From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 From: Marcelo de Moraes Serpa Subject: Re: [OT] Defining System, process, methodology and framework Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2012 11:14:35 -0500 Message-ID: References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=0015175cab14c2389404bd91c4a9 Return-path: Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([208.118.235.92]:57163) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1SIj94-0004aR-Eh for emacs-orgmode@gnu.org; Fri, 13 Apr 2012 12:14:51 -0400 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1SIj8w-0005PR-9X for emacs-orgmode@gnu.org; Fri, 13 Apr 2012 12:14:46 -0400 Received: from mail-bk0-f41.google.com ([209.85.214.41]:35091) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1SIj8v-0005Ow-Se for emacs-orgmode@gnu.org; Fri, 13 Apr 2012 12:14:38 -0400 Received: by bkwq16 with SMTP id q16so3057722bkw.0 for ; Fri, 13 Apr 2012 09:14:35 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: List-Id: "General discussions about Org-mode." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-orgmode-bounces+geo-emacs-orgmode=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Sender: emacs-orgmode-bounces+geo-emacs-orgmode=m.gmane.org@gnu.org To: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Gustav_Wikstr=F6m?= Cc: Org Mode --0015175cab14c2389404bd91c4a9 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Gustav, Not stupid, maybe a bit confusing ;) But thinking normally is, until you > reason it out. =3D) (And that's a process!) Thanks. Yeah, it looks more like a brainstorm :) Anywya, at least it's some food for thought. The book goes way deeper into what system thinking is by exploring the theory of general systems. It's really interesting. I'll blog about it as I go and share here. For those who are interested, this is the book: [1] http://www.amazon.com/Introduction-General-Systems-Thinking-ebook/dp/B004VS= 9AUS/ref=3Dsr_1_3?ie=3DUTF8&qid=3D1334333591&sr=3D8-3 I've been reading this one before as well: [2] http://www.amazon.com/Work-System-Mechanics-Working-ebook/dp/B002UUT3KQ/ref= =3Dsr_1_2?s=3Ddigital-text&ie=3DUTF8&qid=3D1334333622&sr=3D1-2 Thanks, Marcelo. 2012/4/13 Gustav Wikstr=F6m > Not stupid, maybe a bit confusing ;) But thinking normally is, until you > reason it out. =3D) (And that's a process!) > > I wanted to write something about your mail but didn't find anything of > relevance in my mind (In my system, to share your terminology ;) ). > > Please share your insights afterwards! > > /Gustav > > > On Fri, Apr 13, 2012 at 6:59 AM, Marcelo de Moraes Serpa < > celoserpa@gmail.com> wrote: > >> Well, looks like my text was kind of stupid and or confusing... >> >> Anyway, I started reading "An Introduction To General Systems Thinking" = - >> surprisingly interesting book, and it's helping me answer most of those >> questions in deeper ways. I needed to do some additional investigation >> before starting to ask questions ;) >> >> I'll share the insights after I finish it, >> >> Thanks! >> >> Marcelo. >> >> >> On Tue, Apr 10, 2012 at 9:24 PM, Marcelo de Moraes Serpa < >> celoserpa@gmail.com> wrote: >> >>> Hi guys, >>> >>> I know there are quite a few smart brains around here, and I think this >>> is valid discussion for this mailing list, even if OT. >>> >>> I'm not a cientist, nor work inside an academic environment. I'm just a >>> regular guy trying to understand this world and making better use of my >>> resources, specially time. For this, I have read dozens of books on >>> personal productivity, including GTD, Making it All Work, and Work the >>> System. All great books. >>> >>> I've started to notice a pattern though. All of them talk about systems >>> and processes (and some might even use the word framework and methodolo= gy / >>> or method), and although you can live by and be quite productivity if y= ou >>> apply the principles, I knew I had to understand in an even lower and b= asic >>> level. I then asked myself "What the heck is a system" and what is the >>> relationship it has with "process", "methodology" and "frameworks" ? >>> >>> I found out, for example, that "System" and "Process" sometimes are use= d >>> inter-changeably. So I went to google to try to find out the answer. Th= e >>> simplest answers simply say that "a process is what a system is made of= ". >>> It did not convince me. >>> >>> By reading the wikipedia article about System ( >>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/System), I found out this paragraph under >>> "System concepts": >>> >>> Process and transformation process >>>> A system can also be viewed as a bounded transformation process, that >>>> is, a process or collection of processes that transforms inputs into >>>> outputs. Inputs are consumed; outputs are produced. The concept of inp= ut >>>> and output here is very broad. E.g., an output of a passenger ship is = the >>>> movement of people from departure to destination. >>> >>> >>> A system can viewed as a process? Hmm, confusing. >>> >>> Right now, my mental model basically says that a "system" is like >>> blueprint with different components that communicate, and a process is = what >>> runs on it (or in on of its components). "Framework" is like a collecti= on >>> of systems and a "methodology" is basically akin to system (in my >>> understanding). >>> >>> Why am I obsessing about this? >>> >>> The reason is systems thinking. I think it's a quite interesting mindse= t >>> and way to perceive the world. By trying to view yourself and what >>> surrounds you as systems (with sub-systems), it's much easier to docume= nt >>> (them), get feedback, and improve, automating your life even further, >>> understanding it more, and living better. >>> >>> For example, from this perspective I think, GTD is simply a product of >>> an elevated point of view from the author David Allen. He simply viewed >>> things systematically and documented them. That's why he says it's >>> 'common-sense'. >>> >>> But before that, it would be nice to know exactly what a System is, and >>> it's relationship with "process", "methodology" and "framework", in >>> abstract terms. >>> >>> What do you think? I'm sure there are quite a few people here that >>> might be crazy enough to have the same question, or perhaps, I'm just t= oo >>> crazy. Let me know, any insights very much appreciated. >>> >>> Cheers, >>> >>> - Marcelo. >>> >>> >> > --0015175cab14c2389404bd91c4a9 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Gustav,

