The statement on what is orgmode.

The statement on what is orgmode.

[Vikas Rawal]

The top title space on the orgmode website says: "Org mode is for
keeping notes, maintaining TODO lists, doing project planning, and
authoring with a fast and effective plain-text system."

Orgmode today does a lot more than organising/planning. I felt that
the above does not adequately reflect what orgmode is useful for. I
would think that a new visitor coming to the website would be mislead
to think that it is primarily a planning/to do application. For
example, writers/publishers who need to produce formatted output would
not think that there is something useful here for them.

I feel that the above statement does not adequately express that
orgmode can do this and a lot more.

Any comments/suggestions?

Vikas
              

Re: The statement on what is orgmode.

[Rasmus]

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Vikas Rawal <vikaslists@agrarianresearch.org> writes:

> I feel that the above statement does not adequately express that
> orgmode can do this and a lot more.
>
> Any comments/suggestions?

The text isn't that bad, but you are right.  Babel and exports is
perhaps underrepresented.  This one is slightly different, but perhaps
way to complicated.

"Orgmode is a Free/libre plain-text system for GNU Emacs for
organizing project, and maintaining TODO lists, keeping notes, doing
literate programming and exporting to many high quality formats."

Problems: many of the concepts are perhaps only intutive /after/ you
know Org-mode.

One remedy, to this, and a thing I think would be nice in any case,
would be if keywords in the presenting sentence would link to (worg?)
feature pages. 

For instance, export could link to a page briefly showing the many
exporters/features ¹ 

  - LaTeX
  - odt
  - plain text
  - html; blogs
  - beamer slides; html slides

For instance, such a page could show a simple org source file and the
exported version.

–Rasmus

Footnotes: 
 ¹   The org exporter is very impressive by now thanks to Nicolas,
Jambunathan, Luis and the rest of the gang.  Thanks.

-- 
If you can mix business and politics wonderful things can happen!

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Re: The statement on what is orgmode.

[Vikas Rawal]

> One remedy, to this, and a thing I think would be nice in any case,
> would be if keywords in the presenting sentence would link to (worg?)
> feature pages. 

Another possibility would be to make the title just say "Org mode".

And the first headline, before "Download and install", be something
like the following:

* Org mode is useful for
** Organising projects
** Maintaining TODO lists and calendars
** Keeping notes
** Creating high quality formatted documents
** Literate programming

Each of the above could then be linked to relevant pages of the manual
or worg.

Vikas

Re: The statement on what is orgmode.

[Eric Abrahamsen]

Vikas Rawal <vikaslists@agrarianresearch.org> writes:

>> One remedy, to this, and a thing I think would be nice in any case,
>> would be if keywords in the presenting sentence would link to (worg?)
>> feature pages. 
>
> Another possibility would be to make the title just say "Org mode".
>
> And the first headline, before "Download and install", be something
> like the following:
>
> * Org mode is useful for
> ** Organising projects
> ** Maintaining TODO lists and calendars
> ** Keeping notes
> ** Creating high quality formatted documents
> ** Literate programming
>
> Each of the above could then be linked to relevant pages of the manual
> or worg.

I like this -- it seems like the best crash-landing strategy for
new users is to give them a single comforting phrase to look at (I liked
the old "your life in plain text"), and then a concise list of things
that org does, like the above.

Re: The statement on what is orgmode.

[Jambunathan K]

Eric Abrahamsen <eric@ericabrahamsen.net> writes:

> Vikas Rawal <vikaslists@agrarianresearch.org> writes:
>
>>> One remedy, to this, and a thing I think would be nice in any case,
>>> would be if keywords in the presenting sentence would link to (worg?)
>>> feature pages. 
>>
>> Another possibility would be to make the title just say "Org mode".
>>
>> And the first headline, before "Download and install", be something
>> like the following:
>>
>> * Org mode is useful for
>> ** Organising projects
>> ** Maintaining TODO lists and calendars
>> ** Keeping notes
>> ** Creating high quality formatted documents
>> ** Literate programming
>>
>> Each of the above could then be linked to relevant pages of the manual
>> or worg.
>
> I like this -- it seems like the best crash-landing strategy for
> new users is to give them a single comforting phrase to look at (I liked
> the old "your life in plain text"), and then a concise list of things
> that org does, like the above.

When description becomes boring what is needed is a catchy phrase that
stirs up imagination.

    "Free/Libre Digital diary for DIY nuts/ Gen Z geeks/ nerds"

Freemind can create nice looking Mindmaps.

May be the above outline can be converted to a freemind which expands
and shrinks magically.

ps: I have org-e-freemind.el based on new exporter almost done.  It just
requires some tweaking before it lands.
-- 

Re: The statement on what is orgmode.

