.g. `M-x org-submit-bug-report
> RET' doesn’t provide the information provided on the Feedback.html page), and it
> also muddies the structure of the page while making it appear more cluttered.

I am slightly in favour of reducing the clutter.

Also, Bastien mentioned (AFAIU) an idea to have a badge for source
code. Maybe instead of git clone? I was previously reluctant to use
savannah link instead of copy-pasteable "git clone ..." text, but I now
notice that https://git.savannah.gnu.org/cgit/emacs/org-mode.git/ works
with git clone and the page even lists tarballs for the Org releases.

So, we may create a badge with an icon representing src code (maybe
"</> | source code"?) that will point to
https://git.savannah.gnu.org/cgit/emacs/org-mode.git/

-- 
Ihor Radchenko,
Org mode contributor,
Learn more about Org mode at https://orgmode.org/.
Support Org development at https://liberapay.com/org-mode,
or support my work at https://liberapay.com/yantar92


^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 41+ messages in thread

* Re: orgmode.org welcome page says to install via MELPA but as writing, this cannot be done
  2022-09-23 16:55               ` Max Nikulin
  2022-09-23 16:59                 ` Timothy
@ 2022-09-24  6:48                 ` Bastien
  1 sibling, 0 replies; 41+ messages in thread
From: Bastien @ 2022-09-24  6:48 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Max Nikulin; +Cc: emacs-orgmode

Hi Max,

Max Nikulin <manikulin@gmail.com> writes:

> "Install from ELPA" without "GNU".

Fixed, thanks.

-- 
 Bastien


^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 41+ messages in thread

* Re: IM dev discussions?
  2022-09-24  2:12                                 ` Timothy
@ 2022-09-24  6:56                                   ` Ihor Radchenko
  0 siblings, 0 replies; 41+ messages in thread
From: Ihor Radchenko @ 2022-09-24  6:56 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Timothy; +Cc: emacs-orgmode

Timothy <orgmode@tec.tecosaur.net> writes:

> I find that very interesting to hear. It reminds me that the bcachefs matrix
> room (which I hang out in),which has a Jitsi widget. Over there it seems that
> occasionally the lead developer and the main other contributor seem to hang out
> there while working on the project.
>
> Doing something similar for Org development is an interesting idea. Something
> similar probably could be set up with the Org room, or a dedicated Org-dev room

This may be interesting, but it requires at least two participants to
get the discussion going.

> (I’m aware of Bastien’s thoughts on wanting development and help to not be
> separated, but while I like the idea of them living in the same space, I’m
> personally a big fan of categorisation. For instance, we could make an org-mode
> space with a few different rooms: org-dev, org-help, org-showcase, org-chat,
> etc.).

Is there is possibility to merge multiple rooms in Matrix/IRC?

-- 
Ihor Radchenko,
Org mode contributor,
Learn more about Org mode at https://orgmode.org/.
Support Org development at https://liberapay.com/org-mode,
or support my work at https://liberapay.com/yantar92


^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 41+ messages in thread

* Re: orgmode.org welcome page says to install via MELPA but as writing, this cannot be done
  2022-09-23 16:59                 ` Timothy
  2022-09-24  3:16                   ` Ihor Radchenko
@ 2022-09-24  7:00                   ` Bastien
  2022-09-24  7:04                     ` Timothy
  1 sibling, 1 reply; 41+ messages in thread
From: Bastien @ 2022-09-24  7:00 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Timothy; +Cc: emacs-orgmode

Hi Timothy,

Timothy <orgmode@tec.tecosaur.net> writes:

> I think we’d want people to see this, and so I’d actually be inclined to make
> the “bug report” button link to this page, and the feedback button just be a
> `mailto:' link.

Done!

> For what it’s worth, I personally consider stuffing lines of “important!” text
> into that “what is Org?” banner ultimately counterproductive. I think it fails
> to provide the information with enough context (e.g. `M-x org-submit-bug-report
> RET' doesn’t provide the information provided on the Feedback.html page), and it
> also muddies the structure of the page while making it appear more cluttered.

IMHO if someone with UX/UI experience can/wants to interview real Org
newcomers, that will help us a lot for deciding about such tiny changes.

Best,

-- 
 Bastien


^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 41+ messages in thread

* Re: IM dev discussions?
  2022-09-24  3:11                                 ` Mark Barton
@ 2022-09-24  7:02                                   ` Ihor Radchenko
  0 siblings, 0 replies; 41+ messages in thread
From: Ihor Radchenko @ 2022-09-24  7:02 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Mark Barton; +Cc: Tim Cross, emacs-orgmode

Mark Barton <mbarton98@gmail.com> writes:

>> You will likely find more young people
>> who use Emacs and org will also use email more, but I don't know if that
>> is because the types of people attracted to Emacs and org mode are also
>> the types of people more attracted to email for comms.
>
>
> My trend has been moving from GUI to the benefit that text based solutions provide: reproducibility, version control, and documentation. 
> In my case, email is much easier to extract into my task management system than most IM type solutions. IM is good for short conversations, but really has a problem with organizing more historic data that may be needed for much tougher topics that cannot be answered in a single session. Slack threads really drive me crazy, because I have a hard time finding them again after a day or so. This is where I use DEVONthink to associate different forms of data into the related projects and use DEVONthink links in org mode for my notes and task management.

