Offer for taking over maintainership

Offer for taking over maintainership

[Jambunathan K]

I offer to take over maintainership of Org.

Offer closes in 7 days.  Only pre-condition will be that Org-8.0 and
subsequent releases happen under my supervision.

Principals and riff-raffs can PM me with your thoughts.  I defend your
right to choose the maintainer or express yourself freely.

Note: Anger is futile, particularly over the internet.
-- 

Re: Offer for taking over maintainership

[Jambunathan K]

Jambunathan K <kjambunathan@gmail.com> writes:

> I offer to take over maintainership of Org.
>
> Offer closes in 7 days.  

Adding a note to myself.  Feb 20, IST

> Only pre-condition will be that Org-8.0 and subsequent releases happen
> under my supervision.
>
> Principals and riff-raffs can PM me with your thoughts.  I defend your
> right to choose the maintainer or express yourself freely.
>
> Note: Anger is futile, particularly over the internet.

-- 

Re: Offer for taking over maintainership

[John Wiegley]

>>>>> Jambunathan K <kjambunathan@gmail.com> writes:

> I offer to take over maintainership of Org.
> Offer closes in 7 days.  Only pre-condition will be that Org-8.0 and
> subsequent releases happen under my supervision.
> 
> Principals and riff-raffs can PM me with your thoughts.  I defend your right
> to choose the maintainer or express yourself freely.

I don't know, Jambunathan, the tone of this offer makes me inclined to reject
it.  I didn't even realize Bastien was looking for a replacement.

John

Re: Offer for taking over maintainership

[Allen S. Rout]

On 02/13/2013 03:45 PM, John Wiegley wrote:

>  I didn't even realize Bastien was looking for a replacement.


There's no technical reason someone interested in making an offer should
necessarily wait for a declared vacancy.  It seems a straightforward
move of no-confidence, soliciting support.



It would probably be most peaceful not to discuss Jambunathan's offer on
this forum.   I expect that the count of +1s to the offer will
communicate the list's collective opinion.


- Allen S. Rout

Re: Offer for taking over maintainership

[Russell Adams]

> It would probably be most peaceful not to discuss Jambunathan's offer on
> this forum.   I expect that the count of +1s to the offer will
> communicate the list's collective opinion.

I've ignored Jambunathan so far, hoping that not feeding the troll
will make it go away. I understand he's contributed significant code,
but his combative attitude is an instant turn off. I can't imagine a
team leader (which is what I consider a maintainer) having such a
negative attitude. Often team leads require better people skills than
coding skills because most of their time is spent in team management,
I see no evidence of superior skills being demonstrated here.

I'll also point out that I can always tell when Bastien comes back
from an announced vacation, suddenly my inbox fills up with replies to
everything that hasn't been answered yet. I'm impressed with Bastien's
staying power and people skills, he needs no replacement.

-1

------------------------------------------------------------------
Russell Adams                            RLAdams@AdamsInfoServ.com

PGP Key ID:     0x1160DCB3           http://www.adamsinfoserv.com/

Fingerprint:    1723 D8CA 4280 1EC9 557F  66E8 1154 E018 1160 DCB3

Re: Offer for taking over maintainership

[Charles Philip Chan]

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Jambunathan K <kjambunathan@gmail.com> writes:

> I offer to take over maintainership of Org.
>
> Offer closes in 7 days.  Only pre-condition will be that Org-8.0 and
> subsequent releases happen under my supervision.
>
> Principals and riff-raffs can PM me with your thoughts.  I defend your
> right to choose the maintainer or express yourself freely.
>
> Note: Anger is futile, particularly over the internet.

I refrained from posting until this coup. Jambunathan, I appreciate your
contributions to org-mode. However, your attitude just pisses me
off. Being a good maintainer needs people skills which you obviously
lack. My vote is "-1".

Charles

-- 
"People get annoyed when you try to debug them."

  -- Larry Wall (Open Sources, 1999 O'Reilly and Associates)

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Re: Offer for taking over maintainership

[Yagnesh Raghava Yakkala]

Dear Jambunathan,

On Feb 14 2013, Jambunathan K <kjambunathan@gmail.com> wrote:

> express yourself freely.

By taking advantage of that opportunity, expressing my voice here. Feel *free
to ignore/dismiss* it.

As a competent programmer and strong FSF supporter you can play a bigger role
in the broader field(i.e., Emacs). Since you have now got commit access to
Emacs core, you can contribute more to the Emacs as a whole while maintaining
org-odt from Emacs. I see you have some interest in CEDET as well, or maybe
you could also bless us with some other great project just like Org.

That said, Org community(including you) will remember your kind offer and asks
your help when it is necessary.

Thanks.,
-- 
ఎందరో మహానుభావులు అందరికి వందనములు.
YYR

Re: Offer for taking over maintainership

[Bastien]

Dear all,

Jambunathan (like anyone) is free to fork the code, to build
a community around his fork and to submit his changes to Emacs.
He has commit access to Emacs, so that should even make things
easier for him.

This is free software, and the ability to fork is what makes
sure we are all focused on software, not on personal issues.

I am not actively looking for a new maintainer right now, I'm 
focusing on releasing Org 8.0 -- like all other contributors.

I've been long thinking of stepping down, but I don't want to
make this move before I have found someone me and longstanding
contributors feel comfortable interacting with.

Stay tuned!

Thanks,

-- 
 Bastien

Re: Offer for taking over maintainership

[François Pinard]

Jambunathan K <kjambunathan@gmail.com> writes:

> I offer to take over maintainership of Org.

-1

François

P.S. I love the Org project, and I strongly hope it stay lovable.  The
human qualities of a maintainer, and the crowd surrounding him/her, are
very important to me.  In the past, I left projects, languages and even
duties just to make sure I stay surrounded by nice people.  And I
succeeded so far, and met many extraordinary people that changed my
life.  I would be sad if I had to get away from a very satisfying
project, merely because it stops being a warm place to be.