[Brian van den Broek]

On 6 December 2012 10:03, Jambunathan K <kjambunathan@gmail.com> wrote:

<snip>

> When description becomes boring what is needed is a catchy phrase that
> stirs up imagination.
>
>     "Free/Libre Digital diary for DIY nuts/ Gen Z geeks/ nerds"
>

Tongue only half-in cheek:

Org-mode: the text editor's best chance at achieving the singularity

Best,

Brian vdB

Re: The statement on what is orgmode.

[Axel E. Retif]

What about starting with a quote by Dr. Stefan Vollmar:

----

It's difficult to say what exactly Emacs' Org-mode will do for you; it's 
easier to list all things it doesn't do

----


You know, from MPI talk.


Best

Axel

Re: The statement on what is orgmode.

[David Rogers]

"Axel E. Retif" <axel.retif@mac.com> writes:

> What about starting with a quote by Dr. Stefan Vollmar:
>
> ----
>
> It's difficult to say what exactly Emacs' Org-mode will do for you;
> it's easier to list all things it doesn't do


I'm not SO sure that it's difficult. Let me try:

Org-mode is a set of processors that work in the background of Emacs to
convert your text into action and your chaos into structure. With the
help of those processors, almost anything you type while using Org-mode
is already a computer program.

-- 
David

Re: The statement on what is orgmode.

[Axel E. Retif]

On 12/06/2012 06:18 PM, David Rogers wrote:

> "Axel E. Retif" <axel.retif@mac.com> writes:
>
>> What about starting with a quote by Dr. Stefan Vollmar:
>>
>> ----
>>
>> It's difficult to say what exactly Emacs' Org-mode will do for you;
>> it's easier to list all things it doesn't do
>
>
> I'm not SO sure that it's difficult. Let me try:
>
> Org-mode is a set of processors that work in the background of Emacs to
> convert your text into action and your chaos into structure. With the
> help of those processors, almost anything you type while using Org-mode
> is already a computer program.


I very much like the phrase «... convert your text into action and your 
chaos into structure». Given Bastien's presentation, I think he would 
agree with this.

But, anyway, I stand by my statement that Dr. Vollmar's phrase is very 
good to intrigue would-be-users. I know it did it for me ---a couple of 
months old newbie. And thanks to org-mode now I'm also using exclusively 
AUCTeX for my work (copy-editor/typesetter).



Best

Axel

Re: The statement on what is orgmode.

[Vikas Rawal]

> 
> Org-mode is a set of processors that work in the background of Emacs to
> convert your text into action and your chaos into structure. With the
> help of those processors, almost anything you type while using Org-mode
> is already a computer program.

Well said. 

Vikas

Re: The statement on what is orgmode.

[Eric Abrahamsen]

David Rogers <davidandrewrogers@gmail.com> writes:

> "Axel E. Retif" <axel.retif@mac.com> writes:
>
>> What about starting with a quote by Dr. Stefan Vollmar:
>>
>> ----
>>
>> It's difficult to say what exactly Emacs' Org-mode will do for you;
>> it's easier to list all things it doesn't do
>
>
> I'm not SO sure that it's difficult. Let me try:
>
> Org-mode is a set of processors that work in the background of Emacs to
> convert your text into action and your chaos into structure. With the
> help of those processors, almost anything you type while using Org-mode
> is already a computer program.

While these things are true, and well-stated, they're not really going
to help someone who's just landed on the homepage and has no idea what
he/she is looking at. If I didn't already know what org did, these
descriptions would kind of beg the question...

Re: The statement on what is orgmode.

[Bastien]

Jambunathan K <kjambunathan@gmail.com> writes:

> ps: I have org-e-freemind.el based on new exporter almost done.  It just
> requires some tweaking before it lands.

Great news hidden in this threads!  Looking forward to testing this,

-- 
 Bastien

Re: The statement on what is orgmode.

[Vikas Rawal]

> like the following:
> 
> * Org mode is useful for
> ** Organising projects
> ** Maintaining TODO lists and calendars
> ** Keeping notes
> ** Creating high quality formatted documents
> ** Literate programming
> 
> Each of the above could then be linked to relevant pages of the manual
> or worg.

A slightly improved version in my view:

* Org mode is useful for
** Organising projects, maintaining TODO lists and calendars
** Creating high quality formatted documents
** Keeping notes
** Literate programming

Would everyone agree that before "Download and install", we have
something like the above on the front-page?

We would still need to decide what to do with the title. Following
suggestions have come so far:

1. Org-mode (only)
2. Org-mode: your life in plain text
3. "Orgmode is a Free/libre plain-text system for GNU Emacs for
organizing project, and maintaining TODO lists, keeping notes, doing
literate programming and exporting to many high quality formats."
4. Orgmode is a Free/libre plain-text versatile personal workflow and
information tool for GNU Emacs allowing you to keep and organize
notes, projects, calendars, do literate programming and reproducible
research, and export all your informations and documents to a variety
of cam-ready formats.
5. Org-mode: the text editor's best chance at achieving the singularity.
6. Org-mode: It's difficult to say what exactly Emacs' Org-mode will
do for you; it's easier to list all things it doesn't do.

