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* Remove Org from Emacs repository?
@ 2016-12-17 22:43 Reuben Thomas
  2016-12-18  9:22 ` aaermolov
  2016-12-19  1:52 ` Eric Abrahamsen
  0 siblings, 2 replies; 30+ messages in thread
From: Reuben Thomas @ 2016-12-17 22:43 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: emacs-orgmode@gnu.org

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Now that Emacs has had package.el for some years, and Org is installable
directly from GNU ELPA, would it be a good idea to remove Org from Emacs's
source repository?

The current situation is left over from before Emacs had package.el, and I
see no compelling reason to keep it. Org is too big and distinct to be
swallowed by Emacs; it doesn't make much sense to keep its current half-in,
half-out state; so logically it seems sensible to take it out.

I am asking this question from an Org point of view; I will ask the Emacs
maintainers separately for their perspective.

I think it would benefit Emacs too, as there would be less code to maintain
(even though Org is quasi-external at present, it still has to build
successfully as part of an Emacs build), and the Emacs distribution would
be slimmer for non-Org users.

Of course, Emacs "distributions" would still be able to include Org
out-of-the box if they wished.

-- 
http://rrt.sc3d.org

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^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 30+ messages in thread

• * Re: Remove Org from Emacs repository?
    2016-12-17 22:43 Remove Org from Emacs repository? Reuben Thomas
  @ 2016-12-18  9:22 ` aaermolov
    2016-12-18 13:20   ` Carsten Dominik
    2016-12-18 19:21   ` Samuel Wales
    2016-12-19  1:52 ` Eric Abrahamsen
    1 sibling, 2 replies; 30+ messages in thread
  From: aaermolov @ 2016-12-18  9:22 UTC (permalink / raw)
    To: Reuben Thomas, emacs-orgmode@gnu.org
  
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  2 cents from me...
  
  Besides I continuously see many users praising Emacs just for Org
  presence (they even may be completely non-technical users), I'm
  personally think Org may be removed from Emacs distribution because:
  
  1) all Reuben's argument seems sane;
  2) there are situations when someone wants particular version of Org,
     and it may be not tne one bundled with Emacs. In this case someone
     should perform extra steps to ensure things are going the right way.
     When Org will be available only from ELPA, it will be SPOT for such cases.  
  
  Reuben Thomas <rrt@sc3d.org> writes:
  
  > Now that Emacs has had package.el for some years, and Org is installable
  > directly from GNU ELPA, would it be a good idea to remove Org from Emacs's
  > source repository?
  >
  > The current situation is left over from before Emacs had package.el, and I
  > see no compelling reason to keep it. Org is too big and distinct to be
  > swallowed by Emacs; it doesn't make much sense to keep its current half-in,
  > half-out state; so logically it seems sensible to take it out.
  >
  > I am asking this question from an Org point of view; I will ask the Emacs
  > maintainers separately for their perspective.
  >
  > I think it would benefit Emacs too, as there would be less code to maintain
  > (even though Org is quasi-external at present, it still has to build
  > successfully as part of an Emacs build), and the Emacs distribution would
  > be slimmer for non-Org users.
  >
  > Of course, Emacs "distributions" would still be able to include Org
  > out-of-the box if they wished.
  >
  > -- 
  > http://rrt.sc3d.org
  
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  ^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 30+ messages in thread

• • * Re: Remove Org from Emacs repository?
      2016-12-18  9:22 ` aaermolov
    @ 2016-12-18 13:20   ` Carsten Dominik
      2016-12-18 13:59     ` Rasmus
                           ` (4 more replies)
      2016-12-18 19:21   ` Samuel Wales
      1 sibling, 5 replies; 30+ messages in thread
    From: Carsten Dominik @ 2016-12-18 13:20 UTC (permalink / raw)
      To: aaermolov; +Cc: emacs-orgmode@gnu.org, Reuben Thomas
    
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    Dear all,
    
    I'd hate to see Org removed from Emacs.  It took a lot of work to get it
    in, and I believe that the vast majority of Emacs users does not install
    packages.  For a newbie to get to Emacs and to be able to open a .org file
    is a big plus.  So my vote goes toward keeping it in.
    
    Carsten
    
    On Sun, Dec 18, 2016 at 10:22 AM, <aaermolov@gmail.com> wrote:
    
    > 2 cents from me...
    >
    > Besides I continuously see many users praising Emacs just for Org
    > presence (they even may be completely non-technical users), I'm
    > personally think Org may be removed from Emacs distribution because:
    >
    > 1) all Reuben's argument seems sane;
    > 2) there are situations when someone wants particular version of Org,
    >    and it may be not tne one bundled with Emacs. In this case someone
    >    should perform extra steps to ensure things are going the right way.
    >    When Org will be available only from ELPA, it will be SPOT for such
    > cases.
    >
    > Reuben Thomas <rrt@sc3d.org> writes:
    >
    > > Now that Emacs has had package.el for some years, and Org is installable
    > > directly from GNU ELPA, would it be a good idea to remove Org from
    > Emacs's
    > > source repository?
    > >
    > > The current situation is left over from before Emacs had package.el, and
    > I
    > > see no compelling reason to keep it. Org is too big and distinct to be
    > > swallowed by Emacs; it doesn't make much sense to keep its current
    > half-in,
    > > half-out state; so logically it seems sensible to take it out.
    > >
    > > I am asking this question from an Org point of view; I will ask the Emacs
    > > maintainers separately for their perspective.
    > >
    > > I think it would benefit Emacs too, as there would be less code to
    > maintain
    > > (even though Org is quasi-external at present, it still has to build
    > > successfully as part of an Emacs build), and the Emacs distribution would
    > > be slimmer for non-Org users.
    > >
    > > Of course, Emacs "distributions" would still be able to include Org
    > > out-of-the box if they wished.
    > >
    > > --
    > > http://rrt.sc3d.org
    >
    
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    ^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 30+ messages in thread

  • • * Re: Remove Org from Emacs repository?
        2016-12-18 13:20   ` Carsten Dominik
      @ 2016-12-18 13:59     ` Rasmus
        2016-12-18 14:41     ` Greg Troxel
                             ` (3 subsequent siblings)
        4 siblings, 0 replies; 30+ messages in thread
      From: Rasmus @ 2016-12-18 13:59 UTC (permalink / raw)
        To: emacs-orgmode
      
      Carsten Dominik <dominik@uva.nl> writes:
      
      >  So my vote goes toward keeping it in.
      
      1+
      
      -- 
      Tack, ni svenska vakttorn. Med plutonium tvingar vi dansken på knä!
      
      ^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 30+ messages in thread

    • * Re: Remove Org from Emacs repository?
        2016-12-18 13:20   ` Carsten Dominik
        2016-12-18 13:59     ` Rasmus
      @ 2016-12-18 14:41     ` Greg Troxel
        2016-12-18 15:53       ` Kaushal Modi
        2016-12-18 17:01     ` Reuben Thomas
                             ` (2 subsequent siblings)
        4 siblings, 1 reply; 30+ messages in thread
      From: Greg Troxel @ 2016-12-18 14:41 UTC (permalink / raw)
        To: Carsten Dominik; +Cc: emacs-orgmode@gnu.org
      
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      Carsten Dominik <dominik@uva.nl> writes:
      
      > I'd hate to see Org removed from Emacs.  It took a lot of work to get it
      > in, and I believe that the vast majority of Emacs users does not install
      > packages.  For a newbie to get to Emacs and to be able to open a .org file
      > is a big plus.  So my vote goes toward keeping it in.
      
      I agree.  Even though I have compiled org from git at times, and have
      been using emacs since version 16 or 17 in the late 80s (I am fuzzy on
      dates), I have never actually learned the package system.  I also look
      at org files using the built-in emacs on mac, and various other places.
      
      So I think emacs should continue to have a stable version of org, but
      also that it should be relatively easy to install and use a newer
      version from a packaging system.
      
