[OT] Defining System, process, methodology and framework

[OT] Defining System, process, methodology and framework

[Marcelo de Moraes Serpa]

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Hi guys,

I know there are quite a few smart brains around here, and I think this is
valid discussion for this mailing list, even if OT.

I'm not a cientist, nor work inside an academic environment. I'm just a
regular guy trying to understand this world and making better use of my
resources, specially time. For this, I have read dozens of books on
personal productivity, including GTD, Making it All Work, and Work the
System. All great books.

I've started to notice a pattern though. All of them talk about systems and
processes (and some might even use the word framework and methodology / or
method), and although you can live by and be quite productivity if you
apply the principles, I knew I had to understand in an even lower and basic
level. I then asked myself "What the heck is a system" and what is the
relationship it has with "process", "methodology" and "frameworks" ?

I found out, for example, that "System" and "Process" sometimes are used
inter-changeably. So I went to google to try to find out the answer. The
simplest answers simply say that "a process is what a system is made of".
It did not convince me.

By reading the wikipedia article about System (
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/System), I found out this paragraph under
"System concepts":

Process and transformation process
> A system can also be viewed as a bounded transformation process, that is,
> a process or collection of processes that transforms inputs into outputs.
> Inputs are consumed; outputs are produced. The concept of input and output
> here is very broad. E.g., an output of a passenger ship is the movement of
> people from departure to destination.


A system can viewed as a process? Hmm, confusing.

Right now, my mental model basically says that a "system" is like blueprint
with different components that communicate, and a process is what runs on
it (or in on of its components). "Framework" is like a collection of
systems and a "methodology" is basically akin to system (in my
understanding).

Why am I obsessing about this?

The reason is systems thinking. I think it's a quite interesting mindset
and way to perceive the world. By trying to view yourself and what
surrounds you as systems (with sub-systems), it's much easier to document
(them), get feedback, and improve, automating your life even further,
understanding it more, and living better.

For example, from this perspective I think, GTD is simply a product of an
elevated point of view from the author David Allen. He simply viewed things
systematically and documented them. That's why he says it's 'common-sense'.

But before that, it would be nice to know exactly what a System is, and
it's relationship with "process", "methodology" and "framework", in
abstract terms.

 What do you think? I'm sure there are quite a few people here that might
be crazy enough to have the same question, or perhaps, I'm just too crazy.
Let me know, any insights very much appreciated.

Cheers,

- Marcelo.

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Re: [OT] Defining System, process, methodology and framework

[Marcelo de Moraes Serpa]

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Well, looks like my text was kind of stupid and or confusing...

Anyway, I started reading "An Introduction To General Systems Thinking" -
surprisingly interesting book, and it's helping me answer most of those
questions in deeper ways. I needed to do some additional investigation
before starting to ask questions ;)

I'll share the insights after I finish it,

Thanks!

Marcelo.

On Tue, Apr 10, 2012 at 9:24 PM, Marcelo de Moraes Serpa <
celoserpa@gmail.com> wrote:

> Hi guys,
>
> I know there are quite a few smart brains around here, and I think this is
> valid discussion for this mailing list, even if OT.
>
> I'm not a cientist, nor work inside an academic environment. I'm just a
> regular guy trying to understand this world and making better use of my
> resources, specially time. For this, I have read dozens of books on
> personal productivity, including GTD, Making it All Work, and Work the
> System. All great books.
>
> I've started to notice a pattern though. All of them talk about systems
> and processes (and some might even use the word framework and methodology /
> or method), and although you can live by and be quite productivity if you
> apply the principles, I knew I had to understand in an even lower and basic
> level. I then asked myself "What the heck is a system" and what is the
> relationship it has with "process", "methodology" and "frameworks" ?
>
> I found out, for example, that "System" and "Process" sometimes are used
> inter-changeably. So I went to google to try to find out the answer. The
> simplest answers simply say that "a process is what a system is made of".
> It did not convince me.
>
> By reading the wikipedia article about System (
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/System), I found out this paragraph under
> "System concepts":
>
> Process and transformation process
>> A system can also be viewed as a bounded transformation process, that is,
>> a process or collection of processes that transforms inputs into outputs.
>> Inputs are consumed; outputs are produced. The concept of input and output
>> here is very broad. E.g., an output of a passenger ship is the movement of
>> people from departure to destination.
>
>
> A system can viewed as a process? Hmm, confusing.
>
> Right now, my mental model basically says that a "system" is like
> blueprint with different components that communicate, and a process is what
> runs on it (or in on of its components). "Framework" is like a collection
> of systems and a "methodology" is basically akin to system (in my
> understanding).
>
> Why am I obsessing about this?
>
> The reason is systems thinking. I think it's a quite interesting mindset
> and way to perceive the world. By trying to view yourself and what
> surrounds you as systems (with sub-systems), it's much easier to document
> (them), get feedback, and improve, automating your life even further,
> understanding it more, and living better.
>
> For example, from this perspective I think, GTD is simply a product of an
> elevated point of view from the author David Allen. He simply viewed things
> systematically and documented them. That's why he says it's 'common-sense'.
>
> But before that, it would be nice to know exactly what a System is, and
> it's relationship with "process", "methodology" and "framework", in
> abstract terms.
>
>  What do you think? I'm sure there are quite a few people here that might
> be crazy enough to have the same question, or perhaps, I'm just too crazy.
> Let me know, any insights very much appreciated.
>
> Cheers,
>
> - Marcelo.
>
>

