* AI for orgmode
@ 2010-03-18 20:32 Leo
2010-03-19 17:08 ` Carsten Dominik
0 siblings, 1 reply; 9+ messages in thread
From: Leo @ 2010-03-18 20:32 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: emacs-orgmode
Hello,
Sorry to use a subject like this.
A few weeks ago I saw slides of a presentation (link available on
http://netzhansa.blogspot.com/2010/02/clojure-sliders-from-february-berlin.html)
about using clojure (one of lisp languages) for developing intelligent
project management software. I think the idea is great although the
slides didn't present how their company did it. With a bit of brain
storming we might be able to come up with something great for orgmode
and to take orgmode to another level of greatness: zero configuration
with some intelligence ;)
BTW, recently while talking with some chap on #lisp irc channel who was
seeking a GTD tool (folks there usually are already literate with Emacs
since SLIME is the best tool for developing common lisp applications).
He told me that he had tried to adopt org mode but unfortunately he
could not get it to where he wanted it to be in an afternoon, so he had
to abandon it. And he is experienced in lisp programming since that is
his job.
Thinking about my own experience, I didn't feel the pain since I
gradually changing my org mode configuration over a few years. but I
could understand the frustration.
Leo
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 9+ messages in thread
* Re: AI for orgmode
2010-03-18 20:32 AI for orgmode Leo
@ 2010-03-19 17:08 ` Carsten Dominik
2010-03-19 22:55 ` John Hendy
` (2 more replies)
0 siblings, 3 replies; 9+ messages in thread
From: Carsten Dominik @ 2010-03-19 17:08 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Leo; +Cc: emacs-orgmode
On Mar 18, 2010, at 9:32 PM, Leo wrote:
> Hello,
>
> Sorry to use a subject like this.
>
> A few weeks ago I saw slides of a presentation (link available on
> http://netzhansa.blogspot.com/2010/02/clojure-sliders-from-february-berlin.html)
> about using clojure (one of lisp languages) for developing intelligent
> project management software. I think the idea is great although the
> slides didn't present how their company did it. With a bit of brain
> storming we might be able to come up with something great for orgmode
> and to take orgmode to another level of greatness: zero configuration
> with some intelligence ;)
>
> BTW, recently while talking with some chap on #lisp irc channel who
> was
> seeking a GTD tool (folks there usually are already literate with
> Emacs
> since SLIME is the best tool for developing common lisp applications).
> He told me that he had tried to adopt org mode but unfortunately he
> could not get it to where he wanted it to be in an afternoon, so he
> had
> to abandon it. And he is experienced in lisp programming since that is
> his job.
>
> Thinking about my own experience, I didn't feel the pain since I
> gradually changing my org mode configuration over a few years. but I
> could understand the frustration.
I would be interested in a discussion on how to decrease the startup
pain in a clever way.
- Carsten
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 9+ messages in thread
* Re: AI for orgmode
2010-03-19 17:08 ` Carsten Dominik
@ 2010-03-19 22:55 ` John Hendy
2010-03-20 0:48 ` Darlan Cavalcante Moreira
2010-03-20 10:16 ` Leo
2010-03-20 22:50 ` Łukasz Stelmach
2 siblings, 1 reply; 9+ messages in thread
From: John Hendy @ 2010-03-19 22:55 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Carsten Dominik; +Cc: emacs-orgmode, Leo
[-- Attachment #1.1: Type: text/plain, Size: 4821 bytes --]
On Fri, Mar 19, 2010 at 12:08 PM, Carsten Dominik <carsten.dominik@gmail.com
> wrote:
>
> On Mar 18, 2010, at 9:32 PM, Leo wrote:
>
> Hello,
>>
>
<beginning removed>
>
>> BTW, recently while talking with some chap on #lisp irc channel who was
>> seeking a GTD tool (folks there usually are already literate with Emacs
>> since SLIME is the best tool for developing common lisp applications).
>> He told me that he had tried to adopt org mode but unfortunately he
>> could not get it to where he wanted it to be in an afternoon, so he had
>> to abandon it. And he is experienced in lisp programming since that is
>> his job.
>>
>> Thinking about my own experience, I didn't feel the pain since I
>> gradually changing my org mode configuration over a few years. but I
>> could understand the frustration.
>>
>
> I would be interested in a discussion on how to decrease the startup
> pain in a clever way.
>
> - Carsten
>
>
I just started using org-mode and emacs this week. I looked around a couple
of months ago for a task manager and found a lot of posts on planner and
org-mode but was turned off by the apparently steep learning curve. I think
the word 'piecemeal' seems to come up a lot in people's learning tendencies.