I would actually vote for the old orgmode title phrase (option 2 above).

Vikas

Re: The statement on what is orgmode.

[Eric Schulte]

Vikas Rawal <vikaslists@agrarianresearch.org> writes:

>> like the following:
>> 
>> * Org mode is useful for
>> ** Organising projects
>> ** Maintaining TODO lists and calendars
>> ** Keeping notes
>> ** Creating high quality formatted documents
>> ** Literate programming
>> 
>> Each of the above could then be linked to relevant pages of the manual
>> or worg.
>
> A slightly improved version in my view:
>
> * Org mode is useful for
> ** Organising projects, maintaining TODO lists and calendars
> ** Creating high quality formatted documents
> ** Keeping notes
> ** Literate programming
>

Suggested slight change which mentions RR in addition to LP, and doesn't
abuse the outline syntax (one of the most common beginner mistakes IMO).

Org-mode is useful for
- Organising projects, maintaining TODO lists and calendars
- Creating high quality formatted documents
- Keeping notes
- Literate programming and Reproducible Research

>
> Would everyone agree that before "Download and install", we have
> something like the above on the front-page?
>
> We would still need to decide what to do with the title. Following
> suggestions have come so far:
>
> 1. Org-mode (only)
> 2. Org-mode: your life in plain text
> 3. "Orgmode is a Free/libre plain-text system for GNU Emacs for
> organizing project, and maintaining TODO lists, keeping notes, doing
> literate programming and exporting to many high quality formats."
> 4. Orgmode is a Free/libre plain-text versatile personal workflow and
> information tool for GNU Emacs allowing you to keep and organize
> notes, projects, calendars, do literate programming and reproducible
> research, and export all your informations and documents to a variety
> of cam-ready formats.
> 5. Org-mode: the text editor's best chance at achieving the singularity.
> 6. Org-mode: It's difficult to say what exactly Emacs' Org-mode will
> do for you; it's easier to list all things it doesn't do.
>
> I would actually vote for the old orgmode title phrase (option 2 above).
>

+1, I also like option 2 best of all those listed above.

>
> Vikas
>

-- 
Eric Schulte
http://cs.unm.edu/~eschulte

Re: The statement on what is orgmode.

[Vikas Rawal]

> 
> Org-mode is useful for
> - Organising projects, maintaining TODO lists and calendars
> - Creating high quality formatted documents
> - Keeping notes
> - Literate programming and Reproducible Research

Use lower case for RR, since everything else is lower case?

Vikas

Re: The statement on what is orgmode.

[Thomas S. Dye]

Vikas Rawal <vikaslists@agrarianresearch.org> writes:

>> 
>> Org-mode is useful for
>> - Organising projects, maintaining TODO lists and calendars
>> - Creating high quality formatted documents
>> - Keeping notes
>> - Literate programming and Reproducible Research
>
> Use lower case for RR, since everything else is lower case?
>
> Vikas
>
>
>
Yes, lowercase is better.

Tom

-- 
Thomas S. Dye
http://www.tsdye.com

Re: The statement on what is orgmode.

[Vikas Rawal]

> Suggested slight change which mentions RR in addition to LP, and doesn't
> abuse the outline syntax (one of the most common beginner mistakes IMO).
> 
> Org-mode is useful for
> - Organising projects, maintaining TODO lists and calendars
> - Creating high quality formatted documents
> - Keeping notes
> - Literate programming and Reproducible Research
> 

May I also say that, and I perhaps see it this way because I am not a
developer myself, it is useful to keep this top blurb simple and
accessible to non-geeks. orgmode is incredible. And it is really not
all that difficult and inaccessible. It is super-simple to use, and
from what I understand, this simplicity was at the core when Carsten
created it. You don't need to know any latex or html, and you can
produce brilliant documents. Etc...

orgmode is really something that can be enormously useful to writers,
social scientists, and a lot of other people. Some of our
documentation must remain as simple and accessible to non-geeks as, I
think, our software is.

Vikas

Re: The statement on what is orgmode.

[brian powell]

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> 6. Org-mode: It's difficult to say what exactly Emacs' Org-mode will
> do for you; it's easier to list all things it doesn't do.

Wow! Great thread.

I was going to ask the question "what @isn't@ Emacs OrgMode"--and not in a
trite way at all; in a serious way.

Emacs is a mode-less (concurrent major modes and minor modes galore) and an
infinitely extensible software tool.

OrgMode is an amazing tool that enables Emacs users the ability to do a
huge number of things, very simply and easily.

(E)macs (M)akes (A)ll (C)omputing (S)imple.

I often think: What are the "epistemological" limits of Emacs? What can't
you do or find out in Emacs?

