LaTeX export: Skip headline lines? "Paragraph" sectioning?

LaTeX export: Skip headline lines? "Paragraph" sectioning?

[Alan E. Davis]

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Sometimes, I have used outliners, like ThinkTank, to organize my
thoughts, and reorganize the structure of a document of whatever kind.
I don't need headings or sectioning in some cases.

I have not found a way to exclude heading lines from
LaTeX output in Orgmode, nor have I found a
tag to say, "omit this headline."  I do see the variables
org-export-exclude-tags, and org-export-select tags; as well as an
option to include a specific number of headings as LaTeX sections.  In
the later case, other  headings are exported as plain list items, not
what I have in mind.

A related issue perhaps: what would it take to export, say list items,
as "paragraph" and "subparagraph" sections in LaTeX.

The ability to export a pdf almost automatically through LaTeX, even
with images, is magical.  Many thanks for this.

Alan Davis

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Re: LaTeX export: Skip headline lines? "Paragraph" sectioning?

[Nick Dokos]

Alan E. Davis <lngndvs@gmail.com> wrote:

> Sometimes, I have used outliners, like ThinkTank, to organize my
> thoughts, and reorganize the structure of a document of whatever kind.  
> I don't need headings or sectioning in some cases.
> 
> I have not found a way to exclude heading lines from 
> LaTeX output in Orgmode, nor have I found a
> tag to say, "omit this headline."  I do see the variables
> org-export-exclude-tags, and org-export-select tags; as well as an
> option to include a specific number of headings as LaTeX sections.  In
> the later case, other  headings are exported as plain list items, not
> what I have in mind.
> 
> A related issue perhaps: what would it take to export, say list items,
> as "paragraph" and "subparagraph" sections in LaTeX.
> 
> The ability to export a pdf almost automatically through LaTeX, even
> with images, is magical.  Many thanks for this.
> 

Some examples might help. I may be particularly dense tonight but I have
read your mail a few times and I still have no idea what you are asking
(or rather I have multiple ideas, none of which make much sense to me.)
 
Thanks,
Nick

Re: LaTeX export: Skip headline lines? "Paragraph" sectioning?

[Scot Becker]

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He wants to write up a document using org-mode's outline facilities as a
skeleton to help him build up, navigate and visualize his document, but then
he wants only to use SOME of the headlines but ALL of the text when he
actually makes a printed version for others to read.   I've wanted this as
well, since when you think about it the structure you need as a writer may
not be the structure you want to pass on to your readers.

I'd be glad to see a formal feature for this in org-mode, and even more glad
if I could figure out a good way to basically keep up to two headlines per
'node' (org section): one for me while I'm writing (the outline of my
argument, in sentence form, say) and another for export (the catchy
'heading' which goes---for some headings only---in the printed output).

Until we get something like that, Alan, you could just use a little manual
work (or some elisp and one of org's export hooks) to help manage something
like this:

1) choose a :tag: for "don't print this headline (just the text under it)"
2) If you want to keep those headings in the file (I assume you do), then
when you want to export, you'll want to make a temporary (saved) copy of the
file somewhere then:
3) use emacs' "M-x flush-lines" to kill lines with that tag just before
export.

As for exporting lists as \paragraph{} sections, I'm not sure.  But on this
you might take nick's suggestion and give a sample input and output file to
help visualize (and show us) what you're asking for.  And do make sure your
org lists are compatible with the new list definitions (see recent
discussions elsewhere on this list).  When you do this kind of thing it
becomes critical that you pay attention to what constitutes a new item and
the end of the list.

As you'll see org-mode's latex export is currently designed to use org for
basic document structuring and only allows for a limited set of mappings
between org's structure and latex structure.  But you'll see in the latex
configuration documentation that it is possible to define what kind of
\section{}, \chapter{}, or \subsubparagraph{} is exported for each level of
org's headlines.

Also have a look at the documentation for the latex package 'easylist'  It's
not what you're asking for here, but you may find it interesting if you want
to get structured thought-outlines out to paper.  It basically takes
something like an org-mode header list and typesets in latex as nested
(numbered or un-numbered) lists, i.e. not as LaTeX headers.


Scot









On Mon, Aug 30, 2010 at 5:06 AM, Nick Dokos <nicholas.dokos@hp.com> wrote:

> Alan E. Davis <lngndvs@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > Sometimes, I have used outliners, like ThinkTank, to organize my
> > thoughts, and reorganize the structure of a document of whatever kind.
> > I don't need headings or sectioning in some cases.
> >
> > I have not found a way to exclude heading lines from
> > LaTeX output in Orgmode, nor have I found a
> > tag to say, "omit this headline."  I do see the variables
> > org-export-exclude-tags, and org-export-select tags; as well as an
> > option to include a specific number of headings as LaTeX sections.  In
> > the later case, other  headings are exported as plain list items, not
> > what I have in mind.
> >
> > A related issue perhaps: what would it take to export, say list items,
> > as "paragraph" and "subparagraph" sections in LaTeX.
> >
> > The ability to export a pdf almost automatically through LaTeX, even
> > with images, is magical.  Many thanks for this.
> >
>
> Some examples might help. I may be particularly dense tonight but I have
> read your mail a few times and I still have no idea what you are asking
> (or rather I have multiple ideas, none of which make much sense to me.)
>
> Thanks,
> Nick
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Emacs-orgmode mailing list
> Please use `Reply All' to send replies to the list.
> Emacs-orgmode@gnu.org
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>

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Re: LaTeX export: Skip headline lines? "Paragraph" sectioning?

[Nick Dokos]

Scot Becker <scot.becker@gmail.com> wrote:

> He wants to write up a document using org-mode's outline facilities as
> a skeleton to help him build up, navigate and visualize his document,
> but then he wants only to use SOME of the headlines but ALL of the
> text when he actually makes a printed version for others to read.  
> I've wanted this as well, since when you think about it the structure
> you need as a writer may not be the structure you want to pass on to
> your readers.
> 

OK, thanks for the clarification: that was one of the interpretations
that did not make much sense to me, but I was looking at it from a much
more rigid point of view, where the headlines are what give structure to
the document, so you want to preserve them at all costs; I wasn't
thinking about different meanings that they might have for different
people.

However, it still sounds like an ill-defined problem to me: in
particular, your manual algorithm would wreak havoc on an outline with
headlines at multiple levels. What is the "real" algorithm supposed to
do with something like this:

,----
| * foo
| text1
| ** foo1
| text2
| * bar                  :omit-this-header:
| text3
| **bar2                 :omit-this-header:
| text4
| ***bar3
| text5
`----

Or are we supposed to imagine headings at a single level only?

I suspect that one would be better off with two (or more) outlines: one for
the writer, one for the reader (perhaps one for each class of readers), with
some way to pick text from one outline and plug it into the other(s).

Nick

Re: LaTeX export: Skip headline lines? "Paragraph" sectioning?

[Thomas S. Dye]

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On Aug 29, 2010, at 7:46 PM, Nick Dokos wrote:

> Scot Becker <scot.becker@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> He wants to write up a document using org-mode's outline facilities  
>> as
>> a skeleton to help him build up, navigate and visualize his document,
>> but then he wants only to use SOME of the headlines but ALL of the
>> text when he actually makes a printed version for others to read.
>> I've wanted this as well, since when you think about it the structure
>> you need as a writer may not be the structure you want to pass on to
>> your readers.
>>
>
> OK, thanks for the clarification: that was one of the interpretations
> that did not make much sense to me, but I was looking at it from a  
> much
> more rigid point of view, where the headlines are what give  
> structure to
> the document, so you want to preserve them at all costs; I wasn't
> thinking about different meanings that they might have for different
> people.
>
> However, it still sounds like an ill-defined problem to me: in
> particular, your manual algorithm would wreak havoc on an outline with
> headlines at multiple levels. What is the "real" algorithm supposed to
> do with something like this:
>
> ,----
> | * foo
> | text1
> | ** foo1
> | text2
> | * bar                  :omit-this-header:
> | text3
> | **bar2                 :omit-this-header:
> | text4
> | ***bar3
> | text5
> `----
>
> Or are we supposed to imagine headings at a single level only?
>
> I suspect that one would be better off with two (or more) outlines:  
> one for
> the writer, one for the reader (perhaps one for each class of  
> readers), with
> some way to pick text from one outline and plug it into the other(s).
>
> Nick

Aloha Alan et al.,

This is what I use LaTeX blocks in Babel for.  The outline stuff that  
helps me write is separate from the stuff I actually write.  I've been  
doing this for a while now and have been amazed at how much of what I  
write gets left behind, including headlines.