      (It should also be easy to use org from git, but it is; it's just
      prepending to load path and I've been doing that with no issues for
      years.)
      
      
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      ^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 30+ messages in thread

    • • * Re: Remove Org from Emacs repository?
          2016-12-18 14:41     ` Greg Troxel
        @ 2016-12-18 15:53       ` Kaushal Modi
          0 siblings, 0 replies; 30+ messages in thread
        From: Kaushal Modi @ 2016-12-18 15:53 UTC (permalink / raw)
          To: Greg Troxel, Carsten Dominik; +Cc: emacs-org list
        
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        Carsten Dominik <dominik@uva.nl> writes:
        
        >
        > > I'd hate to see Org removed from Emacs.  It took a lot of work to get it
        > > in, and I believe that the vast majority of Emacs users does not install
        > > packages.  For a newbie to get to Emacs and to be able to open a .org
        > file
        > > is a big plus.  So my vote goes toward keeping it in.
        
        
        +1
        
        Even though I build org mode from source, I'd like to keep it packaged with
        emacs too. That way, people who do not want to install any package manually
        can still reap the benefits of org mode.
        
        Org mode is one of the key features and a very unique one to emacs.
        Separating it from emacs would not be good I believe.
        -- 
        
        Kaushal Modi
        
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        ^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 30+ messages in thread

    • * Re: Remove Org from Emacs repository?
        2016-12-18 13:20   ` Carsten Dominik
        2016-12-18 13:59     ` Rasmus
        2016-12-18 14:41     ` Greg Troxel
      @ 2016-12-18 17:01     ` Reuben Thomas
             [not found]       ` <WM!f754fa008f759b442796c83f07a493b80e9d7ae4298a54f3fabf6b50a6e8ba9da1d361e87e441eae1fe9b1deeb824e68!@mailhub-mx3.ncl.ac.uk>
        2016-12-18 17:11     ` Christian Moe
        2016-12-19 18:09     ` Scott Randby
        4 siblings, 1 reply; 30+ messages in thread
      From: Reuben Thomas @ 2016-12-18 17:01 UTC (permalink / raw)
        To: Carsten Dominik; +Cc: emacs-orgmode@gnu.org, aaermolov
      
      [-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1079 bytes --]
      
      On 18 December 2016 at 13:20, Carsten Dominik <dominik@uva.nl> wrote:
      
      > Dear all,
      >
      > I'd hate to see Org removed from Emacs.  It took a lot of work to get it
      > in, and I believe that the vast majority of Emacs users does not install
      > packages.  For a newbie to get to Emacs and to be able to open a .org file
      > is a big plus.  So my vote goes toward keeping it in.
      >
      
      ​Since you're responsible for org-mode, and I guess you're happy with the
      coordination between (your) upstream and Emacs, then ​I agree it should
      continue to be distributed out of the box.
      
      However, your comments raise a couple of thoughts:
      
      1. Is there something hard about packages that could be made easier? For
      example, Atom seems to get along fine without many built-in packages, so
      that most users expect to install some.
      
      2. Is there any possibility to make org-mode a build-time dependency of
      Emacs, like the C libraries that it requires, or is that a silly idea? That
      could permit it to be shipped as built-in, without having its source
      duplicated in Emacs's repository.
      
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      ^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 30+ messages in thread

    • • [parent not found: <WM!f754fa008f759b442796c83f07a493b80e9d7ae4298a54f3fabf6b50a6e8ba9da1d361e87e441eae1fe9b1deeb824e68!@mailhub-mx3.ncl.ac.uk>]

      • • * Re: Remove Org from Emacs repository?
                 [not found]       ` <WM!f754fa008f759b442796c83f07a493b80e9d7ae4298a54f3fabf6b50a6e8ba9da1d361e87e441eae1fe9b1deeb824e68!@mailhub-mx3.ncl.ac.uk>
          @ 2016-12-19 15:32         ` Phillip Lord
            2016-12-19 15:45           ` Reuben Thomas
            0 siblings, 1 reply; 30+ messages in thread
          From: Phillip Lord @ 2016-12-19 15:32 UTC (permalink / raw)
            To: Reuben Thomas; +Cc: Carsten Dominik, emacs-orgmode@gnu.org, aaermolov
          
          Reuben Thomas <rrt@sc3d.org> writes:
          
          > On 18 December 2016 at 13:20, Carsten Dominik <dominik@uva.nl> wrote:
          >
          >> Dear all,
          >>
          >> I'd hate to see Org removed from Emacs.  It took a lot of work to get it
          >> in, and I believe that the vast majority of Emacs users does not install
          >> packages.  For a newbie to get to Emacs and to be able to open a .org file
          >> is a big plus.  So my vote goes toward keeping it in.
          >>
          >
          > ​Since you're responsible for org-mode, and I guess you're happy with the
          > coordination between (your) upstream and Emacs, then ​I agree it should
          > continue to be distributed out of the box.
          >
          > However, your comments raise a couple of thoughts:
          >
          > 1. Is there something hard about packages that could be made easier? For
          > example, Atom seems to get along fine without many built-in packages, so
          > that most users expect to install some.
          >
          > 2. Is there any possibility to make org-mode a build-time dependency of
          > Emacs, like the C libraries that it requires, or is that a silly idea? That
          > could permit it to be shipped as built-in, without having its source
          > duplicated in Emacs's repository.
          
          This kind of idea is, indeed, being actively considered on
          emacs-devel. In fact, I managed to get a simple version of this working
          using package.el during the build process. The idea would be that
          packages in ELPA format could be made available to Emacs during the
          build and then be packaged with the tarball as now.
          
          The general feedback on my implementation was negative, but the general
          principle is something that people are keen to pursue, hopefully for
          Emacs-26. Org-mode would make a good test case for this.
          
          Another possibility would be to extend the current "autoload"
          functionality, so that it can install via package.el before
          autoloading. Might work, but not tried that yet.
          
          
          Phil
          
          ^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 30+ messages in thread

        • • * Re: Remove Org from Emacs repository?
              2016-12-19 15:32         ` Phillip Lord
            @ 2016-12-19 15:45           ` Reuben Thomas
              0 siblings, 0 replies; 30+ messages in thread
            From: Reuben Thomas @ 2016-12-19 15:45 UTC (permalink / raw)
              To: Phillip Lord; +Cc: Carsten Dominik, emacs-orgmode@gnu.org, aaermolov
            
            [-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 552 bytes --]
            
            On 19 December 2016 at 15:32, Phillip Lord <phillip.lord@russet.org.uk>
            wrote:
            
            >
            > This kind of idea is, indeed, being actively considered on
            > emacs-devel.
            
            
            ​That's good to hear!​
            
            In fact, I managed to get a simple version of this working
            > using package.el during the build process. The idea would be that
            > packages in ELPA format could be made available to Emacs during the
            > build and then be packaged with the tarball as now.
            >
            
            ​That would be great, it would certainly do what I'm after.​
            
            -- 
            http://rrt.sc3d.org
            
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            ^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 30+ messages in thread

    • * Re: Remove Org from Emacs repository?
        2016-12-18 13:20   ` Carsten Dominik
                             ` (2 preceding siblings ...)
        2016-12-18 17:01     ` Reuben Thomas
      @ 2016-12-18 17:11     ` Christian Moe
        2016-12-18 18:46       ` Xebar Saram
        2016-12-19 18:09     ` Scott Randby
        4 siblings, 1 reply; 30+ messages in thread
      From: Christian Moe @ 2016-12-18 17:11 UTC (permalink / raw)
        To: Carsten Dominik; +Cc: emacs-orgmode@gnu.org, aaermolov, Reuben Thomas
      
      
      +1.
      
      (= Keep it in.)
      