Come on. We are talking about Org mode and Emacs.
Just load ol-irc.el and enjoy links to past conversations ;)
Matrix client for Org will likely have Org link support in future as
well.

And yes, you can bridge Slack to IRC/Matrix.

-- 
Ihor Radchenko,
Org mode contributor,
Learn more about Org mode at https://orgmode.org/.
Support Org development at https://liberapay.com/org-mode,
or support my work at https://liberapay.com/yantar92


^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 41+ messages in thread

* Re: orgmode.org welcome page says to install via MELPA but as writing, this cannot be done
  2022-09-24  7:00                   ` Bastien
@ 2022-09-24  7:04                     ` Timothy
  0 siblings, 0 replies; 41+ messages in thread
From: Timothy @ 2022-09-24  7:04 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: emacs-orgmode; +Cc: Timothy, emacs-orgmode

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 912 bytes --]

Hi Bastien,

> IMHO if someone with UX/UI experience can/wants to interview real Org
> newcomers, that will help us a lot for deciding about such tiny changes.

Unfortunately, it can be quite hard to find such people on the ML etc. (funny
about that 😛).

For what it’s worth, when doing the original website re-design I went to some
effort to get the thoughts of people who don’t use Org to make sure it did a
decent job communicating the essentials.

With regards to the current banner, I’m inclined to remove the report bug text:
having that as well as the badge-link is simply confusing, and the badge-link to
the feedback page is better.

We can also add a source code badge using the git icon and linking to
<https://git.savannah.gnu.org/cgit/emacs/org-mode.git/>, and I’d then be inclined
to remove the “Repository …” text for similar reasons.

All the best,
Timothy

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 41+ messages in thread

* Re: IM dev discussions? (was: orgmode.org welcome page says to install via MELPA but as writing, this cannot be done)
  2022-09-21  8:05                 ` Ihor Radchenko
  2022-09-21  8:59                   ` Russell Adams
@ 2022-09-24 13:22                   ` Jean Louis
  2022-09-25  3:36                     ` Ihor Radchenko
  1 sibling, 1 reply; 41+ messages in thread
From: Jean Louis @ 2022-09-24 13:22 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Ihor Radchenko; +Cc: Russell Adams, emacs-orgmode

* Ihor Radchenko <yantar92@gmail.com> [2022-09-21 11:15]:
> The disadvantage of IRC is absence of message history.
> Without history, small-sized channels like I am proposing (dedicated to
> Org mode devs) are not very useful. We live in different time zones and
> countries.

From Org master view point, every message shall be
referencable to be usable for future as part of the knowledge
base.

E-mails are very referencable, and mailing list too.

For IRC, there are ways to record history, and I am sure that
such history may be recorded with referencable hyperlinks.

Look at this example from Guix IRC channel:
https://logs.guix.gnu.org/

It is irrelevant and also natural that we are in different
time zones and countries. System administrator may decide the
reference time zone.

-- 
Jean

Take action in Free Software Foundation campaigns:
https://www.fsf.org/campaigns

In support of Richard M. Stallman
https://stallmansupport.org/


^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 41+ messages in thread

* Re: IM dev discussions?
  2022-09-24  1:44                               ` Tim Cross
  2022-09-24  2:12                                 ` Timothy
  2022-09-24  3:11                                 ` Mark Barton
@ 2022-09-24 13:26                                 ` Jean Louis
  2 siblings, 0 replies; 41+ messages in thread
From: Jean Louis @ 2022-09-24 13:26 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Tim Cross; +Cc: emacs-orgmode

* Tim Cross <theophilusx@gmail.com> [2022-09-24 05:10]:
> messenger is probably just to IM with their parents!). From their
> perspective, FB is what their parents use and email is what their
> grandparents use! No way will they use a mail list.

That may be the trend within a generation.

Though there are interest groups and when interest is high
enough, people will open email to enter into the group.

That was the reason to open up those other communication lines
- the interest.