Emacs has the fastest regexp engine (in the NFA and "first character
descrimination" sense--p.197 MRE, Friedl, et. al) for some things.

OrgMode's table interfaces with EmacsCalc--an extremely high-quality
science and math tool.

Seriously, you can do anything in/with Emacs; and, OrgMode works well in
most all other major modes in Emacs.

Remember the old icon symbol of Emacs--it literally is a picture of
"kitchen sink"--because you can do "everything except the kitchen sink" in
Emacs--and therefore OrgMode.

So, again, seriously, this thread is misnamed.  "What can't you do in
Emacs/OrgMode?"  What can't it be used for?--this should be the thread!

I'd really like to know.  Every week or two, something comes off my very
tiny list, which is just about empty.

Of course we all have computing limits of cpu and hard-drive space etc. so
those hard limits will always be the bottleneck as to what Emacs and
OrgMode can really be used for--buffers can only be so big.

Theoretically there are no limits here except computing limits--"P vs. NP"
is unproven--but P(space) is a hard limit.

Like with so many other things in life; Emacs OrgMode is what you make of
it.

If I had to chose: I vote for #1 or something like: "Its your life
[organized] in plain text."

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Re: The statement on what is orgmode.

[Alan Schmitt]

brian powell <briangpowellms@gmail.com> writes:

> If I had to chose: I vote for #1 or something like: "Its your life
> [organized] in plain text."

There have been great suggestions on how to explain what is org-mode.
But if we want a catch phrase I'd also vote for this.

Orgmode: your life, in plain text.

Alan

Re: The statement on what is orgmode.

[Rasmus]

> There have been great suggestions on how to explain what is org-mode.
> But if we want a catch phrase I'd also vote for this.
>
> Orgmode: your life, in plain text.

I like the idea of a catch phrase (your life, in plain text) and
perhaps a more detailed paragraph belows, potentially with links.

–Rasmus

-- 
C is for Cookie

Re: The statement on what is orgmode.

[Brett Viren]

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Rasmus <rasmus@gmx.us> writes:

>> Orgmode: your life, in plain text.
>
> I like the idea of a catch phrase (your life, in plain text) and
> perhaps a more detailed paragraph belows, potentially with links.

This phrase is also what first comes to my mind when I try to explain
org-mode to others.

However, it is clear there are many apt description-blurbs.  How about
having a database along the lines of "what people are saying about
org-mode" that is initially seeded with what has come up in this thread
and then have each refresh of the main org page select and present a new
one?  I'm sure there are lots of issues and details with this idea so I
just toss it out there.

-Brett.

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Re: The statement on what is orgmode.

[David Rogers]

brian powell <briangpowellms@gmail.com> writes:


> So, again, seriously, this thread is misnamed.  "What can't you do in
> Emacs/OrgMode?"  What can't it be used for?--this should be the thread!
>
> I'd really like to know.  Every week or two, something comes off my very
> tiny list, which is just about empty.

Seriously seriously?

Things you can't do in Emacs that feel as if they *should* be practical,
even though they currently are not

- Web browsing with ease, and with a full list of currently-expected
  features (i.e. features to make the general public say "Wow! This is
  much better than Firefox! I'm switching to this for banking, and for
  everything else as well!" - not "Umm, why does it look like
  this?"). This single (admittedly huge) feature, probably along with
  the next one, are IMO the "killer features" that Emacs does not have.

- Ability to continue working in other buffers when one buffer is
  busy. Combine this feature and the one mentioned above, and I (perhaps
  along with a lot of other people) move from two primary every-day
  applications down to one.

- WYSIWYG word processing with multiple fonts per page, adjustable
  margins, and named styles (not saying it should ever be implemented,
  just saying it's something Emacs can't currently be used for)


And how about fantasy-but-would-be-really-useful features? Nearly unlimited.

- Fully-functioning, practical Org-mode & Gnus & Emacs on a touch screen

- Optical character recognition within Emacs

- Text entry by voice (including programming languages) within Emacs

- Hand-written text entry directly into Emacs, including filling in web forms


And then comes the truly unlimited category of "What, are you crazy???"

- Emacs Movie Editor

- Emacs Music Recording Studio

- Emacs Audio-To-Text Song Lyrics Transcriber

- "SkypEmacs" simultaneous videoconferencing and collaborative text
  editing, where the participants all type into the same document at
  once, but also their entire voice conversation is automatically
  transcribed to plain text, and that transcription saved in the same
  directory as the document.

(i.e. things that prove "It isn't all text after all, but some of it is".)


-- 
David

What can *not* be done with Org-mode yet (was: The statement on what is orgmode.)

[Karl Voit]

I do like those kind of future/brainstorming threads :-)

* David Rogers <davidandrewrogers@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Things you can't do in Emacs that feel as if they *should* be practical,
> even though they currently are not
[...]
> - Ability to continue working in other buffers when one buffer is
>   busy. Combine this feature and the one mentioned above, and I (perhaps
>   along with a lot of other people) move from two primary every-day
>   applications down to one.