Re: Offer for taking over maintainership

[Scott Randby]

On 02/13/2013 04:41 PM, Russell Adams wrote:
>> It would probably be most peaceful not to discuss Jambunathan's offer on
>> this forum.   I expect that the count of +1s to the offer will
>> communicate the list's collective opinion.
> 
> I've ignored Jambunathan so far, hoping that not feeding the troll
> will make it go away. I understand he's contributed significant code,
> but his combative attitude is an instant turn off. I can't imagine a
> team leader (which is what I consider a maintainer) having such a
> negative attitude. Often team leads require better people skills than
> coding skills because most of their time is spent in team management,
> I see no evidence of superior skills being demonstrated here.
> 
> I'll also point out that I can always tell when Bastien comes back
> from an announced vacation, suddenly my inbox fills up with replies to
> everything that hasn't been answered yet. I'm impressed with Bastien's
> staying power and people skills, he needs no replacement.
> 

I'm in 100% agreement with this excellent statement.

Scott Randby

Re: Offer for taking over maintainership

[Takaaki ISHIKAWA]

Dear all,

I cannot see any reason to change the maintainer.
My vote is "-1".

Best regards,
Takaaki Ishikawa



--
Takaaki ISHIKAWA <takaxp@ieee.org>
  GITI, Waseda University
    ( ' -')b http://about.me/takaxp


On 2013年2月14日Thursday at 3:08, Jambunathan K wrote:

>  
> I offer to take over maintainership of Org.
>  
> Offer closes in 7 days. Only pre-condition will be that Org-8.0 and
> subsequent releases happen under my supervision.
>  
> Principals and riff-raffs can PM me with your thoughts. I defend your
> right to choose the maintainer or express yourself freely.
>  
> Note: Anger is futile, particularly over the internet.
> --  

Re: Offer for taking over maintainership

[Jonathan Leech-Pepin]

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On 13 February 2013 13:08, Jambunathan K <kjambunathan@gmail.com> wrote:

>
> I offer to take over maintainership of Org.
>

I have to say -1 as well.

>
> Offer closes in 7 days.  Only pre-condition will be that Org-8.0 and
> subsequent releases happen under my supervision.
>
Is there something in particular about the forthcoming 8.0 that you would
want done differently from how it currently is being done?  Considering
Bastien's
current plan is to push towards releasing it in the near future.


>
> Principals and riff-raffs can PM me with your thoughts.  I defend your
>  right to choose the maintainer or express yourself freely.
>

The tone in this bit, classifying readers of the list either as principals
(I'm assuming
this would be Bastien and others who are highly active in maintaining and
updating
Org) or riff-raff (meaning the rest of the user base?) is hardly endearing.

I appreciate the org-odt exporter, I haven't had much use for it but what I
have had to
use it for it worked perfectly.  However your attitude in the past has
often struck me as
abrasive or argumentative when there was little to no reason for it.
 Either there's some
underlying reason for your apparent dislike for Bastien and his approach to
maintaining
Org, or some argument in the past that I am not aware of.

Regardless, Bastien is doing a fine job from what I can see, he is
certainly actively assisting
users who post with questions or bugs, even when they occurred during a
time where he was
absent (with prior notice).  Perhaps he has not contributed to certain
aspects as others have,
however his presence and monitoring of the smaller aspects does allow for
further development
to proceed without being interrupted by every issue.

Regards,
Jon
--

Note: Anger is futile, particularly over the internet.
> --
>
>

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Fwd: Offer for taking over maintainership

[Samuel Wales]

Bad people skills are one thing, and sometimes we tolerate them
(although not in a maintainer), but in certain cases, notably outright
ugly bigotry of its various forms, some people should not be on a
mailing list, much less play a critical role.  This is such a case.

-1 is not enough.  Negative infinity.

Samuel Wales

-- 
The Kafka Pandemic: http://thekafkapandemic.blogspot.com

The disease DOES progress.  MANY people have died from it.  ANYBODY
can get it.  There is no hope without action.

Re: Offer for taking over maintainership

[Jambunathan K]

You seem to stand out in the mob.  So some personal hugs from side.

>> Offer closes in 7 days.  Only pre-condition will be that Org-8.0 and
>> subsequent releases happen under my supervision.
>>
> Is there something in particular about the forthcoming 8.0 that you
> would want done differently from how it currently is being done?
> Considering Bastien's current plan is to push towards releasing it in
> the near future.

I wish more people ask an open-ended question rather than sit in
judgement seat.  Trial by jury is always interesting.  (There is also an
interesting movie I have seen on this topic, decades ago.)

> I appreciate the org-odt exporter, I haven't had much use for it but
> what I have had to use it for it worked perfectly.  However your
> attitude in the past has often struck me as abrasive or argumentative
> when there was little to no reason for it.  Either there's some
> underlying reason for your apparent dislike for Bastien and his
> approach to maintaining Org, or some argument in the past that I am
> not aware of.

Why would most people think that I am a moron.  The last line is
exemplary of what the jury and the judge should mull about.

ps-1: I refuse to answer your questions.  The debate and offer is on my
      terms if people don't understand it.

ps-2: I am calling everyone's bluff, if you haven't realized it already.
      (Believe me, I am not acting like a smart donkey here.)

ps-3: An extra and a proven hand helps particularly in volunteer driven
      efforts.  My palm could be stinking?  Does that mean my code
      stinks.  Most people would rather talk, than look, think, ask or
      do?
-- 

Re: Offer for taking over maintainership

[Jambunathan K]

(Discussion is meta.  So bear with my amateurish excursions.)

Some times the best question to ask is NOT "What I stand to gain?" but
"What I/We stand to lose?".  Are the overheads worth it in the long run?

Everyone wants to gain all the time without losing anything.  I call
that interesting.