-- 
Jean

Take action in Free Software Foundation campaigns:
https://www.fsf.org/campaigns

In support of Richard M. Stallman
https://stallmansupport.org/


^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 41+ messages in thread

* Re: IM dev discussions? (was: orgmode.org welcome page says to install via MELPA but as writing, this cannot be done)
  2022-09-24 13:22                   ` IM dev discussions? (was: orgmode.org welcome page says to install via MELPA but as writing, this cannot be done) Jean Louis
@ 2022-09-25  3:36                     ` Ihor Radchenko
  2022-09-25  4:21                       ` Timothy
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 41+ messages in thread
From: Ihor Radchenko @ 2022-09-25  3:36 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Jean Louis; +Cc: Russell Adams, emacs-orgmode

Jean Louis <bugs@gnu.support> writes:

> For IRC, there are ways to record history, and I am sure that
> such history may be recorded with referencable hyperlinks.
>
> Look at this example from Guix IRC channel:
> https://logs.guix.gnu.org/

AFAIU, this should be supported by the IRC server. Does irc.libera.chat
(where #org-mode channel is hosted) support logging?

-- 
Ihor Radchenko,
Org mode contributor,
Learn more about Org mode at https://orgmode.org/.
Support Org development at https://liberapay.com/org-mode,
or support my work at https://liberapay.com/yantar92


^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 41+ messages in thread

* Re: IM dev discussions? (was: orgmode.org welcome page says to install via MELPA but as writing, this cannot be done)
  2022-09-25  3:36                     ` Ihor Radchenko
@ 2022-09-25  4:21                       ` Timothy
  0 siblings, 0 replies; 41+ messages in thread
From: Timothy @ 2022-09-25  4:21 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: emacs-orgmode; +Cc: Jean Louis, Russell Adams, emacs-orgmode

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 566 bytes --]

Hi Ihor,

> Jean Louis <bugs@gnu.support> writes:
>
>> For IRC, there are ways to record history, and I am sure that
>> such history may be recorded with referencable hyperlinks.
>>
>> Look at this example from Guix IRC channel:
>> <https://logs.guix.gnu.org/>
>
> AFAIU, this should be supported by the IRC server. Does irc.libera.chat
> (where #org-mode channel is hosted) support logging?

On this note, I’ve recently discovered
<https://github.com/matrix-org/matrix-public-archive> which looks rather promising
to me.

All the best,
Timothy

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 41+ messages in thread

end of thread, other threads:[~2022-09-25  4:26 UTC | newest]

Thread overview: 41+ messages (download: mbox.gz / follow: Atom feed)
-- links below jump to the message on this page --
2022-09-19 22:57 orgmode.org welcome page says to install via MELPA but as writing, this cannot be done David Ventimiglia via General discussions about Org-mode.
2022-09-19 22:59 ` David Ventimiglia via General discussions about Org-mode.
2022-09-20  1:32   ` Bastien
2022-09-20  3:59     ` Ihor Radchenko
2022-09-20  5:36       ` Bastien
2022-09-20  5:41         ` Timothy
2022-09-20  7:50           ` Bastien
2022-09-20  9:22             ` IM dev discussions? (was: orgmode.org welcome page says to install via MELPA but as writing, this cannot be done) Ihor Radchenko
2022-09-20 12:11               ` Russell Adams
2022-09-21  8:05                 ` Ihor Radchenko
2022-09-21  8:59                   ` Russell Adams
2022-09-21 11:04                     ` Russell Adams
2022-09-22 14:13                       ` Ihor Radchenko
2022-09-22 15:52                         ` IM dev discussions? Bastien
2022-09-22 23:07                           ` Matrix (was Re: IM dev discussions?) Tim Cross
2022-09-23  2:38                             ` Ihor Radchenko
2022-09-23  2:53                               ` Tim Cross
2022-09-23  6:47                             ` Bastien
2022-09-23  2:35                           ` IM dev discussions? Ihor Radchenko
2022-09-23  6:39                             ` Bastien
2022-09-23 10:10                               ` Ihor Radchenko
2022-09-24  1:44                               ` Tim Cross
2022-09-24  2:12                                 ` Timothy
2022-09-24  6:56                                   ` Ihor Radchenko
2022-09-24  3:11                                 ` Mark Barton
2022-09-24  7:02                                   ` Ihor Radchenko
2022-09-24 13:26                                 ` Jean Louis
2022-09-24 13:22                   ` IM dev discussions? (was: orgmode.org welcome page says to install via MELPA but as writing, this cannot be done) Jean Louis
2022-09-25  3:36                     ` Ihor Radchenko
2022-09-25  4:21                       ` Timothy
2022-09-22 14:43           ` orgmode.org welcome page says to install via MELPA but as writing, this cannot be done Bastien
2022-09-23  2:40             ` Ihor Radchenko
2022-09-23  6:31               ` Bastien
2022-09-22 15:07           ` Max Nikulin
2022-09-22 17:23             ` Bastien
2022-09-23 16:55               ` Max Nikulin
2022-09-23 16:59                 ` Timothy
2022-09-24  3:16                   ` Ihor Radchenko
2022-09-24  7:00                   ` Bastien
2022-09-24  7:04                     ` Timothy
2022-09-24  6:48                 ` Bastien

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