      Yours,
      Christian
      
      Carsten Dominik writes:
      
      > Dear all,
      >
      > I'd hate to see Org removed from Emacs.  It took a lot of work to get it
      > in, and I believe that the vast majority of Emacs users does not install
      > packages.  For a newbie to get to Emacs and to be able to open a .org file
      > is a big plus.  So my vote goes toward keeping it in.
      >
      > Carsten
      >
      > On Sun, Dec 18, 2016 at 10:22 AM, <aaermolov@gmail.com> wrote:
      >
      >> 2 cents from me...
      >>
      >> Besides I continuously see many users praising Emacs just for Org
      >> presence (they even may be completely non-technical users), I'm
      >> personally think Org may be removed from Emacs distribution because:
      >>
      >> 1) all Reuben's argument seems sane;
      >> 2) there are situations when someone wants particular version of Org,
      >>    and it may be not tne one bundled with Emacs. In this case someone
      >>    should perform extra steps to ensure things are going the right way.
      >>    When Org will be available only from ELPA, it will be SPOT for such
      >> cases.
      >>
      >> Reuben Thomas <rrt@sc3d.org> writes:
      >>
      >> > Now that Emacs has had package.el for some years, and Org is installable
      >> > directly from GNU ELPA, would it be a good idea to remove Org from
      >> Emacs's
      >> > source repository?
      >> >
      >> > The current situation is left over from before Emacs had package.el, and
      >> I
      >> > see no compelling reason to keep it. Org is too big and distinct to be
      >> > swallowed by Emacs; it doesn't make much sense to keep its current
      >> half-in,
      >> > half-out state; so logically it seems sensible to take it out.
      >> >
      >> > I am asking this question from an Org point of view; I will ask the Emacs
      >> > maintainers separately for their perspective.
      >> >
      >> > I think it would benefit Emacs too, as there would be less code to
      >> maintain
      >> > (even though Org is quasi-external at present, it still has to build
      >> > successfully as part of an Emacs build), and the Emacs distribution would
      >> > be slimmer for non-Org users.
      >> >
      >> > Of course, Emacs "distributions" would still be able to include Org
      >> > out-of-the box if they wished.
      >> >
      >> > --
      >> > http://rrt.sc3d.org
      >>
      
      ^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 30+ messages in thread

    • • * Re: Remove Org from Emacs repository?
          2016-12-18 17:11     ` Christian Moe
        @ 2016-12-18 18:46       ` Xebar Saram
          2016-12-18 19:08         ` Lambda Coder
          0 siblings, 1 reply; 30+ messages in thread
        From: Xebar Saram @ 2016-12-18 18:46 UTC (permalink / raw)
          To: Christian Moe
          Cc: Carsten Dominik, emacs-orgmode@gnu.org, aaermolov, Reuben Thomas
        
        [-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 2489 bytes --]
        
        +1 for keeping it in
        
        i often debug my org based init config by launching emacs -Q and its great
        to have org built in for that :)
        
        Z
        
        On Sun, Dec 18, 2016 at 7:11 PM, Christian Moe <mail@christianmoe.com>
        wrote:
        
        >
        > +1.
        >
        > (= Keep it in.)
        >
        > Yours,
        > Christian
        >
        > Carsten Dominik writes:
        >
        > > Dear all,
        > >
        > > I'd hate to see Org removed from Emacs.  It took a lot of work to get it
        > > in, and I believe that the vast majority of Emacs users does not install
        > > packages.  For a newbie to get to Emacs and to be able to open a .org
        > file
        > > is a big plus.  So my vote goes toward keeping it in.
        > >
        > > Carsten
        > >
        > > On Sun, Dec 18, 2016 at 10:22 AM, <aaermolov@gmail.com> wrote:
        > >
        > >> 2 cents from me...
        > >>
        > >> Besides I continuously see many users praising Emacs just for Org
        > >> presence (they even may be completely non-technical users), I'm
        > >> personally think Org may be removed from Emacs distribution because:
        > >>
        > >> 1) all Reuben's argument seems sane;
        > >> 2) there are situations when someone wants particular version of Org,
        > >>    and it may be not tne one bundled with Emacs. In this case someone
        > >>    should perform extra steps to ensure things are going the right way.
        > >>    When Org will be available only from ELPA, it will be SPOT for such
        > >> cases.
        > >>
        > >> Reuben Thomas <rrt@sc3d.org> writes:
        > >>
        > >> > Now that Emacs has had package.el for some years, and Org is
        > installable
        > >> > directly from GNU ELPA, would it be a good idea to remove Org from
        > >> Emacs's
        > >> > source repository?
        > >> >
        > >> > The current situation is left over from before Emacs had package.el,
        > and
        > >> I
        > >> > see no compelling reason to keep it. Org is too big and distinct to be
        > >> > swallowed by Emacs; it doesn't make much sense to keep its current
        > >> half-in,
        > >> > half-out state; so logically it seems sensible to take it out.
        > >> >
        > >> > I am asking this question from an Org point of view; I will ask the
        > Emacs
        > >> > maintainers separately for their perspective.
        > >> >
        > >> > I think it would benefit Emacs too, as there would be less code to
        > >> maintain
        > >> > (even though Org is quasi-external at present, it still has to build
        > >> > successfully as part of an Emacs build), and the Emacs distribution
        > would
        > >> > be slimmer for non-Org users.
        > >> >
        > >> > Of course, Emacs "distributions" would still be able to include Org
        > >> > out-of-the box if they wished.
        > >> >
        > >> > --
        > >> > http://rrt.sc3d.org
        > >>
        >
        >
        >
        
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        ^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 30+ messages in thread

      • • * Re: Remove Org from Emacs repository?
            2016-12-18 18:46       ` Xebar Saram
          @ 2016-12-18 19:08         ` Lambda Coder
            0 siblings, 0 replies; 30+ messages in thread
          From: Lambda Coder @ 2016-12-18 19:08 UTC (permalink / raw)
            To: emacs-orgmode
          
          [-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 2672 bytes --]
          
          +1 (keep it in)
          
          On Sun, Dec 18, 2016 at 10:46 AM, Xebar Saram <zeltakc@gmail.com> wrote:
          
          > +1 for keeping it in
          >
          > i often debug my org based init config by launching emacs -Q and its great
          > to have org built in for that :)
          >
          > Z
          >
          > On Sun, Dec 18, 2016 at 7:11 PM, Christian Moe <mail@christianmoe.com>
          > wrote:
          >
          >>
          >> +1.
          >>
          >> (= Keep it in.)
          >>
          >> Yours,
          >> Christian
          >>
          >> Carsten Dominik writes:
          >>
          >> > Dear all,
          >> >
          >> > I'd hate to see Org removed from Emacs.  It took a lot of work to get it
          >> > in, and I believe that the vast majority of Emacs users does not install
          >> > packages.  For a newbie to get to Emacs and to be able to open a .org
          >> file
          >> > is a big plus.  So my vote goes toward keeping it in.
          >> >
          >> > Carsten
          >> >
          >> > On Sun, Dec 18, 2016 at 10:22 AM, <aaermolov@gmail.com> wrote:
          >> >
          >> >> 2 cents from me...
          >> >>
          >> >> Besides I continuously see many users praising Emacs just for Org
          >> >> presence (they even may be completely non-technical users), I'm
          >> >> personally think Org may be removed from Emacs distribution because:
          >> >>
          >> >> 1) all Reuben's argument seems sane;
          >> >> 2) there are situations when someone wants particular version of Org,
          >> >>    and it may be not tne one bundled with Emacs. In this case someone
          >> >>    should perform extra steps to ensure things are going the right way.
          >> >>    When Org will be available only from ELPA, it will be SPOT for such
          >> >> cases.
          >> >>
          >> >> Reuben Thomas <rrt@sc3d.org> writes:
          >> >>
          >> >> > Now that Emacs has had package.el for some years, and Org is
          >> installable
          >> >> > directly from GNU ELPA, would it be a good idea to remove Org from
          >> >> Emacs's
          >> >> > source repository?
          >> >> >
          >> >> > The current situation is left over from before Emacs had package.el,
          >> and
          >> >> I
          >> >> > see no compelling reason to keep it. Org is too big and distinct to
          >> be
          >> >> > swallowed by Emacs; it doesn't make much sense to keep its current
          >> >> half-in,
          >> >> > half-out state; so logically it seems sensible to take it out.
          >> >> >
          >> >> > I am asking this question from an Org point of view; I will ask the
          >> Emacs
          >> >> > maintainers separately for their perspective.
          >> >> >
          >> >> > I think it would benefit Emacs too, as there would be less code to
          >> >> maintain
          >> >> > (even though Org is quasi-external at present, it still has to build
          >> >> > successfully as part of an Emacs build), and the Emacs distribution
          >> would
          >> >> > be slimmer for non-Org users.
          >> >> >
          >> >> > Of course, Emacs "distributions" would still be able to include Org
          >> >> > out-of-the box if they wished.
          >> >> >
          >> >> > --
          >> >> > http://rrt.sc3d.org
          >> >>
          >>
          >>
          >>
          >
          