Well this relates to me to:
- Multi-threaded GNU/Emacs

... because I have multiple CPU cores but Emacs (and Org-mode
obviously) is only able to use one single core :-(

Usually I do not care. But for complex agenda commands, I have to
wait 5-30 seconds some times. :-(

Sure, this is not an Org-mode specific issue at all.

> - WYSIWYG word processing with multiple fonts per page, adjustable
>   margins, and named styles (not saying it should ever be implemented,
>   just saying it's something Emacs can't currently be used for)

... and should not IMHO.

> And how about fantasy-but-would-be-really-useful features? Nearly unlimited.
>
> - Fully-functioning, practical Org-mode & Gnus & Emacs on a touch screen

https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.zielm.emacs&hl=en
... Org-mode works as well.

Note that you have to use "Hackers keyboard"[1] in order to type
Meta, Ctrl, ...

I could not find any hardware keyboard for Android which provided me
working ESC, Meta, Ctrl, ... so far.

> - Optical character recognition within Emacs

This would be awesome! I do have many hand written notes I wanted to
be digitized and searchable. No, I do not want them to be published
in any cloud not owned by me.

> - Text entry by voice (including programming languages) within Emacs

In a few years, this should be a normal option for entering simple
text. 

> - Hand-written text entry directly into Emacs, including filling in web forms

Sorry, I am *much* faster using any kind of hardware keyboard (not
on-screen ones).


  1. https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=org.pocketworkstation.pckeyboard&feature=search_result#?t=W251bGwsMSwxLDEsIm9yZy5wb2NrZXR3b3Jrc3RhdGlvbi5wY2tleWJvYXJkIl0.
-- 
Karl Voit

Re: [OFFTOPIC] The statement on what is orgmode.

[Eric Schulte]

>
> Things you can't do in Emacs that feel as if they *should* be practical,
> even though they currently are not
>
> - Web browsing with ease, and with a full list of currently-expected
>   features (i.e. features to make the general public say "Wow! This is
>   much better than Firefox! I'm switching to this for banking, and for
>   everything else as well!" - not "Umm, why does it look like
>   this?"). This single (admittedly huge) feature, probably along with
>   the next one, are IMO the "killer features" that Emacs does not have.
>
> - Ability to continue working in other buffers when one buffer is
>   busy. Combine this feature and the one mentioned above, and I (perhaps
>   along with a lot of other people) move from two primary every-day
>   applications down to one.
>

I can sympathize with these first two points.  Until the symbolics lisp
machine is resurrected and we return to a world of parens and turtles
all the way down, I've resigned myself to living in a mixed lisp/unix
environment.  That said, I've been able to cobble together an interface
which very closely approximates an Emacs operating system.

1. A tiling window manager (I personally use xmonad [1]).  This lets you
   navigate all of your windows as if they were Emacs buffers, and
   allows one to go hours using multiple applications without having to
   use a mouse.

2. Conkeror [2], a web browser built on the same code base as Firefox,
   which makes web browsing as Emacs-like as possible (e.g., tabs are
   buffers, and most of the main key chords are the same).

The major component my desktop is missing is a system-wide kill ring.
I've used tools which purport to provide this, but have yet to find one
that works the way I want it to.

Cheers,

Footnotes: 
[1]  http://xmonad.org

[2]  http://conkeror.org/

-- 
Eric Schulte
http://cs.unm.edu/~eschulte

Re: [OFFTOPIC] The statement on what is orgmode.

[Rasmus]

Eric Schulte <schulte.eric@gmail.com> writes:

> 1. A tiling window manager (I personally use xmonad [1]).  This lets you
>    navigate all of your windows as if they were Emacs buffers, and
>    allows one to go hours using multiple applications without having to
>    use a mouse.

I use i3.  It's nice and can be configured to use the Windows key on
my laptop so that it is not intruding with Emacs.

> 2. Conkeror [2], a web browser built on the same code base as Firefox,
>    which makes web browsing as Emacs-like as possible (e.g., tabs are
>    buffers, and most of the main key chords are the same).

I use Keysnail ¹  which runs with normal Firefox and gives it more of an
Emacs feel.  Obviously, not as much as Conkeror, but it allows you to
follow Firefox bleeding edge and still have nice key bindings etc.

–Rasmus


Footnotes: 
 ¹   https://github.com/mooz/keysnail/wiki

-- 
C is for Cookie

Re: The statement on what is orgmode.

