How do you manage complex project with Org-mode

How do you manage complex project with Org-mode

[Sébastien Gendre]

Hello,

I don't know if it's the correct place to ask it. If not, sorry to ask in
the wrong place.

How do you manage complex project with Org-mode ?

I used Org-mode for several periods of time in recent years. It worked
very well for short and day to day tasks. When only a few of theme have
deadlines and when you have plenty of time to do them.

But, as a student, I regularly have big and important projects to do for
the school. The kind of project who need several days to be done, with
deadlines too soon, and if you fail one them the consequences can be
disastrous. And generally, I have to many of these project in the same
time and not enough time to do all the work. So, I also need to follow
the progress of each project to choose which is sufficiently advanced to
be stop for the benefit of another less advanced project.

And I don't know how to manage this kind of projects with Org-mode. How
to do it, without failing a 6 days project because I spent to much time
on something else and I have only 3 days left with 3 half-day important
appointment I cannot cancel. I can't risk failing a single one of these
project by trying. So, when I am in a period with a lot of these
projects, I stop using Org-mode and concentrate on doing these project
as fast as I can. And because I often have this kind of project, I spend
most of the year without being able to use Org-mode.

So, if you have any suggestion on how to manage, in Org-mode, projects
with:
* Lot of work to do (many days)
* Short deadline (not enough time)
* High importance (disastrous consequences in my future in case of fail)
* Many of them in the same time
* Progression need to be followed to chose where to sacrifice time to
  limit the damages

I will be happy to read them. :)


Best regards

-----
Seb

Re: How do you manage complex project with Org-mode

[Matt]

 ---- On Mon, 28 Feb 2022 20:43:47 -0500 Sébastien Gendre <seb@k-7.ch> wrote ----

 > And I don't know how to manage this kind of projects with Org-mode. How
 > to do it, without failing a 6 days project because I spent to much time
 > on something else and I have only 3 days left with 3 half-day important
 > appointment I cannot cancel. I can't risk failing a single one of these
 > project by trying. So, when I am in a period with a lot of these
 > projects, I stop using Org-mode and concentrate on doing these project
 > as fast as I can. And because I often have this kind of project, I spend
 > most of the year without being able to use Org-mode.

It sounds like you have a lot going on!  If none of what you need to do explicitly requires Org, you may have to scale back what you learn about Org to fit the time you've got. Give yourself permission to accept that the time you have right now for Org isn't what you want. (I hope that's because you're learning lots of other cool things in school.)  In situations like these, I like to do just a little each day. Maybe that means reading one paragraph a night before bed.  It sounds like you're really excited about Org.  (If you are, you've come to the right place. The people here love Org :) Reading about Org would be something fun to look forward to each night. You might be surprised at how motivating that one little paragraph can be! Working through the manual in this way will give you a good overview of how Org can be used and what you personally might use Org it for.

 > So, if you have any suggestion on how to manage, in Org-mode, projects
 > with:
 > * Lot of work to do (many days)
 > * Short deadline (not enough time)
 > * High importance (disastrous consequences in my future in case of fail)
 > * Many of them in the same time
 > * Progression need to be followed to chose where to sacrifice time to
 >   limit the damages
 > 
 > I will be happy to read them. :)

My suggestion is to not try something new on anything that has a tight deadline. Org is new to you and learning things takes time. This is all normal. Life will throw a lot at you.  Some times all I get is 20 minutes at the end of the day.  Some days, I get nothing at all. This is because I've filled my life with other cool things, like a partner, a house, friends, etc. If I get to spend some time doing something I think is worthwhile (like trying to help a fellow Org enthusiast), that's time well spent in my book.

Isn't there some saying that goes like, "every avalance starts as a snowflake?" Read a little, experiment a little, and over time, you'll be surprised at how much you've learned. You'll get there!  