Jambunathan K <kjambunathan@gmail.com> writes:

> You seem to stand out in the mob.  So some personal hugs from side.
>
>>> Offer closes in 7 days.  Only pre-condition will be that Org-8.0 and
>>> subsequent releases happen under my supervision.
>>>
>> Is there something in particular about the forthcoming 8.0 that you
>> would want done differently from how it currently is being done?
>> Considering Bastien's current plan is to push towards releasing it in
>> the near future.
>
> I wish more people ask an open-ended question rather than sit in
> judgement seat.  Trial by jury is always interesting.  (There is also an
> interesting movie I have seen on this topic, decades ago.)
>
>> I appreciate the org-odt exporter, I haven't had much use for it but
>> what I have had to use it for it worked perfectly.  However your
>> attitude in the past has often struck me as abrasive or argumentative
>> when there was little to no reason for it.  Either there's some
>> underlying reason for your apparent dislike for Bastien and his
>> approach to maintaining Org, or some argument in the past that I am
>> not aware of.
>
> Why would most people think that I am a moron.  The last line is
> exemplary of what the jury and the judge should mull about.
>
> ps-1: I refuse to answer your questions.  The debate and offer is on my
>       terms if people don't understand it.
>
> ps-2: I am calling everyone's bluff, if you haven't realized it already.
>       (Believe me, I am not acting like a smart donkey here.)
>
> ps-3: An extra and a proven hand helps particularly in volunteer driven
>       efforts.  My palm could be stinking?  Does that mean my code
>       stinks.  Most people would rather talk, than look, think, ask or
>       do?

-- 

Re: Offer for taking over maintainership

[Bastien]

Hi Jonathan,

Jonathan Leech-Pepin <jonathan.leechpepin@gmail.com> writes:

>  Either there's some
> underlying reason for your apparent dislike for Bastien and his
> approach to maintaining
> Org, or some argument in the past that I am not aware of.

For the sake of clarity (and history), here is how I understand why
Jambunathan thinks I am not a good maintainer: he was frustrated with
the way I handled the merge of the ODT export feature.

The very first ODT exporter was based on two libraries: org-lparse.el
and org-xhtml.el.  org-lparse.el implemented a new export engine that
org-xhtml.el was using to produce HTML, and org-odt.el would build on
top of both librairies.

This approach was not satisfactory to me.  First, because I found
org-lparse.el was ugly, mixing the wrong line-by-line approach for
parsing an Org buffer, and the better "recursive" approach (have a
look at org-lparse.el to get an idea of whether it is ugly.)  Second,
because I thought having org-xhtml.el along org-html.el was confusing.

Nicolas already started to work on his new exporter, encouraged by the
first modest proof of concept I had for the recursive approach.

I took the decision to delay the merge of the ODT exporter until it
didn't rely on org-xhtml.el anymore, because I thought that relying
on org-lparse.el for two export formats (HTML and ODT) was a wrong
move, giving the wrong signal to Nicolas.

When org-xhtml.el was not in the game anymore, and when I was
confident Nicolas was deeply committed to the new exporter, I went
with the merge.  I was happy!  I even received kudos from Jambunathan
when I managed to solve possible copyright issues wrt merging .xml
files into Emacs (there was a confusion on whether those files were
copyrighted by OASIS and "mergeable" into Emacs.)

Maybe Jambunathan thought all this was too slow, and based on stupid
decisions.  He was on a sabbatical year at the time, and had plenty of
time to work on the exporter and to put the pressure on me.  I was
maintaining Org in my spare time, and tried to handle the pressure the
way I could.

I hope this is faithful to the facts -- all this is publicly available
on this mailing list anyway!

> Regardless, Bastien is doing a fine job from what I can see, he is
> certainly actively assisting
> users who post with questions or bugs, even when they occurred during
> a time where he was
> absent (with prior notice).  Perhaps he has not contributed to
> certain aspects as others have,
> however his presence and monitoring of the smaller aspects does allow
> for further development
> to proceed without being interrupted by every issue.

Actually, one of the reasons I want to step down in the long run is
that I'm a bit frustrated of not having time enough to focus on big
new features.  But the flow of new users and new contributors is
rewarding enough so that maintaining Org keeps being fun :)

All best,

-- 
 Bastien

Re: Offer for taking over maintainership

[David Rogers]

Jambunathan K <kjambunathan@gmail.com> writes:

> I offer to take over maintainership of Org.

Org right now is making quick progress, important improvements, and has
a lot of enthusiastic and useful contributors. When a maintainer
decision needs to be made, there is usually a satisfactory result. (Not
to say there are no arguments - but every software project has
arguments.)  Questions get answered properly, people are able and
willing to help each other, number of users seems to be large. It is
hard to imagine that a campaign to change the leadership style would do
anything good, and easy to imagine that it could be destructive.

-1

-- 
David

Re: Offer for taking over maintainership

[Ramon Diaz-Uriarte]

> I offer to take over maintainership of Org.


-1 too (or -infinity, if allowed, as previously suggested).



-- 
Ramon Diaz-Uriarte
Department of Biochemistry, Lab B-25
Facultad de Medicina 
Universidad Autónoma de Madrid 
Arzobispo Morcillo, 4
28029 Madrid
Spain

Phone: +34-91-497-2412

Email: rdiaz02@gmail.com
       ramon.diaz@iib.uam.es

http://ligarto.org/rdiaz

Re: Offer for taking over maintainership

[Jambunathan K]

I wrote the exporters and contribute to Emacs just because I feel
decades (or couple of decades) down the road when Carstens, Bastiens,
Nicolas, Erics and all others fade in to irrelevance and obscurity,
Emacs and by extension Orgmode will continue to be used by some
enterprising student in one of the ghettos of a first, second, third,
fourth and fifth world countries.  There are uber-rich, uber-elite and
who will have access to it.  That's true.  When a field is irrigated it
is inevitable that weeds also get water.

Emacs users are enterprising, opinionated, articulate, eloquent.  The
ecosystem is rich and a student who enters this eco-system will end up
richer and well-rounded.

I would rather help a student who I have no possibility of seeing or
hearing from or who has no conceivable way to transfer funds to me or
even worse no funds to transfer at all.  (Is Time travel still
possible?)

I see some people from India (or Indian sub-continent, it is difficult
to say by looking at the names) every now and then in Emacs mailing
lists.  If it's true that future is manifest in an obscure form
somewhere right now, I feel what I have done is useful irrespective of
my personal style is useful.

Ever wondered why you think I never ran away but stuck around making my
threat fall by wayside.  I have some clarity in what my goals are.

