On Fri, Mar 19, 2010 at 12:08 PM, Carste= n Dominik <carsten.dominik@gmail.com> wrote:

On Mar 18, 2010, at 9:32 PM, Leo wrote:

Hello,

<beginning removed>
= =A0

BTW, recently while talking with some chap on #lisp irc channel who was
seeking a GTD tool (folks there usually are already literate with Emacs
since SLIME is the best tool for developing common lisp applications).
He told me that he had tried to adopt org mode but unfortunately he
could not get it to where he wanted it to be in an afternoon, so he had
to abandon it. And he is experienced in lisp programming since that is
his job.

Thinking about my own experience, I didn't feel the pain since I
gradually changing my org mode configuration over a few years. but I
could understand the frustration.

I would be interested in a discussion on how to decrease the startup
pain in a clever way.

- Carsten

I just started using org-mode and emacs this week= . I looked around a couple of months ago for a task manager and found a lot= of posts on planner and org-mode but was turned off by the apparently stee= p learning curve. I think the word 'piecemeal' seems to come up a l= ot in people's learning tendencies. For example, when looking a Sacha C= hua's blogs about org-mode, seeing her code to do what I thought was &#= 39;one simple thing' was completely revolting... not because I didn'= ;t think it was awesome or desirable, but because it made me feel like I wo= uld never understand or learn to ever be where her and other users have got= ten themselves after months and years of use.

'Nuff blabber. Some practical ideas to add to the discussion:
- Perhaps include an extremely brief topic about Emacs in the org-mode ma= terial. I realize one can get over to Emacs and read that, too, but as some= one who picked up Emacs specifically for org-mode, it would have hel= ped to just know some basics:
--- As done already, it's great to have the info about 'get emacs, = then install org-mode and activate it like this'. I've used Linux f= or about 4 years and am familiar enough to get Emacs... just not run it! --- Open your first org-mode file with C-x C-f; now type in a location and = file_name.org to create an org-mode fi= le
--- To save your file while you work, press C-x C-s

- Maybe ma= ke some kind of uber-beginner documentation? The manual is plainly awesome.= .. but it could have a section solely for brand-spanking new = beginners who might get overwhelmed at trying to remember all the C-this M-= that stuff... What about making the commands into hierarchical levels. Exam= ple:
--- Take the 2.1 Outlines section
--- What about simply leaving it as co= vering the headlines, unordered/ordered lists, and some basic structure edi= ting at the top of the section? Cover asterisks, M-arrows to move headlines= and [pro/de]mote, etc.
--- Include all the advanced commands in a section afterward?

- Or, = as an alternative idea, just have a set of beginner documentation. Intentio= nally make it limited. Specify that arrows work fine (for now) instead of o= verwhelming them with C-c C-n and the rest?

- Perhaps have a suggestion for beginner migration to org-mode? I would= have loved to know:
--- I eventually figured out myself that 1) I thoug= ht Emacs in general and org-mode in specific were worthwhile investments of= my time and 2) that trying to learn Emacs and org-mode were gong to be rea= lly hard and I was not sure that it was a feasible given my work and family= life.
--- What I ended up thinking to myself was simply that I would just start s= imple: just take daily work notes in outline format with org-mode. Postpone= learning all the todo functionality, the tasks and agenda views, exporting= (other than the quick C-c C-e b command even though I don't know how t= o keep that darned buffer from opening with the html... oh well, C-x 0), et= c.

- In closing... I think beginners should have some message tailored to = them to help them with whatever they are transitioning from or whatever led= them to consider org-mode in the first place. Some, like me, are blank sla= tes with respect to Emacs and need a way to:
--- Be informed of some extreme Emacs basics just to avoid sitting and star= ing at the opening screen and not having a clue what to do next
--- Not = feel like they have to be walking keyboard shortcut encyclopedias... at fir= st
--- Be encouraged to find a way to even just play in org-mode a little at a= time to get started. Get people outlining and exporting to something usefu= l in the first day and I think more will stick around to realize the full d= epth of what org-mode can do.

John

=A0

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