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From: Nicolas Goaziou <mail@nicolasgoaziou.fr>
To: "Bruce D'Arcus" <bdarcus@gmail.com>
Cc: Org Mode List <emacs-orgmode@gnu.org>,
	Denis Maier <denismaier@mailbox.org>
Subject: Re: [wip-cite-new] Adjust punctuation around citations
Date: Sun, 20 Jun 2021 09:41:46 +0200	[thread overview]
Message-ID: <87v969htj9.fsf@nicolasgoaziou.fr> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <CAF-FPGNbkGZfQcmWr9BwvUcG4ZMO+NHLdZcUr0Lr48M+a_gTJg@mail.gmail.com> (Bruce D'Arcus's message of "Mon, 14 Jun 2021 19:37:34 -0400")

Hello,

"Bruce D'Arcus" <bdarcus@gmail.com> writes:

> On Mon, Jun 14, 2021 at 7:45 AM Denis Maier <denismaier@mailbox.org> wrote:

>> * Note style input (=semantically strict input)
>>
>> "A quotation ending with a period." [cite: @hoel-71-whole]
>>
>> "A quotation ending without punctuation". [cite: @hoel-71-whole]
>>
>> As the input preserves the location of punctuation in the original
>> material, I'd say it should be much easier to deal with this. We
>> don't have to add information which isn't in the input, but rather
>> we'll just have to move any punctuation to after the citation
>> object. Maybe I'm missing something, but to me this looks like
>> a much simpler operation than going in the opposite direction.

This cannot be. We don't know anything about the cite after the
quotation. A bare cite could be starting out a new sentence:

  "A quotation ending with a period." [cite: @hoel-71-whole] pretends…

OTOH, we know perfectly when a citation is meant to become a footnote
(at least in basic and csl processors). And we know — almost, as you
demonstrated — where to put that footnote.

Moreover, I think the syntax you propose has another drawback: it
doesn't correspond to any desired output (note or something else). As
this looks artificial, I fear it might hinder readability of the Org
document.

  ... period." [cite:@doe21] [cite/text:@doe21] pretends…

>> Maybe we should stop talking about author date vs note style input, but rather about strict vs. non-strict input.
>
> It's definitely not author-date vs note. I see it as in-text citations
> vs note citations. As in, the former applies to other styles beyond
> author-date.

I think the current patch is purely about note citations. I mentioned
"author-date" in a docstring just because I didn't know how to express
it otherwise. So, in a way, I agree it can be considered as in-text
citations vs note citations, indeed.

> The example you are highlighlighting here was why I was earlier
> suggesting for a rule that would allow something like this input:
>
> "A quotation ending with a period." [cite: @hoel-71-whole].
>
> ... where the second would be dropped, hence getting the expected output.

This is interesting, but we might get false positives, as in the
following (far-fetched) example

  … the so-called "foobar". [cite/text: See @hoel-71-whole p. 42].

which bites us because we need to process even non-note citations to
remove the spurious punctuation while ignoring the necessity of a given
punctuation character.

As another, imperfect, workaround, I submit the following idea for
consideration:

  "A quotation ending without punctuation" [cite: @hoel-71-whole].
  "A quotation ending with a period"[cite: @hoel-71-whole].

IOW, the presence or absence of a space before the citation determines,
according to a note rule, if the punctuation should go inside or outside
the quotation. When processing non-note citations, we just need to
ensure there is at least a space after the previous element, which is
less "dangerous" than removing punctuation.

I find it a bit too subtle, and so error-prone, but so is punctuation
anyway.

WDYT?

Regards,
-- 
Nicolas Goaziou


  parent reply	other threads:[~2021-06-20  7:42 UTC|newest]

Thread overview: 41+ messages / expand[flat|nested]  mbox.gz  Atom feed  top
2021-05-13 21:33 Nicolas Goaziou
2021-05-13 22:14 ` Denis Maier
2021-05-13 23:21 ` Bruce D'Arcus
2021-05-14  8:31   ` Denis Maier
2021-05-14 10:26   ` Nicolas Goaziou
2021-05-14 12:37     ` Bruce D'Arcus
2021-05-14  8:42 ` Denis Maier
2021-05-14 12:28   ` Bruce D'Arcus
2021-05-15 11:56   ` Nicolas Goaziou
2021-05-15 12:03     ` Bruce D'Arcus
2021-05-15 12:43       ` Bruce D'Arcus
2021-05-16 21:29     ` Denis Maier
2021-05-16 21:38       ` Bruce D'Arcus
2021-05-16 22:03         ` Denis Maier via General discussions about Org-mode.
2021-05-16 22:24           ` Bruce D'Arcus
2021-05-17  8:08             ` Denis Maier
2021-06-05 21:35               ` Nicolas Goaziou
2021-06-05 21:45                 ` Bruce D'Arcus
2021-06-05 22:00                   ` Denis Maier
2021-06-12  9:39                     ` Nicolas Goaziou
2021-06-12 21:41                       ` Bruce D'Arcus
2021-06-12 22:04                         ` Nicolas Goaziou
2021-06-12 22:12                           ` Bruce D'Arcus
2021-06-13  8:22                           ` Denis Maier
2021-06-13 21:54                       ` Denis Maier
2021-06-13 22:04                         ` Bruce D'Arcus
2021-06-13 22:23                           ` Denis Maier
2021-06-13 22:47                             ` Bruce D'Arcus
2021-06-14 11:45                               ` Denis Maier
2021-06-14 11:51                                 ` Denis Maier
2021-06-14 23:37                                 ` Bruce D'Arcus
2021-06-14 23:41                                   ` Bruce D'Arcus
2021-06-20  7:41                                   ` Nicolas Goaziou [this message]
2021-06-20 16:37                                     ` Bruce D'Arcus
2021-06-20 17:17                                       ` Nicolas Goaziou
2021-06-21  8:12                                     ` Denis Maier
2021-06-21  8:45                                       ` Nicolas Goaziou
2021-06-21  9:49                                         ` Denis Maier
2021-06-21 10:07                                         ` Denis Maier
2021-05-14 13:39 ` Denis Maier
2021-05-15 11:43   ` Nicolas Goaziou

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