I don't want to masochistic.  That which I have created is used and
useful and irrespective of what my style is.  I am not here to exchange
hugs with strangers on the internet.  I cannot be more stupid if I were
to chase after people's shifting allegiances.

Yagnesh Raghava Yakkala <hi@yagnesh.org> writes:

> Dear Jambunathan,
>
> On Feb 14 2013, Jambunathan K <kjambunathan@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> express yourself freely.
>
> By taking advantage of that opportunity, expressing my voice here. Feel *free
> to ignore/dismiss* it.
>
> As a competent programmer and strong FSF supporter you can play a bigger role
> in the broader field(i.e., Emacs). Since you have now got commit access to
> Emacs core, you can contribute more to the Emacs as a whole while maintaining
> org-odt from Emacs. I see you have some interest in CEDET as well, or maybe
> you could also bless us with some other great project just like Org.
>
> That said, Org community(including you) will remember your kind offer and asks
> your help when it is necessary.
>
> Thanks.,

-- 

Re: Offer for taking over maintainership

[Jambunathan K]

"Allen S. Rout" <asr@ufl.edu> writes:

> On 02/13/2013 03:45 PM, John Wiegley wrote:
>
>>  I didn't even realize Bastien was looking for a replacement.
>
>
> There's no technical reason someone interested in making an offer should
> necessarily wait for a declared vacancy.  It seems a straightforward
> move of no-confidence, soliciting support.

True.

No one realizes that the results are already rigged.  There is big
carrot and a small stick.  People are after the stick.  It is funny that
nobody is mooting whether the carrot can be shared.

If people are talking it is inevitable that they shift their position
(atleast a wee bit).  If this doesn't happen they are just saying and
while pretending to be talking.

It is true that people who had arrogance to predict the future most
likely ended up with muds in their face while wise smirk and smile away
with "I told you so!".

It is amusing to hear of people skills and an ability to lead a team.
Good developers and those who delude themselves in to being good resent
being led.

A little appreciation of history goes a long way in understanding the
nuances and riches.  Speaking of platitudes, most fall for it.

> It would probably be most peaceful not to discuss Jambunathan's offer on
> this forum.   I expect that the count of +1s to the offer will
> communicate the list's collective opinion.
>
>
> - Allen S. Rout
>
>
>
>

-- 

Re: Offer for taking over maintainership

[Jambunathan K]

Bastien <bzg@altern.org> writes:

> Dear all,
>
> Jambunathan (like anyone) is free to fork the code, to build
> a community around his fork and to submit his changes to Emacs.
> He has commit access to Emacs, so that should even make things
> easier for him.
>
> This is free software, and the ability to fork is what makes
> sure we are all focused on software, not on personal issues.

No thanks.

> I am not actively looking for a new maintainer right now

I withdraw my offer.  It will be fun to see poeple doing "-1"s.  That
will be fun.

> I'm focusing on releasing Org 8.0 -- like all other contributors.
>
> I've been long thinking of stepping down, but I don't want to
> make this move before I have found someone me and longstanding
> contributors feel comfortable interacting with.

Aha! You are not forced to fill people's Inboxes.  I wish you best of
luck for what you assume to be a thankless job but verily brings more
"Thanks!  You helped me."  Beware of these allegiances.  They will shift
with the winds.

>
> Stay tuned!
>
> Thanks,

-- 

Re: Fwd: Offer for taking over maintainership

[Jambunathan K]

Samuel Wales <samologist@gmail.com> writes:

> some people should not be on a mailing list, much less play a critical
> role.  This is such a case.

Do you have the, lock do you?  Otherwise, you are at the mercy of who
hold the lock and the keys.

> Samuel Wales

-- 

Re: Offer for taking over maintainership

[Rainer M Krug]

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

On 14/02/13 07:45, Jambunathan K wrote:
> 
> (Discussion is meta.  So bear with my amateurish excursions.)
> 
> Some times the best question to ask is NOT "What I stand to gain?" but "What I/We stand to
> lose?".  Are the overheads worth it in the long run?

Yes - we want to know - tell us and don't talk in riddles.

Try to convince us, or hold forever your peace. Unless you can convince me / us that you would be
a better maintainer, Bastien has my full support.

And please - let us go back to the useful community org was.


Cheers,

Rainer

> 
> Everyone wants to gain all the time without losing anything.  I call that interesting.
> 
> Jambunathan K <kjambunathan@gmail.com> writes:
> 
>> You seem to stand out in the mob.  So some personal hugs from side.
>> 
>>>> Offer closes in 7 days.  Only pre-condition will be that Org-8.0 and subsequent releases
>>>> happen under my supervision.
>>>> 
>>> Is there something in particular about the forthcoming 8.0 that you would want done
>>> differently from how it currently is being done? Considering Bastien's current plan is to
>>> push towards releasing it in the near future.
>> 
>> I wish more people ask an open-ended question rather than sit in judgement seat.  Trial by
>> jury is always interesting.  (There is also an interesting movie I have seen on this topic,
>> decades ago.)
>> 
>>> I appreciate the org-odt exporter, I haven't had much use for it but what I have had to use
>>> it for it worked perfectly.  However your attitude in the past has often struck me as
>>> abrasive or argumentative when there was little to no reason for it.  Either there's some 
>>> underlying reason for your apparent dislike for Bastien and his approach to maintaining
>>> Org, or some argument in the past that I am not aware of.
>> 
>> Why would most people think that I am a moron.  The last line is exemplary of what the jury
>> and the judge should mull about.
>> 
>> ps-1: I refuse to answer your questions.  The debate and offer is on my terms if people don't
>> understand it.
>> 
>> ps-2: I am calling everyone's bluff, if you haven't realized it already. (Believe me, I am
>> not acting like a smart donkey here.)
>> 
>> ps-3: An extra and a proven hand helps particularly in volunteer driven efforts.  My palm
>> could be stinking?  Does that mean my code stinks.  Most people would rather talk, than look,
>> think, ask or do?
> 

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Re: Offer for taking over maintainership

[Jambunathan K]

Jambunathan K <kjambunathan@gmail.com> writes:

> Aha! You are not forced to fill people's Inboxes.
               ^^^
               now

Re: Offer for taking over maintainership

[Jambunathan K]

> Yes - we want to know - tell us and don't talk in riddles.

