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From: Denis Maier <denismaier@mailbox.org>
To: Bruce D'Arcus <bdarcus@gmail.com>, Org Mode List <emacs-orgmode@gnu.org>
Cc: Nicolas Goaziou <mail@nicolasgoaziou.fr>
Subject: Re: [wip-cite-new] Adjust punctuation around citations
Date: Mon, 14 Jun 2021 13:51:12 +0200	[thread overview]
Message-ID: <2b4568ef-8d0e-c880-b803-e7ce1d10d025@mailbox.org> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <48377c85-5891-3658-d35b-cba1358878a8@mailbox.org>

Just one addition: I think it will be perfectly fine if the current 
suggestion is added now. I guess adding additional features later will 
be always possible, right? I don't know what the plans are for the next 
org release, and I don't want this question here to stand in the way.

Denis

Am 14.06.2021 um 13:45 schrieb Denis Maier:
> Below a few examples of what I mean.
> 
> WDYT? Am I missing something?
> 
> Denis
> ===========================================================
> #+cite_export: csl
> #+cite_export: csl 
> "C:/Users/denis/Zotero/styles/chicago-note-bibliography.csl"
> #+bibliography: test.bib
> 
> * Original source
> 
> "A quotation ending with a period."
> 
> "A quotation ending without punctuation"
> 
> * Author-date style input (= semantically non-strict input)
> 
> "A quotation ending with a period" [cite: @hoel-71-whole].
> 
> "A quotation ending without punctuation" [cite: @hoel-71-whole].
> 
> ** author-date output with language: en-us
> Expected: "A quotation ending with a period" (Hoel 1971).
> Actual:   "A quotation ending with a period" (Hoel 1971).
> 
> Expected: "A quotation ending without punctuation" (Hoel 1971).
> Actual:   "A quotation ending without punctuation" (Hoel 1971).
> 
> => ok
> 
> ** author-date output with language: de
> Expected: "A quotation ending with a period" (Hoel 1971).
> Actual:   "A quotation ending with a period" (Hoel 1971).
> 
> Expected: "A quotation ending without punctuation" (Hoel 1971).
> Actual:   "A quotation ending without punctuation" (Hoel 1971).
> 
> => ok
> 
> ** note style output with language: en-us
> Expected: "A quotation ending with a period."[1]
> Actual:   "A quotation ending with a period."[1]
> 
> Expected: "A quotation ending without punctuation."[1]
> Actual:   "A quotation ending without punctuation."[1]
> 
> => ok
> 
> ** note style output with language: en-gb or de
> Expected: "A quotation ending with a period."[1]
> Actual:   "A quotation ending with a period".[1]
> 
> Expected: "A quotation ending without punctuation".[1]
> Actual:   "A quotation ending without punctuation".[1]
> 
> => Here, we cannot distinguish between the two cases as we don't know 
> whether punctuation appears in the original source.
> 
> * Note style input (=semantically strict input)
> 
> "A quotation ending with a period." [cite: @hoel-71-whole]
> 
> "A quotation ending without punctuation". [cite: @hoel-71-whole]
> 
> As the input preserves the location of punctuation in the original 
> material, I'd say it should be much easier to deal with this. We don't 
> have to add information which isn't in the input, but rather we'll just 
> have to move any punctuation to after the citation object. Maybe I'm 
> missing something, but to me this looks like a much simpler operation 
> than going in the opposite direction.
> 
> Maybe we should stop talking about author date vs note style input, but 
> rather about strict vs. non-strict input. And, I think that's the whole 
> issue: going from strict to non-strict is easy while the other way is 
> more complicated; at least, it would require some more efforts to 
> support the last case (going from non-strict input to note style output 
> with a language that requires strict output.
> =========================================================================
> 
> Am 14.06.2021 um 00:47 schrieb Bruce D'Arcus:
>> I'll let you two sort it out; I don't have a position.
>>
>> On Sun, Jun 13, 2021, 3:23 PM Denis Maier <denismaier@mailbox.org 
>> <mailto:denismaier@mailbox.org>> wrote:
>>
>>
>>>     Bruce D'Arcus <bdarcus@gmail.com <mailto:bdarcus@gmail.com>> hat
>>>     am 14.06.2021 00:04 geschrieben:
>>>
>>>
>>>     Nicolas explained the reverse is out of scope,
>>     IIRC, it was out of scope ATM.
>>>     and gave a reasonable explanation why (because much harder to
>>>     reconstruct missing information IIRC).
>>     That's where I disagree. I think the opposite is true.
>>
>>>     On Sun, Jun 13, 2021, 2:54 PM Denis Maier <denismaier@mailbox.org
>>>     <mailto:denismaier@mailbox.org>> wrote:
>>>
>>>         Am 12.06.2021 um 11:39 schrieb Nicolas Goaziou:
>>>         > Hello,
>>>         >
>>>         > Denis Maier <denismaier@mailbox.org
>>>         <mailto:denismaier@mailbox.org>> writes:
>>>         >
>>>         >> Yes, good this is coming.
>>>         >
>>>         > As a step forward, I rebased wip-cite-new branch with more
>>>         support for
>>>         > note numbers handling.
>>>         >
>>>         > I added three customizable variables:
>>>         >
>>>         > - org-cite-adjust-note-numbers, which simply allows the
>>>         user to toggle
>>>         >    punctuation and note number moving (on by default).
>>>         >
>>>         > - org-cite-note-rules, which defines what rules to apply
>>>         according to
>>>         >    locale, expressed as a language tag, as in RFC 4646.
>>>         >
>>>         > - org-cite-punctuation-marks, which lists strings
>>>         recognized as
>>>         >    punctuation in the process.
>>>         >
>>>         > `csl' and `basic' processors now both make use of this.
>>>         >
>>>         > I'd appreciate some feedback, in particular about the
>>>         docstrings of the
>>>         > variables above. I focused on the "note numbers" topic
>>>         instead of
>>>         > "punctuation" since I found the latter too generic.
>>>         >
>>>         > Also, there are some points that may need to be discussed:
>>>         >
>>>         > - I'm not sure about the `org-cite-punctuation-marks'
>>>         variable being
>>>         >    global, i.e., not locale-specific.
>>>         >
>>>         > - There is no support for this in LaTeX-derived back-ends,
>>>         because
>>>         >    I don't know when a citation is going to become a
>>>         footnote. As
>>>         >    a reminder, there is no "\footcite" command in
>>>         `biblatex' processor.
>>>         >    OTOH, users might prefer using a more advanced
>>>         mechanism, e.g.,
>>>         >    csquotes.
>>>         >
>>>         > - It doesn't do anything special in quote blocks, because
>>>         I'm still not
>>>         >    sure there is something to do. AFAIU, special casing
>>>         there only
>>>         >    applies to author-date location, which out of the scope
>>>         of this code.
>>>         >
>>>         > WDYT?
>>>
>>>         Ok, I've managed to test this a bit, and I think this looks
>>>         pretty good
>>>         so far.
>>>
>>>         The only question I'd still have is if this could somehow
>>>         also cover the
>>>         reverse situation (going from a note style to author-date).
>>>         I've noticed
>>>         that simply adding a new language rule doesn't work
>>>         anymore---as opposed
>>>         to my initial tests with earlier iterations of that
>>>         mechanism. Seems
>>>         like this mechanism is now only triggered when using a note
>>>         based style.
>>>
>>>         Best,
>>>         Denis
>>>
>>>         >
>>>         > Regards,
>>>         >
>>>
> 