          [-- Attachment #2: Type: text/html, Size: 4120 bytes --]
          
          ^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 30+ messages in thread

    • * Re: Remove Org from Emacs repository?
        2016-12-18 13:20   ` Carsten Dominik
                             ` (3 preceding siblings ...)
        2016-12-18 17:11     ` Christian Moe
      @ 2016-12-19 18:09     ` Scott Randby
        4 siblings, 0 replies; 30+ messages in thread
      From: Scott Randby @ 2016-12-19 18:09 UTC (permalink / raw)
        To: emacs-orgmode
      
      +1 for Keeping Org in Emacs.
      
      Scott Randby
      
      On 12/18/2016 08:20 AM, Carsten Dominik wrote:
      > Dear all,
      > 
      > I'd hate to see Org removed from Emacs.  It took a lot of work to get it
      > in, and I believe that the vast majority of Emacs users does not install
      > packages.  For a newbie to get to Emacs and to be able to open a .org
      > file is a big plus.  So my vote goes toward keeping it in.
      > 
      > Carsten
      > 
      > On Sun, Dec 18, 2016 at 10:22 AM, <aaermolov@gmail.com
      > <mailto:aaermolov@gmail.com>> wrote:
      > 
      >     2 cents from me...
      > 
      >     Besides I continuously see many users praising Emacs just for Org
      >     presence (they even may be completely non-technical users), I'm
      >     personally think Org may be removed from Emacs distribution because:
      > 
      >     1) all Reuben's argument seems sane;
      >     2) there are situations when someone wants particular version of Org,
      >        and it may be not tne one bundled with Emacs. In this case someone
      >        should perform extra steps to ensure things are going the right way.
      >        When Org will be available only from ELPA, it will be SPOT for
      >     such cases.
      > 
      >     Reuben Thomas <rrt@sc3d.org <mailto:rrt@sc3d.org>> writes:
      > 
      >     > Now that Emacs has had package.el for some years, and Org is installable
      >     > directly from GNU ELPA, would it be a good idea to remove Org from Emacs's
      >     > source repository?
      >     >
      >     > The current situation is left over from before Emacs had package.el, and I
      >     > see no compelling reason to keep it. Org is too big and distinct to be
      >     > swallowed by Emacs; it doesn't make much sense to keep its current half-in,
      >     > half-out state; so logically it seems sensible to take it out.
      >     >
      >     > I am asking this question from an Org point of view; I will ask the Emacs
      >     > maintainers separately for their perspective.
      >     >
      >     > I think it would benefit Emacs too, as there would be less code to maintain
      >     > (even though Org is quasi-external at present, it still has to build
      >     > successfully as part of an Emacs build), and the Emacs distribution would
      >     > be slimmer for non-Org users.
      >     >
      >     > Of course, Emacs "distributions" would still be able to include Org
      >     > out-of-the box if they wished.
      >     >
      >     > --
      >     > http://rrt.sc3d.org
      > 
      > 
      
      ^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 30+ messages in thread

  • * Re: Remove Org from Emacs repository?
      2016-12-18  9:22 ` aaermolov
      2016-12-18 13:20   ` Carsten Dominik
    @ 2016-12-18 19:21   ` Samuel Wales
      2016-12-18 23:32     ` Reuben Thomas
      1 sibling, 1 reply; 30+ messages in thread
    From: Samuel Wales @ 2016-12-18 19:21 UTC (permalink / raw)
      To: aaermolov; +Cc: emacs-orgmode@gnu.org, Reuben Thomas
    
    auto-mode-alist has more than 200 entries.  we're gonna remove .org?
    
    "you must install org to view this format" is a bit too minimal for my
    taste.  :)  sounds like adobe flash.  :)
    
    surely this topic was raised to have a bit of fun seeing all the responses?  :)
    
    -- 
    The Kafka Pandemic: http://thekafkapandemic.blogspot.com
    
    The disease DOES progress.  MANY people have died from it.  And
    ANYBODY can get it.
    
    Denmark: free Karina Hansen NOW.
      UPDATE 2016-10: home, but not fully free
    
    ^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 30+ messages in thread

  • • * Re: Remove Org from Emacs repository?
        2016-12-18 19:21   ` Samuel Wales
      @ 2016-12-18 23:32     ` Reuben Thomas
        2016-12-19  1:36       ` MaDhAt2r
                               ` (2 more replies)
        0 siblings, 3 replies; 30+ messages in thread
      From: Reuben Thomas @ 2016-12-18 23:32 UTC (permalink / raw)
        To: Samuel Wales; +Cc: emacs-orgmode@gnu.org, aaermolov
      
      [-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1377 bytes --]
      
      On 18 December 2016 at 19:21, Samuel Wales <samologist@gmail.com> wrote:
      
      > auto-mode-alist has more than 200 entries.  we're gonna remove .org?
      >
      
      ​Org is nearly 90kLOC, or about 6.5% of the total ELisp code currently in
      Emacs. It's bigger than CEDET, smaller than GNUS.
      
      It's a project of its own with its own release cadence. It would be good to
      make Emacs less of a monolithic entity, which needs lengthy debugging
      cycles between releases, and has to choose between being out of date with
      various upstreams, or delaying to test integration of big packages.
      
      Now that package.el is mature, there's no need for Emacs to include all
      this stuff in its source releases.
      
      What emacs -Q does is a different matter: there's plenty of scope to ship a
      variety of packages "out of the box". Various customised Emacs
      "distributions" already do this.
      
      "you must install org to view this format" is a bit too minimal for my
      > taste.  :)  sounds like adobe flash.  :)
      >
      
      ​I'm sure plenty of Emacs users never open an Org-mode file. Why​ should
      they have to install it?
      
      surely this topic was raised to have a bit of fun seeing all the
      > responses?  :)
      >
      
      ​No, I was just testing the waters to see if a more modern approach to
      development and distribution might be popular. Apparently the answer is, at
      least, not yet!
      
      -- 
      http://rrt.sc3d.org
      
      [-- Attachment #2: Type: text/html, Size: 2798 bytes --]
      
      ^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 30+ messages in thread

    • • * Re: Remove Org from Emacs repository?
          2016-12-18 23:32     ` Reuben Thomas
        @ 2016-12-19  1:36       ` MaDhAt2r
          2016-12-19 10:42       ` Achim Gratz
          2017-01-16  8:36       ` Erik Colson
          2 siblings, 0 replies; 30+ messages in thread
        From: MaDhAt2r @ 2016-12-19  1:36 UTC (permalink / raw)
          To: Reuben Thomas, Samuel Wales; +Cc: emacs-orgmode@gnu.org, aaermolov
        
        
        I am for leaving it to the users discretion as to weather or not they
        have Org installed. I think if anyone out there wants to open an .org
        file, more than likely, they know what it is and how to get it. If not
        there is a plethora of information out there to point them in the right
        direction.
        
