From: Rasmus <rasmus@gmx.us>
To: emacs-orgmode@gnu.org
Subject: Re: Citations, continued
Date: Tue, 03 Feb 2015 11:35:23 +0100 [thread overview]
Message-ID: <87iofjffkk.fsf@gmx.us> (raw)
In-Reply-To: 87oapblpvc.fsf@berkeley.edu
Richard Lawrence <richard.lawrence@berkeley.edu> writes:
> Hi Rasmus and all,
>
> Thanks for your comments!
>
> Rasmus <rasmus@gmx.us> writes:
>>> #+BEGIN_QUOTE
>>> [See @Doe99, pp. 34--45; also @Doe00:year, section 6]
>>>
>>> [See their article in @Doe99:journal:year.]
>>> #+END_QUOTE
>>
>> First, I think we should use @key for inline and (@key) for parenthesis
>> expressions. This give us two short keys. [@Key ⋯] can be reserved for
>> complicated references.
>
> That sounds fine to me. I think you may be using `inline' differently
> than me, though: do you mean `author's name appears in the text (not in
> parentheses)'? (I was using it to talk about where the citation
> definition appears in the document, not where the author's name appears
> relative to parentheses.)
I applied my usecase which is \textcite and \parentcite. The point it
that you have got two types of citations at hand: could be \textcite and
\footcite if you care more for that.
>> I don't like "@Doe99:journal:year". It's too unlike existing syntax.
>
> I agree it's a little clunky, but I think most of the time there would
> just be one selector. I was thinking of this on analogy with heading
> properties and tags...is there a better existing syntax to refer to a
> property value?
Perhaps it's similar to properties and tags. I have key values in mind
which are either key:value or :key value as in OPTIONS lines and
MY_KEYWORD lines... Perhaps it is not the correct reference.
>> Rather, I'd just introduce types as hinted previously, [@Doe99 :type
>> my-journal-year-type]. Org can provide as many predefined :type as we
>> care for, and let the user define the rest as necessary.
>
> I don't like this, because it seems like a lot more work for me as a
> user to achieve something that should be simple, and it trades
> specifying /what/ data I want for describing it more indirectly.
>
> Suppose I'm writing a document, and I know I just want to reference the
> journal and year of a particular publication, in that order. Being a
> studious keeper of my org-bibtex database, I already know that these
> fields are called "journal" and "year". But if, in addition to
> reference database field names, I have to remember names for /types/ of
> /combinations/ of field names, that's too much.
Reftex will do this for you.
> I'll end up taking endless trips to the manual to figure out which type
> I need in this case. Do I need :type journal-before-year? :type
> journal-and-year? etc. This feels a bit too much like having to
> remember (or look up) all the different LaTeX citation commands.
Might be true. I don't expect that problem much.
> What about just separating the field names off, as keys? Like:
>
> [See Doe's review @Doe99 :journal :year]
That looks much better ("Org-ish"), though it implies
[See Doe's review @Doe99 :journal nil :year nil]
Which is kind of the opposite of the desired... Or perhaps I'm just
misreading it.
>>> When specific fields are requested, ONLY data from those fields should
>>> appear in the exported document. Backends would choose how to export
>>> these citations based on the selected fields.
>>
>> What happens when a field is undefined?
>
> I guess I would suggest the same thing as happens in LaTeX: you get a
> nice, bold "??" in the output where the missing data should be.
Or better, throw an error.
>> I think R-markdown uses something like [-@Smith79]. Again, I don't like
>> the [@key:nocite].
>
> Doesn't [-@Smith79] mean something different, namely, "cite @Smith79
> without the author name"? It produces output like: "(1979)".
Thanks for the clarification.
>>> #+BEGIN_QUOTE
>>> * Citations
>>>
>>> #+ATTR_LATEX: :command citet
>>> #+ATTR_HTML: :class my-citation
>>> [cite:1] See @Doe99, pp. 34--45; @Foobar2000, ch.1.
>>> #+END_QUOTE
>>
>> Why not. Since footnote-definition is a greater element it /does/ take
>> affiliated keywords, but I have never seen this used.
>
> Right, that's the point here...(were you disagreeing?)
No.