I offer no ready-made solutions.  Riddles need work, true.
-- 

Re: Offer for taking over maintainership

[Rainer M Krug]

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On 14/02/13 10:50, Jambunathan K wrote:
> 
>> Yes - we want to know - tell us and don't talk in riddles.
> 
> I offer no ready-made solutions.  Riddles need work, true.
> 

My last question:

Solutions for what?


- -- 
Rainer M. Krug, PhD (Conservation Ecology, SUN), MSc (Conservation Biology, UCT), Dipl. Phys.
(Germany)

Centre of Excellence for Invasion Biology
Stellenbosch University
South Africa

Tel :       +33 - (0)9 53 10 27 44
Cell:       +33 - (0)6 85 62 59 98
Fax :       +33 - (0)9 58 10 27 44

Fax (D):    +49 - (0)3 21 21 25 22 44

email:      Rainer@krugs.de

Skype:      RMkrug
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Re: Offer for taking over maintainership

[Bastien]

This is a list to discussion Org-mode.

To discuss moral aspects of using or contributing to Emacs,
please use news:alt.religion.emacs

Who knows, you might also end up quoted in emacs/etc/DEVEL.HUMOR,
which is my own personal Graal.

-- 
 Bastien

Re: Offer for taking over maintainership

[Glyn Millington]

Jambunathan K <kjambunathan@gmail.com> writes:

> Bastien <bzg@altern.org> writes:
>
>> Dear all,
>> Jambunathan (like anyone) is free to fork the code, to build a
>> community around his fork and to submit his changes to Emacs.  He
>> has commit access to Emacs, so that should even make things easier
>> for him.
>> This is free software, and the ability to fork is what makes sure we
>> are all focused on software, not on personal issues.
>
> No thanks.
>
>> I am not actively looking for a new maintainer right now
>
> I withdraw my offer.  It will be fun to see poeple doing "-1"s.  That
> will be fun.

This is becoming somewhat surreal! But if it gives you pleasure .....



-1

atb

Glyn

Re: Offer for taking over maintainership

[Jambunathan K]

Bastien <bzg@altern.org> writes:

> This is a list to discussion Org-mode.

You can lock me out.  You hold the keys, right.

> To discuss moral aspects of using or contributing to Emacs,
> please use news:alt.religion.emacs
>
> Who knows, you might also end up quoted in emacs/etc/DEVEL.HUMOR,
> which is my own personal Graal.

Go ahead :-).  I have nothing to lose.  You think, I forgot, I could be
in a public forum.  No, I didn't.

Re: Offer for taking over maintainership

[Bastien]

Jambunathan K <kjambunathan@gmail.com> writes:

> Bastien <bzg@altern.org> writes:
>
>> This is a list to discussion Org-mode.
>
> You can lock me out.  You hold the keys, right.

Well, we don't have a habit of kicking people out for their
first few off-topic posts.  I'm confident you will not flood
the list with OT posts.

-- 
 Bastien

Re: Offer for taking over maintainership

[Jambunathan K]

Bastien <bzg@altern.org> writes:

> Actually, one of the reasons I want to step down in the long run is
> that I'm a bit frustrated of not having time enough to focus on big
> new features.  

You are a student of philosophy, aren't you?  Where you put your efforts
is where your allegiances lie.  The rest all is mind playing games.

One slash and you are out of loop.

> But the flow of new users and new contributors is
> rewarding enough so that maintaining Org keeps being fun :)

Rewarding things are no fun, atleast in the doing.  So have I read.

Ever read the story of two wolves.  The wolf that fattens is the wolf
that is fed.  The wolf that dies is the wolf that is starved.

There is low-hanging fruit and some requires climbing up a tree and
there is risk of broken leg.

Ask Nicolas for the fruits out of reach.  Get in to open and see what
they are.  Needless, you don't have to play my game.

You can pander or ponder.  Just saying.
-- 

Re: Offer for taking over maintainership

[Jambunathan K]

Bastien <bzg@altern.org> writes:

> Jambunathan K <kjambunathan@gmail.com> writes:
>
>> Bastien <bzg@altern.org> writes:
>>
>>> This is a list to discussion Org-mode.
>>
>> You can lock me out.  You hold the keys, right.
>
> Well, we don't have a habit of kicking people out for their
> first few off-topic posts.  I'm confident you will not flood
> the list with OT posts.

What post precisely was OT?  

I am calling people's bluffs and I am doing it openly.  They can pretend
it is humor, dismiss me as madman or take a moment to reflect. 

What people have unwittingly done is to expose themselves.  Up the
stakes and people panic.  No better way to understand whats and why of
one's allegiances.

Make good of this discussion.  Stop pandering to the crowd.  Help
Nicolas with his work.

People who want you to be the maintainer want their own problems solved.
They cannot see beyond 10 ft.  True.  Some read self-help books.
-- 

Re: Offer for taking over maintainership

[Jambunathan K]

Glyn Millington <glyn.millington@gmail.com> writes:

> Jambunathan K <kjambunathan@gmail.com> writes:
>
>> Bastien <bzg@altern.org> writes:
>>
>>> Dear all,
>>> Jambunathan (like anyone) is free to fork the code, to build a
>>> community around his fork and to submit his changes to Emacs.  He
>>> has commit access to Emacs, so that should even make things easier
>>> for him.
>>> This is free software, and the ability to fork is what makes sure we
>>> are all focused on software, not on personal issues.
>>
>> No thanks.
>>
>>> I am not actively looking for a new maintainer right now
>>
>> I withdraw my offer.  It will be fun to see poeple doing "-1"s.  That
>> will be fun.
>
> This is becoming somewhat surreal! But if it gives you pleasure .....
>
> -1

I am honored.  LOL.