For example, when looking a Sacha Chua's blogs about org-mode, seeing her
code to do what I thought was 'one simple thing' was completely revolting...
not because I didn't think it was awesome or desirable, but because it made
me feel like I would never understand or learn to ever be where her and
other users have gotten themselves after months and years of use.
'Nuff blabber. Some practical ideas to add to the discussion:
- Perhaps include an extremely brief topic about Emacs in the org-mode
material. I realize one can get over to Emacs and read that, too, but as
someone who picked up Emacs specifically *for* org-mode, it would have
helped to just know some basics:
--- As done already, it's great to have the info about 'get emacs, then
install org-mode and activate it like this'. I've used Linux for about 4
years and am familiar enough to get Emacs... just not run it!
--- Open your first org-mode file with C-x C-f; now type in a location and
file_name.org to create an org-mode file
--- To save your file while you work, press C-x C-s
- Maybe make some kind of uber-beginner documentation? The manual is plainly
awesome... *but* it *could* have a section solely for brand-spanking new
beginners who might get overwhelmed at trying to remember all the C-this
M-that stuff... What about making the commands into hierarchical levels.
Example:
--- Take the 2.1 Outlines section
--- What about simply leaving it as covering the headlines,
unordered/ordered lists, and some basic structure editing at the top of the
section? Cover asterisks, M-arrows to move headlines and [pro/de]mote, etc.
--- Include all the advanced commands in a section afterward?
- Or, as an alternative idea, just have a set of beginner documentation.
Intentionally make it limited. Specify that arrows work fine (for now)
instead of overwhelming them with C-c C-n and the rest?
- Perhaps have a suggestion for beginner migration to org-mode? I would have
loved to know:
--- I eventually figured out myself that 1) I thought Emacs in general and
org-mode in specific were worthwhile investments of my time and 2) that
trying to learn Emacs and org-mode were gong to be really hard and I was not
sure that it was a feasible given my work and family life.
--- What I ended up thinking to myself was simply that I would just start
simple: just take daily work notes in outline format with org-mode. Postpone
learning all the todo functionality, the tasks and agenda views, exporting
(other than the quick C-c C-e b command even though I don't know how to keep
that darned buffer from opening with the html... oh well, C-x 0), etc.
- In closing... I think beginners should have some message tailored to them
to help them with whatever they are transitioning from or whatever led them
to consider org-mode in the first place. Some, like me, are blank slates
with respect to Emacs and need a way to:
--- Be informed of some extreme Emacs basics just to avoid sitting and
staring at the opening screen and not having a clue what to do next
--- Not feel like they have to be walking keyboard shortcut encyclopedias...
at first
--- Be encouraged to find a way to even just play in org-mode a little at a
time to get started. Get people outlining and exporting to something useful
in the first day and I think more will stick around to realize the full
depth of what org-mode can do.
John
>
> _______________________________________________
> Emacs-orgmode mailing list
> Please use `Reply All' to send replies to the list.
> Emacs-orgmode@gnu.org
> http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/emacs-orgmode
>
[-- Attachment #1.2: Type: text/html, Size: 6135 bytes --]
[-- Attachment #2: Type: text/plain, Size: 201 bytes --]
_______________________________________________
Emacs-orgmode mailing list
Please use `Reply All' to send replies to the list.
Emacs-orgmode@gnu.org
http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/emacs-orgmode
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 9+ messages in thread
* Re: AI for orgmode
2010-03-19 22:55 ` John Hendy
@ 2010-03-20 0:48 ` Darlan Cavalcante Moreira
2010-03-20 1:52 ` Neil Hepburn
0 siblings, 1 reply; 9+ messages in thread
From: Darlan Cavalcante Moreira @ 2010-03-20 0:48 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: John Hendy; +Cc: emacs-orgmode, Leo, Carsten Dominik
I strongly agree with "just start simple". The manual is very good, but it
is better when you are looking for something specific. One of the best
things in org is that it is very flexible and you can use it in the way you
want, but in the beginning I didn't know "how I should use it" or "how I
want to use it". One thing that helped me was seeing the setup of power
users. This allowed me to quickly see what org could do and how it could be
done. Only after that I found "the best way to use org-mode" for me.
But the problem is that I could only find "power users setups". Maybe some
tutorial that builds a setup like that from scratch would be good. The
tutorial could be broken in parts where each part adds something to the
previous one and the user could use the setup from parts he already viewed
for some time to really "feel org-mode". Reading each part would be more
rewarding then reading a lot of information and only after that trying
org-mode.
Darlan
2010/3/19 John Hendy <jw.hendy@gmail.com>:
>
>
> On Fri, Mar 19, 2010 at 12:08 PM, Carsten Dominik
> <carsten.dominik@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> On Mar 18, 2010, at 9:32 PM, Leo wrote:
>>
>>> Hello,
>
> <beginning removed>
>
>>>
>>> BTW, recently while talking with some chap on #lisp irc channel who was
>>> seeking a GTD tool (folks there usually are already literate with Emacs
>>> since SLIME is the best tool for developing common lisp applications).