>> For inline maybe something like this:
>> [@Key :type_html my-citation :type_latex citet]
>
> Actually, this is a lot like the syntax I was thinking about for the
> inline case, but in the end I thought it was too complicated and new to
> be worth it, when the #+ATTR_BACKEND syntax will already work for the
> out-of-line case. I'm not opposed to something like this in principle,
> but I really think we should try to keep the inline case very simple and
> obvious to use, even if that means restricting its expressiveness a bit.
The thing is it makes it very readable and obvious. You can fix display
issues separately if you want.
>> From experience, the biblatex model of separating the loading of files,
>> styles and printing into different commands is a great advantage.
>
> OK. I'd even be happy with
>
> #+BIBLIOGRAPHY:
> #+BIBLIGRAPHY_STYLE:
> #+PRINT_BIBLIOGRAPHY:
>
> where the first could be specified as many times as desired, to indicate
> external reference databases.
Yeah, I had those in an earlier draft. My only issue is
that #+PRINT_BIBLIOGRAPHY: is awkward if nothing comes after the ':'.
>>> The point of specifying the style and locale as part of
>>> the #+BIBLIOGRAPHY definition is for compatibility with both LaTeX and
>>> Citation Style Language bibliography and citation formatting.
>>
>> Local is defined by #+LANGUAGE. AFAIK, Org doesn't support many
>> languages. E.g. here's the definition of LANGUAGE in ox.el:
>>
>> (:language "LANGUAGE" nil org-export-default-language t)
>
> Ah, OK, I didn't know about #+LANGUAGE. Is there any reason why the
> locale of the bibliography might be different than the locale of the
> document? (I'm monolingual, I'm afraid, so I doubt I could think of one
> if there were...)
AFAIK, #+LANGUAGE is a single element, e.g. 'en' or 'de'. With ox-latex
you can load several languages via babel and org-latex-packages-alist.
Loading locals via other mechanism seems like a bug.
—Rasmus
--
With monopolies the cake is a lie!
next prev parent reply other threads:[~2015-02-03 10:35 UTC|newest]
Thread overview: 104+ messages / expand[flat|nested] mbox.gz Atom feed top
2015-01-31 18:26 Citations, continued Richard Lawrence
2015-01-31 18:42 ` Nicolas Goaziou
2015-02-01 22:07 ` Richard Lawrence
2015-02-02 13:52 ` Rasmus
2015-02-02 17:25 ` Richard Lawrence
2015-02-02 18:09 ` Rasmus
2015-02-02 15:45 ` Erik Hetzner
2015-02-01 22:06 ` John Kitchin
2015-02-02 1:41 ` Richard Lawrence
2015-02-02 4:43 ` Thomas S. Dye
2015-02-02 13:56 ` John Kitchin
2015-02-02 18:11 ` Thomas S. Dye
2015-02-02 19:38 ` John Kitchin
2015-02-02 19:51 ` John Kitchin
2015-02-02 22:47 ` Rasmus
2015-02-03 0:54 ` Thomas S. Dye
2015-02-03 1:36 ` John Kitchin
2015-02-02 14:17 ` Rasmus
2015-02-02 16:58 ` Richard Lawrence
2015-02-02 14:07 ` Rasmus
2015-02-02 13:51 ` Rasmus
2015-02-02 15:09 ` Matt Price
2015-02-02 18:02 ` Richard Lawrence
2015-02-02 19:55 ` Rasmus
2015-02-03 1:56 ` Richard Lawrence
2015-02-03 2:08 ` Vikas Rawal
2015-02-03 10:55 ` Rasmus
2015-02-04 10:35 ` Julian M. Burgos
2015-02-04 16:34 ` John Kitchin
2015-02-03 10:35 ` Rasmus [this message]
2015-02-03 12:00 ` Eric S Fraga
2015-02-03 16:27 ` Richard Lawrence
2015-02-03 17:25 ` Eric S Fraga
2015-02-03 3:58 ` Erik Hetzner
2015-02-03 4:41 ` Richard Lawrence
2015-02-03 7:30 ` Erik Hetzner