All the best,
Tom

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Re: LaTeX export: Skip headline lines? "Paragraph" sectioning?

[Scot Becker]

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Hmm, Tomas, this is interesting.  I have thought about using babel for this
sort of thing, but assumed that the textual overhead would be too high to
make it worth it (It'd be ugly, and not that fun to generate).  I don't
suppose you'd be so kind as to past in an example that shows this kind of
thing in action?  Even just an example text itself, with the structure and
some blocks. (And of course, I do still owe you my examples of org+xetex).

Scot

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Re: LaTeX export: Skip headline lines? "Paragraph" sectioning?

[Thomas S. Dye]

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Aloha Scot,

An example is here:

http://orgmode.org/worg/org-contrib/babel/examples/research-project.php

This approach is *definitely* not as much fun as the Org-mode LaTeX  
exporter, and the org files can be ugly, but it gives fine control  
over the LaTeX output and can produce notes and metadata in LaTeX,  
HTML, docbook, etc.

I use it for projects intended for publication, where I'm willing to  
invest some thought and energy into the setup.

Let me know if you have questions.

All the best,
Tom

P.S. Yes, by all means, let me know when you've tamed the xetex  
configuration or edit the LaTeX export tutorial yourself to include  
what you've found.

On Aug 30, 2010, at 4:22 AM, Scot Becker wrote:

> Hmm, Tomas, this is interesting.  I have thought about using babel  
> for this sort of thing, but assumed that the textual overhead would  
> be too high to make it worth it (It'd be ugly, and not that fun to  
> generate).  I don't suppose you'd be so kind as to past in an  
> example that shows this kind of thing in action?  Even just an  
> example text itself, with the structure and some blocks. (And of  
> course, I do still owe you my examples of org+xetex).
>
> Scot
>


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Re: LaTeX export: Skip headline lines? "Paragraph" sectioning?

[Alan E. Davis]

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Yes, I want (in some cases) to use headlines for purposes of organization.
 I want at least some of them to disappear in the output.

I could turn in a request for a feature, here:

#+OPTIONS: H:1 lower:nil

Or something else that would give the option that instead of automatically
converting all lower order headlines into list elements, to ignore them
entirely.  Of course, the case may exist where one wishes to actually have a
list converted as is, but lower level headings to disappear.

Thanks for the information about configuring converstion to \section{},
\subsection{}, \paragraph{}, etc.

Aloha,

Alan

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Re: LaTeX export: Skip headline lines? "Paragraph" sectioning?

[Nick Dokos]

Alan E. Davis <lngndvs@gmail.com> wrote:

> Yes, I want (in some cases) to use headlines for purposes of organization.
>  I want at least some of them to disappear in the output.
> 
> I could turn in a request for a feature, here:
> 
> #+OPTIONS: H:1 lower:nil
> 
> Or something else that would give the option that instead of automatically
> converting all lower order headlines into list elements, to ignore them
> entirely.

Have you tried setting org-export-latex-low-levels to nil? AFAIK, that
gets rid of everything, not just the headlines, but does it help at all
in your use case?

Nick

C-h v org-export-latex-low-levels says:

,----
| org-export-latex-low-levels is a variable defined in `org-latex.el'.
| Its value is itemize
| 
| Documentation:
| How to convert sections below the current level of sectioning.
| This is specified by the `org-export-headline-levels' option or the
| value of "H:" in Org's #+OPTION line.
| 
| This can be either nil (skip the sections), `description', `itemize',
| or `enumerate' (convert the sections as the corresponding list type), or
| a string to be used instead of \section{%s}.  In this latter case,
| the %s stands here for the inserted headline and is mandatory.
| 
| It may also be a list of three string to define a user-defined environment
| that should be used.  The first string should be the like
| "\begin{itemize}", the second should be like "\item %s %s" with up
| to two occurrences of %s for the title and a label, respectively.  The third
| string should be like "\end{itemize".
| 
| You can customize this variable.
`----


>  Of course, the case may exist where one wishes to actually have a
> list converted as is, but lower level headings to disappear.
> 
> Thanks for the information about configuring converstion to \section{},
> \subsection{}, \paragraph{}, etc.
> 

Re: LaTeX export: Skip headline lines? "Paragraph" sectioning?

[Scot Becker]

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Thanks, Thomas,

I knew I had seen that example.  I just couldn't find it when searching.

Scot

On Mon, Aug 30, 2010 at 5:20 PM, Thomas S. Dye <tsd@tsdye.com> wrote:

> Aloha Scot,
>
> An example is here:
>
> http://orgmode.org/worg/org-contrib/babel/examples/research-project.php
>
> <http://orgmode.org/worg/org-contrib/babel/examples/research-project.php>This
> approach is *definitely* not as much fun as the Org-mode LaTeX exporter, and
> the org files can be ugly, but it gives fine control over the LaTeX output
> and can produce notes and metadata in LaTeX, HTML, docbook, etc.
>
> I use it for projects intended for publication, where I'm willing to invest
> some thought and energy into the setup.
>
> Let me know if you have questions.
>
> All the best,
> Tom
>
> P.S. Yes, by all means, let me know when you've tamed the xetex
> configuration or edit the LaTeX export tutorial yourself to include what
> you've found.
>
> On Aug 30, 2010, at 4:22 AM, Scot Becker wrote:
>
> Hmm, Tomas, this is interesting.  I have thought about using babel for this
> sort of thing, but assumed that the textual overhead would be too high to
> make it worth it (It'd be ugly, and not that fun to generate).  I don't
> suppose you'd be so kind as to past in an example that shows this kind of
> thing in action?  Even just an example text itself, with the structure and
> some blocks. (And of course, I do still owe you my examples of org+xetex).
>
> Scot
>
>
>

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Re: LaTeX export: Skip headline lines? "Paragraph" sectioning?

[Alan E. Davis]

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> C-h v org-export-latex-low-levels


Cool.  Especially it's configurable on a case by case basis.  I looked at
customization of export/latex, but overlooked this.

Thank you.

Alan

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Re: LaTeX export: Skip headline lines? "Paragraph" sectioning?

[Alan E. Davis]

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Scot:

I see what you mean

On Mon, Aug 30, 2010 at 3:14 PM, Scot Becker <scot.becker@gmail.com> wrote:

>
> As you'll see org-mode's latex export is currently designed to use org for
> basic document structuring and only allows for a limited set of mappings
> between org's structure and latex structure.  But you'll see in the latex
> configuration documentation that it is possible to define what kind of
> \section{}, \chapter{}, or \subsubparagraph{} is exported for each level of
> org's headlines.
>
> One imagines it would be possible to define alternate use cases for a
class, for example the "article" class.  I can see it is possible to define
the article class to use

      \\section{%s}   for the first headline level
and
     \\paragraph{%s} for second levels

This would be useful to me.   However, the ordinary article structure with
subsection, subsubsection, etc., is good enough for much of what I do.   I
can imagine copying the article class file into my org directory, and
renaming it to article2.cls, and adding it to org-export-latex-classes, with
the section -> paragraph structure.

Is there an easier or canonical way to do this?

Thank you for your interest and help.

Alan

>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Mon, Aug 30, 2010 at 5:06 AM, Nick Dokos <nicholas.dokos@hp.com> wrote:
>
>> Alan E. Davis <lngndvs@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> > Sometimes, I have used outliners, like ThinkTank, to organize my
>> > thoughts, and reorganize the structure of a document of whatever kind.
>> > I don't need headings or sectioning in some cases.
>> >
>> > I have not found a way to exclude heading lines from
>> > LaTeX output in Orgmode, nor have I found a
>> > tag to say, "omit this headline."  I do see the variables
>> > org-export-exclude-tags, and org-export-select tags; as well as an
>> > option to include a specific number of headings as LaTeX sections.  In
>> > the later case, other  headings are exported as plain list items, not
>> > what I have in mind.
>> >
>> > A related issue perhaps: what would it take to export, say list items,
>> > as "paragraph" and "subparagraph" sections in LaTeX.
>> >
>> > The ability to export a pdf almost automatically through LaTeX, even
>> > with images, is magical.  Many thanks for this.
>> >
>>
>> Some examples might help. I may be particularly dense tonight but I have
>> read your mail a few times and I still have no idea what you are asking
>> (or rather I have multiple ideas, none of which make much sense to me.)
>>
>> Thanks,
>> Nick
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Emacs-orgmode mailing list
>> Please use `Reply All' to send replies to the list.
>> Emacs-orgmode@gnu.org
>> http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/emacs-orgmode
>>
>
>

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Re: LaTeX export: Skip headline lines? "Paragraph" sectioning?