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Re: [OT] Defining System, process, methodology and framework

[Gustav Wikström]

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Not stupid, maybe a bit confusing ;) But thinking normally is, until you
reason it out. =) (And that's a process!)

I wanted to write something about your mail but didn't find anything of
relevance in my mind (In my system, to share your terminology ;) ).

Please share your insights afterwards!

/Gustav

On Fri, Apr 13, 2012 at 6:59 AM, Marcelo de Moraes Serpa <
celoserpa@gmail.com> wrote:

> Well, looks like my text was kind of stupid and or confusing...
>
> Anyway, I started reading "An Introduction To General Systems Thinking" -
> surprisingly interesting book, and it's helping me answer most of those
> questions in deeper ways. I needed to do some additional investigation
> before starting to ask questions ;)
>
> I'll share the insights after I finish it,
>
> Thanks!
>
> Marcelo.
>
>
> On Tue, Apr 10, 2012 at 9:24 PM, Marcelo de Moraes Serpa <
> celoserpa@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Hi guys,
>>
>> I know there are quite a few smart brains around here, and I think this
>> is valid discussion for this mailing list, even if OT.
>>
>> I'm not a cientist, nor work inside an academic environment. I'm just a
>> regular guy trying to understand this world and making better use of my
>> resources, specially time. For this, I have read dozens of books on
>> personal productivity, including GTD, Making it All Work, and Work the
>> System. All great books.
>>
>> I've started to notice a pattern though. All of them talk about systems
>> and processes (and some might even use the word framework and methodology /
>> or method), and although you can live by and be quite productivity if you
>> apply the principles, I knew I had to understand in an even lower and basic
>> level. I then asked myself "What the heck is a system" and what is the
>> relationship it has with "process", "methodology" and "frameworks" ?
>>
>> I found out, for example, that "System" and "Process" sometimes are used
>> inter-changeably. So I went to google to try to find out the answer. The
>> simplest answers simply say that "a process is what a system is made of".
>> It did not convince me.
>>
>> By reading the wikipedia article about System (
>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/System), I found out this paragraph under
>> "System concepts":
>>
>> Process and transformation process
>>> A system can also be viewed as a bounded transformation process, that
>>> is, a process or collection of processes that transforms inputs into
>>> outputs. Inputs are consumed; outputs are produced. The concept of input
>>> and output here is very broad. E.g., an output of a passenger ship is the
>>> movement of people from departure to destination.
>>
>>
>> A system can viewed as a process? Hmm, confusing.
>>
>> Right now, my mental model basically says that a "system" is like
>> blueprint with different components that communicate, and a process is what
>> runs on it (or in on of its components). "Framework" is like a collection
>> of systems and a "methodology" is basically akin to system (in my
>> understanding).
>>
>> Why am I obsessing about this?
>>
>> The reason is systems thinking. I think it's a quite interesting mindset
>> and way to perceive the world. By trying to view yourself and what
>> surrounds you as systems (with sub-systems), it's much easier to document
>> (them), get feedback, and improve, automating your life even further,
>> understanding it more, and living better.
>>
>> For example, from this perspective I think, GTD is simply a product of an
>> elevated point of view from the author David Allen. He simply viewed things
>> systematically and documented them. That's why he says it's 'common-sense'.
>>
>> But before that, it would be nice to know exactly what a System is, and
>> it's relationship with "process", "methodology" and "framework", in
>> abstract terms.
>>
>>  What do you think? I'm sure there are quite a few people here that might
>> be crazy enough to have the same question, or perhaps, I'm just too crazy.
>> Let me know, any insights very much appreciated.
>>
>> Cheers,
>>
>> - Marcelo.
>>
>>
>