Re: How do you manage complex project with Org-mode

[Eric Abrahamsen]

Sébastien Gendre <seb@k-7.ch> writes:

> Hello,
>
> I don't know if it's the correct place to ask it. If not, sorry to ask in
> the wrong place.
>
> How do you manage complex project with Org-mode ?
>
> I used Org-mode for several periods of time in recent years. It worked
> very well for short and day to day tasks. When only a few of theme have
> deadlines and when you have plenty of time to do them.
>
> But, as a student, I regularly have big and important projects to do for
> the school. The kind of project who need several days to be done, with
> deadlines too soon, and if you fail one them the consequences can be
> disastrous. And generally, I have to many of these project in the same
> time and not enough time to do all the work. So, I also need to follow
> the progress of each project to choose which is sufficiently advanced to
> be stop for the benefit of another less advanced project.
>
> And I don't know how to manage this kind of projects with Org-mode. How
> to do it, without failing a 6 days project because I spent to much time
> on something else and I have only 3 days left with 3 half-day important
> appointment I cannot cancel. I can't risk failing a single one of these
> project by trying. So, when I am in a period with a lot of these
> projects, I stop using Org-mode and concentrate on doing these project
> as fast as I can. And because I often have this kind of project, I spend
> most of the year without being able to use Org-mode.
>
> So, if you have any suggestion on how to manage, in Org-mode, projects
> with:
> * Lot of work to do (many days)
> * Short deadline (not enough time)
> * High importance (disastrous consequences in my future in case of fail)
> * Many of them in the same time
> * Progression need to be followed to chose where to sacrifice time to
>   limit the damages

Interesting questions! I have the same general problem of, when things
heat up too much, I stop using the Org agenda. It's quite the opposite
of how it's supposed to work, but I guess it's something about human
psychology. I'll be interested to see what people say in this thread.

Some suggestions that come to mind:

- Create custom agenda views for each project, providing an overview of
  that project only, but use a single unified agenda view for each day's
  schedule. Look at the per-project agenda to decide if/how to complete
  it, but draw the action items into the unified schedule when deciding
  how to spend your day. It should become evident pretty quickly what
  you actually have time for. Projects are many, but there is only one
  of you.
- Maybe consider using `org-trigger-hook' and `org-blocker-hook' to cut
  down on TODO overwhelm.
- Use time estimates and then TODO clocking to more swiftly disabuse
  yourself of unrealistic expectations. This plus a schedule agenda can
  also help you make sure you stop work at a reasonable time and go do
  something else.
- Say no to more work :) Looking at your solid-packed agenda for the
  next day works wonders for saying no.

Good luck!

Re: How do you manage complex project with Org-mode

[Dr. Arne Babenhauserheide]

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Hello Seb,

It sounds like org-mode can be a great fit.

Sébastien Gendre <seb@k-7.ch> writes:
> But, as a student, I regularly have big and important projects to do for
> the school. The kind of project who need several days to be done, with
> deadlines too soon, and if you fail one them the consequences can be
> disastrous. And generally, I have to many of these project in the same
> time and not enough time to do all the work. So, I also need to follow
> the progress of each project to choose which is sufficiently advanced to
> be stop for the benefit of another less advanced project.

Do I understand it right that what you need is to track the time
required to reach milestones, not following the *progress*? So following
progress seems like it would take more mental bandwidth than needed.

You could have one org-mode task (headline) per milestone, with a
DEADLINE (org-deadline), and then SCHEDULE (org-schedule) appointments.

To track how much time you will still need, you can use org-set-effort.
I did that at work for a while to train to get better at estimating. By
having the effort in a clocktable I could see progress *when needed*.
Hitting R in the org-agenda shows the clockreport-mode and you can see
the Effort in the agenda by setting
(org-agenda-clockreport-parameter-plist (quote (:link t :maxlevel 2
:properties ("Effort")))). For a while I had the clocktable active by
default.

You can also add that to the column-mode (org-columns) to get a quick
overview for a file (leave with org-columns-quit). Customize:
(org-columns-default-format
   "%25ITEM %TODO %3PRIORITY %TAGS %17Effort(Estimated Effort){:} %CLOCKSUM")

> And I don't know how to manage this kind of projects with Org-mode. How
> to do it, without failing a 6 days project because I spent to much time
> on something else and I have only 3 days left with 3 half-day important
> appointment I cannot cancel. I can't risk failing a single one of these
> project by trying. So, when I am in a period with a lot of these
> projects, I stop using Org-mode and concentrate on doing these project
> as fast as I can. And because I often have this kind of project, I spend
> most of the year without being able to use Org-mode.

I found that org-mode is the only organization tool for which using the
tool actually reduces the time I need for organization. That works by
taking notes in org-mode, too, and keeping it simple.