        After all, isn't free software, at least somewhat, about choices? :)
        
        
        On Dec 18 at 11:32 PM, Reuben Thomas said thus:
        > On 18 December 2016 at 19:21, Samuel Wales <samologist@gmail.com> wrote:
        >
        >> auto-mode-alist has more than 200 entries.  we're gonna remove .org?
        >>
        >
        > ​Org is nearly 90kLOC, or about 6.5% of the total ELisp code currently in
        > Emacs. It's bigger than CEDET, smaller than GNUS.
        >
        > It's a project of its own with its own release cadence. It would be good to
        > make Emacs less of a monolithic entity, which needs lengthy debugging
        > cycles between releases, and has to choose between being out of date with
        > various upstreams, or delaying to test integration of big packages.
        >
        > Now that package.el is mature, there's no need for Emacs to include all
        > this stuff in its source releases.
        >
        > What emacs -Q does is a different matter: there's plenty of scope to ship a
        > variety of packages "out of the box". Various customised Emacs
        > "distributions" already do this.
        >
        > "you must install org to view this format" is a bit too minimal for my
        >> taste.  :)  sounds like adobe flash.  :)
        >>
        >
        > ​I'm sure plenty of Emacs users never open an Org-mode file. Why​ should
        > they have to install it?
        >
        > surely this topic was raised to have a bit of fun seeing all the
        >> responses?  :)
        >>
        >
        > ​No, I was just testing the waters to see if a more modern approach to
        > development and distribution might be popular. Apparently the answer is, at
        > least, not yet!
        >
        > -- 
        > http://rrt.sc3d.org
        
        ^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 30+ messages in thread

      • * Re: Remove Org from Emacs repository?
          2016-12-18 23:32     ` Reuben Thomas
          2016-12-19  1:36       ` MaDhAt2r
        @ 2016-12-19 10:42       ` Achim Gratz
               [not found]         ` <WM!759fdf23a4a1bd7b46432ee60644e52fd7beb44781fd97109e1d38080c6611cbecaf3bf7f1ea49cdc6a1823f1a9663ec!@mailhub-mx4.ncl.ac.uk>
          2017-01-16  8:36       ` Erik Colson
          2 siblings, 1 reply; 30+ messages in thread
        From: Achim Gratz @ 2016-12-19 10:42 UTC (permalink / raw)
          To: emacs-orgmode
        
        Reuben Thomas writes:
        > ​Org is nearly 90kLOC, or about 6.5% of the total ELisp code currently in
        > Emacs. It's bigger than CEDET, smaller than GNUS.
        
        Within the whole of Emacs, an argument about size doesn't make any sense
        at all.  It's also quite arbitrary, as some functionality that comes
        with Org could or even should be factored out into their own packages
        eventually.
        
        > It's a project of its own with its own release cadence. It would be good to
        > make Emacs less of a monolithic entity, which needs lengthy debugging
        > cycles between releases, and has to choose between being out of date with
        > various upstreams, or delaying to test integration of big packages.
        
        That needs to be discussed with Emacs devs, not Org (or any other
        package that fits a similar profile).  And it has been discussed in the
        past, with somewhat interesting responses on both sides.
        
        > Now that package.el is mature, there's no need for Emacs to include all
        > this stuff in its source releases.
        
        That assertion isn't universally accepted as true.  Org in particular
        continues to show how the integration into Emacs as well as some
        functionality in package.el itself is still lacking.  True packetization
        of Emacs' "built-in" packages is further hindered by the fact that
        package.el is currently solely "user-centric" and lacks the usual
        facilities for curating package selection at the installation level.
        
        > ​No, I was just testing the waters to see if a more modern approach to
        > development and distribution might be popular. Apparently the answer is, at
        > least, not yet!
        
        Again, that's ultimately something for GNU Emacs to decide upon.  But it
        doesn't come free nor is all the necessary infrastructure in place yet.
        
        
        Regards,
        Achim.
        -- 
        +<[Q+ Matrix-12 WAVE#46+305 Neuron microQkb Andromeda XTk Blofeld]>+
        
        SD adaptation for Waldorf Blofeld V1.15B11:
        http://Synth.Stromeko.net/Downloads.html#WaldorfSDada
        
        ^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 30+ messages in thread

      • • [parent not found: <WM!759fdf23a4a1bd7b46432ee60644e52fd7beb44781fd97109e1d38080c6611cbecaf3bf7f1ea49cdc6a1823f1a9663ec!@mailhub-mx4.ncl.ac.uk>]

        • • * Re: Remove Org from Emacs repository?
                   [not found]         ` <WM!759fdf23a4a1bd7b46432ee60644e52fd7beb44781fd97109e1d38080c6611cbecaf3bf7f1ea49cdc6a1823f1a9663ec!@mailhub-mx4.ncl.ac.uk>
            @ 2016-12-19 17:14           ` Phillip Lord
              2016-12-19 18:53             ` Achim Gratz
              0 siblings, 1 reply; 30+ messages in thread
            From: Phillip Lord @ 2016-12-19 17:14 UTC (permalink / raw)
              To: Achim Gratz; +Cc: emacs-orgmode
            
            Achim Gratz <Stromeko@nexgo.de> writes:
            >> Now that package.el is mature, there's no need for Emacs to include all
            >> this stuff in its source releases.
            >
            > That assertion isn't universally accepted as true.  Org in particular
            > continues to show how the integration into Emacs as well as some
            > functionality in package.el itself is still lacking.  True packetization
            > of Emacs' "built-in" packages is further hindered by the fact that
            > package.el is currently solely "user-centric" and lacks the usual
            > facilities for curating package selection at the installation level.
            
            I think there's only a few problems, actually. package.el initialization
            is all or nothing at the moment, and is disabled on emacs -q. Neither of
            these would make sense if we wanted in built packages.
            
            It's not strictly necessary, though. The current idea is to not to use
            packages but to, essentially, move the lisp of packages in ELPA into
            place in the build. package.el need not be involved then.
            
            Phil
            
            ^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 30+ messages in thread

          • • * Re: Remove Org from Emacs repository?
                2016-12-19 17:14           ` Phillip Lord
              @ 2016-12-19 18:53             ` Achim Gratz
                     [not found]               ` <WM!fdb65752b64ef5461efbcb948e173a504edcf68a88cb151b38f9292793a941a33217a0cc771607f86b8962c90b171694!@mailhub-mx4.ncl.ac.uk>
                0 siblings, 1 reply; 30+ messages in thread
              From: Achim Gratz @ 2016-12-19 18:53 UTC (permalink / raw)
                To: emacs-orgmode
              
              Phillip Lord writes:
              > I think there's only a few problems, actually. package.el initialization
              > is all or nothing at the moment, and is disabled on emacs -q. Neither of
              > these would make sense if we wanted in built packages.
              
              My opinion is that unless package.el adds explicit support for
              system-level packetization decisions (i.e. for admins or distributions)
              it's not going to gain widespread support from that small, but important
              set of folks.  Of course the user will then have to be able to override
              these like deactivation of packages, installing different versions, etc.
              Before long it also needs to be able to cope with different package
              archives simultaneously especially when those have incompatible
              numbering schemes.
              
              > It's not strictly necessary, though. The current idea is to not to use
              > packages but to, essentially, move the lisp of packages in ELPA into
              > place in the build. package.el need not be involved then.
              
              Yes I know.  Which is in essence prolonging the current state of affairs
              as far as the users are concerned.  If it gets things moving into the
              right direction I'll be glad.  I just had hoped for some more general
              (some would say radical) solution.
              