>>> He told me that he had tried to adopt org mode but unfortunately he
>>> could not get it to where he wanted it to be in an afternoon, so he had
>>> to abandon it. And he is experienced in lisp programming since that is
>>> his job.
>>>
>>> Thinking about my own experience, I didn't feel the pain since I
>>> gradually changing my org mode configuration over a few years. but I
>>> could understand the frustration.
>>
>> I would be interested in a discussion on how to decrease the startup
>> pain in a clever way.
>>
>> - Carsten
>>
>
> I just started using org-mode and emacs this week. I looked around a couple
> of months ago for a task manager and found a lot of posts on planner and
> org-mode but was turned off by the apparently steep learning curve. I think
> the word 'piecemeal' seems to come up a lot in people's learning tendencies.
> For example, when looking a Sacha Chua's blogs about org-mode, seeing her
> code to do what I thought was 'one simple thing' was completely revolting...
> not because I didn't think it was awesome or desirable, but because it made
> me feel like I would never understand or learn to ever be where her and
> other users have gotten themselves after months and years of use.
>
> 'Nuff blabber. Some practical ideas to add to the discussion:
>
> - Perhaps include an extremely brief topic about Emacs in the org-mode
> material. I realize one can get over to Emacs and read that, too, but as
> someone who picked up Emacs specifically for org-mode, it would have helped
> to just know some basics:
> --- As done already, it's great to have the info about 'get emacs, then
> install org-mode and activate it like this'. I've used Linux for about 4
> years and am familiar enough to get Emacs... just not run it!
> --- Open your first org-mode file with C-x C-f; now type in a location and
> file_name.org to create an org-mode file
> --- To save your file while you work, press C-x C-s
>
> - Maybe make some kind of uber-beginner documentation? The manual is plainly
> awesome... but it could have a section solely for brand-spanking new
> beginners who might get overwhelmed at trying to remember all the C-this
> M-that stuff... What about making the commands into hierarchical levels.
> Example:
> --- Take the 2.1 Outlines section
> --- What about simply leaving it as covering the headlines,
> unordered/ordered lists, and some basic structure editing at the top of the
> section? Cover asterisks, M-arrows to move headlines and [pro/de]mote, etc.
> --- Include all the advanced commands in a section afterward?
>
> - Or, as an alternative idea, just have a set of beginner documentation.
> Intentionally make it limited. Specify that arrows work fine (for now)
> instead of overwhelming them with C-c C-n and the rest?
>
> - Perhaps have a suggestion for beginner migration to org-mode? I would have
> loved to know:
> --- I eventually figured out myself that 1) I thought Emacs in general and
> org-mode in specific were worthwhile investments of my time and 2) that
> trying to learn Emacs and org-mode were gong to be really hard and I was not
> sure that it was a feasible given my work and family life.
> --- What I ended up thinking to myself was simply that I would just start
> simple: just take daily work notes in outline format with org-mode. Postpone
> learning all the todo functionality, the tasks and agenda views, exporting
> (other than the quick C-c C-e b command even though I don't know how to keep
> that darned buffer from opening with the html... oh well, C-x 0), etc.
>
> - In closing... I think beginners should have some message tailored to them
> to help them with whatever they are transitioning from or whatever led them
> to consider org-mode in the first place. Some, like me, are blank slates
> with respect to Emacs and need a way to:
> --- Be informed of some extreme Emacs basics just to avoid sitting and
> staring at the opening screen and not having a clue what to do next
> --- Not feel like they have to be walking keyboard shortcut encyclopedias...
> at first
> --- Be encouraged to find a way to even just play in org-mode a little at a
> time to get started. Get people outlining and exporting to something useful
> in the first day and I think more will stick around to realize the full
> depth of what org-mode can do.
>
>
> John
>
>
>
>
>
>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Emacs-orgmode mailing list
>> Please use `Reply All' to send replies to the list.
>> Emacs-orgmode@gnu.org
>> http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/emacs-orgmode
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Emacs-orgmode mailing list
> Please use `Reply All' to send replies to the list.
> Emacs-orgmode@gnu.org
> http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/emacs-orgmode
>
>
--
Darlan Cavalcante Moreira
"SDR4all, a new way of teaching telecommunications: http://www.sdr4all.com/
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 9+ messages in thread
* Re: AI for orgmode
2010-03-20 0:48 ` Darlan Cavalcante Moreira
@ 2010-03-20 1:52 ` Neil Hepburn
2010-03-20 2:23 ` Thomas S. Dye
0 siblings, 1 reply; 9+ messages in thread
From: Neil Hepburn @ 2010-03-20 1:52 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Darlan Cavalcante Moreira; +Cc: emacs-orgmode, Leo, Carsten Dominik
Hi All
I've just caught wind of this thread but I thought I would share my own very recent experiences as a newbie in org-mode and my experiences may help shed some light on things.
