From: Bastien <bzg@gnu.org>
To: Tim Cross <theophilusx@gmail.com>
Cc: emacs-orgmode@gnu.org, Nicolas Goaziou <mail@nicolasgoaziou.fr>
Subject: Re: [POLL] Should Org tempo be enabled by default? (expand templates thru e.g. "<s[TAB]")
Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2018 01:03:28 +0200 [thread overview]
Message-ID: <87sh7d1upr.fsf@gnu.org> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <87bme1y7ft.fsf@gmail.com> (Tim Cross's message of "Mon, 30 Apr 2018 08:27:34 +1000")
Hi Tim,
thanks for your thorough and balanced feedback.
Tim Cross <theophilusx@gmail.com> writes:
> There is no solution which will make everyone happy. However, as a long
> term org user who hopes to continue using org for many more years, I
> tend to come down on the side of whatever will make org easier to
> maintain in the long term.
For org-tempo, Rasmus wrote it so I'm inclined to listen quite
carefully at his opinion.
> I think org itself should provide a very stable core and avoid
> incorporating too many add on enhancements.
I agree too. But outline would have stayed something that nobody
cares about until Org came, enhancing the outline experience. And I
guess tempo.el, something that RMS wrote in 1995, would stay unknown
until more users are exposed through it via org-tempo.el...
So I don't see org-tempo.el as something that adds extra burden: it
is a reasonable reuse of some core (underknown) Emacs functionality.
> Consequently, I'm not going to enable org-tempo, instead going for
> re-training of my fingers to use the new C-c ' binding.
You certainly mean C-c C-, :)
> So in basic terms, I agree with Nicholas' position. Having said that, I
> do feel he is being optimistic/pragmatic and Bastien's concerns are very
> valid.
To give some context: I've run a few Emacs friendly workshops in Paris
(France) since the last few months. French readers can check them
here: https://www.emacs-doctor.com/emacs-paris-user-group/
All the discussions have been really eye-opening to me in terms of
usability. I could not believe Emacs users with 10 years of Emacs-fu
would not know text-scale-increase, or M-<left/right> in Org's table,
or whatever. They could not believe I was ignoring X, Y, Z. And
*many* of them were so frustrated with Org's installation experience
and some "missing" features from one version to another... hearing
these complaints face to face face something.
Yes, from an individual point of view, adding (require 'org-tempo) is
nothing but I've tangible feedback of the pain such change can induce
for other users.
Here is what the experience can look like:
- Upgrading Emacs or Org (hurray!!)
- Trying to hit <s as usual one month after the upgrade
- Thinking your stupid
- Bisecting your configuration file to see if something changed
- Trying to remember to name of the command for <[key][tab]
- Not finding the name of the command
- Thinking your stupid
- Remembering you upgraded Org
- Not remembering whether you updated Org or Emacs or both
- Guessing it was just Org
- Running M-x org-version RET
- Looking for the email annoncement of 9.2
- Finding a one-liner saying "Enjoy!" (#ðßðđłßðđ!!)
- Remembering there is an orgmode.org website
- Feeling a bit annoyed by the 7 years old cheesy design
- Finding the "See the release note" after three minutes
- Adding a TODO task "Read Org's release notes..."
- Reading them and not remembering what you're looking for
- Thinking your stupid
- Realizing you're looking for why <sTAB is gone
- Wondering how to call <sTAB: completion? expansion? extension?
- Finding entries in ORG-NEWS a bit boring to read (youth is gone)
- Not being entirely sure to understand what it says as english
is not your your mother tongue (happens to the best of us!)
- Guessing through the lines that you need (require 'org-tempo)
- Wondering whether you'll learn salsa by adding this (tempo??)
- Thinking your stupid
- Testing and celebrating <sTAB is back
- WONDERING WHY YOU HAD TO DO ALL THIS
- Remembering the years when such victories boosted your mood
- Feeling you're now too old for this
- Or perhaps you're just stupid
- Anyway, it works now!
- Adding ;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;; on top of (require 'org-tempo)
to make sure you never delete it by accident.
...
Was it a boring list to read? Even more boring to live.
In fact, I'm inclined to ask the real question: if org-tempo is on by
default, who will have good reasons to turn it off and why?
Good night all!