What I do:

** Custom starting point: agenda-with-kanban
  A function to show the agenda it besides the Kanban table. I start
  each day and after each larger break by hitting F12. It shows me the
  agenda and entry points into my work. This enables me to stay focussed.

** One planning file
  I have a single file for all my tasks. That keeps working
  surprisingly long. Once a year or so it needs some cleanup to become
  faster again.

** Kanban Table at the top
  I have a kanban table. It shows as most important information the
  tasks I am doing right now. If I am doing more than three work-tasks
  at the same time, it’s warning sign that I’m becoming inefficient.
  With this I start every day in org-mode by clicking on the link of the
  project from the kanban table to get to its notes (which I also track
  in org-mode). See
  https://www.draketo.de/light/english/free-software/el-kanban-org-table
  → https://hg.sr.ht/~arnebab/kanban.el

** Capture tasks for Projects
  Projects have as many tasks as I need to track. At work they are
  usually Stories (3-5 days). Nowadays I create new tasks by using
  org-capture templates with one template per larger project and one for
  bugs, but I used to just use two templates (which might be a
  better fit for you):
  - (i) task to start immediately and
  - (l) task to start later

** Setup

(with-eval-after-load 'org
  (setq org-agenda-custom-commands
        '(("o" "Agenda and TODOs"
           ((agenda) ; nil ((org-agenda-compact-blocks nil)(org-agenda-block-separator ?-)(org-agenda-overriding-header "")))
            (tags-todo "-notodo-TERMIN" ((org-agenda-block-separator ?-)))
	        (tags "KANBAN" ((org-agenda-block-separator ?-)
                            (org-agenda-compact-blocks nil)
                            (org-agenda-overriding-header ""))))))))
  (defun my/org-agenda-show-kanban ()
  (interactive)
  (save-excursion
    (search-forward ":KANBAN:")
    (org-agenda-goto)
    (org-narrow-to-subtree)
    (show-all)
    (fit-window-to-buffer)
    (widen)
    (recenter-top-bottom 0)))

(defun agenda-and-todo ()
  (interactive)
  (org-agenda nil "o")
  (delete-other-windows)
  (my/org-agenda-show-kanban)
;;      desktop systemsettings shortcuts: map f12 to
;;        emacsclient -e '(progn (show-frame)(agenda-and-todo))'
(global-set-key (kbd "<f12>") 'agenda-and-todo)



> So, if you have any suggestion on how to manage, in Org-mode, projects
> with:
> * Lot of work to do (many days)
> * Short deadline (not enough time)

This is something to fix. Also outside org. Always feeling like having
to catch-up can burn you out otherwise.

As an analogy: Even if you have to sprint sometimes, what you really
want to do is to take a brisk walk, so you can still talk to your fellow
students and think about the best way to address the tasks — do things
well thought-out.

> * High importance (disastrous consequences in my future in case of fail)
> * Many of them in the same time
> * Progression need to be followed to chose where to sacrifice time to
>   limit the damages

Ideally have a plan beforehand which things to drop when time becomes
tight. For example tag them or such. These are optional, otherwise you
could not drop them when times becomes tight.



(also I have a nicer clocktable layout so level2-entries look good:

;; nicer org clocktable layout
(defun my-org-clocktable-indent-string (level)
  (if (= level 1)
      ""
    (let ((str "└"))
      (while (> level 2)
        (setq level (1- level)
              str (concat str "──")))
      (concat str "─> "))))
(advice-add 'org-clocktable-indent-string :override #'my-org-clocktable-indent-string)
)

Here’s the relevant part of my org-agenda setup:

(use-package org-agenda
  :defer 8
  :custom
  ;; provide desktop alerts, so I can have appointments in org-mode, too
  (alert-default-style 'libnotify)
  (appt-disp-window-function 'alert-for-appt)
  (org-agenda-include-diary t)
  (appt-delete-window-function (lambda ()))
  (org-agenda-clockreport-parameter-plist (quote (:link t :maxlevel 2 :properties ("Effort"))))
  (org-columns-default-format
   "%25ITEM %TODO %3PRIORITY %TAGS %17Effort(Estimated Effort){:} %CLOCKSUM")
  (org-global-properties
   '(("Effort_ALL" . "0:30 1:00 2:00 3:00 6:00 8:00 16:00 40:00")))
  (org-agenda-start-with-clockreport-mode t)
  :config
  ;; Rebuild the reminders everytime the agenda is displayed
  (add-hook 'org-agenda-finalize-hook (lambda () (org-agenda-to-appt t)))
  ;; Run once when Emacs starts
  (org-agenda-to-appt t)
  ;; Activate appointments so we get notifications
  (appt-activate t)
  (defun appt-reparse-diary-file ()
    "force reparsing the diary file"
    (appt-check t))
  (add-to-list 'midnight-hook 'appt-reparse-diary-file))