Anyhow, I am quite new to org-mode (as in the last two or three weeks). I'm also sort of new to emacs. I've used it occasionally over the years but only recently started using it extensively because of ESS and AucTeX. So, I am by no means an emacs expert --- I know how to start it and use some of its tools but configuring it is not something I can claim to know anything about.
I stumbled across org-mode when I did a google search for GTD and came across a couple of blogs and sites that talked about it. Each of them provided snippets of their .emacs files and so that's where I started. On several occasions I was stumped by a configuration issue and tried looking in the on-line manual but didn't really get anywhere. It wasn't until I tried using mobileorg that I started to develop a better understanding of things. I was having trouble getting mobileorg to work and Richard Moreland provided several key bits of information and it on that basis that I started to piece things together.
In reflecting on that experience and looking back at the manual, the manual makes perfect sense -- for someone more knowledgeable about emacs and lisp in general. However, to an emacs novice it seems to assume a greater level of background knowledge than what may be reasonable.
However, that said, trying to "dumb-down" the manual so that emacs novices are better served would likely do a disservice to experienced emacs users -- they would have to wade through pages of minutia and really basic stuff to get to what's important for them.
I think that Darlan's idea of tutorials that start with the really basic stuff and then build up to the good stuff has much merit. In some respects, what may be needed is a parallel documentation stream: The current documentation as it is for those more experienced and another one for newbies (Org-Mode for newbies sort of thing.)
Anyhow, just my two-cents worth.
-Neil
PS. Now that I have gotten the hang of org-mode to be reasonably functional in it, I just cannot see myself going back to OmniFocus and iCal -- both good programs in their own right but Org-mode can just do it all so much better.
On 2010-03-19, at 6:48 PM, Darlan Cavalcante Moreira wrote:
> I strongly agree with "just start simple". The manual is very good, but it
> is better when you are looking for something specific. One of the best
> things in org is that it is very flexible and you can use it in the way you
> want, but in the beginning I didn't know "how I should use it" or "how I
> want to use it". One thing that helped me was seeing the setup of power
> users. This allowed me to quickly see what org could do and how it could be
> done. Only after that I found "the best way to use org-mode" for me.
>
> But the problem is that I could only find "power users setups". Maybe some
> tutorial that builds a setup like that from scratch would be good. The
> tutorial could be broken in parts where each part adds something to the
> previous one and the user could use the setup from parts he already viewed
> for some time to really "feel org-mode". Reading each part would be more
> rewarding then reading a lot of information and only after that trying
> org-mode.
>
> Darlan
>
>
> 2010/3/19 John Hendy <jw.hendy@gmail.com>:
>>
>>
>> On Fri, Mar 19, 2010 at 12:08 PM, Carsten Dominik
>> <carsten.dominik@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> On Mar 18, 2010, at 9:32 PM, Leo wrote:
>>>
>>>> Hello,
>>
>> <beginning removed>
>>
>>>>
>>>> BTW, recently while talking with some chap on #lisp irc channel who was
>>>> seeking a GTD tool (folks there usually are already literate with Emacs
>>>> since SLIME is the best tool for developing common lisp applications).
>>>> He told me that he had tried to adopt org mode but unfortunately he
>>>> could not get it to where he wanted it to be in an afternoon, so he had
>>>> to abandon it. And he is experienced in lisp programming since that is
>>>> his job.
>>>>
>>>> Thinking about my own experience, I didn't feel the pain since I
>>>> gradually changing my org mode configuration over a few years. but I
>>>> could understand the frustration.
>>>
>>> I would be interested in a discussion on how to decrease the startup
>>> pain in a clever way.
>>>
>>> - Carsten
>>>
>>
>> I just started using org-mode and emacs this week. I looked around a couple
>> of months ago for a task manager and found a lot of posts on planner and
>> org-mode but was turned off by the apparently steep learning curve. I think
>> the word 'piecemeal' seems to come up a lot in people's learning tendencies.
>> For example, when looking a Sacha Chua's blogs about org-mode, seeing her
>> code to do what I thought was 'one simple thing' was completely revolting...
>> not because I didn't think it was awesome or desirable, but because it made
>> me feel like I would never understand or learn to ever be where her and
>> other users have gotten themselves after months and years of use.