[Ivan Andrus]

On Dec 7, 2012, at 9:50 AM, David Rogers <davidandrewrogers@gmail.com> wrote:
> brian powell <briangpowellms@gmail.com> writes:
> 
>> So, again, seriously, this thread is misnamed.  "What can't you do in
>> Emacs/OrgMode?"  What can't it be used for?--this should be the thread!
>> 
>> I'd really like to know.  Every week or two, something comes off my very
>> tiny list, which is just about empty.
> 
> Seriously seriously?
> 
> Things you can't do in Emacs that feel as if they *should* be practical,
> even though they currently are not
> 
> - Web browsing with ease, and with a full list of currently-expected
>  features (i.e. features to make the general public say "Wow! This is
>  much better than Firefox! I'm switching to this for banking, and for
>  everything else as well!" - not "Umm, why does it look like
>  this?"). This single (admittedly huge) feature, probably along with
>  the next one, are IMO the "killer features" that Emacs does not have.

Well, "with ease" is the problem there, eh?  I think that's the problem with most of the rest of these as well.  I think the problem is someone thinks, "Hey, X would be cool in Emacs" and so they start implementing it.  But then it's not as cool as they thought and since it _really_ hard to compete with some of the existing software that does X, they give up and the result is that it "barely works".    I have included some links below as evidence.  I have no affiliation with any of them (even as user) so I cannot say whether they work or don't or how well, etc.  This list is intended for entertainment purposes only, comes with no warranty expressed or implied… It just amazes me the things that people are willing to try to implement in Emacs.

> - Ability to continue working in other buffers when one buffer is
>  busy. Combine this feature and the one mentioned above, and I (perhaps
>  along with a lot of other people) move from two primary every-day
>  applications down to one.

I agree, this would be very nice.

> - WYSIWYG word processing with multiple fonts per page, adjustable
>  margins, and named styles (not saying it should ever be implemented,
>  just saying it's something Emacs can't currently be used for)
 
Well, there is enriched-mode.  I did use this once briefly.


> And how about fantasy-but-would-be-really-useful features? Nearly unlimited.
> 
> - Fully-functioning, practical Org-mode & Gnus & Emacs on a touch screen

Would Emacs be Emacs without 5 modifier keys?

> - Optical character recognition within Emacs

http://emacspeak.sourceforge.net/info/emacspeak_002docr.html

> - Text entry by voice (including programming languages) within Emacs

http://www.emacswiki.org/emacs/SpeechToText

> - Hand-written text entry directly into Emacs, including filling in web forms

Maybe if you speak Chinese: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hC6l8gDaYzQ


> And then comes the truly unlimited category of "What, are you crazy???"

Yes, Emacs users are crazy!

> - Emacs Movie Editor

Maybe you haven't heard of https://savannah.nongnu.org/projects/gneve/ ?  I was originally going to just reply with just this link, but then I did some searching and found the rest.

> - Emacs Music Recording Studio

Not a studio, but maybe a step in the right direction: http://emacswiki.org/emacs/erec.el

> - Emacs Audio-To-Text Song Lyrics Transcriber

This one seems very hard, and in fact I could not find anyone who has tried.

> - "SkypEmacs" simultaneous videoconferencing and collaborative text
>  editing, where the participants all type into the same document at
>  once, but also their entire voice conversation is automatically
>  transcribed to plain text, and that transcription saved in the same
>  directory as the document.

I think this is probably only chat, but there is https://github.com/buzztaiki/emacs-skype

> (i.e. things that prove "It isn't all text after all, but some of it is".)

:-)

-Ivan

Re: The statement on what is orgmode.

[Vikas Rawal]

> >> So, again, seriously, this thread is misnamed.  "What can't you do in
> >> Emacs/OrgMode?"  What can't it be used for?--this should be the thread!
> >> 
> >> I'd really like to know.  Every week or two, something comes off my very
> >> tiny list, which is just about empty.
> > 
> > Seriously seriously?
> > 

Sorry to interrupt, but may I suggest that we turn our heads back to
the original focus of this thread, the statement on the orgmode
website.

Is Bastien watching this thread? Isn't he the one who has to finally
change it on the website?

Vikas

Re: The statement on what is orgmode.

[David Rogers]

Ivan Andrus <darthandrus@gmail.com> writes:

> On Dec 7, 2012, at 9:50 AM, David Rogers <davidandrewrogers@gmail.com> wrote:

>> And how about fantasy-but-would-be-really-useful features? Nearly unlimited.
>> 
>> - Fully-functioning, practical Org-mode & Gnus & Emacs on a touch screen
>
> Would Emacs be Emacs without 5 modifier keys?
>
>> - Optical character recognition within Emacs
>
> http://emacspeak.sourceforge.net/info/emacspeak_002docr.html

Unfortunately, implements everything to do with OCR... except the
important part. :) (Try our new OCR application! To make it run, all you
have to do is write your own OCR engine!) :P


>> - Text entry by voice (including programming languages) within Emacs
>
> http://www.emacswiki.org/emacs/SpeechToText

Cool, I had no idea.