2015-02-03 16:11 ` Richard Lawrence
2015-02-04 6:30 ` Erik Hetzner
2015-02-04 12:06 ` Nicolas Goaziou
2015-02-04 16:45 ` Richard Lawrence
2015-02-06 10:27 ` Nicolas Goaziou
2015-02-06 22:41 ` Richard Lawrence
2015-02-07 22:43 ` Nicolas Goaziou
2015-02-08 2:46 ` Richard Lawrence
2015-02-08 9:46 ` John Kitchin
2015-02-08 17:09 ` Richard Lawrence
2015-02-08 22:23 ` Thomas S. Dye
2015-02-09 8:46 ` e.fraga
2015-02-09 10:50 ` Rasmus
2015-02-09 11:20 ` Nicolas Goaziou
2015-02-09 11:37 ` Rasmus
2015-02-10 9:06 ` Nicolas Goaziou
2015-02-09 15:09 ` Thomas S. Dye
2015-02-10 8:55 ` Nicolas Goaziou
2015-02-10 9:22 ` Rasmus
2015-02-10 9:41 ` Nicolas Goaziou
2015-02-10 10:01 ` Rasmus
2015-02-10 15:32 ` Thomas S. Dye
2015-02-10 1:50 ` John Kitchin
2015-02-09 17:46 ` Richard Lawrence
2015-02-09 20:13 ` Rasmus
2015-02-10 1:32 ` John Kitchin
2015-02-10 4:04 ` Richard Lawrence
2015-02-10 5:23 ` John Kitchin
2015-02-10 6:20 ` Thomas S. Dye
2015-02-08 9:58 ` Nicolas Goaziou
2015-02-08 17:18 ` Richard Lawrence
2015-02-08 18:18 ` Nicolas Goaziou
2015-02-08 9:28 ` Rasmus
2015-02-08 10:18 ` Nicolas Goaziou
2015-02-08 10:50 ` Rasmus
2015-02-08 12:36 ` Nicolas Goaziou
2015-02-08 13:40 ` Rasmus
2015-02-08 16:11 ` Nicolas Goaziou
2015-02-09 10:02 ` Rasmus
2015-02-08 17:02 ` Nicolas Goaziou
2015-02-08 17:29 ` Rasmus
2015-02-10 1:54 ` John Kitchin
2015-02-10 8:49 ` Nicolas Goaziou
2015-02-10 9:20 ` Rasmus
2015-02-10 10:05 ` Nicolas Goaziou
2015-02-10 10:36 ` Rasmus
2015-02-10 10:53 ` Andreas Leha
2015-02-10 15:03 ` John Kitchin
2015-02-10 15:54 ` Rasmus
2015-02-10 16:14 ` John Kitchin
2015-02-10 16:22 ` Richard Lawrence
2015-02-10 16:44 ` Stefan Nobis
2015-02-11 2:07 ` Richard Lawrence
2015-02-11 10:19 ` Stefan Nobis
2015-02-11 16:51 ` Richard Lawrence
2015-02-13 2:31 ` Matt Price
2015-02-11 10:47 ` Aaron Ecay
2015-02-11 11:32 ` Rasmus
2015-02-10 16:04 ` Richard Lawrence
2015-02-11 2:10 ` Thomas S. Dye
2015-02-11 2:48 ` Richard Lawrence
2015-02-11 3:53 ` Thomas S. Dye
2015-02-06 23:37 ` Rasmus
2015-02-06 23:16 ` Rasmus
2015-02-04 17:44 ` Erik Hetzner
2015-02-04 15:59 ` Richard Lawrence
2015-02-04 17:58 ` Erik Hetzner
2015-02-04 19:24 ` Richard Lawrence
Reply instructions:
You may reply publicly to this message via plain-text email
using any one of the following methods:
* Save the following mbox file, import it into your mail client,
and reply-to-all from there: mbox
Avoid top-posting and favor interleaved quoting:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Posting_style#Interleaved_style
List information: https://www.orgmode.org/
* Reply using the --to, --cc, and --in-reply-to
switches of git-send-email(1):
git send-email \
--in-reply-to=87iofjffkk.fsf@gmx.us \
--to=rasmus@gmx.us \
--cc=emacs-orgmode@gnu.org \
/path/to/YOUR_REPLY
https://kernel.org/pub/software/scm/git/docs/git-send-email.html
* If your mail client supports setting the In-Reply-To header
via mailto: links, try the mailto: link
Be sure your reply has a Subject: header at the top and a blank line
before the message body.
Code repositories for project(s) associated with this public inbox
https://git.savannah.gnu.org/cgit/emacs/org-mode.git
This is a public inbox, see mirroring instructions
for how to clone and mirror all data and code used for this inbox;
as well as URLs for read-only IMAP folder(s) and NNTP newsgroup(s).