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From: Denis Maier <denismaier@mailbox.org>
To: Bruce D'Arcus <bdarcus@gmail.com>, Org Mode List <emacs-orgmode@gnu.org>
Subject: Re: [wip-cite-new] Adjust punctuation around citations
Date: Mon, 17 May 2021 10:08:27 +0200	[thread overview]
Message-ID: <139ff81d-4af6-1e75-f4c9-416032fc514f@mailbox.org> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <CAF-FPGOS8crLgiA2o_28UfFO0iuqVh8==-xxVqRRPSeunE82QA@mail.gmail.com>

Am 17.05.2021 um 00:24 schrieb Bruce D'Arcus:
> On Sun, May 16, 2021 at 6:03 PM Denis Maier
> <denis.maier.lists@mailbox.org> wrote:
>>
>> Am 16.05.2021 um 23:38 schrieb Bruce D'Arcus:
> 
> ....
> 
>>> Can you clarify the rule/situation that would use that approach?
>>>
>>
>> Chicago Manual of Style 15.26:
>> "When the source of a block quotation is given in parentheses at the end
>> of the quotation, the opening parenthesis appears after the final
>> punctuation mark of the quoted material. No period either precedes or
>> follows the closing parenthesis."
> 
> Maybe me and a lot of scholars aren't very good at following these rules :-)
> 
> Or maybe the stuff I read and write doesn't follow Chicago, etc for
> whatever reason.
> 
>> Seems to be the same in MLA and APA by the way:
>> https://writingcenter.uagc.edu/block-quotations
> 
> Very helpful!
> 
> So what are you thinking; this punctuation-manipulation should not
> apply to blockquotes at all?

I think there are a couple of options and combinations thereof:

1. Do nothing special, just treat block quotations like regular paragraphs.

2. Don't apply this punctuation-manipulation to blockquotes at all, i.e. 
let authors handle this manually.

3. Adjust RULE in the manipulation function: Let it accept two patterns:
'((outside outside before) (outside outside after))
The first would apply to inline quotations, the second to blockquotes.

4. IIUC, it's possible to set certain properties at block elements. So, 
maybe you could actually add citation information there, e.g.:

#+BEGIN_QUOTE :cite @doe p.45
This is a blockquote in its own paragraph.
#+END_QUOTE

Unsure about the syntax, but you get the idea. This should allow for 
complex manipulations: the citation can be added before or after the 
punctuation mark; if a journal requires quotation marks even around 
blockquotes => just add them during export; if the period is not part of 
the original quotation you could just do this:

#+BEGIN_QUOTE :cite @doe p.45 :punct .
This is a blockquote in its own paragraph
#+END_QUOTE

Then the period will be added during export, but if a journal wants an 
ellipsis in that case you can also just add that during export.
	This is a blockquote in its own paragraph [...].[1]

Now, this is of course rather complex and might add a lot of overhead. I 
don't think users should be required to use this, but this could 
nevertheless be added as an additional and more powerful mechanism.

5. Don't apply punctuation-manipulation to individual blockquotes.

#+BEGIN_QUOTE :punctuation-manipulation nil
This is a blockquote in its own paragraph. [@doe p. 45]
#+END_QUOTE

(Maybe adding someting like this even for inline citations would be a 
good idea: "asdf." [cite: @doe p. 45 :punctuation-manipulation nil]
I can imagine many users will be happy with the automatism 95% of the 
time, but there will always be egde cases.)

Again, as I've said above, a combination of these options might be the 
way to go. E.g., the default could be to disable 
punctuation-manipulation for blockquotes. In addition to that there 
could also be a properties based mechanism that offers more options. 
(Thinking more about it, 3 and 4 would actually also play nicely together.)

Denis


  reply	other threads:[~2021-05-17  8:09 UTC|newest]

Thread overview: 41+ messages / expand[flat|nested]  mbox.gz  Atom feed  top
2021-05-13 21:33 Nicolas Goaziou
2021-05-13 22:14 ` Denis Maier
2021-05-13 23:21 ` Bruce D'Arcus
2021-05-14  8:31   ` Denis Maier
2021-05-14 10:26   ` Nicolas Goaziou
2021-05-14 12:37     ` Bruce D'Arcus
2021-05-14  8:42 ` Denis Maier
2021-05-14 12:28   ` Bruce D'Arcus
2021-05-15 11:56   ` Nicolas Goaziou
2021-05-15 12:03     ` Bruce D'Arcus
2021-05-15 12:43       ` Bruce D'Arcus
2021-05-16 21:29     ` Denis Maier
2021-05-16 21:38       ` Bruce D'Arcus
2021-05-16 22:03         ` Denis Maier via General discussions about Org-mode.
2021-05-16 22:24           ` Bruce D'Arcus
2021-05-17  8:08             ` Denis Maier [this message]
2021-06-05 21:35               ` Nicolas Goaziou
2021-06-05 21:45                 ` Bruce D'Arcus
2021-06-05 22:00                   ` Denis Maier
2021-06-12  9:39                     ` Nicolas Goaziou
2021-06-12 21:41                       ` Bruce D'Arcus
2021-06-12 22:04                         ` Nicolas Goaziou
2021-06-12 22:12                           ` Bruce D'Arcus
2021-06-13  8:22                           ` Denis Maier
2021-06-13 21:54                       ` Denis Maier
2021-06-13 22:04                         ` Bruce D'Arcus
2021-06-13 22:23                           ` Denis Maier
2021-06-13 22:47                             ` Bruce D'Arcus
2021-06-14 11:45                               ` Denis Maier
2021-06-14 11:51                                 ` Denis Maier
2021-06-14 23:37                                 ` Bruce D'Arcus
2021-06-14 23:41                                   ` Bruce D'Arcus
2021-06-20  7:41                                   ` Nicolas Goaziou
2021-06-20 16:37                                     ` Bruce D'Arcus
2021-06-20 17:17                                       ` Nicolas Goaziou
2021-06-21  8:12                                     ` Denis Maier
2021-06-21  8:45                                       ` Nicolas Goaziou
2021-06-21  9:49                                         ` Denis Maier
2021-06-21 10:07                                         ` Denis Maier
2021-05-14 13:39 ` Denis Maier
2021-05-15 11:43   ` Nicolas Goaziou

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