[Alan E. Davis]

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Perhaps I can get this done, but I have one important question.

When I define a new "class" in org-export-latex-classes, does it make sense
to add a new class that calls the same /documentclass{article} class?  I
could name this class article2, and define the section structure as I will.

Hope this is not a silly question.  MY head feels dense today,

Alan

On Tue, Aug 31, 2010 at 11:09 AM, Alan E. Davis <lngndvs@gmail.com> wrote:

> Scot:
>
> I see what you mean
>
> On Mon, Aug 30, 2010 at 3:14 PM, Scot Becker <scot.becker@gmail.com>wrote:
>
>>
>> As you'll see org-mode's latex export is currently designed to use org for
>> basic document structuring and only allows for a limited set of mappings
>> between org's structure and latex structure.  But you'll see in the latex
>> configuration documentation that it is possible to define what kind of
>> \section{}, \chapter{}, or \subsubparagraph{} is exported for each level of
>> org's headlines.
>>
>> One imagines it would be possible to define alternate use cases for a
> class, for example the "article" class.  I can see it is possible to define
> the article class to use
>
>       \\section{%s}   for the first headline level
> and
>      \\paragraph{%s} for second levels
>
> This would be useful to me.   However, the ordinary article structure with
> subsection, subsubsection, etc., is good enough for much of what I do.   I
> can imagine copying the article class file into my org directory, and
> renaming it to article2.cls, and adding it to org-export-latex-classes, with
> the section -> paragraph structure.
>
> Is there an easier or canonical way to do this?
>
> Thank you for your interest and help.
>
> Alan
>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Mon, Aug 30, 2010 at 5:06 AM, Nick Dokos <nicholas.dokos@hp.com>wrote:
>>
>>> Alan E. Davis <lngndvs@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> > Sometimes, I have used outliners, like ThinkTank, to organize my
>>> > thoughts, and reorganize the structure of a document of whatever kind.
>>>
>>> > I don't need headings or sectioning in some cases.
>>> >
>>> > I have not found a way to exclude heading lines from
>>> > LaTeX output in Orgmode, nor have I found a
>>> > tag to say, "omit this headline."  I do see the variables
>>> > org-export-exclude-tags, and org-export-select tags; as well as an
>>> > option to include a specific number of headings as LaTeX sections.  In
>>> > the later case, other  headings are exported as plain list items, not
>>> > what I have in mind.
>>> >
>>> > A related issue perhaps: what would it take to export, say list items,
>>> > as "paragraph" and "subparagraph" sections in LaTeX.
>>> >
>>> > The ability to export a pdf almost automatically through LaTeX, even
>>> > with images, is magical.  Many thanks for this.
>>> >
>>>
>>> Some examples might help. I may be particularly dense tonight but I have
>>> read your mail a few times and I still have no idea what you are asking
>>> (or rather I have multiple ideas, none of which make much sense to me.)
>>>
>>> Thanks,
>>> Nick
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Emacs-orgmode mailing list
>>> Please use `Reply All' to send replies to the list.
>>> Emacs-orgmode@gnu.org
>>> http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/emacs-orgmode
>>>
>>
>>
>

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Re: LaTeX export: Skip headline lines? "Paragraph" sectioning?

[Thomas S. Dye]

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Aloha Alan,

IMHO, yes, this makes good sense.  It is probably a good idea to name  
the org-export-latex-class something associated with the output you  
want from org-mode, rather than with the LaTeX class that is used to  
typeset it.

All the best,
Tom

On Aug 30, 2010, at 3:43 PM, Alan E. Davis wrote:

> Perhaps I can get this done, but I have one important question.
>
> When I define a new "class" in org-export-latex-classes, does it  
> make sense to add a new class that calls the same / 
> documentclass{article} class?  I could name this class article2, and  
> define the section structure as I will.
>
> Hope this is not a silly question.  MY head feels dense today,
>
> Alan
>
> On Tue, Aug 31, 2010 at 11:09 AM, Alan E. Davis <lngndvs@gmail.com>  
> wrote:
> Scot:
>
> I see what you mean
>
> On Mon, Aug 30, 2010 at 3:14 PM, Scot Becker <scot.becker@gmail.com>  
> wrote:
>
> As you'll see org-mode's latex export is currently designed to use  
> org for basic document structuring and only allows for a limited set  
> of mappings between org's structure and latex structure.  But you'll  
> see in the latex configuration documentation that it is possible to  
> define what kind of \section{}, \chapter{}, or \subsubparagraph{} is  
> exported for each level of org's headlines.
>
> One imagines it would be possible to define alternate use cases for  
> a class, for example the "article" class.  I can see it is possible  
> to define the article class to use
>
>       \\section{%s}   for the first headline level
> and
>      \\paragraph{%s} for second levels
>
> This would be useful to me.   However, the ordinary article  
> structure with subsection, subsubsection, etc., is good enough for  
> much of what I do.   I can imagine copying the article class file  
> into my org directory, and renaming it to article2.cls, and adding  
> it to org-export-latex-classes, with the section -> paragraph  
> structure.
>
> Is there an easier or canonical way to do this?
>
> Thank you for your interest and help.
>
> Alan
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Mon, Aug 30, 2010 at 5:06 AM, Nick Dokos <nicholas.dokos@hp.com>  
> wrote:
> Alan E. Davis <lngndvs@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > Sometimes, I have used outliners, like ThinkTank, to organize my
> > thoughts, and reorganize the structure of a document of whatever  
> kind.
> > I don't need headings or sectioning in some cases.
> >
> > I have not found a way to exclude heading lines from
> > LaTeX output in Orgmode, nor have I found a
> > tag to say, "omit this headline."  I do see the variables
> > org-export-exclude-tags, and org-export-select tags; as well as an
> > option to include a specific number of headings as LaTeX  
> sections.  In
> > the later case, other  headings are exported as plain list items,  
> not
> > what I have in mind.
> >
> > A related issue perhaps: what would it take to export, say list  
> items,
> > as "paragraph" and "subparagraph" sections in LaTeX.
> >
> > The ability to export a pdf almost automatically through LaTeX, even
> > with images, is magical.  Many thanks for this.
> >
>
> Some examples might help. I may be particularly dense tonight but I  
> have
> read your mail a few times and I still have no idea what you are  
> asking
> (or rather I have multiple ideas, none of which make much sense to  
> me.)
>
> Thanks,
> Nick
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Emacs-orgmode mailing list
> Please use `Reply All' to send replies to the list.
> Emacs-orgmode@gnu.org
> http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/emacs-orgmode
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Emacs-orgmode mailing list
> Please use `Reply All' to send replies to the list.
> Emacs-orgmode@gnu.org
> http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/emacs-orgmode


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Re: LaTeX export: Skip headline lines? "Paragraph" sectioning?

[Nick Dokos]

Alan E. Davis <lngndvs@gmail.com> wrote:


> Perhaps I can get this done, but I have one important question.
> 
> When I define a new "class" in org-export-latex-classes, does it make sense
> to add a new class that calls the same /documentclass{article} class?  I
> could name this class article2, and define the section structure as I will.
> 

Yes.

> Hope this is not a silly question.
> 

Nope.

Nick

Questions about org-capture templates and usage

[Alan]

I apologize if I am breaking "netiquette* by posting multiple
questions in a single posting.  If so, please let me know, and I will
pare the following down into  "bite-sized" chunks.

I have fallen in love with org-capture, from the start.  I have had
some problems, and questions.  The following is a short list of some
of my questions and issues .  I'm sorry to do it this way, but perhaps
it's a tradeoff: many messages, or one long one.  Which is more
annoying? 

