From: John Kitchin <jkitchin@andrew.cmu.edu>
To: Richard Lawrence <richard.lawrence@berkeley.edu>
Cc: "emacs-orgmode@gnu.org" <emacs-orgmode@gnu.org>
Subject: Re: Citations, continued
Date: Sun, 08 Feb 2015 04:46:15 -0500 [thread overview]
Message-ID: <m2pp9kn3bs.fsf@andrew.cmu.edu> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <CAGLOaCrgPJfU+NTZWGUXH1C7GfAyvoa_UvUBuGB1YDqaJUMJiQ@mail.gmail.com>
My only concern is that it remains possible to support this relatively
full set of citation options on export:
(defcustom org-ref-cite-types
'("cite" "nocite" ;; the default latex cite commands
;; natbib cite commands, http://ctan.unixbrain.com/macros/latex/contrib/natbib/natnotes.pdf
"citet" "citet*" "citep" "citep*"
"citealt" "citealt*" "citealp" "citealp*"
"citenum" "citetext"
"citeauthor" "citeauthor*"
"citeyear" "citeyear*"
"Citet" "Citep" "Citealt" "Citealp" "Citeauthor"
;; biblatex commands
;; http://ctan.mirrorcatalogs.com/macros/latex/contrib/biblatex/doc/biblatex.pdf
"Cite"
"parencite" "Parencite"
"footcite" "footcitetext"
"textcite" "Textcite"
"smartcite" "Smartcite"
"cite*" "parencite*" "supercite"
"autocite" "Autocite" "autocite*" "Autocite*"
"Citeauthor*"
"citetitle" "citetitle*"
"citedate" "citedate*"
"citeurl"
"fullcite" "footfullcite"
;; "volcite" "Volcite" cannot support the syntax
"notecite" "Notecite"
"pnotecite" "Pnotecite"
"fnotecite"
;; multicites. Very limited support for these.
"cites" "Cites" "parencites" "Parencites"
"footcites" "footcitetexts"
"smartcites" "Smartcites" "textcites" "Textcites"
"supercites" "autocites" "Autocites"
;; for the bibentry package
"bibentry"
)
"List of citation types known in org-ref"
:type '(repeat :tag "List of citation types" string)
:group 'org-ref)
which we are currently able to do. I never type any of those in, org-ref
does it automatically from a key selection tool.
From a user point of view, these to me look almost identical to link
syntax, which could be confusing.
[cite:IN-TEXT-KEY]
[cite:IN-TEXT-KEY?:SPACE* CITATIONS]
I don't see the payoff in adding it. you can already have those as
links, and export to pandoc syntac trivial in the first case. The
payoff only comes from item 4 in the list below, with a nested citation,
which I have never seen in the wild in scientific publications. Perhaps
it is more common in other fields.
I don't personally find the pandoc notation easier to understand, eg
[@item] and [-@item]
vs
\cite{item} and \citeauthor{item}
The congruence you mention is not relevant for superscripted references,
there are no brackets or parentheses in that case.
Richard Lawrence writes:
> Hi Nicolas,
>
> I just want to say thanks for continuing the conversation, by the way:
> I know this thread has gotten long, but I'm glad people are still
> paying attention, and Nicolas, your opinion counts for a lot.
>
> On Sat, Feb 7, 2015 at 2:43 PM, Nicolas Goaziou <mail@nicolasgoaziou.fr> wrote:
>
>> What about the following set?
>>
>> bold code entity italic latex-fragment line-break strike-through
>> subscript superscript underline superscript
>
> That would work fine for me in prefixes and suffixes.
>
>> To be clear, much like Rasmus, I don't like much in-text citations
>> syntax above. Actually, I would suggest to mimic footnotes, and handle
>> in-text citations with the same syntax as named footnotes.
>>
>> Using the example from Erik Hetzner in the same thread, what about:
>>
>> 1. [cite:@item1] says blah.
>> 2. [cite:@item1: p. 30] says blah.
>> 3. [cite:@item1: p. 30, with suffix] says blah.