>>
>> 'Nuff blabber. Some practical ideas to add to the discussion:
>>
>> - Perhaps include an extremely brief topic about Emacs in the org-mode
>> material. I realize one can get over to Emacs and read that, too, but as
>> someone who picked up Emacs specifically for org-mode, it would have helped
>> to just know some basics:
>> --- As done already, it's great to have the info about 'get emacs, then
>> install org-mode and activate it like this'. I've used Linux for about 4
>> years and am familiar enough to get Emacs... just not run it!
>> --- Open your first org-mode file with C-x C-f; now type in a location and
>> file_name.org to create an org-mode file
>> --- To save your file while you work, press C-x C-s
>>
>> - Maybe make some kind of uber-beginner documentation? The manual is plainly
>> awesome... but it could have a section solely for brand-spanking new
>> beginners who might get overwhelmed at trying to remember all the C-this
>> M-that stuff... What about making the commands into hierarchical levels.
>> Example:
>> --- Take the 2.1 Outlines section
>> --- What about simply leaving it as covering the headlines,
>> unordered/ordered lists, and some basic structure editing at the top of the
>> section? Cover asterisks, M-arrows to move headlines and [pro/de]mote, etc.
>> --- Include all the advanced commands in a section afterward?
>>
>> - Or, as an alternative idea, just have a set of beginner documentation.
>> Intentionally make it limited. Specify that arrows work fine (for now)
>> instead of overwhelming them with C-c C-n and the rest?
>>
>> - Perhaps have a suggestion for beginner migration to org-mode? I would have
>> loved to know:
>> --- I eventually figured out myself that 1) I thought Emacs in general and
>> org-mode in specific were worthwhile investments of my time and 2) that
>> trying to learn Emacs and org-mode were gong to be really hard and I was not
>> sure that it was a feasible given my work and family life.
>> --- What I ended up thinking to myself was simply that I would just start
>> simple: just take daily work notes in outline format with org-mode. Postpone
>> learning all the todo functionality, the tasks and agenda views, exporting
>> (other than the quick C-c C-e b command even though I don't know how to keep
>> that darned buffer from opening with the html... oh well, C-x 0), etc.
>>
>> - In closing... I think beginners should have some message tailored to them
>> to help them with whatever they are transitioning from or whatever led them
>> to consider org-mode in the first place. Some, like me, are blank slates
>> with respect to Emacs and need a way to:
>> --- Be informed of some extreme Emacs basics just to avoid sitting and
>> staring at the opening screen and not having a clue what to do next
>> --- Not feel like they have to be walking keyboard shortcut encyclopedias...
>> at first
>> --- Be encouraged to find a way to even just play in org-mode a little at a
>> time to get started. Get people outlining and exporting to something useful
>> in the first day and I think more will stick around to realize the full
>> depth of what org-mode can do.
>>
>>
>> John
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Emacs-orgmode mailing list
>>> Please use `Reply All' to send replies to the list.
>>> Emacs-orgmode@gnu.org
>>> http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/emacs-orgmode
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Emacs-orgmode mailing list
>> Please use `Reply All' to send replies to the list.
>> Emacs-orgmode@gnu.org
>> http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/emacs-orgmode
>>
>>
>
>
>
> --
> Darlan Cavalcante Moreira
>
> "SDR4all, a new way of teaching telecommunications: http://www.sdr4all.com/
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Emacs-orgmode mailing list
> Please use `Reply All' to send replies to the list.
> Emacs-orgmode@gnu.org
> http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/emacs-orgmode
>
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 9+ messages in thread
* Re: AI for orgmode
2010-03-20 1:52 ` Neil Hepburn
@ 2010-03-20 2:23 ` Thomas S. Dye
0 siblings, 0 replies; 9+ messages in thread
From: Thomas S. Dye @ 2010-03-20 2:23 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Neil Hepburn; +Cc: emacs-orgmode, Leo, Carsten Dominik
Aloha all,
The current documentation is terrific and it should grow and develop
as it has. The idea to augment it with "org-mode lite" is a good one,
but will be a lot of work.
Following on the good ideas of others in the thread, would it be
feasible to develop packets for specific Org-mode uses? 1)
necessary .emacs code, 2) example Org-mode file, 3) tutorial document
on Worg, and 4) screencast.
The newbie could cut and paste 1) to .emacs and re-start, load 2), and
either read 3) or watch 4) as she followed along and edited 2).
My own experience has involved a moderate amount of time with 1) (with
immeasurable help from Eric Schulte's emacs starter kit), and huge
amounts of time experimenting with Org-mode file structures. I still
don't have the GTD stuff down to my satisfaction but think that if I'd
spent an hour or two looking over Bernt Hansen's shoulder as he worked
that I would have it nailed.