   1. Eventually a tutorial will surely be available.  I haven't found
     one.   Useful tutorials for me would be 

      1. How to make general templates, and pitfalls.
      2. Advanced usages of org-capture: using functions, etc.  
      3. Common errors and causes

   2. Documentation is minimal, while the complexity of the system is
      great.   

   3. I have had to modify my usage to accomodate to changes in org-capture,
      relative to org-remember.  Some differences devolve from explicit
      design features

      1. It is no longer necessary to auto-save uncommitted items.
         As a consequence there seems (as I understand it) to no
         longer be a way to use a prefix key to allow one to visit the
         item in it's context AFTER committing it with C-c C-c.  

	 I have spend a good deal of time worrying over this, but
	 haven't solved the problem.  Probably 90% of the times I save
	 (C-c C-c) the Captured item, I stumble over how to find it
	 again to enhance or review the item.

	 *Is there a way to do this, or can we request a way to do this?*
   4. I would like to be able to capture to a non-orgmode file.
      My remember template saved  some notes, a list of items from an
      agenda search, or any text   was marked as a region, as a memo
      wrapped up as a latex memo, with  a latex memo header and
      an \end{document.  

      It is my understanding that this won't work anymore because
      capture will not save to a non-orgmode file.  

       *Is this correct, and/or what, if anything can I do to make
       this work?* `

      I have thought that it might be possible to make a custom agenda
      report for such searches, that could be edited before final
      export.  I would want this to be printable as a memo.

   5. Requests for Features:
      1. An indication of the current target would be useful on either
         the modeline or the CAPTURE header line.
      2. Likewise, an indicator or nestedness of unsaved capture
         items.  (probably not worth the clutter).
      3. Is there a way to go to the last captured item?  Is there a
         ring that can be cycled through?  *This would be useful*


Thank you for this fantastic work.  

Alan Davis

Re: Questions about org-capture templates and usage

[Matt Lundin]

Alan  <lngndvs@gmail.com> writes:

>    1. Eventually a tutorial will surely be available.  I haven't found
>      one.   Useful tutorials for me would be 
>
>       1. How to make general templates, and pitfalls.
>       2. Advanced usages of org-capture: using functions, etc.  
>       3. Common errors and causes

I put this in the "Features awaiting tutorials" list on Worg:

http://orgmode.org/worg/org-tutorials/index.php#sec-7

>
>    2. Documentation is minimal, while the complexity of the system is
>       great.   

Could you please explain what else you'd like to see in the
documentation?

- http://orgmode.org/manual/Capture.html
- (info "(org) Capture")
- M-x describe-variable org-capture-templates

>    3. I have had to modify my usage to accomodate to changes in
>       org-capture, relative to org-remember. Some differences devolve
>       from explicit design features
>
>       1. It is no longer necessary to auto-save uncommitted items. As
>          a consequence there seems (as I understand it) to no longer
>          be a way to use a prefix key to allow one to visit the item
>          in it's context AFTER committing it with C-c C-c.
>
> 	 I have spend a good deal of time worrying over this, but
> 	 haven't solved the problem.  Probably 90% of the times I save
> 	 (C-c C-c) the Captured item, I stumble over how to find it
> 	 again to enhance or review the item.

> 	 *Is there a way to do this, or can we request a way to do this?*

The function org-capture-goto-last-stored will take you the item. 

You can bind this to a key.

Or if you would like always to jump to a capture item after filing it,
you can add a hook:

(add-hook 'org-capture-after-finalize-hook 'org-capture-goto-last-stored)

>    4. I would like to be able to capture to a non-orgmode file.
>       My remember template saved  some notes, a list of items from an
>       agenda search, or any text   was marked as a region, as a memo
>       wrapped up as a latex memo, with  a latex memo header and
>       an \end{document.  
>
>       It is my understanding that this won't work anymore because
>       capture will not save to a non-orgmode file.  
>
>        *Is this correct, and/or what, if anything can I do to make
>        this work?* `

AFAICT, it works fine. You can use the "plain" entry type. For instance,
here's a template that puts the selected region in a quote environment
in the file ~/searches.tex.

--8<---------------cut here---------------start------------->8---
(add-to-list 'org-capture-templates 
	     '("x" "Random note" plain (file "~/searches.tex") 
	       "\\begin{quote}\n%i\n\\end{quote}"))
--8<---------------cut here---------------end--------------->8---

Best,
Matt

Re: Questions about org-capture templates and usage

[Charles Cave]

Alan <lngndvs <at> gmail.com> writes:

>    1. Eventually a tutorial will surely be available.  I haven't found
>      one.   Useful tutorials for me would be 
> 
>       1. How to make general templates, and pitfalls.
>       2. Advanced usages of org-capture: using functions, etc.  
>       3. Common errors and causes

I am writing such a tutorial to explain date-trees and capture mode.
Capture mode is a great leap forward from remember.

I will publish this tutorial by the 12th of December.

My other org-mode, GTD and project planning tutorials
are at this page:

http://members.optusnet.com.au/~charles57/GTD/

Charles

Re: Questions about org-capture templates and usage

[Bernt Hansen]

Matt Lundin <mdl@imapmail.org> writes:

> Alan  <lngndvs@gmail.com> writes:
>
>>    3. I have had to modify my usage to accomodate to changes in
>>       org-capture, relative to org-remember. Some differences devolve
>>       from explicit design features
>>
>>       1. It is no longer necessary to auto-save uncommitted items. As
>>          a consequence there seems (as I understand it) to no longer
>>          be a way to use a prefix key to allow one to visit the item
>>          in it's context AFTER committing it with C-c C-c.
>>
>> 	 I have spend a good deal of time worrying over this, but
>> 	 haven't solved the problem.  Probably 90% of the times I save
>> 	 (C-c C-c) the Captured item, I stumble over how to find it
>> 	 again to enhance or review the item.
>
>> 	 *Is there a way to do this, or can we request a way to do this?*
>
> The function org-capture-goto-last-stored will take you the item. 
>
> You can bind this to a key.
>
> Or if you would like always to jump to a capture item after filing it,
> you can add a hook:
>
> (add-hook 'org-capture-after-finalize-hook
> 'org-capture-goto-last-stored)

I visit newly captured items all the time.  If you capture something (I
have C-M-r bound to org-capture) and store it with C-c C-c you can visit
it immediately with a double prefix  C-u C-u C-M-r as stated in the
org-capture docstring:

,----
| C-M-r runs the command org-capture, which is an interactive autoloaded
| Lisp function in `org-capture.el'.
| 
| It is bound to C-c r, C-M-r.
| 
| (org-capture &optional GOTO KEYS)
| 
| Capture something.
| 
| Uses keymap "org-capture-mode-map", which is not currently defined.
| 
| This will let you select a template from `org-capture-templates', and then
| file the newly captured information.  The text is immediately inserted
| at the target location, and an indirect buffer is shown where you can
| edit it.  Pressing M-x org-capture-finalize brings you back to the previous state
| of Emacs, so that you can continue your work.
| 
| When called interactively with a C-u prefix argument GOTO, don't capture
| anything, just go to the file/headline where the selected template
| stores its notes.  With a double prefix argument C-u C-u, go to the last note
                     ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
| stored.
  ^^^^^^
| 
| When called with a `C-0' (zero) prefix, insert a template at point.
| 
| Lisp programs can set KEYS to a string associated with a template in
| `org-capture-templates'.  In this case, interactive selection will be
| bypassed.
`----

HTH,
Bernt

Re: Questions about org-capture templates and usage

[Alan E. Davis]

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I am at much greater ease due to these two messages.  They solve several of
my befuddlements about capture.

On Mon, Dec 6, 2010 at 1:59 PM, Bernt Hansen <bernt@norang.ca> wrote:

> I visit newly captured items all the time.  If you capture something (I
> have C-M-r bound to org-capture) and store it with C-c C-c you can visit
> it immediately with a double prefix  C-u C-u C-M-r as stated in the
> org-capture docstring:
>

This is exactly what I was looking for in the manual.  In fact, I think my
comment about the manual was partly a response to being unable to find this
item in the   manual, when I know I had seen reference to it somewhere.
Maybe in my request for items to be included in the manual, the docstrings
in org-capture.el would be scanned.  I missed this on my cursory search of
that file.  I will search for it myself, and work on (believe it or not)
org-help.org, that I use as a helpmate.