              
              Regards,
              Achim.
              -- 
              +<[Q+ Matrix-12 WAVE#46+305 Neuron microQkb Andromeda XTk Blofeld]>+
              
              Wavetables for the Terratec KOMPLEXER:
              http://Synth.Stromeko.net/Downloads.html#KomplexerWaves
              
              ^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 30+ messages in thread

            • • [parent not found: <WM!fdb65752b64ef5461efbcb948e173a504edcf68a88cb151b38f9292793a941a33217a0cc771607f86b8962c90b171694!@mailhub-mx4.ncl.ac.uk>]

              • • * Re: Remove Org from Emacs repository?
                         [not found]               ` <WM!fdb65752b64ef5461efbcb948e173a504edcf68a88cb151b38f9292793a941a33217a0cc771607f86b8962c90b171694!@mailhub-mx4.ncl.ac.uk>
                  @ 2016-12-20 10:13                 ` Phillip Lord
                    0 siblings, 0 replies; 30+ messages in thread
                  From: Phillip Lord @ 2016-12-20 10:13 UTC (permalink / raw)
                    To: Achim Gratz; +Cc: emacs-orgmode
                  
                  Achim Gratz <Stromeko@nexgo.de> writes:
                  
                  > Phillip Lord writes:
                  >> I think there's only a few problems, actually. package.el initialization
                  >> is all or nothing at the moment, and is disabled on emacs -q. Neither of
                  >> these would make sense if we wanted in built packages.
                  >
                  > My opinion is that unless package.el adds explicit support for
                  > system-level packetization decisions (i.e. for admins or distributions)
                  > it's not going to gain widespread support from that small, but important
                  > set of folks.
                  
                  I think it mostly has this, in the sense that you can add packages into
                  admin installation locations. Although, this are disabled with emacs -Q.
                  
                  > Of course the user will then have to be able to override these like
                  > deactivation of packages, installing different versions, etc.
                  
                  Different versions you can do. Deactivation at the moment, no, although
                  I guess you could delete the autoloads.
                  
                  > Before long it also needs to be able to cope with different package
                  > archives simultaneously especially when those have incompatible
                  > numbering schemes.
                  
                  That one would be a bit harder, although you could add support for
                  package repositories to add their own numbering scheme by installating a
                  package.
                  
                  >
                  >> It's not strictly necessary, though. The current idea is to not to use
                  >> packages but to, essentially, move the lisp of packages in ELPA into
                  >> place in the build. package.el need not be involved then.
                  >
                  > Yes I know.  Which is in essence prolonging the current state of affairs
                  > as far as the users are concerned.  If it gets things moving into the
                  > right direction I'll be glad.  I just had hoped for some more general
                  > (some would say radical) solution.
                  
                  Some did say radical, unfortunately.
                  
                  Still, you give me encouragement. I may complete my solution after
                  all. Perhaps combined with a completely repackaged Emacs core.
                  
                  Phil
                  
                  ^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 30+ messages in thread

      • * Re: Remove Org from Emacs repository?
          2016-12-18 23:32     ` Reuben Thomas
          2016-12-19  1:36       ` MaDhAt2r
          2016-12-19 10:42       ` Achim Gratz
        @ 2017-01-16  8:36       ` Erik Colson
          2 siblings, 0 replies; 30+ messages in thread
        From: Erik Colson @ 2017-01-16  8:36 UTC (permalink / raw)
          To: emacs-orgmode
        
        Reuben Thomas <rrt@sc3d.org> writes:
        
        > ​Org is nearly 90kLOC, or about 6.5% of the total ELisp code currently in
        > Emacs. It's bigger than CEDET, smaller than GNUS.
        
        You hit a point here.  GNUS is indeed distributed with Emacs.  However
        GNUS is even more integrated as even the repo is integrated with Emacs.
        Maybe it would be the way to go to even include ORGMODE repo in Emacs ?
        
        best
        -- 
        erik colson
        
        ^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 30+ messages in thread

• * Re: Remove Org from Emacs repository?
    2016-12-17 22:43 Remove Org from Emacs repository? Reuben Thomas
    2016-12-18  9:22 ` aaermolov
  @ 2016-12-19  1:52 ` Eric Abrahamsen
    2016-12-19  4:42   ` Maria Shinoto
    2016-12-20 20:07   ` Preventing Org from being installed by elpa (was: Remove Org from Emacs repository?) Karl Voit
    1 sibling, 2 replies; 30+ messages in thread
  From: Eric Abrahamsen @ 2016-12-19  1:52 UTC (permalink / raw)
    To: emacs-orgmode
  
  Reuben Thomas <rrt@sc3d.org> writes:
  
  > Now that Emacs has had package.el for some years, and Org is
  > installable directly from GNU ELPA, would it be a good idea to remove
  > Org from Emacs's source repository?
  
  I think the fact that this is an issue at all is an indication of a
  shortcoming in Emacs' package-management system. I wish package
  management happened "invisibly" (ie, (package-initialize) happened all
  by itself). Emacs then would come bundled with certain packages -- Org,
  Dired, Gnus, Tramp, etc.
  
  If a user were totally unaware of the existence of packages, those
  packages would only get updated when Emacs was updated.
  
  If a user were package-savvy, he/she could open up the package manager,
  which would provide the option to update those packages, or remove them
  altogether. My personal opinion is that Emacs should lean more towards
  "batteries included", but offer a slimming option for users who
  understand packages.
  
  Right now I apparently have two copies of Org installed -- the Emacs
  bundle, and org-plus-contrib from the package repos. Actually, I have a
  third: the plain old Org package from the package repos, because I've
  installed other packages that require it. (Another gripe: why isn't the
  loading of a file containing (provide 'org) enough to tell the package
  manager not to install another one?)
  
  And actually a fourth: Org from git. Again, if the package manager were
  satisfied by finding a (provide 'org) in my loaded code-base, this might
  be the only copy necessary.
  
  All this is just to say, I wish this were an argument we didn't have to
  have.
  
  E
  
  ^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 30+ messages in thread

• • * Re: Remove Org from Emacs repository?
      2016-12-19  1:52 ` Eric Abrahamsen
    @ 2016-12-19  4:42   ` Maria Shinoto
      2016-12-20 20:07   ` Preventing Org from being installed by elpa (was: Remove Org from Emacs repository?) Karl Voit
      1 sibling, 0 replies; 30+ messages in thread
    From: Maria Shinoto @ 2016-12-19  4:42 UTC (permalink / raw)
      To: emacs-orgmode
    
    Some thoughts from a beginner:
    
    >> Now that Emacs has had package.el for some years, and Org is
    >> installable directly from GNU ELPA, would it be a good idea to remove
    >> Org from Emacs's source repository?
    
    Beginners are overwhelmed with the options and traps, to do something 
    wrong. It is almost impossible to start with Emacs, despite the good 
    documentation. This list helped me out in the beginning, and I am glad.
    
    I started using Emacs without deep technological background and without 
    any help around. I started using it because of org-mode, and I was _so_ 
    happy that org-mode was included.
    
    "All inclusive" packages are the best for beginners. Download, use as is 
    and get used to it. After that, one may start with Elisp and packages.
    
    > I think the fact that this is an issue at all is an indication of a
    > shortcoming in Emacs' package-management system. I wish package
    > management happened "invisibly" (ie, (package-initialize) happened all
    > by itself). Emacs then would come bundled with certain packages -- Org,
    > Dired, Gnus, Tramp, etc.
    
    The package manager is not difficult as soon as one has got used to 
    Emacs. But it is certainly not a good idea to ask people to use it when 
    they start trying Emacs. I am collecting my impressions on my way 
    getting used to Emacs and would like to write a short list of ideas to 
    make the package manager easier to use, if you like.
    