>> - Hand-written text entry directly into Emacs, including filling in
>> web forms
>
> Maybe if you speak Chinese: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hC6l8gDaYzQ
>
>
>> And then comes the truly unlimited category of "What, are you crazy???"
>
> Yes, Emacs users are crazy!
>
>> - Emacs Movie Editor
>
> Maybe you haven't heard of https://savannah.nongnu.org/projects/gneve/
> ?  I was originally going to just reply with just this link, but then
> I did some searching and found the rest.

Here again I had no idea.

>
>> - Emacs Music Recording Studio
>
> Not a studio, but maybe a step in the right direction:
> http://emacswiki.org/emacs/erec.el
>
>> - Emacs Audio-To-Text Song Lyrics Transcriber
>
> This one seems very hard, and in fact I could not find anyone who has
> tried.

This task is not easy for a lot of humans. No surprise that it's hard
for machines that don't even understand spoken language. (Code that
transcribes music notation from a recording would be even more difficult
and even more spectacular - but of course has nothing to do with Emacs,
except in the sense that Emacs has something to do with nearly
everything.) :)


-- 
David

Re: The statement on what is orgmode.

[James Harkins]

Semi-off topic, related to this:

brian powell <briangpowellms@gmail.com> writes:

> So, again, seriously, this thread is misnamed.  "What can't you do in
> Emacs/OrgMode?"  What can't it be used for?--this should be the thread!

I had four main uses for emacs:

- Programming in SuperCollider
- Email (wanderlust)
- Editing of Lilypond source files for music notation
- Org

Lilypond was the first to go. Lilypond-mode is basically unmaintained, and its 
code completion is rather poor compared to the dedicated, qt-based editor 
Frescobaldi.

Then SuperCollider 3.6 came out, with a new, dedicated qt-based editor, again 
improving on the code completion available in sclang-mode.

Then I got a tablet and started doing email on it, and lost interest in 
wanderlust.

So now I'm down to using emacs just for org-mode and... that's [expletive] 
spectacular all by itself :)  In the last year, using beamer export for my class 
presentations opened my eyes to org-mode as a writing tool. My next paper will 
be written entirely in org-mode, looking forward to that!

hjh

Re: The statement on what is orgmode.

[Vikas Rawal]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 387 bytes --]

> Org-mode is useful for
> > - Organising projects, maintaining TODO lists and calendars
> > - Creating high quality formatted documents
> > - Keeping notes
> > - Literate programming and Reproducible Research
> >
>
>
After a rather fruitful discussion, this thread has gone dead before
power-that-be would take note. Who is responsible for making changes on the
orgmode website?

Vikas

[-- Attachment #2: Type: text/html, Size: 682 bytes --]

Re: The statement on what is orgmode.

[Bastien]

Vikas Rawal <vikaslists@agrarianresearch.org> writes:

> After a rather fruitful discussion, this thread has gone dead before
> power-that-be would take note. Who is responsible for making changes
> on the orgmode website?

Until someone volonteers to maintain the website, I am in charge.

Can you summarize the change we need to make?

If not, I will process this when I have some time.

Thanks,

-- 
 Bastien

Re: The statement on what is orgmode.

[Thomas S. Dye]

Aloha all,

I was just looking at the Org mode web site and thought this edit might
contribute to the discussion.

This text at the top of Org mode web site:

Org mode is for keeping notes, maintaining TODO lists, doing project
planning, and authoring with a fast and effective plain-text system.

Might better be:

Org mode is for keeping notes, maintaining TODO lists, planning
projects, and authoring documents with a fast and effective plain-text
system.

Happy holidays,
Tom

Bastien <bzg@altern.org> writes:

> Vikas Rawal <vikaslists@agrarianresearch.org> writes:
>
>> After a rather fruitful discussion, this thread has gone dead before
>> power-that-be would take note. Who is responsible for making changes
>> on the orgmode website?
>
> Until someone volonteers to maintain the website, I am in charge.
>
> Can you summarize the change we need to make?
>
> If not, I will process this when I have some time.
>
> Thanks,

-- 
Thomas S. Dye
http://www.tsdye.com

Re: The statement on what is orgmode.

[Bastien]

Hi Thomas,

tsd@tsdye.com (Thomas S. Dye) writes:

> Might better be:
>
> Org mode is for keeping notes, maintaining TODO lists, planning
> projects, and authoring documents with a fast and effective plain-text
> system.

Indeed, I just updated the website.  Thanks!

-- 
 Bastien

Re: The statement on what is orgmode.

[Karl Voit]

I describe Org-mode to people using something like: «Org-mode is a
very large box of LEGO bricks. What it does for you? It depends on
the bricks you use and how you combine them. It adopts to your
requirements.»

* Vikas Rawal <vikaslists@agrarianresearch.org> wrote:
>
> A slightly improved version in my view:
>
> * Org mode is useful for
> ** Organising projects, maintaining TODO lists and calendars
> ** Creating high quality formatted documents
> ** Keeping notes
> ** Literate programming

** Organizing your thoughts (might be redundant to above)
** Managing contacts[1]
** Managing references[2]
** Re-claim you data from the Cloud[3]
** ...