I have org-capture assigned to C-c, so C-u C-u C-c c goes straight to the
last stored item.  Perfect.


> |
> | (org-capture &optional GOTO KEYS)
> |
>
I THINK I understand that GOTO here refers to the prefix C-u ?  And C-u C-u
circumvents this?


> | When called interactively with a C-u prefix argument GOTO, don't capture
> | anything, just go to the file/headline where the selected template
> | stores its notes.  With a double prefix argument C-u C-u, go to the last
> note
>
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> | stored.
>  ^^^^^^
>

This is it! What I was looking for.

I think, thought it may seem crazy, I would like to still have a way to
specify in the template that one would remain with the newly captured item
in its environment, after finalizing.   Just the same, thinking about that
it's an indirect buffer, it makes more sense how it works now...

Awe, heck, these two methods solve my problem well enough...

|
> | When called with a `C-0' (zero) prefix, insert a template at point.
> |
>

This is a great feature...


> | Lisp programs can set KEYS to a string associated with a template in
> | `org-capture-templates'.  In this case, interactive selection will be
> | bypassed.
> `----
>

This is something I'd like to see an example of.

Thank you again, and again,

Alan Davis

 "Pollution is nothing but the resources we are not harvesting. We allow
> them to disperse because we've been ignorant of their value."
>
>            --- R. Buckminster Fuller
>

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Re: Re: Questions about org-capture templates and usage

[Carsten Dominik]

On Dec 6, 2010, at 6:02 AM, Alan E. Davis wrote:

> I am at much greater ease due to these two messages.  They solve  
> several of my befuddlements about capture.
>
> On Mon, Dec 6, 2010 at 1:59 PM, Bernt Hansen <bernt@norang.ca> wrote:
> I visit newly captured items all the time.  If you capture something  
> (I
> have C-M-r bound to org-capture) and store it with C-c C-c you can  
> visit
> it immediately with a double prefix  C-u C-u C-M-r as stated in the
> org-capture docstring:
>
> This is exactly what I was looking for in the manual.

Wow, I cannot believe I forgot to put these into the manual!  Crazy.
They are in not (git version).


> In fact, I think my comment about the manual was partly a response  
> to being unable to find this item in the   manual, when I know I had  
> seen reference to it somewhere.  Maybe in my request for items to be  
> included in the manual, the docstrings in org-capture.el would be  
> scanned.  I missed this on my cursory search of that file.  I will  
> search for it myself, and work on (believe it or not) org-help.org,  
> that I use as a helpmate.
>
> I have org-capture assigned to C-c, so C-u C-u C-c c goes straight  
> to the last stored item.  Perfect.
>
> |
> | (org-capture &optional GOTO KEYS)
> |
> I THINK I understand that GOTO here refers to the prefix C-u ?  And  
> C-u C-u circumvents this?
>
> | When called interactively with a C-u prefix argument GOTO, don't  
> capture
> | anything, just go to the file/headline where the selected template
> | stores its notes.  With a double prefix argument C-u C-u, go to  
> the last note
>                      
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> | stored.
>  ^^^^^^
>
> This is it! What I was looking for.
>
> I think, thought it may seem crazy, I would like to still have a way  
> to specify in the template that one would remain with the newly  
> captured item in its environment, after finalizing.   Just the same,  
> thinking about that it's an indirect buffer, it makes more sense how  
> it works now...

You can just widen during capture if you wish: C-x n w will show you  
the entire buffer.
You still need to finalize at some point with C-c C-c though.

>
> Awe, heck, these two methods solve my problem well enough...
>
> |
> | When called with a `C-0' (zero) prefix, insert a template at point.
> |
>
> This is a great feature...
>
> | Lisp programs can set KEYS to a string associated with a template in
> | `org-capture-templates'.  In this case, interactive selection will  
> be
> | bypassed.
> `----
>
> This is something I'd like to see an example of.

(defun my-capture-k ()
   (interactive)
   (org-capture nil "k"))

will directly get you into capture template k.

- Carsten

Re: Re: Questions about org-capture templates and usage

[Carsten Dominik]

On Dec 6, 2010, at 6:02 AM, Alan E. Davis wrote:

> I am at much greater ease due to these two messages.  They solve  
> several of my befuddlements about capture.
>
> On Mon, Dec 6, 2010 at 1:59 PM, Bernt Hansen <bernt@norang.ca> wrote:
> I visit newly captured items all the time.  If you capture something  
> (I
> have C-M-r bound to org-capture) and store it with C-c C-c you can  
> visit
> it immediately with a double prefix  C-u C-u C-M-r as stated in the
> org-capture docstring:
>
> This is exactly what I was looking for in the manual.  In fact, I  
> think my comment about the manual was partly a response to being  
> unable to find this item in the   manual, when I know I had seen  
> reference to it somewhere.  Maybe in my request for items to be  
> included in the manual, the docstrings in org-capture.el would be  
> scanned.  I missed this on my cursory search of that file.  I will  
> search for it myself, and work on (believe it or not) org-help.org,  
> that I use as a helpmate.
>
> I have org-capture assigned to C-c, so C-u C-u C-c c goes straight  
> to the last stored item.  Perfect.
>
> |
> | (org-capture &optional GOTO KEYS)
> |
> I THINK I understand that GOTO here refers to the prefix C-u ?  And  
> C-u C-u circumvents this?
>
> | When called interactively with a C-u prefix argument GOTO, don't  
> capture
> | anything, just go to the file/headline where the selected template
> | stores its notes.  With a double prefix argument C-u C-u, go to  
> the last note
>                      
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> | stored.
>  ^^^^^^
>
> This is it! What I was looking for.
>
> I think, thought it may seem crazy, I would like to still have a way  
> to specify in the template that one would remain with the newly  
> captured item in its environment, after finalizing.   Just the same,  
> thinking about that it's an indirect buffer, it makes more sense how  
> it works now...

You can now finalize with C-u C-c C-c to go to the captured item if  
you want.

- Carsten

>
> Awe, heck, these two methods solve my problem well enough...
>
> |
> | When called with a `C-0' (zero) prefix, insert a template at point.
> |
>
> This is a great feature...
>
> | Lisp programs can set KEYS to a string associated with a template in
> | `org-capture-templates'.  In this case, interactive selection will  
> be
> | bypassed.
> `----
>
> This is something I'd like to see an example of.
>
> Thank you again, and again,
>
> Alan Davis
>
> "Pollution is nothing but the resources we are not harvesting. We  
> allow them to disperse because we've been ignorant of their value."
>                                                                                        --- R 
> . Buckminster Fuller
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Emacs-orgmode mailing list
> Please use `Reply All' to send replies to the list.
> Emacs-orgmode@gnu.org
> http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/emacs-orgmode

- Carsten

Re: Questions about org-capture templates and usage

[Bernt Hansen]

"Alan E. Davis" <lngndvs@gmail.com> writes:

>     |
>     | (org-capture &optional GOTO KEYS)
>     |
>
> I THINK I understand that GOTO here refers to the prefix C-u ?  And C-u C-u circumvents this?

GOTO is the value of the prefix.  C-u has a value of 4

For C-u C-M-r       GOTO is set to 4 (due to the single prefix)
For C-u C-u C-M-r   GOTO is set to 16 (due to the double prefix)

The code for org-capture looks for specific prefix values and changes
the behaviour of the function accordingly.

,----[ code from org-capture ]
|    ((equal goto '(4)) (org-capture-goto-target))
|    ((equal goto '(16)) (org-capture-goto-last-stored))
`----

-Bernt

Re: Re: Questions about org-capture templates and usage

[Carsten Dominik]

On Dec 6, 2010, at 9:20 AM, Carsten Dominik wrote:

>
> On Dec 6, 2010, at 6:02 AM, Alan E. Davis wrote:
>
>> I am at much greater ease due to these two messages.  They solve  
>> several of my befuddlements about capture.
>>
>> On Mon, Dec 6, 2010 at 1:59 PM, Bernt Hansen <bernt@norang.ca> wrote:
>> I visit newly captured items all the time.  If you capture  
>> something (I
>> have C-M-r bound to org-capture) and store it with C-c C-c you can  
>> visit
>> it immediately with a double prefix  C-u C-u C-M-r as stated in the
>> org-capture docstring:
>>
>> This is exactly what I was looking for in the manual.
>
> Wow, I cannot believe I forgot to put these into the manual!  Crazy.
> They are in not (git version).