Best wishes,
Arne
-- 
Unpolitisch sein
heißt politisch sein,
ohne es zu merken.
draketo.de

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Re: How do you manage complex project with Org-mode

[Tim Cross]

Sébastien Gendre <seb@k-7.ch> writes:

> Hello,
>
> I don't know if it's the correct place to ask it. If not, sorry to ask in
> the wrong place.
>

I think it is the correct place. This is a list for general org mode
discussions. Such discussions can be technical or about how to use org mode.

> How do you manage complex project with Org-mode ?
>
> I used Org-mode for several periods of time in recent years. It worked
> very well for short and day to day tasks. When only a few of theme have
> deadlines and when you have plenty of time to do them.
>
> But, as a student, I regularly have big and important projects to do for
> the school. The kind of project who need several days to be done, with
> deadlines too soon, and if you fail one them the consequences can be
> disastrous. And generally, I have to many of these project in the same
> time and not enough time to do all the work. So, I also need to follow
> the progress of each project to choose which is sufficiently advanced to
> be stop for the benefit of another less advanced project.
>
> And I don't know how to manage this kind of projects with Org-mode. How
> to do it, without failing a 6 days project because I spent to much time
> on something else and I have only 3 days left with 3 half-day important
> appointment I cannot cancel. I can't risk failing a single one of these
> project by trying. So, when I am in a period with a lot of these
> projects, I stop using Org-mode and concentrate on doing these project
> as fast as I can. And because I often have this kind of project, I spend
> most of the year without being able to use Org-mode.
>

The first thing I would say is that org mode is NOT going to solve your
problems of too many tasks with competing priorities in too short a time
period or mitigate the impact from missed deadlines etc. In fact, no
project management software can do this.

Org mode is merely a tool which can help you manage tasks, deadlines,
schedules, priorities and project information. It can help you track
your tasks so fewer are overlooked/forgotten, it can help you manage
your deadlines and scheduling of time and it can help you manage
priorities and provide you with an overview of things that can alert you
to issues earlier, allowing for a wider range of mitigation
strategies. However, it is just a tool and how well you use that tool
will come down to experience and self discipline.


> So, if you have any suggestion on how to manage, in Org-mode, projects
> with:
> * Lot of work to do (many days)
> * Short deadline (not enough time)
> * High importance (disastrous consequences in my future in case of fail)
> * Many of them in the same time
> * Progression need to be followed to chose where to sacrifice time to
>   limit the damages
>

That list is almost an exact match for the job criteria on the last job
I applied for, which highlights the point these are individual skills
which need to be learned, primarily through experience and not something
which can be solved by a software tool. Such tools can help ensure
things don't fall through the gaps during busy stressful projects, can
help you assess how much work needs to be done and where corners will
need to be cut or deadlines changed, scope reduced or quality
decreased. At some point, you have to make a call as to what you will
manage in your org-mode files. Too much or too detailed and too much
time will be spent gathering and managing the data. Too little or
insufficient detail and decisions on what has to be sacrificed are
likely to be misguided or wrong. Unfortunately, there is no formula to
calculate this. It will depend on the environment, types of projects and
individual experience and preferences.

The key to using org mode to manage projects is largely about
incremental refinement. You start by defining a plan on how to use org
mode, you then implement that plan and start using it. You then review
how well it is working at some point and take the experience to that
point, both positive and negative, into a new cycle, starting with a new
plan (refined plan), implement, use review and continue this cycle
(probably indefinitely, but likely with longer cycles).

In general, I would recommend the following

- Start simple. Don't try to do everything all at once. Org is extremely
  flexible with a lot of built-in functionality. Trying to use all of it
  all at once is likely going to make it a burden rather than an aid.

- Start with a default org-mode configuration. A mistake I've seen
  people make many times is to immediately start by configuring new and
  complicated TODO states or complicated capture templates or extensive
  tag hierarchies and complex priority levels. Avoid the temptation to
  over engineer your requirements. Use the default configuration for a
  time and then evaluate things and decide where to make some small
  changes.