The basic idea is to get the newbie to a predetermined goal, *then*
let her fiddle around with all the neat stuff in the manual, wiki,
worg, blogs, list archive, etc.
All the best and TGIF,
Tom
On Mar 19, 2010, at 3:52 PM, Neil Hepburn wrote:
> Hi All
>
> I've just caught wind of this thread but I thought I would share my
> own very recent experiences as a newbie in org-mode and my
> experiences may help shed some light on things.
>
> Anyhow, I am quite new to org-mode (as in the last two or three
> weeks). I'm also sort of new to emacs. I've used it occasionally
> over the years but only recently started using it extensively
> because of ESS and AucTeX. So, I am by no means an emacs expert ---
> I know how to start it and use some of its tools but configuring it
> is not something I can claim to know anything about.
>
> I stumbled across org-mode when I did a google search for GTD and
> came across a couple of blogs and sites that talked about it. Each
> of them provided snippets of their .emacs files and so that's where
> I started. On several occasions I was stumped by a configuration
> issue and tried looking in the on-line manual but didn't really get
> anywhere. It wasn't until I tried using mobileorg that I started to
> develop a better understanding of things. I was having trouble
> getting mobileorg to work and Richard Moreland provided several key
> bits of information and it on that basis that I started to piece
> things together.
>
> In reflecting on that experience and looking back at the manual, the
> manual makes perfect sense -- for someone more knowledgeable about
> emacs and lisp in general. However, to an emacs novice it seems to
> assume a greater level of background knowledge than what may be
> reasonable.
>
> However, that said, trying to "dumb-down" the manual so that emacs
> novices are better served would likely do a disservice to
> experienced emacs users -- they would have to wade through pages of
> minutia and really basic stuff to get to what's important for them.
>
> I think that Darlan's idea of tutorials that start with the really
> basic stuff and then build up to the good stuff has much merit. In
> some respects, what may be needed is a parallel documentation
> stream: The current documentation as it is for those more
> experienced and another one for newbies (Org-Mode for newbies sort
> of thing.)
>
> Anyhow, just my two-cents worth.
>
> -Neil
>
> PS. Now that I have gotten the hang of org-mode to be reasonably
> functional in it, I just cannot see myself going back to OmniFocus
> and iCal -- both good programs in their own right but Org-mode can
> just do it all so much better.
>
> On 2010-03-19, at 6:48 PM, Darlan Cavalcante Moreira wrote:
>
>> I strongly agree with "just start simple". The manual is very good,
>> but it
>> is better when you are looking for something specific. One of the
>> best
>> things in org is that it is very flexible and you can use it in the
>> way you
>> want, but in the beginning I didn't know "how I should use it" or
>> "how I
>> want to use it". One thing that helped me was seeing the setup of
>> power
>> users. This allowed me to quickly see what org could do and how it
>> could be
>> done. Only after that I found "the best way to use org-mode" for me.
>>
>> But the problem is that I could only find "power users setups".
>> Maybe some
>> tutorial that builds a setup like that from scratch would be good.
>> The
>> tutorial could be broken in parts where each part adds something to
>> the
>> previous one and the user could use the setup from parts he already
>> viewed
>> for some time to really "feel org-mode". Reading each part would be
>> more
>> rewarding then reading a lot of information and only after that
>> trying
>> org-mode.
>>
>> Darlan
>>
>>
>> 2010/3/19 John Hendy <jw.hendy@gmail.com>:
>>>
>>>
>>> On Fri, Mar 19, 2010 at 12:08 PM, Carsten Dominik
>>> <carsten.dominik@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> On Mar 18, 2010, at 9:32 PM, Leo wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Hello,
>>>
>>> <beginning removed>
>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> BTW, recently while talking with some chap on #lisp irc channel
>>>>> who was
>>>>> seeking a GTD tool (folks there usually are already literate
>>>>> with Emacs
>>>>> since SLIME is the best tool for developing common lisp
>>>>> applications).
>>>>> He told me that he had tried to adopt org mode but unfortunately
>>>>> he
>>>>> could not get it to where he wanted it to be in an afternoon, so
>>>>> he had
>>>>> to abandon it. And he is experienced in lisp programming since
>>>>> that is
>>>>> his job.
>>>>>
>>>>> Thinking about my own experience, I didn't feel the pain since I
>>>>> gradually changing my org mode configuration over a few years.
>>>>> but I
>>>>> could understand the frustration.
>>>>
>>>> I would be interested in a discussion on how to decrease the
>>>> startup
>>>> pain in a clever way.
>>>>
>>>> - Carsten
>>>>
>>>
>>> I just started using org-mode and emacs this week. I looked around
>>> a couple
>>> of months ago for a task manager and found a lot of posts on
>>> planner and
>>> org-mode but was turned off by the apparently steep learning
>>> curve. I think
>>> the word 'piecemeal' seems to come up a lot in people's learning
>>> tendencies.