Sigh, one of my many standard typos:  They are in NOW.

- Carsten


>
>
>> In fact, I think my comment about the manual was partly a response  
>> to being unable to find this item in the   manual, when I know I  
>> had seen reference to it somewhere.  Maybe in my request for items  
>> to be included in the manual, the docstrings in org-capture.el  
>> would be scanned.  I missed this on my cursory search of that  
>> file.  I will search for it myself, and work on (believe it or not)  
>> org-help.org, that I use as a helpmate.
>>
>> I have org-capture assigned to C-c, so C-u C-u C-c c goes straight  
>> to the last stored item.  Perfect.
>>
>> |
>> | (org-capture &optional GOTO KEYS)
>> |
>> I THINK I understand that GOTO here refers to the prefix C-u ?  And  
>> C-u C-u circumvents this?
>>
>> | When called interactively with a C-u prefix argument GOTO, don't  
>> capture
>> | anything, just go to the file/headline where the selected template
>> | stores its notes.  With a double prefix argument C-u C-u, go to  
>> the last note
>>                     
>> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>> | stored.
>> ^^^^^^
>>
>> This is it! What I was looking for.
>>
>> I think, thought it may seem crazy, I would like to still have a  
>> way to specify in the template that one would remain with the newly  
>> captured item in its environment, after finalizing.   Just the  
>> same, thinking about that it's an indirect buffer, it makes more  
>> sense how it works now...
>
> You can just widen during capture if you wish: C-x n w will show you  
> the entire buffer.
> You still need to finalize at some point with C-c C-c though.
>
>>
>> Awe, heck, these two methods solve my problem well enough...
>>
>> |
>> | When called with a `C-0' (zero) prefix, insert a template at point.
>> |
>>
>> This is a great feature...
>>
>> | Lisp programs can set KEYS to a string associated with a template  
>> in
>> | `org-capture-templates'.  In this case, interactive selection  
>> will be
>> | bypassed.
>> `----
>>
>> This is something I'd like to see an example of.
>
> (defun my-capture-k ()
>  (interactive)
>  (org-capture nil "k"))
>
> will directly get you into capture template k.
>
> - Carsten
>

- Carsten

Re: Re: Questions about org-capture templates and usage

[Nick Dokos]

Alan E. Davis <lngndvs@gmail.com> wrote:

> 
> I have org-capture assigned to C-c, so C-u C-u C-c c goes straight to the last stored item.  Perfect.  

I presume the first `C-c' above is a typo and that the bindind is `C-c
c', as the second instance indicates. Rebinding C-c to a command would
be a disaster, but even C-c c is generally not a good idea: see the Key
Binding Conventions in the Emacs Lisp manual - if you have the manual
locally, evaluate the following

    (info "(elisp)Key Binding Conventions")

otherwise it's available online at

    http://www.gnu.org/software/emacs/manual/html_node/elisp/Key-Binding-Conventions.html#Key-Binding-Conventions

Nick

Re: Re: Questions about org-capture templates and usage

[Nathan Neff]

Great thread --

1) Good docs re:capture
2) Explanation of C-u and how org-capture uses it
3) Emacs keybinding guidelines
4) Notices of requests for more documentation on Worg

Also, I understood most of the things in this thread -- something must
be wrong with me.

--Nate

Re: Re: Questions about org-capture templates and usage

[Carsten Dominik]

Hi Nick,

On Dec 6, 2010, at 3:48 PM, Nick Dokos wrote:

> Alan E. Davis <lngndvs@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>
>> I have org-capture assigned to C-c, so C-u C-u C-c c goes straight  
>> to the last stored item.  Perfect.
>
> I presume the first `C-c' above is a typo and that the bindind is `C-c
> c', as the second instance indicates. Rebinding C-c to a command would
> be a disaster, but even C-c c is generally not a good idea:

The way I see it:  C-c belongs to the user, so it is a good key
for a global binding to org-capture if the user chooses
it - just like the documentation recommends.  Org mode does not
enforce this key, it just recommends it.

> see the Key
> Binding Conventions in the Emacs Lisp manual - if you have the manual
> locally, evaluate the following
>
>    (info "(elisp)Key Binding Conventions")
>
> otherwise it's available online at
>
>    http://www.gnu.org/software/emacs/manual/html_node/elisp/Key-Binding-Conventions.html#Key-Binding-Conventions
>
> Nick
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Emacs-orgmode mailing list
> Please use `Reply All' to send replies to the list.
> Emacs-orgmode@gnu.org
> http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/emacs-orgmode

Re: Re: Questions about org-capture templates and usage

[Carsten Dominik]

On Dec 6, 2010, at 6:57 PM, Nick Dokos wrote:

> Carsten Dominik <carsten.dominik@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Hi Nick,
>>
>> On Dec 6, 2010, at 3:48 PM, Nick Dokos wrote:
>>
>>> Alan E. Davis <lngndvs@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>> I have org-capture assigned to C-c, so C-u C-u C-c c goes straight
>>>> to the last stored item.  Perfect.
>>>
>>> I presume the first `C-c' above is a typo and that the bindind is  
>>> `C-c
>>> c', as the second instance indicates. Rebinding C-c to a command  
>>> would
>>> be a disaster, but even C-c c is generally not a good idea:
>>
>> The way I see it:  C-c belongs to the user, so it is a good key
>> for a global binding to org-capture if the user chooses
>> it - just like the documentation recommends.  Org mode does not
>> enforce this key, it just recommends it.
>>
>
> Yup, I spouted nonsense.

And I wrote `C-c' where I meant `C-c c' ... :/

- Carsten

Re: Questions about org-capture templates and usage

[Alan Davis]

I said:
,----
| I have org-capture assigned to C-c, so C-u C-u C-c c goes straight to
| the last stored item.  Perfect.   
`----

Org-capture is indeed bound to C-c c on my system.

This has indeed been a useful thread.  

Thank you one and all,

Alan 

 

Re: Questions about org-capture templates and usage

[Štěpán Němec]

Carsten Dominik <carsten.dominik@gmail.com> writes:

> Hi Nick,
>
> On Dec 6, 2010, at 3:48 PM, Nick Dokos wrote:
>
>> Alan E. Davis <lngndvs@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> I have org-capture assigned to C-c, so C-u C-u C-c c goes straight to the
>>> last stored item.  Perfect.
>>
>> I presume the first `C-c' above is a typo and that the bindind is `C-c
>> c', as the second instance indicates. Rebinding C-c to a command would
>> be a disaster, but even C-c c is generally not a good idea:
>
> The way I see it:  C-c belongs to the user, so it is a good key
> for a global binding to org-capture if the user chooses
> it - just like the documentation recommends.  Org mode does not
> enforce this key, it just recommends it.

Indeed. More precisely, C-c <alphabetic> belongs to the user, so `C-c c'
is a perfectly fine user binding (and so is thus the suggestion in the
docs).

  Štěpán

Re: Re: Questions about org-capture templates and usage

[Nick Dokos]

[Resending to the list, after fixing a mail problem. I badly wanted to
 correct my mistake, but my mail to the list kept disappearing.
 Apologies to Alan for the multiple copies.]


Nick Dokos <nicholas.dokos@hp.com> wrote:

> Alan E. Davis <lngndvs@gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> > I have org-capture assigned to C-c, so C-u C-u C-c c goes straight
> > to the last stored item.  Perfect.  
> 

> I presume the first `C-c' above is a typo and that the bindind is `C-c
> c', as the second instance indicates. Rebinding C-c to a command would
> be a disaster,

True so far, but the following is nonsense: please disregard...

> but even C-c c is generally not a good idea:

C-c <letter> should not be usurped by programs, *exactly* because
it is reserved for users.

Going-for-some-caffeine-ly yours,
Nick

> see the Key Binding Conventions in the Emacs Lisp manual - if you have
> the manual locally, evaluate the following
> 
>     (info "(elisp)Key Binding Conventions")
> 
> otherwise it's available online at
> 
>     http://www.gnu.org/software/emacs/manual/html_node/elisp/Key-Binding-Conventions.html#Key-Binding-Conventions
> 
> Nick
> 

Mail composed using emacs --- saving a copy in an org file.