    Best,
    Maria
    
    ^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 30+ messages in thread

  • * Preventing Org from being installed by elpa (was: Remove Org from Emacs repository?)
      2016-12-19  1:52 ` Eric Abrahamsen
      2016-12-19  4:42   ` Maria Shinoto
    @ 2016-12-20 20:07   ` Karl Voit
      2016-12-21  9:47     ` Preventing Org from being installed by elpa Christian Wittern
           [not found]     ` <WM!fbba205c161c2d01739b0e77a8ccc521b0d6b80e8ba4b6108c74becbbd57ccbdb4003d644b63e3c98578a5b823582b17!@mailhub-mx3.ncl.ac.uk>
      1 sibling, 2 replies; 30+ messages in thread
    From: Karl Voit @ 2016-12-20 20:07 UTC (permalink / raw)
      To: emacs-orgmode
    
    * Eric Abrahamsen <eric@ericabrahamsen.net> wrote:
    >
    > Actually, I have a third: the plain old Org package from the
    > package repos, because I've installed other packages that require
    > it. (Another gripe: why isn't the loading of a file containing
    > (provide 'org) enough to tell the package manager not to install
    > another one?)
    
    I got the tipp of creating «~/.emacs.d/elpa/org-30000101/org-pkg.el»
    with:
      (define-package "org" "30000101" "Dummy org mode package" 'nil)
    
    And this simulates the fulfilled dependency so that my git version
    of Org-mode is the only one installed (besides maybe the default one
    from Emacs).
    
    HTH
    
    -- 
    mail|git|SVN|photos|postings|SMS|phonecalls|RSS|CSV|XML to Org-mode:
           > get Memacs from https://github.com/novoid/Memacs <
    
    https://github.com/novoid/extract_pdf_annotations_to_orgmode + more on github
    
    ^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 30+ messages in thread

  • • * Re: Preventing Org from being installed by elpa
        2016-12-20 20:07   ` Preventing Org from being installed by elpa (was: Remove Org from Emacs repository?) Karl Voit
      @ 2016-12-21  9:47     ` Christian Wittern
        2016-12-21 13:25       ` Karl Voit
             [not found]     ` <WM!fbba205c161c2d01739b0e77a8ccc521b0d6b80e8ba4b6108c74becbbd57ccbdb4003d644b63e3c98578a5b823582b17!@mailhub-mx3.ncl.ac.uk>
        1 sibling, 1 reply; 30+ messages in thread
      From: Christian Wittern @ 2016-12-21  9:47 UTC (permalink / raw)
        To: emacs-orgmode
      
      On 12/21/2016 05:07 AM, Karl Voit wrote:
      > I got the tipp of creating «~/.emacs.d/elpa/org-30000101/org-pkg.el»
      > with:
      >   (define-package "org" "30000101" "Dummy org mode package" 'nil)
      >
      > And this simulates the fulfilled dependency so that my git version
      > of Org-mode is the only one installed (besides maybe the default one
      > from Emacs).
      
      Hmm, this sounds like what I want.  However, when I try this, Emacs tells me:
      
      (file-error "Cannot open load file" "no such file or directory" 
      "/home/<user>/.emacs.d/elpa/org-30000101/org-autoloads")
         load("/home/<user>/.emacs.d/elpa/org-30000101/org-autoloads" nil t)
      
      Is there a way to avoid this?
      
      All the best,
      
      Christian
      
      -- 
      Christian Wittern, Kyoto
      
      ^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 30+ messages in thread

    • • * Re: Preventing Org from being installed by elpa
          2016-12-21  9:47     ` Preventing Org from being installed by elpa Christian Wittern
        @ 2016-12-21 13:25       ` Karl Voit
          2016-12-21 23:06         ` Christian Wittern
          0 siblings, 1 reply; 30+ messages in thread
        From: Karl Voit @ 2016-12-21 13:25 UTC (permalink / raw)
          To: emacs-orgmode
        
        * Christian Wittern <cwittern@gmail.com> wrote:
        > On 12/21/2016 05:07 AM, Karl Voit wrote:
        >> I got the tipp of creating «~/.emacs.d/elpa/org-30000101/org-pkg.el»
        >> with:
        >>   (define-package "org" "30000101" "Dummy org mode package" 'nil)
        >>
        >> And this simulates the fulfilled dependency so that my git version
        >> of Org-mode is the only one installed (besides maybe the default one
        >> from Emacs).
        >
        > Hmm, this sounds like what I want.  However, when I try this, Emacs tells me:
        >
        > (file-error "Cannot open load file" "no such file or directory" 
        > "/home/<user>/.emacs.d/elpa/org-30000101/org-autoloads")
        >    load("/home/<user>/.emacs.d/elpa/org-30000101/org-autoloads" nil t)
        >
        > Is there a way to avoid this?
        
        I'm sorry. 
        
        Usually, I do keep detailed notes on things I do. But when I created
        this pseudo-package, I did not write down a detailed howto for my
        future me.
        
        But the input for this came from this mailing list. So please search
        the archive and you might get the original instructions.
        
        -- 
        mail|git|SVN|photos|postings|SMS|phonecalls|RSS|CSV|XML to Org-mode:
               > get Memacs from https://github.com/novoid/Memacs <
        
        https://github.com/novoid/extract_pdf_annotations_to_orgmode + more on github
        
        ^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 30+ messages in thread

      • • * Re: Preventing Org from being installed by elpa
            2016-12-21 13:25       ` Karl Voit
          @ 2016-12-21 23:06         ` Christian Wittern
            0 siblings, 0 replies; 30+ messages in thread
          From: Christian Wittern @ 2016-12-21 23:06 UTC (permalink / raw)
            To: emacs-orgmode
          
          On 12/21/2016 10:25 PM, Karl Voit wrote:
          > * Christian Wittern <cwittern@gmail.com> wrote:
          >> On 12/21/2016 05:07 AM, Karl Voit wrote:
          >>> I got the tipp of creating «~/.emacs.d/elpa/org-30000101/org-pkg.el»
          >>> with:
          >>>   (define-package "org" "30000101" "Dummy org mode package" 'nil)
          >>>
          >>> And this simulates the fulfilled dependency so that my git version
          >>> of Org-mode is the only one installed (besides maybe the default one
          >>> from Emacs).
          >>
          >> Hmm, this sounds like what I want.  However, when I try this, Emacs tells me:
          >>
          >> (file-error "Cannot open load file" "no such file or directory"
          >> "/home/<user>/.emacs.d/elpa/org-30000101/org-autoloads")
          >>    load("/home/<user>/.emacs.d/elpa/org-30000101/org-autoloads" nil t)
          >>
          >> Is there a way to avoid this?
          >
          > I'm sorry.
          >
          > Usually, I do keep detailed notes on things I do. But when I created
          > this pseudo-package, I did not write down a detailed howto for my
          > future me.
          >
          > But the input for this came from this mailing list. So please search
          > the archive and you might get the original instructions.
          >
          OK, I found the source in this message by Alan Schmitt, to which you replied:
          
          <quote>
          On 2016-01-28 12:33, Karl Voit <devnull@Karl-Voit.at> writes:
          
           >> I’ve had issues with this in the past (I also use org for git). To
           >> make sure org is never installed with elpa, I manually install
           >> (`package-install-file') this org.el file:
           >>
           >> #+begin_src emacs-lisp
           >> ;;; org.el --- Dummy org mode package
           >>
           >> ;; Copyright (C) 2014 Alan Schmitt
           >>
           >> ;; Version: 30000101
           >>
           >> ()
           >>
           >> ;;; org.el ends here
           >> #+end_src
           >
           > There is no "(provide 'org)" or so?
          
          I have not found it necessary. I make sure I load org before
          initializing packages, and everything works.
          
          Alan
          </quote>
          
          Using this recipe, I get also a file org-autoloads.el produced by package.el 
          and everything seems to work.
          