- Don't let the tail wag the dog. Remember, org mode is there to make
  your life easier. If you find your now spending all your time trying
  to capture tasks, set priorities, clock in/out of tasks, fill in
  capture templates etc, your doing it wrong. Org mode should be saving
  you time, not consuming it.

- Be broad in your research. When trying to develop a better way to
  manage your projects/workflow/tasks, don't just look at how people do
  it in org. Look at more general solutions and then see how org can be
  used to support whatever approach you want to use. For example, many
  people like the Getting Things Done (GTD) approach, others prefer an
  approach based on Agile project management methodologies and others
  use org mode based on a PRINC2 PM model.

- Don't try to put all your projects into org at once. Pick a project
  and use org to manage it. This will be your initial test case. The
  project which will help you learn about org mode and apply your
  project management sills using org mode as your primary management
  tool.

My own approach is probably best described as a hybrid or maybe
Frankenstein model. I have cherry picked bits from various approaches to
come up with something that works for me. It probably wouldn't work for
anyone else, but I find it has improved my ability to get projects done,
to track the critical information associated with a project and reduce
the number of tasks I overlook or forget. It took me a while to get to
this point and there were a fair number of mistakes made on the
way. Many of my original tweaks and configuration changes have been
removed and my setup is probably closer to a default configuration than
it ever has been before.

The main objectives for my own configuration were

- Make it easy to capture information and deal with it later. When your
  working on a task, other things will intrude and work to distract
  you. I try to minimise these by having a minimal set of capture
  templates which will allow me to capture some bit of information, some
  random, but possibly important idea, some phone call from a client, a
  task my wife wants done etc., which will be captured into a file which
  I will go through later. This allows me to get back to what I'm trying
  to focus on with minimal distraction.

- Keep active tasks to a minimum. There is no point having a task list
  with hundreds of entries to select from when your trying to decide
  what to do next. So many tasks will cause stress and make it difficult
  to decide which tasks should be worked on next. I treat my list of
  tasks in a TODO state as my backlog of tasks. Many of them will
  probably never be acted upon. Every fortnight or so, I will go through
  the list and flag some as 'NEXT' tasks. The aim is to ensure there are
  sufficient STARTED and NEXT tasks to keep me fully allocated for the
  next 'sprint'. When I start a task, its state moves from NEXT to
  STARTED. It will then transition to DONE, DELEGATED, HOLD or CANCELLED
  as necessary. Only tasks wiht a STARTED/NEXT/HOLD state appear in my
  agenda. Typically, there are never more than 10 tasks in a
  STARTED/NEXT state.

- When working, I use a pmodoro approach. I work in 20 - 40 minute
  periods with a 5 minute break between periods and a 15 minute break
  after every 3 or 4 periods. During a period, I will not respond to or
  read email, will not answer the phone and will pretty much ignore
  everything except the task I'm working on.

- I always check in and check out when I'm working on a task. This is
  partially because I want to track where I'm spending time, but mainly
  to help me improve my effort estimation skills. The ability to make
  accurate effort estimations is an important skill, but one which is
  hard to develop. Comparing effort estimates with actual completion
  effort can help improve effort estimate reliability.

- I tend to only use SCHEDULED times for things which have a definite
  scheduled time (like a meeting) and only use DEADLINE when there is a
  real and definite deadline. I sometimes use priorities, but not often
  and only use the standard #A, #B and #C. I don't see the point in
  having more than 3 levels of priority.

Re: How do you manage complex project with Org-mode

[Antonio Carlos Padoan Junior]

Hello,

I'm not sure if I will help you with my advice, but I really appreciate
to use taskjuggler mixed with org-mode. There is somewhere in the web an
org-exporter to taskjuggler. I think recently a topic on this matter
appeared in this list.

Taskjuggler can help you optimizing complex plannings and can be used in a
professional context.

For sure you will need to invest some time on it but it is a good
middle-term investment.