>> 4. [cite:@item1: -@item2 p. 30; see also @item3] says blah.
>> 5. A citation group [cite:: see @item1 p. 34-35; also @item3 chap. 3].
>> 6. Another one [cite::see @item1 p. 34-35].
>> 7. Citation with a suffix and locator [cite:: @item1 pp. 33, 35-37, and nowhere else].
>> 8. A citation without locators [cite:: @item3].
>> 9. Citation with suffix only [cite:: @item1 and nowhere else].
>> 10. Like a citation without author: [cite:: -@item1], and now Doe
>> with a locator [cite:: -@item2 p. 44].
>>
>> explicitly, syntax would be either
>>
>> [cite:IN-TEXT-KEY]
>>
>> or
>>
>> [cite:IN-TEXT-KEY?:SPACE* CITATIONS]
>>
>> where CITATIONS is any number of
>>
>> PREFIX? KEY SUFFIX?
>>
>> separated with semi-colons.
>>
>> It is slightly more verbose, but also more regular and faster to parse.
>
> I guess I could live with this, but to be honest, I much prefer the Pandoc way.
>
> The Pandoc syntax has a nice congruence between the source file and
> the output: if a cite key is inside the brackets in the source, the
> reference is inside the brackets in the output, and if it's outside in
> the source, it's outside in the output. This convention seems
> natural, easy to remember, and very readable -- at least if, like me
> (and I would guess many others), you use author names in cite keys.
>
> By contrast, I'm used to thinking of footnote labels as having no
> direct correlation with the output, so it seems incongruent to use the
> analogous position in citation syntax to represent in-text citations.
>
> So as an author, I prefer the Pandoc way, but I understand there are
> other considerations. If we must have the tag for performance
> reasons, I would prefer using two different tags to represent the two
> cases; I suggest borrowing (from LaTeX's natbib package) "citet" for
> in-text and "citep" for bracketed citations , but I don't really care
> as long as they're easy to type, and it's easy to change one to the
> other.
>
> What do others think?
>
> Best,
> Richard
--
Professor John Kitchin
Doherty Hall A207F
Department of Chemical Engineering
Carnegie Mellon University
Pittsburgh, PA 15213
412-268-7803
@johnkitchin
http://kitchingroup.cheme.cmu.edu
next prev parent reply other threads:[~2015-02-08 9:46 UTC|newest]
Thread overview: 104+ messages / expand[flat|nested] mbox.gz Atom feed top
2015-01-31 18:26 Citations, continued Richard Lawrence
2015-01-31 18:42 ` Nicolas Goaziou
2015-02-01 22:07 ` Richard Lawrence
2015-02-02 13:52 ` Rasmus
2015-02-02 17:25 ` Richard Lawrence
2015-02-02 18:09 ` Rasmus
2015-02-02 15:45 ` Erik Hetzner
2015-02-01 22:06 ` John Kitchin
2015-02-02 1:41 ` Richard Lawrence
2015-02-02 4:43 ` Thomas S. Dye
2015-02-02 13:56 ` John Kitchin
2015-02-02 18:11 ` Thomas S. Dye
2015-02-02 19:38 ` John Kitchin
2015-02-02 19:51 ` John Kitchin
2015-02-02 22:47 ` Rasmus
2015-02-03 0:54 ` Thomas S. Dye
