From: "Dr. Arne Babenhauserheide" <arne_bab@web.de>
To: Karl Voit <news2042@Karl-Voit.at>
Cc: Karl Voit <devnull@Karl-Voit.at>, emacs-orgmode@gnu.org
Subject: Re: Orgdown: negative feedback & attempt of a root-cause analysis (was: "Orgdown", the new name for the syntax of Org-mode)
Date: Tue, 30 Nov 2021 23:28:26 +0100 [thread overview]
Message-ID: <87mtll45u7.fsf@web.de> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <2021-11-30T21-02-53@devnull.Karl-Voit.at>
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Karl Voit <devnull@Karl-Voit.at> writes:
> * M ‘quintus’ Gülker <mg@guelker.eu> wrote:
>> Am Montag, dem 29. November 2021 schrieb Karl Voit:
>>> It seems to be the case that the name "Orgdown" is the reason why
>>> the Org-mode community does not support the idea of an
>>> implementation-agnostic definition of the syntax. Which is ... kinda
>>> funny if you think about it.
This does not represent my answer correctly.
I explicitly said that org is implementation-defined, so *full*
compatibility cannot easily be achieved outside Emacs. That does not
prevent partial compatibility.
>>> Well if the project is not working out, at least I made my point and
>>> we continue to have all those misunderstandings and lack of Orgdown
>>> support in 3rd party tools (because Org-mode is way too big).
>>
>> I think the project has value; better tooling outside of Emacs is
>> something org can only profit from in my opinion. One point that has not
>> been raised yet are scenarios of collaborative work; I would enjoy it
>> quite a bit if I could work on documents together with people who do not
>> like Emacs as an editor for whatever reason. Currently, org as a file
>> format is pretty much excluded if collaboration is intended with someone
>> who does not use Emacs. The natural choice in these cases is Markdown.
>
> I agree.
>
> One of the next things I do have on my list is to try out crdt as
> I've learned at EmacsConf21 that it is mature enough to be used in
> practice.
>
> If that holds true, we can start dreaming of having a Etherpad-like
> session from our GNU/Emacs while peers are connected to the same
> session via some web-based tool/service.
That would be pretty nice. You might also want to look at orgzly[1],
org-js[2], or markup-rocks[3].
[1]: http://www.orgzly.com/help
[2]: https://github.com/mooz/org-js
[3]: https://markup.rocks/
All of these call org-mode syntax simply "org".
> There were two possible generic approaches for me: start from zero
> with an open process, involving peers in all choices such as naming,
> Orgdown1 syntax elements, ...
You can also just take up the already given arguments, form a decision,
and then move forward.
> Simply switching to a different name is not just search&replace. It
> would reset the project almost to its very start again, losing the
> go-live effect of previous weekend (whose effect might be
> questionable considering the name discussion), its project URL that
> is now out there, the motivation video which aims to explain the
> motivation to users of Emacs, the EmacsConf21 talk publicity, and it
> would require much effort to reach the status where Orgdown is now.
Why is that?
From the technical side a simple entry in NEWS „Orgdown now uses the
name Org Syntax as alias“ and a second domain should suffice.
It’s the emotional side that no one but you could solve.
> My guess is that most people do not suffer much from different
> Markdown flavors because they rarely mix them in their workflows. I
> guess most people are using Markdown only in their text editor OR
> only in GitHub/GitLab org files OR only within any other
> Markdown-tool.
Or they just don’t use 90% of markdown features. Titles, quoted, bold,
emphasis, links, inline-source, source-blocks. Which is a big difference
compared to Org mode.
Even with that, source-blocks tend to break between implementations.
>> Maybe most documents are very simple files. README files for FLOSS
>> projects, forum posts, blog posts. For such content the features where
>> the Markdown implementations differ are usually not required.
>
> This sounds also a plausible explanation and is also boosted by
> another posting as an answer to yours.
And markdown has inline HTML: Anything missing (like tables) is just
exported from org-mode as HTML.
> I don't think that users of LaTeX/ConTeXt are part of the target
> group. They would actually lose a bit of having control, I think.
> And Overleaf might be too hard to beat I guess although I personally
> don't like to use cloud-based services but meanwhile that's the
> opinion of a tiny minority.
Switching from LaTeX to Org-Mode was a very empowering step for me,
because it simpified most documents a lot, enabled quick restructuring,
allowed for easy tracking of TODO-states and using executed inline-code
via babel — and I gained HTML export for free.
It’s not the tool for a single paper to one journal that only has to fit
one format and is never edited after final submission, but for any
larger writing, org-mode is quite a boost in productivity.
Best wishes,
Arne
--
Unpolitisch sein
heißt politisch sein,
ohne es zu merken.
draketo.de
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next prev parent reply other threads:[~2021-11-30 22:50 UTC|newest]
Thread overview: 39+ messages / expand[flat|nested] mbox.gz Atom feed top
2021-11-28 19:46 "Orgdown", the new name for the syntax of Org-mode Karl Voit
2021-11-28 21:34 ` Jean-Christophe Helary
2021-11-28 21:39 ` Bruce D'Arcus
2021-11-28 21:50 ` Tom Gillespie
2021-11-28 22:25 ` Juan Manuel Macías
2021-11-28 22:57 ` Tom Gillespie
2021-11-28 23:16 ` Joost Kremers
2021-11-29 1:36 ` George Mauer
2021-11-29 3:25 ` Juan Manuel Macías
2021-11-29 7:13 ` Dr. Arne Babenhauserheide
2021-11-28 23:24 ` Jean-Christophe Helary
2021-11-29 3:25 ` Devin Prater
2021-12-26 14:54 ` Jean-Christophe Helary
2021-11-29 5:41 ` Marcin Borkowski
2021-11-29 12:18 ` Juan Manuel Macías
2021-11-29 12:36 ` Marcin Borkowski
2021-11-28 22:42 ` Tim Cross
2021-11-29 13:19 ` Karl Voit
2021-11-29 15:12 ` Matt Price
2021-11-29 18:27 ` M. ‘quintus’ Gülker
2021-11-30 7:39 ` Marcin Borkowski
2021-11-30 20:44 ` Orgdown: negative feedback & attempt of a root-cause analysis (was: "Orgdown", the new name for the syntax of Org-mode) Karl Voit
2021-11-30 22:28 ` Dr. Arne Babenhauserheide [this message]
2021-11-30 22:50 ` Eduardo Ochs
2021-12-01 0:41 ` Tom Gillespie
2021-12-01 1:12 ` Tim Cross
2021-12-01 3:28 ` Orgdown: negative feedback & attempt of a root-cause analysis Juan Manuel Macías
2021-12-01 21:17 ` Orgdown: negative feedback & attempt of a root-cause analysis (was: "Orgdown", the new name for the syntax of Org-mode) M. ‘quintus’ Gülker
2021-12-02 6:50 ` Orgdown: negative feedback & attempt of a root-cause analysis Eric S Fraga
2021-12-01 23:43 ` Karl Voit
2021-12-02 1:44 ` Tim Cross
2021-12-02 2:12 ` George Mauer
2021-12-02 8:07 ` Greg Minshall
2021-11-29 2:22 ` "Orgdown", the new name for the syntax of Org-mode Jim Porter
2021-11-29 2:33 ` Michael Ashton
2021-11-29 12:38 ` Max Nikulin
2021-11-29 12:58 ` Christophe Schockaert
2021-11-30 23:50 ` Samuel Wales
2021-11-30 23:56 ` Samuel Wales
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