From: Rasmus <rasmus@gmx.us>
To: emacs-orgmode@gnu.org
Subject: Re: Citations, continued
Date: Mon, 09 Feb 2015 21:13:56 +0100 [thread overview]
Message-ID: <874mqug7wb.fsf@gmx.us> (raw)
In-Reply-To: 86wq3rrn9g.fsf@berkeley.edu
Richard Lawrence <richard.lawrence@berkeley.edu> writes:
> tsd@tsdye.com (Thomas S. Dye) writes:
>
>> IIUC, Org mode citation syntax needs to capture four pieces of
>> information for an *individual* citation: a =key= into one or more
>> stores of bibliographic information; a =citation-command= that is
>> understood by the =citation-style= specified for the document; a
>> =pre-note= of arbitrary text in any language; and a =post-note= of
>> arbitrary text in any language. At least, this is how the LaTeX world
>> accommodates the almost unconstrained and ever-growing variability in
>> bibliographic styles in the wild.
>
> I think the key, pre-note and post-note are common ground, and everyone
> agrees that they need to be represented in a citation syntax.
False. There has been discussions as to whether prenote should be
included for inline citations.
> Thus, I think the right question to ask is: which distinctions are both
> *simple enough* and *important enough* that they are worth encoding in
> Org syntax and supporting in non-LaTeX backends? I think that is the
> right place to draw the line between features of citations that are
> encoded in `citation syntax proper' vs. `escape hatches' that give more
> information about how to format a citation in a particular backend.
Ideally we find TOOL that can handle this. Worse case: bibtex.el, but
hopefully something less bare-bone, that knows about styles would be
great. E.g. "Zotero for html" or similar.
> My sense is that a lot of the complexity in LaTeX citations should fall
> in the latter category, but we need to think more about what falls in
> the first category.
I don't know. If you think of a type as a receipt it makes sense to allow
it to some extend, I guess. Most LaTeX "receipts" very easy to use 'cause
somebody took care of the details.
> But in response to a question from Rasmus, Tom also suggested that
> multi-cites are a candidate, in addition to the in-text/parenthetical
> distinction:
Multicite is pretty easy. A couple of days ago I showed that you can even
do it with the current link syntax.
Examples:
\textcites(pre-both)(post-both)[pre1][post1]{bohringer14}[pre2][post2]{davis14}
→ pre-both Böhringer et al. (pre1 2014, post1) and Davis and Schiraldi (pre2
2014, post2), post-both
\parencites(pre-both)(post-both)[pre1][post1]{bohringer14}[pre2][post2]{davis14}
→ (pre-both pre1 Böhringer et al. 2014, post1; pre2 Davis and Schiraldi 2014, post2, post-both)
But multicite is surely a ox-latex feature, but it's just a convenience
wrapper around normal cite commands which can be constructed using
primitives, namely :author, :year :pre and :post. You could imagine
something like
[cite: pre-both; pre1 @k1 post1; pre2 @k2 post2; post-both]
Which could be simplified to
[cite: pre-both pre1 @k1 post1; pre2 @k2 post2 post-both]
> As for supporting the `escape hatch' category, it seems that more
> thought is needed here, too. Right now, the #+ATTR_BACKEND syntax is
> the only way I know of to specify arbitrary export properties for a
> piece of Org syntax.
From a user perspective, links take a backend argument.
> So maybe we need some kind of inline syntax for backend-specific
> properties of citations, perhaps along the lines that Rasmus has
> suggested. I think this could be a good idea; my only concern is that
> we make a clear separation between this syntax and the main syntax for
> citations. There are two reasons for this: if we don't clearly make
> this separation, then (1) it becomes much harder to figure out and agree
> on which distinctions should be expressed in `the' citation syntax; and
> (2) there is a danger that the complexity of backend-specific properties
> will bleed over into the main citation syntax, which all backends have
> to support.
Those are indeed valid concerns. One reason why I like :type is that all
complexity is hidden away somewhere else. Much like links. This may not
be a good thing. I'm heating up on (my interpretation) of Nicolas
idea:
[cite: pre-both; pre1 @k1 post1; pre2 @k2 post2; post-both]
It's still an improvement (though small) over links, and you might still
get one "free" type which can be expressed as [@k].
—Rasmus
--
What will be next?