--
Bastien
next prev parent reply other threads:[~2018-04-29 23:03 UTC|newest]
Thread overview: 91+ messages / expand[flat|nested] mbox.gz Atom feed top
2018-04-29 10:24 [POLL] Should Org tempo be enabled by default? (expand templates thru e.g. "<s[TAB]") Bastien
2018-04-29 10:50 ` Nicolas Goaziou
2018-04-29 11:05 ` Bastien
2018-04-29 12:01 ` Nicolas Goaziou
2018-04-29 13:22 ` Bastien
2018-04-29 17:40 ` Thomas S. Dye
2018-04-29 20:56 ` Bastien
2018-04-29 22:05 ` Tim Cross
2018-04-29 22:31 ` Bastien
2018-04-29 22:27 ` Tim Cross
2018-04-29 23:03 ` Bastien [this message]
2018-04-30 10:29 ` Nicolas Goaziou
2018-04-30 14:03 ` Kevin Foley
2018-04-30 14:17 ` Kevin Foley
2018-05-05 17:20 ` Rasmus
2018-05-02 12:43 ` Bernt Hansen
2018-05-08 6:23 ` Bastien
2018-05-05 17:17 ` Rasmus
2018-05-08 6:27 ` Bastien
2018-05-01 15:49 ` Aaron Ecay
2018-05-01 19:31 ` Eric S Fraga
2018-05-02 9:10 ` Rasmus Pank Roulund
2018-05-02 17:12 ` Aaron Ecay
2018-05-05 17:29 ` Rasmus
2018-05-06 20:02 ` Aaron Ecay
2018-05-07 22:53 ` Rasmus
2018-05-08 0:57 ` Aaron Ecay
2018-05-08 6:56 ` Bastien
2018-05-21 14:24 ` Rasmus
2018-05-08 6:52 ` Bastien
2018-05-21 14:19 ` Rasmus
2018-05-08 6:49 ` Smooth transition for modules (was: [POLL] Should Org tempo be enabled by default? (expand templates thru e.g. "<s[TAB]")) Bastien
2018-05-08 9:26 ` Aaron Ecay
2018-05-08 9:46 ` Smooth transition for modules Bastien
2018-05-08 13:28 ` Aaron Ecay
2018-05-08 6:34 ` [POLL] Should Org tempo be enabled by default? (expand templates thru e.g. "<s[TAB]") Bastien
2018-04-30 8:47 ` Eric S Fraga
2018-05-08 8:37 ` Bastien
2018-04-29 13:24 ` Christian Moe
2018-04-29 13:55 ` Charles Millar
2018-04-29 19:08 ` Diego Zamboni
2018-04-29 20:30 ` Rasmus
2018-04-29 20:44 ` Bastien
2018-04-29 23:32 ` Bernt Hansen
2018-05-02 20:24 ` Bernt Hansen
2018-05-03 9:44 ` Carsten Dominik
2018-05-03 13:30 ` William Denton
2018-05-04 7:34 ` Neil Jerram
2018-05-04 7:45 ` Bastien
2018-05-05 1:37 ` Samuel Wales
2018-05-05 2:16 ` Tim Cross
2018-05-05 2:28 ` Samuel Wales
2018-05-05 2:37 ` Tim Cross
2018-05-05 12:42 ` Nicolas Goaziou
2018-05-05 17:33 ` Rasmus
2018-05-01 11:57 ` Nick Helm
2018-04-29 20:25 ` Rasmus
2018-04-29 21:53 ` Nicolas Goaziou
2018-05-02 9:03 ` Rasmus
2018-04-30 16:36 ` Steve Downey
-- strict thread matches above, loose matches on Subject: below --
2018-04-29 15:06 Jon Snader
2018-04-30 20:37 ` Richard Lawrence
2018-04-30 20:46 ` Peter Dewey Ore
2018-04-30 21:33 ` Michael Gauland
2018-04-30 21:46 ` Jon Snader
2018-04-30 22:25 ` Tim Cross
2018-04-30 22:35 ` Cook, Malcolm
2018-04-30 22:39 ` Jon Snader
2018-04-30 22:49 ` Kaushal Modi
2018-05-01 1:29 ` Alan Tyree
2018-05-01 14:07 ` Christophe Schockaert
2018-05-01 2:00 ` Tim Cross
2018-05-01 2:27 ` Steve Downey
2018-05-01 12:35 ` Nicolas Goaziou
2018-05-01 16:28 ` Aaron Ecay
2018-05-05 18:07 ` Rasmus
2018-05-06 20:34 ` Aaron Ecay
2018-05-06 22:11 ` Tim Cross
2018-05-07 22:30 ` Rasmus
2018-05-08 0:25 ` Aaron Ecay
2018-05-08 7:36 ` Bastien
2018-05-13 20:52 ` Rasmus
2018-05-01 16:54 ` Cook, Malcolm
2018-05-05 18:01 ` Rasmus
2018-05-06 5:00 ` Carsten Dominik
2018-05-07 22:33 ` Rasmus
2018-05-08 7:37 ` Bastien
2018-05-21 14:35 ` Rasmus
2018-05-05 23:26 ` Adrian Bradd
2018-05-05 23:37 ` Josiah Schwab
2018-05-08 7:31 ` Bastien
Reply instructions:
You may reply publicly to this message via plain-text email
using any one of the following methods:
* Save the following mbox file, import it into your mail client,
and reply-to-all from there: mbox
Avoid top-posting and favor interleaved quoting:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Posting_style#Interleaved_style
List information: https://www.orgmode.org/
* Reply using the --to, --cc, and --in-reply-to
switches of git-send-email(1):
git send-email \
--in-reply-to=87sh7d1upr.fsf@gnu.org \
--to=bzg@gnu.org \
--cc=emacs-orgmode@gnu.org \
--cc=mail@nicolasgoaziou.fr \
--cc=theophilusx@gmail.com \
/path/to/YOUR_REPLY
https://kernel.org/pub/software/scm/git/docs/git-send-email.html
* If your mail client supports setting the In-Reply-To header
via mailto: links, try the mailto: link
Be sure your reply has a Subject: header at the top and a blank line
before the message body.
Code repositories for project(s) associated with this public inbox
https://git.savannah.gnu.org/cgit/emacs/org-mode.git
This is a public inbox, see mirroring instructions
for how to clone and mirror all data and code used for this inbox;
as well as URLs for read-only IMAP folder(s) and NNTP newsgroup(s).