Re: AI for orgmode

From: "Thomas S. Dye" <tsd@tsdye.com>
To: Neil Hepburn <nhepburn@ualberta.ca>
Cc: emacs-orgmode@gnu.org, Leo <sdl.web@gmail.com>,
	Carsten Dominik <carsten.dominik@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: AI for orgmode
Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2010 16:23:46 -1000	[thread overview]
Message-ID: <D6376C63-B502-4E7E-98BA-B87900D03168@tsdye.com> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <234C6E0B-055E-461F-90C8-9B6B1F25C36D@ualberta.ca>

Aloha all,

The current documentation is terrific and it should grow and develop  
as it has.  The idea to augment it with "org-mode lite" is a good one,  
but will be a lot of work.

Following on the good ideas of others in the thread, would it be  
feasible to develop packets for specific Org-mode uses?  1)  
necessary .emacs code, 2) example Org-mode file, 3) tutorial document  
on Worg, and 4) screencast.

The newbie could cut and paste 1) to .emacs and re-start, load 2), and  
either read 3) or watch 4) as she followed along and edited 2).

My own experience has involved a moderate amount of time with 1) (with  
immeasurable help from Eric Schulte's emacs starter kit), and huge  
amounts of time experimenting with Org-mode file structures.  I still  
don't have the GTD stuff down to my satisfaction but think that if I'd  
spent an hour or two looking over Bernt Hansen's shoulder as he worked  
that I would have it nailed.

The basic idea is to get the newbie to a predetermined goal, *then*  
let her fiddle around with all the neat stuff in the manual, wiki,  
worg, blogs, list archive, etc.

All the best and TGIF,
Tom

On Mar 19, 2010, at 3:52 PM, Neil Hepburn wrote:

> Hi All
>
> I've just caught wind of this thread but I thought I would share my  
> own very recent experiences as a newbie in org-mode and my  
> experiences may help shed some light on things.
>
> Anyhow, I am quite new to org-mode (as in the last two or three  
> weeks). I'm also sort of new to emacs. I've used it occasionally  
> over the years but only recently started using it extensively  
> because of ESS and AucTeX. So, I am by no means an emacs expert ---  
> I know how to start it and use some of its tools but configuring it  
> is not something I can claim to know anything about.
>
> I stumbled across org-mode when I did a google search for GTD and  
> came across a couple of blogs and sites that talked about it. Each  
> of them provided snippets of their .emacs files and so that's where  
> I started. On several occasions I was stumped by a configuration  
> issue and tried looking in the on-line manual but didn't really get  
> anywhere. It wasn't until I tried using mobileorg that I started to  
> develop a better understanding of things. I was having trouble  
> getting mobileorg to work and Richard Moreland provided several key  
> bits of information and it on that basis that I started to piece  
> things together.
>
> In reflecting on that experience and looking back at the manual, the  
> manual makes perfect sense -- for someone more knowledgeable about  
> emacs and lisp in general.  However, to an emacs novice it seems to  
> assume a greater level of background knowledge than what may be  
> reasonable.
>
> However, that said, trying to "dumb-down" the manual so that emacs  
> novices are better served would likely do a disservice to  
> experienced emacs users -- they would have to wade through pages of  
> minutia and really basic stuff to get to what's important for them.
>
> I think that Darlan's idea of tutorials that start with the really  
> basic stuff and then build up to the good stuff has much merit.  In  
> some respects, what may be needed is a parallel documentation  
> stream: The current documentation as it is for those more  
> experienced and another one for newbies (Org-Mode for newbies sort  
> of thing.)
>
> Anyhow, just my two-cents worth.
>
> -Neil
>
> PS. Now that I have gotten the hang of org-mode to be reasonably  
> functional in it, I just cannot see myself going back to OmniFocus  
> and iCal -- both good programs in their own right but Org-mode can  
> just do it all so much better.
>
> On 2010-03-19, at 6:48 PM, Darlan Cavalcante Moreira wrote:
>
>> I strongly agree with "just start simple". The manual is very good,  
>> but it
>> is better when you are looking for something specific. One of the  
>> best
>> things in org is that it is very flexible and you can use it in the  
>> way you
>> want, but in the beginning I didn't know "how I should use it" or  
>> "how I
>> want to use it". One thing that helped me was seeing the setup of  
>> power
>> users. This allowed me to quickly see what org could do and how it  
>> could be
>> done. Only after that I found "the best way to use org-mode" for me.
>>
>> But the problem is that I could only find "power users setups".  
>> Maybe some
>> tutorial that builds a setup like that from scratch would be good.  
>> The
>> tutorial could be broken in parts where each part adds something to  
>> the
>> previous one and the user could use the setup from parts he already  
>> viewed
>> for some time to really "feel org-mode". Reading each part would be  
>> more
>> rewarding then reading a lot of information and only after that  
>> trying
>> org-mode.
>>
>> Darlan
>>
>>
>> 2010/3/19 John Hendy <jw.hendy@gmail.com>:
>>>
>>>
>>> On Fri, Mar 19, 2010 at 12:08 PM, Carsten Dominik
>>> <carsten.dominik@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> On Mar 18, 2010, at 9:32 PM, Leo wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Hello,
>>>
>>> <beginning removed>
>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> BTW, recently while talking with some chap on #lisp irc channel  
>>>>> who was
>>>>> seeking a GTD tool (folks there usually are already literate  
>>>>> with Emacs
>>>>> since SLIME is the best tool for developing common lisp  
>>>>> applications).
>>>>> He told me that he had tried to adopt org mode but unfortunately  
>>>>> he
>>>>> could not get it to where he wanted it to be in an afternoon, so  
>>>>> he had
>>>>> to abandon it. And he is experienced in lisp programming since  
>>>>> that is
>>>>> his job.
>>>>>
>>>>> Thinking about my own experience, I didn't feel the pain since I
>>>>> gradually changing my org mode configuration over a few years.  
>>>>> but I
>>>>> could understand the frustration.
>>>>
>>>> I would be interested in a discussion on how to decrease the  
>>>> startup
>>>> pain in a clever way.
>>>>
>>>> - Carsten
>>>>
>>>
>>> I just started using org-mode and emacs this week. I looked around  
>>> a couple
>>> of months ago for a task manager and found a lot of posts on  
>>> planner and
>>> org-mode but was turned off by the apparently steep learning  
>>> curve. I think
>>> the word 'piecemeal' seems to come up a lot in people's learning  
>>> tendencies.
>>> For example, when looking a Sacha Chua's blogs about org-mode,  
>>> seeing her
>>> code to do what I thought was 'one simple thing' was completely  
>>> revolting...
>>> not because I didn't think it was awesome or desirable, but  
>>> because it made
>>> me feel like I would never understand or learn to ever be where  
>>> her and
>>> other users have gotten themselves after months and years of use.
>>>
>>> 'Nuff blabber. Some practical ideas to add to the discussion:
>>>
>>> - Perhaps include an extremely brief topic about Emacs in the org- 
>>> mode
>>> material. I realize one can get over to Emacs and read that, too,  
>>> but as
>>> someone who picked up Emacs specifically for org-mode, it would  
>>> have helped
>>> to just know some basics:
>>> --- As done already, it's great to have the info about 'get emacs,  
>>> then
>>> install org-mode and activate it like this'. I've used Linux for  
>>> about 4
>>> years and am familiar enough to get Emacs... just not run it!
>>> --- Open your first org-mode file with C-x C-f; now type in a  
>>> location and
>>> file_name.org to create an org-mode file
>>> --- To save your file while you work, press C-x C-s
>>>
>>> - Maybe make some kind of uber-beginner documentation? The manual  
>>> is plainly
>>> awesome... but it could have a section solely for brand-spanking new
>>> beginners who might get overwhelmed at trying to remember all the  
>>> C-this
>>> M-that stuff... What about making the commands into hierarchical  
>>> levels.
>>> Example:
>>> --- Take the 2.1 Outlines section
>>> --- What about simply leaving it as covering the headlines,
>>> unordered/ordered lists, and some basic structure editing at the  
>>> top of the
>>> section? Cover asterisks, M-arrows to move headlines and [pro/ 
>>> de]mote, etc.
>>> --- Include all the advanced commands in a section afterward?
>>>
>>> - Or, as an alternative idea, just have a set of beginner  
>>> documentation.
>>> Intentionally make it limited. Specify that arrows work fine (for  
>>> now)
>>> instead of overwhelming them with C-c C-n and the rest?
>>>
>>> - Perhaps have a suggestion for beginner migration to org-mode? I  
>>> would have
>>> loved to know:
>>> --- I eventually figured out myself that 1) I thought Emacs in  
>>> general and
>>> org-mode in specific were worthwhile investments of my time and 2)  
>>> that
>>> trying to learn Emacs and org-mode were gong to be really hard and  
>>> I was not
>>> sure that it was a feasible given my work and family life.
>>> --- What I ended up thinking to myself was simply that I would  
>>> just start
>>> simple: just take daily work notes in outline format with org- 
>>> mode. Postpone
>>> learning all the todo functionality, the tasks and agenda views,  
>>> exporting
>>> (other than the quick C-c C-e b command even though I don't know  
>>> how to keep
>>> that darned buffer from opening with the html... oh well, C-x 0),  
>>> etc.
>>>
>>> - In closing... I think beginners should have some message  
>>> tailored to them
>>> to help them with whatever they are transitioning from or whatever  
>>> led them
>>> to consider org-mode in the first place. Some, like me, are blank  
>>> slates
>>> with respect to Emacs and need a way to:
>>> --- Be informed of some extreme Emacs basics just to avoid sitting  
>>> and
>>> staring at the opening screen and not having a clue what to do next
>>> --- Not feel like they have to be walking keyboard shortcut  
>>> encyclopedias...
>>> at first
>>> --- Be encouraged to find a way to even just play in org-mode a  
>>> little at a
>>> time to get started. Get people outlining and exporting to  
>>> something useful
>>> in the first day and I think more will stick around to realize the  
>>> full
>>> depth of what org-mode can do.
>>>
>>>
>>> John
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>
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>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> -- 
>> Darlan Cavalcante Moreira
>>
>> "SDR4all, a new way of teaching telecommunications: http://www.sdr4all.com/
>>
>>
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>>
>
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