>>> For example, when looking a Sacha Chua's blogs about org-mode,
>>> seeing her
>>> code to do what I thought was 'one simple thing' was completely
>>> revolting...
>>> not because I didn't think it was awesome or desirable, but
>>> because it made
>>> me feel like I would never understand or learn to ever be where
>>> her and
>>> other users have gotten themselves after months and years of use.
>>>
>>> 'Nuff blabber. Some practical ideas to add to the discussion:
>>>
>>> - Perhaps include an extremely brief topic about Emacs in the org-
>>> mode
>>> material. I realize one can get over to Emacs and read that, too,
>>> but as
>>> someone who picked up Emacs specifically for org-mode, it would
>>> have helped
>>> to just know some basics:
>>> --- As done already, it's great to have the info about 'get emacs,
>>> then
>>> install org-mode and activate it like this'. I've used Linux for
>>> about 4
>>> years and am familiar enough to get Emacs... just not run it!
>>> --- Open your first org-mode file with C-x C-f; now type in a
>>> location and
>>> file_name.org to create an org-mode file
>>> --- To save your file while you work, press C-x C-s
>>>
>>> - Maybe make some kind of uber-beginner documentation? The manual
>>> is plainly
>>> awesome... but it could have a section solely for brand-spanking new
>>> beginners who might get overwhelmed at trying to remember all the
>>> C-this
>>> M-that stuff... What about making the commands into hierarchical
>>> levels.
>>> Example:
>>> --- Take the 2.1 Outlines section
>>> --- What about simply leaving it as covering the headlines,
>>> unordered/ordered lists, and some basic structure editing at the
>>> top of the
>>> section? Cover asterisks, M-arrows to move headlines and [pro/
>>> de]mote, etc.
>>> --- Include all the advanced commands in a section afterward?
>>>
>>> - Or, as an alternative idea, just have a set of beginner
>>> documentation.
>>> Intentionally make it limited. Specify that arrows work fine (for
>>> now)
>>> instead of overwhelming them with C-c C-n and the rest?
>>>
>>> - Perhaps have a suggestion for beginner migration to org-mode? I
>>> would have
>>> loved to know:
>>> --- I eventually figured out myself that 1) I thought Emacs in
>>> general and
>>> org-mode in specific were worthwhile investments of my time and 2)
>>> that
>>> trying to learn Emacs and org-mode were gong to be really hard and
>>> I was not
>>> sure that it was a feasible given my work and family life.
>>> --- What I ended up thinking to myself was simply that I would
>>> just start
>>> simple: just take daily work notes in outline format with org-
>>> mode. Postpone
>>> learning all the todo functionality, the tasks and agenda views,
>>> exporting
>>> (other than the quick C-c C-e b command even though I don't know
>>> how to keep
>>> that darned buffer from opening with the html... oh well, C-x 0),
>>> etc.
>>>
>>> - In closing... I think beginners should have some message
>>> tailored to them
>>> to help them with whatever they are transitioning from or whatever
>>> led them
>>> to consider org-mode in the first place. Some, like me, are blank
>>> slates
>>> with respect to Emacs and need a way to:
>>> --- Be informed of some extreme Emacs basics just to avoid sitting
>>> and
>>> staring at the opening screen and not having a clue what to do next
>>> --- Not feel like they have to be walking keyboard shortcut
>>> encyclopedias...
>>> at first
>>> --- Be encouraged to find a way to even just play in org-mode a
>>> little at a
>>> time to get started. Get people outlining and exporting to
>>> something useful
>>> in the first day and I think more will stick around to realize the
>>> full
>>> depth of what org-mode can do.
>>>
>>>
>>> John
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Emacs-orgmode mailing list
>>>> Please use `Reply All' to send replies to the list.
>>>> Emacs-orgmode@gnu.org
>>>> http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/emacs-orgmode
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Emacs-orgmode mailing list
>>> Please use `Reply All' to send replies to the list.
>>> Emacs-orgmode@gnu.org
>>> http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/emacs-orgmode
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Darlan Cavalcante Moreira
>>
>> "SDR4all, a new way of teaching telecommunications: http://www.sdr4all.com/
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Emacs-orgmode mailing list
>> Please use `Reply All' to send replies to the list.
>> Emacs-orgmode@gnu.org
>> http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/emacs-orgmode
>>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Emacs-orgmode mailing list
> Please use `Reply All' to send replies to the list.