  reply	other threads:[~2021-06-14 11:52 UTC|newest]

Thread overview: 41+ messages / expand[flat|nested]  mbox.gz  Atom feed  top
2021-05-13 21:33 Nicolas Goaziou
2021-05-13 22:14 ` Denis Maier
2021-05-13 23:21 ` Bruce D'Arcus
2021-05-14  8:31   ` Denis Maier
2021-05-14 10:26   ` Nicolas Goaziou
2021-05-14 12:37     ` Bruce D'Arcus
2021-05-14  8:42 ` Denis Maier
2021-05-14 12:28   ` Bruce D'Arcus
2021-05-15 11:56   ` Nicolas Goaziou
2021-05-15 12:03     ` Bruce D'Arcus
2021-05-15 12:43       ` Bruce D'Arcus
2021-05-16 21:29     ` Denis Maier
2021-05-16 21:38       ` Bruce D'Arcus
2021-05-16 22:03         ` Denis Maier via General discussions about Org-mode.
2021-05-16 22:24           ` Bruce D'Arcus
2021-05-17  8:08             ` Denis Maier
2021-06-05 21:35               ` Nicolas Goaziou
2021-06-05 21:45                 ` Bruce D'Arcus
2021-06-05 22:00                   ` Denis Maier
2021-06-12  9:39                     ` Nicolas Goaziou
2021-06-12 21:41                       ` Bruce D'Arcus
2021-06-12 22:04                         ` Nicolas Goaziou
2021-06-12 22:12                           ` Bruce D'Arcus
2021-06-13  8:22                           ` Denis Maier
2021-06-13 21:54                       ` Denis Maier
2021-06-13 22:04                         ` Bruce D'Arcus
2021-06-13 22:23                           ` Denis Maier
2021-06-13 22:47                             ` Bruce D'Arcus
2021-06-14 11:45                               ` Denis Maier
2021-06-14 11:51                                 ` Denis Maier [this message]
2021-06-14 23:37                                 ` Bruce D'Arcus
2021-06-14 23:41                                   ` Bruce D'Arcus
2021-06-20  7:41                                   ` Nicolas Goaziou
2021-06-20 16:37                                     ` Bruce D'Arcus
2021-06-20 17:17                                       ` Nicolas Goaziou
2021-06-21  8:12                                     ` Denis Maier
2021-06-21  8:45                                       ` Nicolas Goaziou
2021-06-21  9:49                                         ` Denis Maier
2021-06-21 10:07                                         ` Denis Maier
2021-05-14 13:39 ` Denis Maier
2021-05-15 11:43   ` Nicolas Goaziou

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