Re: Beamer support in Org-mode

From: Carsten Dominik <carsten.dominik@gmail.com>
To: Darlan Cavalcante Moreira <darcamo@gmail.com>
Cc: Russell Adams <RLAdams@AdamsInfoServ.Com>, emacs-orgmode@gnu.org
Subject: Re: Beamer support in Org-mode
Date: Mon, 4 Jan 2010 16:30:47 +0100	[thread overview]
Message-ID: <38739911-71C1-4C52-AC00-25BE5620591C@gmail.com> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <4b420007.0604c00a.63a8.ffffafc6@mx.google.com>

On Jan 4, 2010, at 3:49 PM, Darlan Cavalcante Moreira wrote:

>
> If a B_note tag is used in a headline for notes, it has the  
> advantage that it
> will be easier to see all the notes in the document (slides with  
> notes). Also,
> it would be easier to customize if the notes should be exported for  
> other
> formats other then beamer (since the user could simple exclude the  
> B_note tag).
>
> Regarding the headline itself, I think it would be better to ignore  
> it. AFAIK it
> is not possible to set a title for a note slide and using the  
> headline as the
> first note would limit what could be put in the first note.

What I meant as an alternative would be to treat the headline as if it  
would be part of the normal text - which would make it easier to make  
simple, single-line notes.

So

    *** this is a note  :B_note:
	with more text

would actually translate to

  \note{This is a note
   with more text}

>
> On the other hand, if #+BEGIN_BEAMER_NOTE ... #+END_BEAMER_NOTE is  
> used instead
> of a headline then org could advertise the use of yasnippets in the
> documentation and maybe also provide a snippet for this. Therefore,  
> writing the
> notes environment wouldn't be much of a problem, but a way of  
> avoiding exporting
> beamer notes to other formats would have to be implemented.

That would be simple.  Beamer support hooks into ORg in many places,  
and we could simple use one of those hooks to remove these for  
everything that is not bermer export.

But what would be the advantage of using the #+BEGIN.... construct?
Maybe that you could define it in the middle of the plain list....