next prev parent reply other threads:[~2015-02-09 20:14 UTC|newest]
Thread overview: 104+ messages / expand[flat|nested] mbox.gz Atom feed top
2015-01-31 18:26 Citations, continued Richard Lawrence
2015-01-31 18:42 ` Nicolas Goaziou
2015-02-01 22:07 ` Richard Lawrence
2015-02-02 13:52 ` Rasmus
2015-02-02 17:25 ` Richard Lawrence
2015-02-02 18:09 ` Rasmus
2015-02-02 15:45 ` Erik Hetzner
2015-02-01 22:06 ` John Kitchin
2015-02-02 1:41 ` Richard Lawrence
2015-02-02 4:43 ` Thomas S. Dye
2015-02-02 13:56 ` John Kitchin
2015-02-02 18:11 ` Thomas S. Dye
2015-02-02 19:38 ` John Kitchin
2015-02-02 19:51 ` John Kitchin
2015-02-02 22:47 ` Rasmus
2015-02-03 0:54 ` Thomas S. Dye
2015-02-03 1:36 ` John Kitchin
2015-02-02 14:17 ` Rasmus
2015-02-02 16:58 ` Richard Lawrence
2015-02-02 14:07 ` Rasmus
2015-02-02 13:51 ` Rasmus
2015-02-02 15:09 ` Matt Price
2015-02-02 18:02 ` Richard Lawrence
2015-02-02 19:55 ` Rasmus
2015-02-03 1:56 ` Richard Lawrence
2015-02-03 2:08 ` Vikas Rawal
2015-02-03 10:55 ` Rasmus
2015-02-04 10:35 ` Julian M. Burgos
2015-02-04 16:34 ` John Kitchin
2015-02-03 10:35 ` Rasmus
2015-02-03 12:00 ` Eric S Fraga
2015-02-03 16:27 ` Richard Lawrence
2015-02-03 17:25 ` Eric S Fraga
2015-02-03 3:58 ` Erik Hetzner
2015-02-03 4:41 ` Richard Lawrence
2015-02-03 7:30 ` Erik Hetzner
2015-02-03 16:11 ` Richard Lawrence
2015-02-04 6:30 ` Erik Hetzner
2015-02-04 12:06 ` Nicolas Goaziou
2015-02-04 16:45 ` Richard Lawrence
2015-02-06 10:27 ` Nicolas Goaziou
2015-02-06 22:41 ` Richard Lawrence
2015-02-07 22:43 ` Nicolas Goaziou
2015-02-08 2:46 ` Richard Lawrence
2015-02-08 9:46 ` John Kitchin
2015-02-08 17:09 ` Richard Lawrence
2015-02-08 22:23 ` Thomas S. Dye
2015-02-09 8:46 ` e.fraga
2015-02-09 10:50 ` Rasmus
2015-02-09 11:20 ` Nicolas Goaziou
2015-02-09 11:37 ` Rasmus
2015-02-10 9:06 ` Nicolas Goaziou
2015-02-09 15:09 ` Thomas S. Dye
2015-02-10 8:55 ` Nicolas Goaziou
2015-02-10 9:22 ` Rasmus
2015-02-10 9:41 ` Nicolas Goaziou
2015-02-10 10:01 ` Rasmus
2015-02-10 15:32 ` Thomas S. Dye
2015-02-10 1:50 ` John Kitchin
2015-02-09 17:46 ` Richard Lawrence
2015-02-09 20:13 ` Rasmus [this message]
2015-02-10 1:32 ` John Kitchin
2015-02-10 4:04 ` Richard Lawrence
2015-02-10 5:23 ` John Kitchin
2015-02-10 6:20 ` Thomas S. Dye
2015-02-08 9:58 ` Nicolas Goaziou
2015-02-08 17:18 ` Richard Lawrence
2015-02-08 18:18 ` Nicolas Goaziou
2015-02-08 9:28 ` Rasmus
2015-02-08 10:18 ` Nicolas Goaziou
2015-02-08 10:50 ` Rasmus
2015-02-08 12:36 ` Nicolas Goaziou
2015-02-08 13:40 ` Rasmus
2015-02-08 16:11 ` Nicolas Goaziou
2015-02-09 10:02 ` Rasmus
2015-02-08 17:02 ` Nicolas Goaziou
2015-02-08 17:29 ` Rasmus
2015-02-10 1:54 ` John Kitchin
2015-02-10 8:49 ` Nicolas Goaziou
2015-02-10 9:20 ` Rasmus
2015-02-10 10:05 ` Nicolas Goaziou
2015-02-10 10:36 ` Rasmus
2015-02-10 10:53 ` Andreas Leha
2015-02-10 15:03 ` John Kitchin
2015-02-10 15:54 ` Rasmus
2015-02-10 16:14 ` John Kitchin
2015-02-10 16:22 ` Richard Lawrence
2015-02-10 16:44 ` Stefan Nobis
2015-02-11 2:07 ` Richard Lawrence
2015-02-11 10:19 ` Stefan Nobis
2015-02-11 16:51 ` Richard Lawrence
2015-02-13 2:31 ` Matt Price
2015-02-11 10:47 ` Aaron Ecay
2015-02-11 11:32 ` Rasmus
2015-02-10 16:04 ` Richard Lawrence
2015-02-11 2:10 ` Thomas S. Dye
2015-02-11 2:48 ` Richard Lawrence
2015-02-11 3:53 ` Thomas S. Dye
2015-02-06 23:37 ` Rasmus
2015-02-06 23:16 ` Rasmus
2015-02-04 17:44 ` Erik Hetzner
2015-02-04 15:59 ` Richard Lawrence
2015-02-04 17:58 ` Erik Hetzner
2015-02-04 19:24 ` Richard Lawrence
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