2015-02-03 1:36 ` John Kitchin
2015-02-02 14:17 ` Rasmus
2015-02-02 16:58 ` Richard Lawrence
2015-02-02 14:07 ` Rasmus
2015-02-02 13:51 ` Rasmus
2015-02-02 15:09 ` Matt Price
2015-02-02 18:02 ` Richard Lawrence
2015-02-02 19:55 ` Rasmus
2015-02-03 1:56 ` Richard Lawrence
2015-02-03 2:08 ` Vikas Rawal
2015-02-03 10:55 ` Rasmus
2015-02-04 10:35 ` Julian M. Burgos
2015-02-04 16:34 ` John Kitchin
2015-02-03 10:35 ` Rasmus
2015-02-03 12:00 ` Eric S Fraga
2015-02-03 16:27 ` Richard Lawrence
2015-02-03 17:25 ` Eric S Fraga
2015-02-03 3:58 ` Erik Hetzner
2015-02-03 4:41 ` Richard Lawrence
2015-02-03 7:30 ` Erik Hetzner
2015-02-03 16:11 ` Richard Lawrence
2015-02-04 6:30 ` Erik Hetzner
2015-02-04 12:06 ` Nicolas Goaziou
2015-02-04 16:45 ` Richard Lawrence
2015-02-06 10:27 ` Nicolas Goaziou
2015-02-06 22:41 ` Richard Lawrence
2015-02-07 22:43 ` Nicolas Goaziou
2015-02-08 2:46 ` Richard Lawrence
2015-02-08 9:46 ` John Kitchin [this message]
2015-02-08 17:09 ` Richard Lawrence
2015-02-08 22:23 ` Thomas S. Dye
2015-02-09 8:46 ` e.fraga
2015-02-09 10:50 ` Rasmus
2015-02-09 11:20 ` Nicolas Goaziou
2015-02-09 11:37 ` Rasmus
2015-02-10 9:06 ` Nicolas Goaziou
2015-02-09 15:09 ` Thomas S. Dye
2015-02-10 8:55 ` Nicolas Goaziou
2015-02-10 9:22 ` Rasmus
2015-02-10 9:41 ` Nicolas Goaziou
2015-02-10 10:01 ` Rasmus
2015-02-10 15:32 ` Thomas S. Dye
2015-02-10 1:50 ` John Kitchin
2015-02-09 17:46 ` Richard Lawrence
2015-02-09 20:13 ` Rasmus
2015-02-10 1:32 ` John Kitchin
2015-02-10 4:04 ` Richard Lawrence
2015-02-10 5:23 ` John Kitchin
2015-02-10 6:20 ` Thomas S. Dye
2015-02-08 9:58 ` Nicolas Goaziou
2015-02-08 17:18 ` Richard Lawrence
2015-02-08 18:18 ` Nicolas Goaziou
2015-02-08 9:28 ` Rasmus
2015-02-08 10:18 ` Nicolas Goaziou
2015-02-08 10:50 ` Rasmus
2015-02-08 12:36 ` Nicolas Goaziou
2015-02-08 13:40 ` Rasmus
2015-02-08 16:11 ` Nicolas Goaziou
2015-02-09 10:02 ` Rasmus
2015-02-08 17:02 ` Nicolas Goaziou
2015-02-08 17:29 ` Rasmus
2015-02-10 1:54 ` John Kitchin
2015-02-10 8:49 ` Nicolas Goaziou
2015-02-10 9:20 ` Rasmus
2015-02-10 10:05 ` Nicolas Goaziou
2015-02-10 10:36 ` Rasmus
2015-02-10 10:53 ` Andreas Leha
2015-02-10 15:03 ` John Kitchin
2015-02-10 15:54 ` Rasmus
2015-02-10 16:14 ` John Kitchin
2015-02-10 16:22 ` Richard Lawrence
2015-02-10 16:44 ` Stefan Nobis
2015-02-11 2:07 ` Richard Lawrence
2015-02-11 10:19 ` Stefan Nobis
2015-02-11 16:51 ` Richard Lawrence
2015-02-13 2:31 ` Matt Price
2015-02-11 10:47 ` Aaron Ecay
2015-02-11 11:32 ` Rasmus
2015-02-10 16:04 ` Richard Lawrence
2015-02-11 2:10 ` Thomas S. Dye
2015-02-11 2:48 ` Richard Lawrence
2015-02-11 3:53 ` Thomas S. Dye
2015-02-06 23:37 ` Rasmus
2015-02-06 23:16 ` Rasmus
2015-02-04 17:44 ` Erik Hetzner
2015-02-04 15:59 ` Richard Lawrence
2015-02-04 17:58 ` Erik Hetzner
2015-02-04 19:24 ` Richard Lawrence
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