[Alan E. Davis]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 714 bytes --]

I am partial to just opening a mail buffer and writing email in Emacs.
Just that.  However, it would be great to save a copy in an org file.

An emacs FAQ suggests sending a BCC or FCC to oneself.  What I want is a
copy stored in an org-mode subtree, with a convenient headline indicating
the name of the recipient and the date.

So far, I haven't gotten my head around the idea of using BABEL, and I
still like text for email.     My experiments with GNUS have not been very
successful.  So far.

I apologize for the naive level of this and some of my other questions.
Though I may not be getting the maximum usefulness of all of org-mode's
features, those features I do use are awesome.   Thank you.

Alan Davis

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Re: Mail composed using emacs --- saving a copy in an org file.

[Jos'h Fuller]

Hi!


You could try doing something with org-capture and the org-capture-templates so that you would be creating your email from the start as an org tree entry under the appropriate location. You can override the org-capture-before-finalize hook (see org-capture.el) to send the mail when you're done typing in the indirect buffer and hit C-c C-c (or org-capture-finalize).

I have org-capture set up so I can use it immediately from anywhere in Emacs with the C-cc keys:

   (define-key global-map "\C-cc" 'org-capture) 

That combined with a suitable template and the hook override might give you what you're looking for.

Hope this helps!

Jos'h Fuller, Production Programmer
p: 416.682.5200 x5395 | f: 416.682.5209 | Arc Productions Ltd. | 230 Richmond Street East | Toronto, ON M5A 1P4 | www.arcproductions.com 
 


> -----Original Message-----
> From: emacs-orgmode-bounces+jos'h.fuller=arcproductions.com@gnu.org
> [mailto:emacs-orgmode-bounces+jos'h.fuller=arcproductions.com@gnu.org]
> On Behalf Of Alan E. Davis
> Sent: Thursday, March 15, 2012 1:24 PM
> To: org-mode
> Subject: [O] Mail composed using emacs --- saving a copy in an org
> file.
> 
> I am partial to just opening a mail buffer and writing email in Emacs.
> Just that.  However, it would be great to save a copy in an org file.
> 
> An emacs FAQ suggests sending a BCC or FCC to oneself.  What I want is
> a copy stored in an org-mode subtree, with a convenient headline
> indicating the name of the recipient and the date.
> 
> So far, I haven't gotten my head around the idea of using BABEL, and I
> still like text for email.     My experiments with GNUS have not been
> very successful.  So far.
> 
> I apologize for the naive level of this and some of my other questions.
> Though I may not be getting the maximum usefulness of all of org-mode's
> features, those features I do use are awesome.   Thank you.
> 
> Alan Davis

Re: Mail composed using emacs --- saving a copy in an org file.

[Peter Salazar]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 2571 bytes --]

I thought of this too. But the problem is that when opening an indirect
buffer under an org tree entry, or even opening a capture buffer, the org
star heading appears at the top of the buffer. Whereas to send e-mail, at
least using the mail-send command I've been using, the e-mail header
(recipient, subject header, etc) needs to be at the very top of the buffer.

You could always enter the e-mail headers, send the e-mail, then delete
them again. But there must be a better solution.


On Thu, Mar 15, 2012 at 1:34 PM, Jos'h Fuller <
Jos'h.Fuller@arcproductions.com> wrote:

> Hi!
>
>
> You could try doing something with org-capture and the
> org-capture-templates so that you would be creating your email from the
> start as an org tree entry under the appropriate location. You can override
> the org-capture-before-finalize hook (see org-capture.el) to send the mail
> when you're done typing in the indirect buffer and hit C-c C-c (or
> org-capture-finalize).
>
> I have org-capture set up so I can use it immediately from anywhere in
> Emacs with the C-cc keys:
>
>   (define-key global-map "\C-cc" 'org-capture)
>
> That combined with a suitable template and the hook override might give
> you what you're looking for.
>
> Hope this helps!
>
> Jos'h Fuller, Production Programmer
> p: 416.682.5200 x5395 | f: 416.682.5209 | Arc Productions Ltd. | 230
> Richmond Street East | Toronto, ON M5A 1P4 | www.arcproductions.com
>
>
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: emacs-orgmode-bounces+jos'h.fuller=arcproductions.com@gnu.org
> > [mailto:emacs-orgmode-bounces+jos'h.fuller=arcproductions.com@gnu.org]
> > On Behalf Of Alan E. Davis
> > Sent: Thursday, March 15, 2012 1:24 PM
> > To: org-mode
> > Subject: [O] Mail composed using emacs --- saving a copy in an org
> > file.
> >
> > I am partial to just opening a mail buffer and writing email in Emacs.
> > Just that.  However, it would be great to save a copy in an org file.
> >
> > An emacs FAQ suggests sending a BCC or FCC to oneself.  What I want is
> > a copy stored in an org-mode subtree, with a convenient headline
> > indicating the name of the recipient and the date.
> >
> > So far, I haven't gotten my head around the idea of using BABEL, and I
> > still like text for email.     My experiments with GNUS have not been
> > very successful.  So far.
> >
> > I apologize for the naive level of this and some of my other questions.
> > Though I may not be getting the maximum usefulness of all of org-mode's
> > features, those features I do use are awesome.   Thank you.
> >
> > Alan Davis
>
>
>

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Re: Mail composed using emacs --- saving a copy in an org file.

[brian powell]

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* Josh's answer seems great.

** I used to use VM in EMACS, worked great, highly recommend it--you could
then use EMACS hooks like:

"vm-mail-hook
List of hook functions to be run after a Mail mode composition buffer has
been created to send a non specialized message, i.e. a message that is not
a reply, forward, digest, etc. VM runs this hook and then runs
vm-mail-mode-hook before leaving you in the Mail mode buffer.

--and hook those hooks (the list of hooks is 20+ long) up to creating an
OrgMode document---maybe somewhat in the way Josh suggested--e.g.:

(add-hook 'vm-summary-update-hook 'org-capture)

On Thu, Mar 15, 2012 at 1:24 PM, Alan E. Davis <lngndvs@gmail.com> wrote:

> I am partial to just opening a mail buffer and writing email in Emacs.
> Just that.  However, it would be great to save a copy in an org file.
>
> An emacs FAQ suggests sending a BCC or FCC to oneself.  What I want is a
> copy stored in an org-mode subtree, with a convenient headline indicating
> the name of the recipient and the date.
>
> So far, I haven't gotten my head around the idea of using BABEL, and I
> still like text for email.     My experiments with GNUS have not been very
> successful.  So far.
>
> I apologize for the naive level of this and some of my other questions.
> Though I may not be getting the maximum usefulness of all of org-mode's
> features, those features I do use are awesome.   Thank you.
>
> Alan Davis
>

[-- Attachment #2: Type: text/html, Size: 1889 bytes --]

Re: Mail composed using emacs --- saving a copy in an org file.

[brian powell]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 2167 bytes --]

* This would probably be a better "main hook" to use if you
elaborate/implement my suggestion:

vm-visit-folder-hook
List of hook functions called just after VM visits a folder. It doesn't
matter if the folder buffer already exists, this hook is run each time vm
or vm-visit-folder is called interactively. It is not run after vm-mode is
called.

** Then you change the mail folder into an OrgMode doc?

*** I vaguely remember this, may be wrong; but, I believe VM when saved as
folders, it is saved as simple text document you can then easily change
into .org docs using SED/AWK/PERL/PANDOC whatever.