          Cheers,
          
          Christian
          
          
          
          -- 
          Christian Wittern, Kyoto
          
          ^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 30+ messages in thread

    • [parent not found: <WM!fbba205c161c2d01739b0e77a8ccc521b0d6b80e8ba4b6108c74becbbd57ccbdb4003d644b63e3c98578a5b823582b17!@mailhub-mx3.ncl.ac.uk>]

    • • * Re: Preventing Org from being installed by elpa
               [not found]     ` <WM!fbba205c161c2d01739b0e77a8ccc521b0d6b80e8ba4b6108c74becbbd57ccbdb4003d644b63e3c98578a5b823582b17!@mailhub-mx3.ncl.ac.uk>
        @ 2016-12-21 12:40       ` Phillip Lord
          2016-12-21 13:27         ` Karl Voit
          0 siblings, 1 reply; 30+ messages in thread
        From: Phillip Lord @ 2016-12-21 12:40 UTC (permalink / raw)
          To: Karl Voit; +Cc: Karl Voit, emacs-orgmode
        
        Karl Voit <devnull@Karl-Voit.at> writes:
        
        > * Eric Abrahamsen <eric@ericabrahamsen.net> wrote:
        >>
        >> Actually, I have a third: the plain old Org package from the
        >> package repos, because I've installed other packages that require
        >> it. (Another gripe: why isn't the loading of a file containing
        >> (provide 'org) enough to tell the package manager not to install
        >> another one?)
        >
        > I got the tipp of creating «~/.emacs.d/elpa/org-30000101/org-pkg.el»
        > with:
        >   (define-package "org" "30000101" "Dummy org mode package" 'nil)
        >
        > And this simulates the fulfilled dependency so that my git version
        > of Org-mode is the only one installed (besides maybe the default one
        > from Emacs).
        
        
        You could probably do something with package-pinned-packages also.
        
        This is probably something that package.el should support, so when not
        submit a bug report?
        
        ^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 30+ messages in thread

      • • * Re: Preventing Org from being installed by elpa
            2016-12-21 12:40       ` Phillip Lord
          @ 2016-12-21 13:27         ` Karl Voit
                 [not found]           ` <WM!dd5bd1ff96755a23a0384200326165bb89b1fc0144607ae0870bc4237fe325fe903cdff298d097ecb318c066c7b3726c!@mailhub-mx1.ncl.ac.uk>
            0 siblings, 1 reply; 30+ messages in thread
          From: Karl Voit @ 2016-12-21 13:27 UTC (permalink / raw)
            To: emacs-orgmode
          
          * Phillip Lord <phillip.lord@russet.org.uk> wrote:
          > Karl Voit <devnull@Karl-Voit.at> writes:
          >
          >> I got the tipp of creating «~/.emacs.d/elpa/org-30000101/org-pkg.el»
          >> with:
          >>   (define-package "org" "30000101" "Dummy org mode package" 'nil)
          >
          >
          > You could probably do something with package-pinned-packages also.
          
          Hm.
          
          I'm not an expert in package.el or package managers in general but
          isn't "pinning" something different? I thought that pinning is
          "install a package and prevent it from being updated".
          
          Whereas I want to avoid a package to be installed in the first
          place.
          
          -- 
          mail|git|SVN|photos|postings|SMS|phonecalls|RSS|CSV|XML to Org-mode:
                 > get Memacs from https://github.com/novoid/Memacs <
          
          https://github.com/novoid/extract_pdf_annotations_to_orgmode + more on github
          
          ^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 30+ messages in thread

        • • [parent not found: <WM!dd5bd1ff96755a23a0384200326165bb89b1fc0144607ae0870bc4237fe325fe903cdff298d097ecb318c066c7b3726c!@mailhub-mx1.ncl.ac.uk>]

          • • * Re: Preventing Org from being installed by elpa
                     [not found]           ` <WM!dd5bd1ff96755a23a0384200326165bb89b1fc0144607ae0870bc4237fe325fe903cdff298d097ecb318c066c7b3726c!@mailhub-mx1.ncl.ac.uk>
              @ 2016-12-21 14:55             ` Phillip Lord
                0 siblings, 0 replies; 30+ messages in thread
              From: Phillip Lord @ 2016-12-21 14:55 UTC (permalink / raw)
                To: Karl Voit; +Cc: Karl Voit, emacs-orgmode
              
              Karl Voit <devnull@Karl-Voit.at> writes:
              
              > * Phillip Lord <phillip.lord@russet.org.uk> wrote:
              >> Karl Voit <devnull@Karl-Voit.at> writes:
              >>
              >>> I got the tipp of creating «~/.emacs.d/elpa/org-30000101/org-pkg.el»
              >>> with:
              >>>   (define-package "org" "30000101" "Dummy org mode package" 'nil)
              >>
              >>
              >> You could probably do something with package-pinned-packages also.
              >
              > Hm.
              >
              > I'm not an expert in package.el or package managers in general but
              > isn't "pinning" something different? I thought that pinning is
              > "install a package and prevent it from being updated".
              >
              > Whereas I want to avoid a package to be installed in the first
              > place.
              
              
              Pinning is to say "I want this package to come from this place". In this
              case, you want to say "I want this package to come from the file
              system". It seems a related issue.
              
              It's not going to happen unless someone codes it or reports it, though.
              
              Phil
              
              ^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 30+ messages in thread

end of thread, other threads:[~2017-01-16  9:00 UTC | newest]

Thread overview: 30+ messages (download: mbox.gz / follow: Atom feed)
-- links below jump to the message on this page --
2016-12-17 22:43 Remove Org from Emacs repository? Reuben Thomas
2016-12-18  9:22 ` aaermolov
2016-12-18 13:20   ` Carsten Dominik
2016-12-18 13:59     ` Rasmus
2016-12-18 14:41     ` Greg Troxel
2016-12-18 15:53       ` Kaushal Modi
2016-12-18 17:01     ` Reuben Thomas
     [not found]       ` <WM!f754fa008f759b442796c83f07a493b80e9d7ae4298a54f3fabf6b50a6e8ba9da1d361e87e441eae1fe9b1deeb824e68!@mailhub-mx3.ncl.ac.uk>
2016-12-19 15:32         ` Phillip Lord
2016-12-19 15:45           ` Reuben Thomas
2016-12-18 17:11     ` Christian Moe
2016-12-18 18:46       ` Xebar Saram
2016-12-18 19:08         ` Lambda Coder
2016-12-19 18:09     ` Scott Randby
2016-12-18 19:21   ` Samuel Wales
2016-12-18 23:32     ` Reuben Thomas
2016-12-19  1:36       ` MaDhAt2r
2016-12-19 10:42       ` Achim Gratz
     [not found]         ` <WM!759fdf23a4a1bd7b46432ee60644e52fd7beb44781fd97109e1d38080c6611cbecaf3bf7f1ea49cdc6a1823f1a9663ec!@mailhub-mx4.ncl.ac.uk>
2016-12-19 17:14           ` Phillip Lord
2016-12-19 18:53             ` Achim Gratz
     [not found]               ` <WM!fdb65752b64ef5461efbcb948e173a504edcf68a88cb151b38f9292793a941a33217a0cc771607f86b8962c90b171694!@mailhub-mx4.ncl.ac.uk>
2016-12-20 10:13                 ` Phillip Lord
2017-01-16  8:36       ` Erik Colson
2016-12-19  1:52 ` Eric Abrahamsen
2016-12-19  4:42   ` Maria Shinoto
2016-12-20 20:07   ` Preventing Org from being installed by elpa (was: Remove Org from Emacs repository?) Karl Voit
2016-12-21  9:47     ` Preventing Org from being installed by elpa Christian Wittern
2016-12-21 13:25       ` Karl Voit
2016-12-21 23:06         ` Christian Wittern
     [not found]     ` <WM!fbba205c161c2d01739b0e77a8ccc521b0d6b80e8ba4b6108c74becbbd57ccbdb4003d644b63e3c98578a5b823582b17!@mailhub-mx3.ncl.ac.uk>
2016-12-21 12:40       ` Phillip Lord
2016-12-21 13:27         ` Karl Voit
     [not found]           ` <WM!dd5bd1ff96755a23a0384200326165bb89b1fc0144607ae0870bc4237fe325fe903cdff298d097ecb318c066c7b3726c!@mailhub-mx1.ncl.ac.uk>
2016-12-21 14:55             ` Phillip Lord

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