  1. http://julien.danjou.info/projects/emacs-packages#org-contacts
  2. http://www-public.it-sudparis.eu/~berger_o/weblog/2012/03/23/how-to-manage-and-export-bibliographic-notesrefs-in-org-mode/
  3. https://github.com/novoid/Memacs
-- 
Karl Voit

Re: The statement on what is orgmode.

[Bastien]

7. Org-mode: don't tell your boss.

Vikas Rawal <vikaslists@agrarianresearch.org> writes:

> 1. Org-mode (only)
> 2. Org-mode: your life in plain text
> 3. "Orgmode is a Free/libre plain-text system for GNU Emacs for
> organizing project, and maintaining TODO lists, keeping notes, doing
> literate programming and exporting to many high quality formats."
> 4. Orgmode is a Free/libre plain-text versatile personal workflow and
> information tool for GNU Emacs allowing you to keep and organize
> notes, projects, calendars, do literate programming and reproducible
> research, and export all your informations and documents to a variety
> of cam-ready formats.
> 5. Org-mode: the text editor's best chance at achieving the singularity.
> 6. Org-mode: It's difficult to say what exactly Emacs' Org-mode will
> do for you; it's easier to list all things it doesn't do.

-- 
 Bastien

Re: The statement on what is orgmode.

[Bastien]

Hi Vikas,

Vikas Rawal <vikaslists@agrarianresearch.org> writes:

> And the first headline, before "Download and install", be something
> like the following:
>
> * Org mode is useful for
> ** Organising projects
> ** Maintaining TODO lists and calendars
> ** Keeping notes
> ** Creating high quality formatted documents
> ** Literate programming
>
> Each of the above could then be linked to relevant pages of the manual
> or worg.

Be careful not to be redundant with the list of features here:

  http://orgmode.org/features.html

What I would love is to have some videos instead of the pictures
on the features page.  Anyone?

Also, orgweb.git is publicly accessible here:

  git://orgmode.org/orgweb.git

Patch welcome!

-- 
 Bastien

Re: The statement on what is orgmode.

[Sebastien Vauban]

Hi Vikas,

Vikas Rawal wrote:
> The top title space on the orgmode website says: "Org mode is for
> keeping notes, maintaining TODO lists, doing project planning, and
> authoring with a fast and effective plain-text system."
>
> Orgmode today does a lot more than organising/planning.

FYI, AFAIK, that comes from the 24/7 pitches which Nobel prize winners have to
make. They must explain in 7 or in 24 words what their work is about. That
sentence is the one from Carsten, a few years back, I guess before Babel and
many more...

Best regards,
  Seb

-- 
Sebastien Vauban

Re: The statement on what is orgmode.

[Jambunathan K]

Vikas Rawal <vikaslists@agrarianresearch.org> writes:

> The top title space on the orgmode website says: "Org mode is for
> keeping notes, maintaining TODO lists, doing project planning, and
> authoring with a fast and effective plain-text system."
>
> Orgmode today does a lot more than organising/planning. I felt that
> the above does not adequately reflect what orgmode is useful for. I
> would think that a new visitor coming to the website would be mislead
> to think that it is primarily a planning/to do application. For
> example, writers/publishers who need to produce formatted output would
> not think that there is something useful here for them.
>
> I feel that the above statement does not adequately express that
> orgmode can do this and a lot more.
>
> Any comments/suggestions?

Why not just type out what the page should say?  That is in the spirit
of collaborative way of using things.

Your mail sounds more like a complaint, but with a polite tone.

> Vikas
>               
>
>

-- 

Re: The statement on what is orgmode.

[Vikas Rawal]

> 
> Why not just type out what the page should say?  That is in the spirit
> of collaborative way of using things.
> 
> Your mail sounds more like a complaint, but with a polite tone.

Oops. I was not complaining. I am sorry if my mail gave that
impression. I raised an issue. Or, what I thought was an issue. In my
first mail, I did not suggest a formulation because I was not sure
what I wanted it to be. Also, I thought it was better to first see if
others thought there was an issue in what I was saying.

In my second mail, I have made a suggestion. I am not sure if that is
the best solution. May be somebody can come up with a better solution.
But I have suggested what my little mind could come up with.

Vikas

Re: The statement on what is orgmode.

[Marco]

Hi there,

I had to describe orgmode to a young colleague of mine... and I came
up with something like:

Orgmode is a Free/libre plain-text versatile personal workflow and
information tool for GNU Emacs allowing you to keep and organize
notes, projects, calendars, do literate programming and reproducible
research, and export all your informations and documents to a variety
of cam-ready formats.

the important bit being IMHO "personal workflow and information tool"
(or companion or manager).

Just 2 cents.
Marco