> atb
>
> Glyn
>
>
>

-- 

Re: Offer for taking over maintainership

[Jambunathan K]

François Pinard <pinard@iro.umontreal.ca> writes:

> Jambunathan K <kjambunathan@gmail.com> writes:
>
>> I offer to take over maintainership of Org.
>
> -1
>
> François
>
> P.S. I love the Org project, and I strongly hope it stay lovable.  The
> human qualities of a maintainer, and the crowd surrounding him/her, are
> very important to me.  In the past, I left projects, languages and even
> duties just to make sure I stay surrounded by nice people.  And I
> succeeded so far, and met many extraordinary people that changed my
> life.  I would be sad if I had to get away from a very satisfying
> project, merely because it stops being a warm place to be.

You fear you will run away.  In the process you chastize me and make me
run away.  I cannot get my head around it.

I never remember being rude to you.

>
>

-- 

Re: Offer for taking over maintainership

[Nicolas Richard]

Jambunathan K <kjambunathan@gmail.com> writes:

> I offer to take over maintainership of Org.

What's your point ? Trolling ? If not, why do you ask questions in a way
that will upset people ? I think it's ok to focus on the code, and focus
on what will make the software better and more efficient for as many
people as possible, but you cannot make an unrealistic offer (don't tell
me you had not foreseen the many negative responses) and then just
somehow say "Too bad for you, I offered to save your souls and you
refused it."

Anyway, considering the current state of the discussion, I think
everybody's time, including yours, is being misused

> Note: Anger is futile, particularly over the internet.

Sure it is ; but you do look angry.

Trying to get back on the topic, IIUC you're saying that the maintainer
should focus on code, while "community management" (e.g. spending a
great amount of time answering on the lists and getting thanked for it)
should be in someone else's hand. Is it what you meant or did I
misinterpret your statements? Maybe you could also elaborate on why you
proposed a takeover instead of collaborating with the current maintainer.

-- 
Nico.

Re: Offer for taking over maintainership

[Jambunathan K]

For the sake of record, I will Footnote what Bastien wrote.  There will
be lots of Footnotes, not one or two.  But I wouldn't alter the article.

Bastien <bzg@altern.org> writes:

> Hi Jonathan,
>
> Jonathan Leech-Pepin <jonathan.leechpepin@gmail.com> writes:
>
>>  Either there's some
>> underlying reason for your apparent dislike for Bastien and his
>> approach to maintaining
>> Org, or some argument in the past that I am not aware of.
>
> For the sake of clarity (and history), here is how I understand why
> Jambunathan thinks I am not a good maintainer: he was frustrated with
> the way I handled the merge of the ODT export feature.
>
> The very first ODT exporter was based on two libraries: org-lparse.el
> and org-xhtml.el.  org-lparse.el implemented a new export engine that
> org-xhtml.el was using to produce HTML, and org-odt.el would build on
> top of both librairies.
>
> This approach was not satisfactory to me.  First, because I found
> org-lparse.el was ugly, mixing the wrong line-by-line approach for
> parsing an Org buffer, and the better "recursive" approach (have a
> look at org-lparse.el to get an idea of whether it is ugly.)  Second,
> because I thought having org-xhtml.el along org-html.el was confusing.
>
> Nicolas already started to work on his new exporter, encouraged by the
> first modest proof of concept I had for the recursive approach.
>
> I took the decision to delay the merge of the ODT exporter until it
> didn't rely on org-xhtml.el anymore, because I thought that relying
> on org-lparse.el for two export formats (HTML and ODT) was a wrong
> move, giving the wrong signal to Nicolas.
>
> When org-xhtml.el was not in the game anymore, and when I was
> confident Nicolas was deeply committed to the new exporter, I went
> with the merge.  I was happy!  I even received kudos from Jambunathan
> when I managed to solve possible copyright issues wrt merging .xml
> files into Emacs (there was a confusion on whether those files were
> copyrighted by OASIS and "mergeable" into Emacs.)
>
> Maybe Jambunathan thought all this was too slow, and based on stupid
> decisions.  He was on a sabbatical year at the time, and had plenty of
> time to work on the exporter and to put the pressure on me.  I was
> maintaining Org in my spare time, and tried to handle the pressure the
> way I could.
>
> I hope this is faithful to the facts -- all this is publicly available
> on this mailing list anyway!
>
>> Regardless, Bastien is doing a fine job from what I can see, he is
>> certainly actively assisting
>> users who post with questions or bugs, even when they occurred during
>> a time where he was
>> absent (with prior notice).  Perhaps he has not contributed to
>> certain aspects as others have,
>> however his presence and monitoring of the smaller aspects does allow
>> for further development
>> to proceed without being interrupted by every issue.
>
> Actually, one of the reasons I want to step down in the long run is
> that I'm a bit frustrated of not having time enough to focus on big
> new features.  But the flow of new users and new contributors is
> rewarding enough so that maintaining Org keeps being fun :)
>
> All best,

-- 

Re: Offer for taking over maintainership

[Jambunathan K]

"Nicolas Richard" <theonewiththeevillook@yahoo.fr> writes:

> but you cannot make an unrealistic offer (don't tell
> me you had not foreseen the many negative responses) and then just
> somehow say "Too bad for you, I offered to save your souls and you
> refused it."

Well, I just did.  How can you openly refuse to believe what just
happened.  Wishful thinking on your part, I should say!

>
> Anyway, considering the current state of the discussion, I think
> everybody's time, including yours, is being misused
>
>> Note: Anger is futile, particularly over the internet.
>
> Sure it is ; but you do look angry.

You should come see me in my apartment, as I type these words.  No one
is having more fun than I am having right now.

> Trying to get back on the topic, IIUC you're saying that the maintainer
> should focus on code, 

(It took some effort to get people to talk, rather than just say
whatever pleases their own ears.  Sigh!)

(Code is vague.  Not just code but important code.)

Yes, do not pick low-hanging fruits.

But tackle difficult ones that no one else will work on.  Nicolas tries
to maintain low profile, but he has single handedly demonstrated that
there is no dearth of opportunities if only some thought and discretion
is exercised.  He has pulled off quite a bit.  Working on difficult
tasks has not been happening for quite some time now, IMNSHO.  I am
willing to be shown wrong.