> Emacs-orgmode@gnu.org
> http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/emacs-orgmode
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 9+ messages in thread
* Re: AI for orgmode
2010-03-19 17:08 ` Carsten Dominik
2010-03-19 22:55 ` John Hendy
@ 2010-03-20 10:16 ` Leo
2010-03-20 11:01 ` Scot Becker
2010-03-20 22:50 ` Łukasz Stelmach
2 siblings, 1 reply; 9+ messages in thread
From: Leo @ 2010-03-20 10:16 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: emacs-orgmode
On 2010-03-19 17:08 +0000, Carsten Dominik wrote:
> I would be interested in a discussion on how to decrease the startup
> pain in a clever way.
>
> - Carsten
The 88th slide says:
We implemented a rule-based expert system that provides the
functionality of systems like CLIPS, LISA or OPS5.
Anybody on the list know how expert system can help orgmode?
Leo
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 9+ messages in thread
* Re: Re: AI for orgmode
2010-03-20 10:16 ` Leo
@ 2010-03-20 11:01 ` Scot Becker
0 siblings, 0 replies; 9+ messages in thread
From: Scot Becker @ 2010-03-20 11:01 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Leo; +Cc: emacs-orgmode
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I quite like Thomas' idea of packets for specific org mode uses. As a
starting list consdier: writing for the web, writing for print, basic task
management, "full" GTD, time tracking, code/LaTeX tangling. The list could
obviously be edited down or up in length. Each of these packets might
include Thomas' list (relevant .emacs code, sample org document, tutorial
document and a screencast.)
It's true that org is in some ways very simple (remember the 'taskpaper'
discussion of a year ago?), for basic outlining. But it's also true that the
minimal code-and-knowhow needed to do some of the specific tasks which org
has proven so good at it can be a fair hurdle for a beginner to put
together. In this respect the raw flexibility of org-mode (exactly like
Emacs itself) has its down side. We might be able to lower the
getting-started hurdle if we were able to tell people; "You want to do
GTD-like task management? Look <here> and follw the recipe. You want to
outline your writing? Look <here>. Heaven knows you can always tweak it
later." I have often thought that there would be ways to get people up and
running even without the venerable Emacs tutorial.
Scot
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_______________________________________________
Emacs-orgmode mailing list
Please use `Reply All' to send replies to the list.
Emacs-orgmode@gnu.org
http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/emacs-orgmode
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 9+ messages in thread
* Re: AI for orgmode
2010-03-19 17:08 ` Carsten Dominik
2010-03-19 22:55 ` John Hendy
2010-03-20 10:16 ` Leo
@ 2010-03-20 22:50 ` Łukasz Stelmach
2 siblings, 0 replies; 9+ messages in thread
From: Łukasz Stelmach @ 2010-03-20 22:50 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: emacs-orgmode
Carsten Dominik <carsten.dominik@gmail.com> writes:
> On Mar 18, 2010, at 9:32 PM, Leo wrote:
>
>> Thinking about my own experience, I didn't feel the pain since I
>> gradually changing my org mode configuration over a few years. but I
>> could understand the frustration.
>
> I would be interested in a discussion on how to decrease the startup
> pain in a clever way.
I've always been a kind of a defeatist so take my words with a grain of
salt but...
People who use or are willing to use Emacs are by no means ordinary
users. The have their really own preferences and habits. They (like me)
even have their own visions of GTD, let alone other workflows. If they
choose org-mode it is because it is super-hyper-mega-customisable. With
great power comes great[1]... Software achieve gradual learning curve
(thus becoming available to ordinary users) by applying sane default
settings but there is no such thing for users I've just described. They
(with all due respect for everyone reading this) all are kind of insane
to use text editor as a PIM, aren't they (we)? Giving those people "sane
defaults" may only make some (most?) of them give up on org-mode as it
might suggest less flexibility than there actually is.
On the other hand I am going to try to convince some of my colleagues to
use it and they don't seem to be so weird as I am. I will probably take
my configuration weed out some really personal stuff and give them as
the "sane default".
These are of course only my 2 cents (Euro ones ;)
[1] http://xkcd.com/643/
--
Miłego dnia,
Łukasz Stelmach
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 9+ messages in thread
end of thread, other threads:[~2010-03-20 22:51 UTC | newest]
Thread overview: 9+ messages (download: mbox.gz / follow: Atom feed)
-- links below jump to the message on this page --
2010-03-18 20:32 AI for orgmode Leo
2010-03-19 17:08 ` Carsten Dominik
2010-03-19 22:55 ` John Hendy
2010-03-20 0:48 ` Darlan Cavalcante Moreira
2010-03-20 1:52 ` Neil Hepburn
2010-03-20 2:23 ` Thomas S. Dye
2010-03-20 10:16 ` Leo
2010-03-20 11:01 ` Scot Becker
2010-03-20 22:50 ` Łukasz Stelmach
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