Not stupid, maybe a bit confusing ;) But thinking normally is, until you re= ason it out. =3D) (And that's a process!)

Thanks. Yeah, it looks more like a brainstorm :)=A0

Anywya, at least it's some food for thought. The book goes way dee= per into what system thinking is by exploring the theory of general systems= . It's really interesting. I'll blog about it as I go and share her= e.

For those who are interested, this is the book:


I've been reading this one before as well:



Thanks,

Marcelo= .




2012/4/13 Gustav Wikstr=F6m <gustav.erik@gmail.com>
Not stupid, maybe a bit confusing ;) But thi= nking normally is, until you reason it out. =3D) (And that's a process!= )

I wanted to write something about your mail but didn't f= ind anything of relevance in my mind (In my system, to share your terminolo= gy ;) ).

Please share your insights afterwards!

/Gustav


On Fri, Apr 13, 2012 at 6:59 AM, Marcelo= de Moraes Serpa <celoserpa@gmail.com> wrote:
Well, looks like my text was kind of stupid = and or confusing...=A0

Anyway, I started reading "An Intr= oduction To General Systems Thinking" - surprisingly interesting book,= and it's helping me answer most of those questions in deeper ways. I n= eeded to do some=A0additional=A0investigation before starting to ask questi= ons ;)

I'll share the insights after I finish it,

Thanks!

=
Marcelo.


On Tue, Apr 10, 2012 at 9:24 PM, Ma= rcelo de Moraes Serpa <celoserpa@gmail.com> wrote:
Hi guys,

I know there are= quite a few smart brains around here, and I think this is valid discussion= for this mailing list, even if OT.

I'm not a cientist, nor work inside an academic env= ironment. I'm just a regular guy trying to understand this world and ma= king better use of my resources, specially time. For this, I have read doze= ns of books on personal productivity, including GTD, Making it All Work, an= d Work the System. All great books.=A0

I've started to notice a pattern though. All of the= m talk about systems and processes (and some might even use the word framew= ork and methodology / or method), and although you can live by and be quite= productivity if you apply the principles, I knew I had to understand in an= even lower and basic level. I then asked myself "What the heck is a s= ystem" and what is the relationship it has with "process", &= quot;methodology" and "frameworks" ?

I found out, for example, that "System" and &= quot;Process" sometimes are used inter-changeably. So I went to google= to try to find out the answer. The simplest answers simply say that "= a process is what a system is made of". It did not convince me.

By reading the wikipedia article about System (http://en.wikipe= dia.org/wiki/System), I found out this paragraph under "System con= cepts":

Process and transformation process
A system can also be viewed as a boun= ded transformation process, that is, a process or collection of processes t= hat transforms inputs into outputs. Inputs are consumed; outputs are produc= ed. The concept of input and output here is very broad. E.g., an output of = a passenger ship is the movement of people from departure to destination.

A system can viewed as a process? Hmm, confusing.=

Right now, my mental model basically says that a = "system" is like blueprint with different components that=A0commu= nicate, and a process is what runs on it (or in on of its components). &quo= t;Framework" is like a collection of systems and a "methodology&q= uot; is basically akin to system (in my understanding).

Why am I obsessing about this?

The reason is systems thinking. I think it's a quite interesting minds= et and way to perceive the world. By trying to view yourself and what surro= unds you as systems (with sub-systems), it's much easier to document (t= hem), get feedback, and improve, automating your life even further, underst= anding it more, and living better.

For example, from this perspective I think, GTD is simp= ly a product of an elevated point of view from the author David Allen. He s= imply viewed things systematically and documented them. That's why he s= ays it's 'common-sense'.

But before that, it would be nice to know exactly what = a System is, and it's relationship with "process", "meth= odology" and "framework", in abstract terms.

=A0What do you think? I'm sure there are quite a few people = here that might be crazy enough to have the same question, or perhaps, I= 9;m just too crazy. Let me know, any insights very much appreciated.

Cheers,

- Marcelo.
<= div>



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