In any (Free Software) project that I know of, the principals focus on
difficult problems.  There is a development cycle where the focus is on
high-hanging fruits.  Then there is a bug-fix cycle where the focus is
on low-hanging fruits.  One phase usually breaks the monotony of the
other.  There is a clear line that is religiously *not* breached.

I tell once again, Bastien (who calls himself and who others call the
maintainer) has made miniscule contribution to Nicolas efforts.  In the
meanwhile, he was fixing all the other things.  One can always twist the
facts to one's own advantage.  Bastien is plain wrong when he says his
Thankless job helped Nicolas or Jambunathan focus and complete their
work.  What I did with ODT exporter would have been done irrespective of
what Bastien chose to do or not do.  I will even venture to represent
Nicolas and say his framework would have sailed through irrespective of
presence or absence of Bastien.  In truth, Bastien has slowed down the
process and adoption of new exporter framework.  (I am an insider, don't
try to differ with me here.)

I am a developer and an Engineer.  I have natural dislike for what I
consider as mere posturing in others.  I don't like fudging facts to
play with people's perception.

> while "community management" (e.g. spending a great amount of time
> answering on the lists and getting thanked for it) should be in
> someone else's hand. 

This is besides the point.  You place something on the table that is
worth looking at.  This is not even a secondary or tertiary item in what
I tabled.  It's something that each member of the community has to look
at.

I am asking, why cannot people pitch in with patches or offer to write
documentation or help themselves.  Saying "I love you and hugs!", my
"Inbox is filled, Thank you!" is all good and wonderful.  But the
euphoria is plain delusional.  People say "I want the old exporter
back."  "I want documentation on new exporter." "I will not test gamma,
beta or alpha releases.  I want stable releases and I want it to work
flawlessly."  "This is broken in ox-html.el.  Even signed contributors
report a bug, fail to give an ECM or too lazy to fix what is their own
problem."  People want to be spoon fed and then want to pat themselves
on their back saying "I am a good member of community!".  This is
hypocrisy at it's worst.

Interestingly, the only people who have NOT fallen in to the trap I have
laid, are the people who I have immense respect for.  They have their
doubts and find it wise to not say it.  I have respect for sceptics but
no respect for people who are so sure of themselves.

I called the community riffraffs for a reason.  They are in truth
riffsraffs.  

It is also delusional thinking to think that a community can have a say
on who the maintainer could be.  Principals or the circumstances decide
who the maintainer is.  Riffraffs need to read up a bit on how Free
Software communities work and function.

> Is it what you meant or did I misinterpret your statements? Maybe you
> could also elaborate on why you proposed a takeover instead of
> collaborating with the current maintainer.

Not what all you hear or others write is truth.  Reader's discretion is
advised.
-- 

Re: Offer for taking over maintainership

[Jambunathan K]

Another question: Why are people Jambu-bashing and Bastien-hugging when
I have clearly said that Nicolas Goaziou's work has not been duly
recognized.  People are selective about what they want to see or hear.

-- 

Re: Offer for taking over maintainership

[Jambunathan K]

What Free Software needs is contributors and a good outlet.  For
Orgmode, the latter problem is solved because Emacs serves as a good and
well-known and well-respected clearing house.

Recruit more contributors.  Get out of the way of existing
contributors.  Ignore, just plain ignore the riffraff.

I challenge the common understanding of the "importance" of Community.
They don't need to be fed.  They come and stay becauase of their own
interests. 

Searching for and retaining markets is not a problem that a FLOSS
project should focus on.  DTRT and rest is inevitable.

-- 

Re: Offer for taking over maintainership

[Detlef Steuer]

> >> Note: Anger is futile, particularly over the internet.  
> >
> > Sure it is ; but you do look angry.  
> 
> You should come see me in my apartment, as I type these words.  No one
> is having more fun than I am having right now.

If that is true, if this is "fun" for you, then you shall understand
that you are damaging the community with your "fun". Whatever your
problems are: create a fork, but don't troll around here.  

This mailing list is, besides your regular rants against Bastien, one
of the friendliest crowds on the net. 

For me that is important. Everybody is willing to give a helping hand
to each other. Even to someone like me who is completely irrelevant for
the progress of org-mode.

What Carsten created and Bastien continues _every_ day is invaluable for many.
Bastien does a fantastic job as a maintainer. Accept that. 

May be you are the best elisp coder in the world.
If this thread really means having "fun" for you: Look for another
place to enjoy yourself, please!

Detlef

Re: Offer for taking over maintainership

[Julian Burgos]

> I called the community riffraffs for a reason.  They are in truth
> riffsraffs.

I have two post-graduate degrees, but I cannot code in elisp so I guess I
am among the worthless ones (riffraff: 1. People regarded as disreputable
or worthless. 2. Rubbish; trash.).  To be honest, I do not care who you
are or what you contributed to the org community.  But I do not like when
people behave like as important a** holes.  So take a break, go out, have
a beer or two, and relax.  You are not that important.  Nobody is.

-- 
Julian Mariano Burgos, PhD
Hafrannsóknastofnunin/Marine Research Institute
Skúlagata 4, 121 Reykjavík, Iceland
Sími/Telephone : +354-5752037
Bréfsími/Telefax:  +354-5752001
Netfang/Email: julian@hafro.is

Re: Offer for taking over maintainership

[Jambunathan K]

> I have two post-graduate degrees, but I cannot code in elisp so

I am quoting from this article.  

I am wondering, people with two-postgraduate degrees and those with
doctoratal and post-doctoral degrees can do better than secretaries.

,---- http://www.gnu.org/gnu/rms-lisp.html
|
| The editor itself was written entirely in Lisp. Multics Emacs proved
| to be a great success — programming new editing commands was so
| convenient that even the secretaries in his office started learning
| how to use it. They used a manual someone had written which showed how
| to extend Emacs, but didn't say it was a programming. So the
| secretaries, who believed they couldn't do programming, weren't scared
| off. They read the manual, discovered they could do useful things and
| they learned to program.
|
`----

Offer for taking over maintainership

[Jose E. Marchesi]

I offer to take over maintainership of Org, gcc, and the Linux kernel.