- Carsten

>
> - Darlan Cavalcante Moreira
>
> At Mon, 4 Jan 2010 10:07:10 +0100,
> Carsten Dominik <carsten.dominik@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>> On Jan 4, 2010, at 12:22 AM, Russell Adams wrote:
>>
>>> Carsten,
>>>
>>> I've seen properties and sub-headlines proposed, but what about
>>> something like this, using quoting style to separate the notes from
>>> the slide?
>>>
>>> ** Slide
>>>
>>> - Slide content
>>> - Slide content
>>>
>>> #+BEGIN_BEAMER_NOTE
>>> Here are the class notes for this slide...
>>>
>>> #+END_BEAMER_NOTE
>>
>>
>> That is a possibility, but a lot of hassle to type for a short note.
>> Admittedly, properties are just as messy.
>>
>> Maybe it should be
>>
>> * BNOTE Here are the class notes for this slide...
>>   more stuff....
>>
>> - Carsten
>>>
>>> Maybe I'm coming in on the debate late...
>>>
>>> Thanks.
>>>
>>>
>>> On Sun, Jan 03, 2010 at 08:07:29PM +0100, Carsten Dominik wrote:
>>>> Hi everyone,
>>>>
>>>> after contemplating the \pnote proposal for beamer notes, I don't
>>>> think that this is, in the end, the right solution.
>>>>
>>>> Can't we just use headings with a TODO keyword BNOTE or with  
>>>> property
>>>> BNOTE
>>>> or so as the sources of notes?
>>>>
>>>> Or, even simpler, Or we could use a special value "note"
>>>> in the the BEAMER_env property to mark notes.  This would be easy  
>>>> to
>>>> turn
>>>> on with the special editing code we already have, would  
>>>> automatically
>>>> be tracked by a B_note tag and in this way stay visible.
>>>>
>>>> Using marked nodes would avoid choosing a specific level for
>>>> such notes, and give the biggest flexibility.
>>>>
>>>> If we do this, then the following problem arises:  An outline
>>>> node always has a headline and content.  What should be do
>>>> with the headline?  Should be throw it away?  Or just make it
>>>> part of the note text?  Maybe that would make the most sense.
>>>>
>>>> Input is again welcome!
>>>>
>>>> - Carsten
>>>>
>>>> On Dec 20, 2009, at 4:08 PM, Darlan Cavalcante Moreira wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> I also liked this idea. Since beamer does not track where the  
>>>>> \note
>>>>> command is
>>>>> used inside the frame and just puts every note from that frame in
>>>>> the
>>>>> next
>>>>> "notes slide", then there is no loss if org-mode put several \note
>>>>> commands in
>>>>> the end of the frame environment when exporting. Therefore, a
>>>>> headline
>>>>> below the
>>>>> frame headline seems to be a good approach.
>>>>>
>>>>> Also, if the beamer notes are not desired when exporting to other
>>>>> formats one
>>>>> could add a tag to the "notes headline" and use the already
>>>>> available
>>>>> feature of
>>>>> not exporting headlines with a given tag.
>>>>>
>>>>> - Darlan Cavalcante Moreira
>>>>>
>>>>> At Sat, 19 Dec 2009 12:33:14 -1000,
>>>>> "Thomas S. Dye" <tsd@tsdye.com> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Hi Daniel,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Dec 18, 2009, at 11:01 AM, Daniel Martins wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> \pnote could be an option
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Another idea is to reserve the lowest level to notes
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> * section
>>>>>>> ** subsection
>>>>>>> *** frame
>>>>>>> etc
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> ************** notes
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> (I don't know how many *'s are needed)
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> maybe we can set a number / variable
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> like
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> org-beamer-frame-level
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> we could create
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> org-beamer-notes-level
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Daniel
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> 2009/12/18 Nick Dokos <nicholas.dokos@hp.com>:
>>>>>>>> Adam Spiers <orgmode@adamspiers.org> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On Tue, Dec 15, 2009 at 04:49:23PM -0300, Darlan Cavalcante
>>>>>>>>> Moreira wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> In addition, while I also agree that footnotes shouldn't be
>>>>>>>>>> in a
>>>>>>>>>> presentation
>>>>>>>>>> they are allowed when working with beamer and may be useful  
>>>>>>>>>> in
>>>>>>>>>> some cases. If
>>>>>>>>>> org-mode export footnotes as beamer notes then some months  
>>>>>>>>>> from
>>>>>>>>>> now someone
>>>>>>>>>> would be asking here in the mailing-list how to enter a
>>>>>>>>>> standard
>>>>>>>>>> footnote when
>>>>>>>>>> exporting to beamer.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I agree - unfortunately there are genuinely sensible uses of
>>>>>>>>> footnotes
>>>>>>>>> in presentations.  For example, citation of sources for
>>>>>>>>> quotations,
>>>>>>>>> data etc. is ideally accomplished by footnotes: they are not
>>>>>>>>> used
>>>>>>>>> during the presentation itself, but by distributing paper  
>>>>>>>>> and/or
>>>>>>>>> electronic copies after the talk, footnotes provide essential
>>>>>>>>> reference data for perusal by the audience at a later date.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I think that's an argument *for* Eric's idea (assuming that the
>>>>>>>> handout
>>>>>>>> includes notes - that's my practice, but maybe not everybody  
>>>>>>>> does
>>>>>>>> that,
>>>>>>>> although they *should* :-) ).
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> In general, I think slides should be very simple: single-level
>>>>>>>> lists,
>>>>>>>> single idea per slide, no footnotes - but I know that
>>>>>>>> generalities
>>>>>>>> like
>>>>>>>> that are just guidelines: meant to be broken, given a good  
>>>>>>>> enough
>>>>>>>> cause.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Imagine a slide showing the results of a benchmark, claiming
>>>>>>>>> "X is
>>>>>>>>> much faster than Y!"  You might want to talk briefly about how
>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>> results were obtained, and about the impact of the results,  
>>>>>>>>> but
>>>>>>>>> you
>>>>>>>>> would also need to be able to tell the audience they could
>>>>>>>>> independently verify the results by obtaining a copy of the
>>>>>>>>> slides
>>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>> visiting the URL contained in the footnote - especially if the
>>>>>>>>> results
>>>>>>>>> are controversial!  In this case, it would not matter that the
>>>>>>>>> URL
>>>>>>>>> was
>>>>>>>>> too small to be legible from the back of the room.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> How does inverting Eric's idea sound: invent a new kind of
>>>>>>>> footnote,
>>>>>>>> let's call it, say, a "pnote", which is treated exactly like a
>>>>>>>> footnote in
>>>>>>>> all exports *except* beamer. In beamer, footnotes end up in the
>>>>>>>> frame
>>>>>>>> and pnotes end up in the notes.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Not sure whether the implementation would be as simple as this
>>>>>>>> makes it
>>>>>>>> sound, but who knows?[1]
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>>>>> Nick
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> [1] Well, OK: Carsten knows...
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> FWIW, I like this idea.  I think it tracks the mapping between
>>>>>> beamer
>>>>>> and LaTeX very well.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> In my experience, beamer slide shows are an aid in the spoken
>>>>>> presentation of a LaTeX article.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Beamer does a good job of mapping the higher level LaTeX  
>>>>>> sectioning
>>>>>> commands, with some themes that automatically display down to
>>>>>> subsection.  To my mind, frames in beamer capture lower-level
>>>>>> structure (e.g. subsubsection, paragraph, subparagraph) in their
>>>>>> (often over-used) bulleted lists, and (more appropriately) the
>>>>>> photographs, diagrams, maps etc. that are inserted as figures in
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> LaTeX article.  As others on the list have noted, LaTeX footnotes
>>>>>> also
>>>>>> map fairly directly to beamer footnotes.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> This leaves most of the text of the article, which from my
>>>>>> perspective
>>>>>> maps to beamer notes.  Marking off notes with the headline below
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> last one that deals with frames and their paraphernalia seems
>>>>>> natural
>>>>>> to me.  The typical org-mode file that exports to LaTeX will have
>>>>>> big
>>>>>> chunks that transfer very readily to the notes sections of a  
>>>>>> beamer
>>>>>> presentation.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I don't know whether the idea makes sense from the point of  
>>>>>> view of
>>>>>> implementation, though, because I can't really read the org-mode
>>>>>> Lisp
>>>>>> code owing to my own illiteracy.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> All the best,
>>>>>> Tom
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
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>>>>>
>>>>>
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>>>>
>>>> - Carsten
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
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>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> Russell Adams                            RLAdams@AdamsInfoServ.com
>>>
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>>>
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>>>
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>>
>> - Carsten
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
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- Carsten