On Thu, Mar 15, 2012 at 1:55 PM, brian powell <briangpowellms@gmail.com>wrote:

> * Josh's answer seems great.
>
> ** I used to use VM in EMACS, worked great, highly recommend it--you could
> then use EMACS hooks like:
>
> "vm-mail-hook
> List of hook functions to be run after a Mail mode composition buffer has
> been created to send a non specialized message, i.e. a message that is not
> a reply, forward, digest, etc. VM runs this hook and then runs
> vm-mail-mode-hook before leaving you in the Mail mode buffer.
>
> --and hook those hooks (the list of hooks is 20+ long) up to creating an
> OrgMode document---maybe somewhat in the way Josh suggested--e.g.:
>
> (add-hook 'vm-summary-update-hook 'org-capture)
>
>
> On Thu, Mar 15, 2012 at 1:24 PM, Alan E. Davis <lngndvs@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> I am partial to just opening a mail buffer and writing email in Emacs.
>> Just that.  However, it would be great to save a copy in an org file.
>>
>> An emacs FAQ suggests sending a BCC or FCC to oneself.  What I want is a
>> copy stored in an org-mode subtree, with a convenient headline indicating
>> the name of the recipient and the date.
>>
>> So far, I haven't gotten my head around the idea of using BABEL, and I
>> still like text for email.     My experiments with GNUS have not been very
>> successful.  So far.
>>
>> I apologize for the naive level of this and some of my other questions.
>> Though I may not be getting the maximum usefulness of all of org-mode's
>> features, those features I do use are awesome.   Thank you.
>>
>> Alan Davis
>>
>
>

[-- Attachment #2: Type: text/html, Size: 2961 bytes --]

Re: Mail composed using emacs --- saving a copy in an org file.

[Nick Dokos]

Alan E. Davis <lngndvs@gmail.com> wrote:

> I am partial to just opening a mail buffer and writing email in
> Emacs.  Just that.  However, it would be great to save a copy in an
> org file.
> 

Are you using an emacs package to send email? Or are you just composing
your email in emacs, saving it as a file and sending it with some
external MUA?

If the former, you can probably find a hook that the emacs package uses
(e.g. for mh-e, the appropriate hook would probably be
mh-before-send-letter-hook), so that you can save the email in a file,
possibly after transforming it suitably.

In some sense this is similar, but in another sense opposite, to Jos'h
Fuller's suggestion: in his scenario, you use org-capture to compose the
message and use an org-capture hook to transform it suitably and
actually send it; in this scenario, you compose the mail in some mail
package (there are several) and you use a hook that the mail package
provides to transform it suitably and save it in some org file.

OTOH, if you use an external MUA, Jos'h 's approach might still work
whereas this one has no hope. But if you can live in emacs, why live
anywhere else? :-)

Nick

> An emacs FAQ suggests sending a BCC or FCC to oneself.  What I want is
> a copy stored in an org-mode subtree, with a convenient headline
> indicating the name of the recipient and the date.
> 


> So far, I haven't gotten my head around the idea of using BABEL, and I still like text for email.  
>   My experiments with GNUS have not been very successful.  So far.
> 
> I apologize for the naive level of this and some of my other questions.  Though I may not be getting
> the maximum usefulness of all of org-mode's features, those features I do use are awesome.   Thank
> you.
> 

Re: Mail composed using emacs --- saving a copy in an org file.

[brian powell]

* Fully agree with nick--especially about the "please be more specific
about the MUA"-part--mh-e is another possibility--written by another
person I used to work with (mh)--vm was written by Kyle Jones--yet
another person I used to work with...

** Come to think of it; I used to use RMAIL too in EMACS--Kyle wrote
VM to include MIME/mail extensions, etc.

**** You mentioned that you tried GNUS as a mail reader, etc.--and you
didn't get what you wanted:

=> In a nutshell: MH/mh-e is the quintessential all-in-one extremely
customizable mail package and mh-e is the EMACS mode for
it--absolutely amazing and useful for email (written by
W3Org/consortium people I used to work with)--probably overkill for
you. RMAIL is old, slightly outdated--but very useful and simple, VM,
is better for you probably: This site/guru agrees with me--VM is your
best choice:

"Emacs has three built-in mail reading and sending interfaces:
RMAIL
RMAIL is a basic (and the default) mail reading package.
MH-E
MH-E is a front-end for the MH mail tools.
Gnus
Gnus is mainly a Usenet reading package but has capabilities for
reading mail and doing other strange things.
Now that you know your options inherent in Emacs I'm going to tell you
about my favorite non-standard mail user agent (MUA): VM (View Mail)
written by Kyle Jones."

<= http://linuxgazette.net/109/simpson.html

**** Back to hooks (that one may use to hook to org-capture) VM has a
lot of them ready for you to play with!:

http://www.wonderworks.com/vm/user-manual/vm_21.html

On Thu, Mar 15, 2012 at 3:19 PM, Nick Dokos <nicholas.dokos@hp.com> wrote:
>
> Alan E. Davis <lngndvs@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > I am partial to just opening a mail buffer and writing email in
> > Emacs.  Just that.  However, it would be great to save a copy in an
> > org file.
> >
>
> Are you using an emacs package to send email? Or are you just composing
> your email in emacs, saving it as a file and sending it with some
> external MUA?
>
> If the former, you can probably find a hook that the emacs package uses
> (e.g. for mh-e, the appropriate hook would probably be
> mh-before-send-letter-hook), so that you can save the email in a file,
> possibly after transforming it suitably.
>
> In some sense this is similar, but in another sense opposite, to Jos'h
> Fuller's suggestion: in his scenario, you use org-capture to compose the
> message and use an org-capture hook to transform it suitably and
> actually send it; in this scenario, you compose the mail in some mail
> package (there are several) and you use a hook that the mail package
> provides to transform it suitably and save it in some org file.
>
> OTOH, if you use an external MUA, Jos'h 's approach might still work
> whereas this one has no hope. But if you can live in emacs, why live
> anywhere else? :-)
>
> Nick
>
> > An emacs FAQ suggests sending a BCC or FCC to oneself.  What I want is
> > a copy stored in an org-mode subtree, with a convenient headline
> > indicating the name of the recipient and the date.
> >
>
>
> > So far, I haven't gotten my head around the idea of using BABEL, and I still like text for email.
> >   My experiments with GNUS have not been very successful.  So far.
> >
> > I apologize for the naive level of this and some of my other questions.  Though I may not be getting
> > the maximum usefulness of all of org-mode's features, those features I do use are awesome.   Thank
> > you.
> >
>
>

Re: Mail composed using emacs --- saving a copy in an org file.

[Karl Voit]

* Alan E. Davis <lngndvs@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> An emacs FAQ suggests sending a BCC or FCC to oneself.  What I want is a
> copy stored in an org-mode subtree, with a convenient headline indicating
> the name of the recipient and the date.

Hi!

Maybe Memacs[1] can get you what you want. Fully automatically,
without manual action (after initial setup).

If you got your emails stored in IMAP or maildir format you can use
the corresponding Memacs modules. They periodically index all your
emails and derive an Org-mode archive file containing header
information and an Org-mode timestamp which appears on your agenda
as well.

Drop me a line if it works for your requirements!

  1. https://github.com/novoid/Memacs
-- 
Karl Voit

Re: Mail composed using emacs --- saving a copy in an org file.

[brian powell]

* Wow! That looks like great software!  Looks like it very well might
do what Alan was looking for--and a whole lot more.

Just out of curiosity: Have you, Karl, looked into linking into doing
a "mashup" with GNOWSYS:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GNOWSYS

** Maybe GNOWSYS would be used after using/applying MEMACS.


> Drop me a line if it works for your requirements!
>
>  1. https://github.com/novoid/Memacs
> --
> Karl Voit
>
>

Memacs and Gnowsis (was: Mail composed using emacs --- saving a copy in an org file.)

[Karl Voit]

* brian powell <briangpowellms@gmail.com> wrote:
> * Wow! That looks like great software!  
>>  1. https://github.com/novoid/Memacs

It *is* :-) I enjoy using it every day!

> Looks like it very well might
> do what Alan was looking for--and a whole lot more.

Yes, a *lot* more than this. You realize the real beauty of Memacs
only when you already set up the system. With a Memacs-filled agenda
you get a cool overview of your digital (and analog) life :-)

> Just out of curiosity: Have you, Karl, looked into linking into doing
> a "mashup" with GNOWSYS:
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GNOWSYS

Sorry, I do not see a point in combining Memacs with Gnowsis. The
technical layer of Memacs is fairly simple. If Gnowsis wants to
include external data into their system, they can implement their
own parsers as well.

Or they implement an Org-mode-parser and include the resulting files
of Memacs.

Either way: Memacs does nothing else than generating condensed views
on the data you already got.

Or do you mean Memacs should provide a module that parses Gnowsis
data set?

-- 
Karl Voit