Re: AI for orgmode

From: John Hendy <jw.hendy@gmail.com>
To: Carsten Dominik <carsten.dominik@gmail.com>
Cc: emacs-orgmode@gnu.org, Leo <sdl.web@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: AI for orgmode
Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2010 17:55:59 -0500	[thread overview]
Message-ID: <a037f7361003191555o36b84f4eoa87eff37b3558596@mail.gmail.com> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <D342361B-9418-4571-AB6C-690A33866E9E@gmail.com>

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On Fri, Mar 19, 2010 at 12:08 PM, Carsten Dominik <carsten.dominik@gmail.com
> wrote:

>
> On Mar 18, 2010, at 9:32 PM, Leo wrote:
>
>  Hello,
>>
>
<beginning removed>

>
>> BTW, recently while talking with some chap on #lisp irc channel who was
>> seeking a GTD tool (folks there usually are already literate with Emacs
>> since SLIME is the best tool for developing common lisp applications).
>> He told me that he had tried to adopt org mode but unfortunately he
>> could not get it to where he wanted it to be in an afternoon, so he had
>> to abandon it. And he is experienced in lisp programming since that is
>> his job.
>>
>> Thinking about my own experience, I didn't feel the pain since I
>> gradually changing my org mode configuration over a few years. but I
>> could understand the frustration.
>>
>
> I would be interested in a discussion on how to decrease the startup
> pain in a clever way.
>
> - Carsten
>
>
I just started using org-mode and emacs this week. I looked around a couple
of months ago for a task manager and found a lot of posts on planner and
org-mode but was turned off by the apparently steep learning curve. I think
the word 'piecemeal' seems to come up a lot in people's learning tendencies.
For example, when looking a Sacha Chua's blogs about org-mode, seeing her
code to do what I thought was 'one simple thing' was completely revolting...
not because I didn't think it was awesome or desirable, but because it made
me feel like I would never understand or learn to ever be where her and
other users have gotten themselves after months and years of use.

'Nuff blabber. Some practical ideas to add to the discussion:

- Perhaps include an extremely brief topic about Emacs in the org-mode
material. I realize one can get over to Emacs and read that, too, but as
someone who picked up Emacs specifically *for* org-mode, it would have
helped to just know some basics:
--- As done already, it's great to have the info about 'get emacs, then
install org-mode and activate it like this'. I've used Linux for about 4
years and am familiar enough to get Emacs... just not run it!
--- Open your first org-mode file with C-x C-f; now type in a location and
file_name.org to create an org-mode file
--- To save your file while you work, press C-x C-s

- Maybe make some kind of uber-beginner documentation? The manual is plainly
awesome... *but* it *could* have a section solely for brand-spanking new
beginners who might get overwhelmed at trying to remember all the C-this
M-that stuff... What about making the commands into hierarchical levels.
Example:
--- Take the 2.1 Outlines section
--- What about simply leaving it as covering the headlines,
unordered/ordered lists, and some basic structure editing at the top of the
section? Cover asterisks, M-arrows to move headlines and [pro/de]mote, etc.
--- Include all the advanced commands in a section afterward?

- Or, as an alternative idea, just have a set of beginner documentation.
Intentionally make it limited. Specify that arrows work fine (for now)
instead of overwhelming them with C-c C-n and the rest?

- Perhaps have a suggestion for beginner migration to org-mode? I would have
loved to know:
--- I eventually figured out myself that 1) I thought Emacs in general and
org-mode in specific were worthwhile investments of my time and 2) that
trying to learn Emacs and org-mode were gong to be really hard and I was not
sure that it was a feasible given my work and family life.
--- What I ended up thinking to myself was simply that I would just start
simple: just take daily work notes in outline format with org-mode. Postpone
learning all the todo functionality, the tasks and agenda views, exporting
(other than the quick C-c C-e b command even though I don't know how to keep
that darned buffer from opening with the html... oh well, C-x 0), etc.

- In closing... I think beginners should have some message tailored to them
to help them with whatever they are transitioning from or whatever led them
to consider org-mode in the first place. Some, like me, are blank slates
with respect to Emacs and need a way to:
--- Be informed of some extreme Emacs basics just to avoid sitting and
staring at the opening screen and not having a clue what to do next
--- Not feel like they have to be walking keyboard shortcut encyclopedias...
at first
--- Be encouraged to find a way to even just play in org-mode a little at a
time to get started. Get people outlining and exporting to something useful
in the first day and I think more will stick around to realize the full
depth of what org-mode can do.

John

>
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