Offer closes in 7 days.  Only pre-conditions will be that Org gets
ported to Notepad, gcc to be turned into a llvm front-end and Linus
sodomized to death.  All that under my supervision.

Principals and idiots can PM me with your thoughts.  I defend your
right to eat pizza everyday and to make espressos freely.

Note: Fear leads to anger; anger leads to hate; hate leads to the dark
side.
-- 

Re: Offer for taking over maintainership

[Allen S. Rout]

On 02/14/2013 10:36 AM, Jose E. Marchesi wrote:
> 
> Note: Fear leads to anger; anger leads to hate; hate leads to the dark
> side.
> 

Hate leads to suffering.  Get it right.

Was that a shark we just jumped over?

On 02/13/2013 04:31 PM, Allen S. Rout wrote:
>
> It would probably be most peaceful not to discuss Jambunathan's offer on
> this forum.   I expect that the count of +1s to the offer will
> communicate the list's collective opinion.
>

No, really.

- Allen S. Rout

Re: Offer for taking over maintainership

[François Pinard]

Bastien <bzg@altern.org> writes:

> Actually, one of the reasons I want to step down in the long run is
> that I'm a bit frustrated of not having time enough to focus on big
> new features.  But the flow of new users and new contributors is
> rewarding enough so that maintaining Org keeps being fun :)

A good maintainer, in my opinion, does not necessarily have to be the
main contributor in term of code or features.  I more expecting him (or
her) to have good judgment and take "equilibrated" decisions, meant to
protect the overall spirit of a project and to nudge it in a sound
direction.  And of course, to have high human and communication skills.

A maintainer who always says "yes!" and consider himself (or herself) as
nothing more than a "committer" of service is likely to soon drive a
project into a drab status.  Behind anything nice, software included,
there needs to be an artist and a mind, much more than a committee.  And
almost always, an artwork never fully pleases everybody.

François

Re: Offer for taking over maintainership

[François Pinard]

Jambunathan K <kjambunathan@gmail.com> writes:

> I never remember being rude to you.

I do not remember you've ever been rude with me.  It's not personal.

It's just that I would like Org to return to its peaceful and happy
road.  You announced in some earlier message that you were unsubscribing
from the list.  Another avenue would be to rediscover what it is to be
joyful.  Either way, I wish you'll be successful at censoring yourself.

Surely, it's a bit naive for me to think I could calm a flaming mind.
I've met others in my life, and usually *completely* ignore them.  I'm
replying here only because of this tiny bit of admiration that still
remains in me from your previous works and involvement.  When nothing
will remain, I'll very easily return to silence.

François

Re: Offer for taking over maintainership

[Jambunathan K]

Dear Jose E Marchesi

I am happy to hear of your endeavors.  I am publicly messaging you in my
capacity as a well-known and well-recognized idiot [1].

I am myself running an experiment very similar to yours, albeit on a
smaller scale.

The tasks you have taken upon yourself seem to be big, but remember, no
task is big for the determined.  I should applaud your braveness and
courage.  

I am inclined to share the following notes with you.

I would advise you to tread carefully on the third task.  You are likely
to have better chances of success if you could make discreet make
enquiries with the local church and law enforcement beforehand.
Remember you have to be very discreet, for the task is delicate and the
target is a celebrity dictator notorious for acerbic tongue.  (Of the
nature of his bottoms, I am not sure.)

I know first hand that the first task is currently appropriated by a
gentlemen named Bastien.  The said gentleman has won applauds for his
patience, stay-put-ness, well-mannered-isms and courteous and prompt
service.  (There detractors and nay-sayers but you can safely ignore
them.)  You may want to check the status after few weeks or months or
years.  You don't have to be disappointed with the loss of opportunity
and discouraged by a door slammed shut.  You can gain easy entry, if you
explore your luck as "a temp", as it is well-known that the said
gnetleman is in the habit of being away for 2-3 weeks at a stretch (on
some presumably important personal errands).  The time-aways are
promptly announced in the mailing list.  The period of leaves usually
varies and invariably extends by few days to few weeks than the
disclosed period.  (I pray that you treat the last piece of information
with confidence.  I trust your good self not to reveal it to others -
even the near and dear ones - the source of this little nugget of
information)

Seond task seems the most easiest of the three.  I have a friend who has
rat, cat and dog as pets, all adorable, who habit his house in peace.  

An apple a day, keeps the doctor away.  Stay healthy and all the best
with your endeavours.

Footnotes:

[1]  Don't hesitate to ask for references.  The references are
     respectable gentlemen working for various research institutes.

Your well-wisher,
Jambunathan K.

jemarch@gnu.org (Jose E. Marchesi) writes:

> I offer to take over maintainership of Org, gcc, and the Linux kernel.
>
> Offer closes in 7 days.  Only pre-conditions will be that Org gets
> ported to Notepad, gcc to be turned into a llvm front-end and Linus
> sodomized to death.  All that under my supervision.
>
> Principals and idiots can PM me with your thoughts.  I defend your
> right to eat pizza everyday and to make espressos freely.
>
> Note: Fear leads to anger; anger leads to hate; hate leads to the dark
> side.

-- 

Re: Offer for taking over maintainership

[Carsten Dominik]

Hi everyone,

may I suggest that we dry up this thread and the related threads?  It seems to me that what needed to be said has been said and we should stop providing an arena for a monologue that has become full OT by now.

- Carsten

Re: Offer for taking over maintainership

[Jambunathan K]

Carsten

I opened this thread and I will have the last word. 

I *guarantee* you, I would have taken up the maintainership.  I seem to
be a lone dissenting voice which also wanted to *take up* responsibility
in a substantial manner at a throwaway price.

I had every right to make the restrictions that I made on the deal.  You
should thank me for saving people from themselves.

Jonathan was the lone saving grace and I should applaud him for
balanced-ness he has shown.

Jambunathan K.
-- 

Re: Offer for taking over maintainership

[Jambunathan K]

Jambunathan K <kjambunathan@gmail.com> writes:

> Jonathan was the lone saving grace and I should applaud him for
> balanced-ness he has shown.

Also Nicolas Richard.