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Re: [OT] Defining System, process, methodology and framework

[Marcelo de Moraes Serpa]

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Hi Gustav,

Not stupid, maybe a bit confusing ;) But thinking normally is, until you
> reason it out. =) (And that's a process!)


Thanks. Yeah, it looks more like a brainstorm :)

Anywya, at least it's some food for thought. The book goes way deeper into
what system thinking is by exploring the theory of general systems. It's
really interesting. I'll blog about it as I go and share here.

For those who are interested, this is the book:

[1]
http://www.amazon.com/Introduction-General-Systems-Thinking-ebook/dp/B004VS9AUS/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&qid=1334333591&sr=8-3

I've been reading this one before as well:

[2]
http://www.amazon.com/Work-System-Mechanics-Working-ebook/dp/B002UUT3KQ/ref=sr_1_2?s=digital-text&ie=UTF8&qid=1334333622&sr=1-2


Thanks,

Marcelo.




2012/4/13 Gustav Wikström <gustav.erik@gmail.com>

> Not stupid, maybe a bit confusing ;) But thinking normally is, until you
> reason it out. =) (And that's a process!)
>
> I wanted to write something about your mail but didn't find anything of
> relevance in my mind (In my system, to share your terminology ;) ).
>
> Please share your insights afterwards!
>
> /Gustav
>
>
> On Fri, Apr 13, 2012 at 6:59 AM, Marcelo de Moraes Serpa <
> celoserpa@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Well, looks like my text was kind of stupid and or confusing...
>>
>> Anyway, I started reading "An Introduction To General Systems Thinking" -
>> surprisingly interesting book, and it's helping me answer most of those
>> questions in deeper ways. I needed to do some additional investigation
>> before starting to ask questions ;)
>>
>> I'll share the insights after I finish it,
>>
>> Thanks!
>>
>> Marcelo.
>>
>>
>> On Tue, Apr 10, 2012 at 9:24 PM, Marcelo de Moraes Serpa <
>> celoserpa@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Hi guys,
>>>
>>> I know there are quite a few smart brains around here, and I think this
>>> is valid discussion for this mailing list, even if OT.
>>>
>>> I'm not a cientist, nor work inside an academic environment. I'm just a
>>> regular guy trying to understand this world and making better use of my
>>> resources, specially time. For this, I have read dozens of books on
>>> personal productivity, including GTD, Making it All Work, and Work the
>>> System. All great books.
>>>
>>> I've started to notice a pattern though. All of them talk about systems
>>> and processes (and some might even use the word framework and methodology /
>>> or method), and although you can live by and be quite productivity if you
>>> apply the principles, I knew I had to understand in an even lower and basic
>>> level. I then asked myself "What the heck is a system" and what is the
>>> relationship it has with "process", "methodology" and "frameworks" ?
>>>
>>> I found out, for example, that "System" and "Process" sometimes are used
>>> inter-changeably. So I went to google to try to find out the answer. The
>>> simplest answers simply say that "a process is what a system is made of".
>>> It did not convince me.
>>>
>>> By reading the wikipedia article about System (
>>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/System), I found out this paragraph under
>>> "System concepts":
>>>
>>> Process and transformation process
>>>> A system can also be viewed as a bounded transformation process, that
>>>> is, a process or collection of processes that transforms inputs into
>>>> outputs. Inputs are consumed; outputs are produced. The concept of input
>>>> and output here is very broad. E.g., an output of a passenger ship is the
>>>> movement of people from departure to destination.
>>>
>>>
>>> A system can viewed as a process? Hmm, confusing.
>>>
>>> Right now, my mental model basically says that a "system" is like
>>> blueprint with different components that communicate, and a process is what
>>> runs on it (or in on of its components). "Framework" is like a collection
>>> of systems and a "methodology" is basically akin to system (in my
>>> understanding).
>>>
>>> Why am I obsessing about this?
>>>
>>> The reason is systems thinking. I think it's a quite interesting mindset
>>> and way to perceive the world. By trying to view yourself and what
>>> surrounds you as systems (with sub-systems), it's much easier to document
>>> (them), get feedback, and improve, automating your life even further,
>>> understanding it more, and living better.
>>>
>>> For example, from this perspective I think, GTD is simply a product of
>>> an elevated point of view from the author David Allen. He simply viewed
>>> things systematically and documented them. That's why he says it's
>>> 'common-sense'.
>>>
>>> But before that, it would be nice to know exactly what a System is, and
>>> it's relationship with "process", "methodology" and "framework", in
>>> abstract terms.
>>>
>>>  What do you think? I'm sure there are quite a few people here that
>>> might be crazy enough to have the same question, or perhaps, I'm just too
>>> crazy. Let me know, any insights very much appreciated.
>>>
>>> Cheers,
>>>
>>> - Marcelo.
>>>
>>>
>>
>

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Re: [OT] Defining System, process, methodology and framework

[Karl Voit]

* Marcelo de Moraes Serpa <celoserpa@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Well, looks like my text was kind of stupid and or confusing...

No. At least not to me.

> Anyway, I started reading "An Introduction To General Systems Thinking" -
> surprisingly interesting book, and it's helping me answer most of those
> questions in deeper ways. I needed to do some additional investigation
> before starting to ask questions ;)
>
> I'll share the insights after I finish it,

Please do so.

For me, this approach is especially interesting related to PIM/GTD.


Without looking into Wikipedia or such and without deeper background
knowledge, I'd have *guessed*:

- systems are made of processes
- system is a higher level process, accomplishing bigger things than a
  task
- a process defines a method to accomplish a task
- frameworks are generic tools for implementing a process
- a method is the underlying principle of how a process is designed 

YMMV :-)

-- 
Karl Voit

Re: [OT] Defining System, process, methodology and framework

[Marcelo de Moraes Serpa]

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Hi Karl,

I'm 60% through the book. I'll share my insights shortly.

Thank your for your definitions, they make sense :)

- Marcelo.

On Sun, Apr 22, 2012 at 5:48 AM, Karl Voit <devnull@karl-voit.at> wrote:

> * Marcelo de Moraes Serpa <celoserpa@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > Well, looks like my text was kind of stupid and or confusing...
>
> No. At least not to me.
>
> > Anyway, I started reading "An Introduction To General Systems Thinking" -
> > surprisingly interesting book, and it's helping me answer most of those
> > questions in deeper ways. I needed to do some additional investigation
> > before starting to ask questions ;)
> >
> > I'll share the insights after I finish it,
>
> Please do so.
>
> For me, this approach is especially interesting related to PIM/GTD.
>
>
> Without looking into Wikipedia or such and without deeper background
> knowledge, I'd have *guessed*:
>
> - systems are made of processes
> - system is a higher level process, accomplishing bigger things than a
>  task
> - a process defines a method to accomplish a task
> - frameworks are generic tools for implementing a process
> - a method is the underlying principle of how a process is designed
>
> YMMV :-)
>
> --
> Karl Voit
>
>
>

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Re: [OT] Defining System, process, methodology and framework

[Eric Fraga]

Marcelo de Moraes Serpa <celoserpa@gmail.com> writes:

... a very interesting philosophical email!

[...]

> level. I then asked myself "What the heck is a system" and what is the
> relationship it has with "process", "methodology" and "frameworks" ?

[...]

Others have answered to some degree or another but I thought I'd throw
in my view (as somebody that dabbles in systems... ;-):

- system :: the set of units (building blocks) *and* their interconnections
- process :: what the system actually "does"
- framework :: the structure on which to /instantiate/ systems
- methodology :: the /guide/ for using the framework to build a system

but the boundaries between these different concepts or views are indeed
fuzzy as it is difficult to talk about any single aspect without
reference to the others.

relating this to org, org is a system implemented on the framework
provided by emacs (elisp) which allows one to execute a number of
different processes (GTD, LP, publishing, ...).  the methodology is
rather less well defined ;-)

This is a really nice point at which to stop reading my backlog of org
mailing list messages!  Time for bed now. Good night all.

-- 
: Eric S Fraga (GnuPG: 0xC89193D8FFFCF67D) in Emacs 24.1.50.1
: using Org-mode version 7.8.06 (release_7.8.06.181.g67694.dirty)