Good luck,
--
Antonio Carlos PADOAN JUNIOR
GPG fingerprint:
243F 237F 2DD3 4DCA 4EA3  1341 2481 90F9 B421 A6C9

Re: How do you manage complex project with Org-mode

[Milan Zamazal]

>>>>> "SG" == Sébastien Gendre <seb@k-7.ch> writes:

    SG> But, as a student, I regularly have big and important projects
    SG> to do for the school. The kind of project who need several days
    SG> to be done, with deadlines too soon, and if you fail one them
    SG> the consequences can be disastrous. And generally, I have to
    SG> many of these project in the same time and not enough time to do
    SG> all the work. So, I also need to follow the progress of each
    SG> project to choose which is sufficiently advanced to be stop for
    SG> the benefit of another less advanced project.

    SG> And I don't know how to manage this kind of projects with
    SG> Org-mode. How to do it, without failing a 6 days project because
    SG> I spent to much time on something else and I have only 3 days
    SG> left with 3 half-day important appointment I cannot cancel. I
    SG> can't risk failing a single one of these project by trying. So,
    SG> when I am in a period with a lot of these projects, I stop using
    SG> Org-mode and concentrate on doing these project as fast as I
    SG> can. And because I often have this kind of project, I spend most
    SG> of the year without being able to use Org-mode.

Hi, I’d join the suggestion to keep things simple in the beginning.  My
task flow is different from yours but in order not to miss really
important things, I use the following:

- Deadlines, with longer in-advance warnings when needed (e.g. “-3w” in
  DEADLINE).

- I use priority A for and only for stuff that is on risk of really bad
  consequences if not handled ASAP.  And I schedule such stuff to a
  future date if it doesn’t make sense to work on it now for any reason.

As for progress, I’d say that if you don’t know how far are you with
your short-term tasks and which of them require attention currently then
you might have a problem with your workflow.  Maybe you are too
overloaded or you don’t split your time among the tasks appropriately.
Org mode is a good tool to implement support for different workflows but
cannot help if a used workflow doesn’t work very well for you.  Again,
starting simple with Org mode and paying attention first to how you work
and how it could be improved generally might be a good idea (and a
life-long process for many of us).

Regards,
Milan

Re: How do you manage complex project with Org-mode

[Quiliro Ordóñez]

Hello Seb.

It is great that you want to use org for your planning.  It is the best
tool I know of.  Tim's advice sounds the best introductory one and
others even gave you advanced advice.  Nevertheless, you never told us
how you use org and why it takes so much time for you.  Perhaps you
could take less time to plan and more time to do, without completely
trashing the planning.  Then you could increment the planning until it
proves to be more time consuming.  At that point you can reduce a little
planning again.  It is a tuning process.

Happy Hacking!

Quiliro

Re: How do you manage complex project with Org-mode

[Sébastien Gendre]

Hello Matt,

Thanks for your reply and advice. :)

I already use Org-mode since a few years and it work great with little
tasks. Tasks that take a few hours maximum. My workflow is GTD, or
something very close (I'm not an expert of this subject).

My concern was more for school works that need many days. I don't want
to see, too late, on my agenda, a work to do. Like seeing 3 days before
the deadline that I need to do a 5 days work. It never append because,
when I got a lot to do for school, I stop using Org-mode to don't take
the risk. So, in reality, I don't know if it will append. Maybe it's an
irrational fear. But, because I often got a lot of work to do for school,
I spend a lot of time not using Org-mode.


Matt <matt@excalamus.com> writes:

>  ---- On Mon, 28 Feb 2022 20:43:47 -0500 Sébastien Gendre <seb@k-7.ch> wrote ----
>
>  > And I don't know how to manage this kind of projects with Org-mode. How
>  > to do it, without failing a 6 days project because I spent to much time
>  > on something else and I have only 3 days left with 3 half-day important
>  > appointment I cannot cancel. I can't risk failing a single one of these
>  > project by trying. So, when I am in a period with a lot of these
>  > projects, I stop using Org-mode and concentrate on doing these project
>  > as fast as I can. And because I often have this kind of project, I spend
>  > most of the year without being able to use Org-mode.
>
> It sounds like you have a lot going on! If none of what you need to do
> explicitly requires Org, you may have to scale back what you learn
> about Org to fit the time you've got. Give yourself permission to
> accept that the time you have right now for Org isn't what you want.
> (I hope that's because you're learning lots of other cool things in
> school.) In situations like these, I like to do just a little each
> day. Maybe that means reading one paragraph a night before bed. It
> sounds like you're really excited about Org. (If you are, you've come
> to the right place. The people here love Org :) Reading about Org
> would be something fun to look forward to each night. You might be
> surprised at how motivating that one little paragraph can be! Working
> through the manual in this way will give you a good overview of how
> Org can be used and what you personally might use Org it for.
>
>  > So, if you have any suggestion on how to manage, in Org-mode, projects
>  > with:
>  > * Lot of work to do (many days)
>  > * Short deadline (not enough time)
>  > * High importance (disastrous consequences in my future in case of fail)
>  > * Many of them in the same time
>  > * Progression need to be followed to chose where to sacrifice time to
>  >   limit the damages
>  > 
>  > I will be happy to read them. :)
>
> My suggestion is to not try something new on anything that has a tight
> deadline. Org is new to you and learning things takes time. This is
> all normal. Life will throw a lot at you. Some times all I get is 20
> minutes at the end of the day. Some days, I get nothing at all. This
> is because I've filled my life with other cool things, like a partner,
> a house, friends, etc. If I get to spend some time doing something I
> think is worthwhile (like trying to help a fellow Org enthusiast),
> that's time well spent in my book.
>
> Isn't there some saying that goes like, "every avalance starts as a snowflake?" Read a little, experiment a little, and over time, you'll be surprised at how much you've learned. You'll get there!  

Re: How do you manage complex project with Org-mode

[Sébastien Gendre]

Hello Arne,

Thank you for your reply and advice. :)

"Dr. Arne Babenhauserheide" <arne_bab@web.de> writes:
> Do I understand it right that what you need is to track the time
> required to reach milestones, not following the *progress*?

Well, what I want by "follow the progress" is to see:

* How many work I have done
* How many work remains to be done
* How many time left
* How many time other project need

I want to avoid spending to much time on a project sufficiently finished
to the detriment of another project. Or, if no project can be finished,
do enough of work to have a not so bad grade.

As you suggest, having milestone with their own deadline seems to be a
great idea. A better idea that having one big task for representing an
entire project (like I wanted to do). I will try using effort
estimation. But I will avoid customizing too much Org-mode. In the past,
I ended up several times with a too much complex workflow.

I think I will make a "Project" workflow. Something simple:

* Each project is a headline with the status "PROJECT"
* Each project have the deadline defined by the school work deadline
* Each project have a complete description with every info needed to work
* Each project have one or many tasks (as sub headlines with a status)
* Each task have a importance, time and effort estimation
* Each task have its own deadline, distributed along the remaining time
* When I set a task deadline, I look at its estimations and also other projects tasks
* To create a new project, I use Org-capture with a template

Every time I create a new project, it start with one task: "Planning the
project". With a deadline at 2 days max. The description of this task is
a checkbox list of thing to do when planning the project.

And finally, 2 times per week, I got a repetitive task: "Review the
projects progress". With this, I should be able to adjust spending time
and effort.

I think it would be simple and need only a few Org-mode configurations.
And by doing like that, every time I look at the agenda, I will see what
work I need to do every days. Task of each project or review of all
projects.



"Dr. Arne Babenhauserheide" <arne_bab@web.de> writes:

> [[PGP Signed Part:Undecided]]
> Hello Seb,
>
> It sounds like org-mode can be a great fit.
>
> Sébastien Gendre <seb@k-7.ch> writes:
>> But, as a student, I regularly have big and important projects to do for
>> the school. The kind of project who need several days to be done, with
>> deadlines too soon, and if you fail one them the consequences can be
>> disastrous. And generally, I have to many of these project in the same
>> time and not enough time to do all the work. So, I also need to follow
>> the progress of each project to choose which is sufficiently advanced to
>> be stop for the benefit of another less advanced project.
>
> Do I understand it right that what you need is to track the time
> required to reach milestones, not following the *progress*? So following
> progress seems like it would take more mental bandwidth than needed.
>
> You could have one org-mode task (headline) per milestone, with a
> DEADLINE (org-deadline), and then SCHEDULE (org-schedule) appointments.
>
> To track how much time you will still need, you can use org-set-effort.
> I did that at work for a while to train to get better at estimating. By
> having the effort in a clocktable I could see progress *when needed*.
> Hitting R in the org-agenda shows the clockreport-mode and you can see
> the Effort in the agenda by setting
> (org-agenda-clockreport-parameter-plist (quote (:link t :maxlevel 2
> :properties ("Effort")))). For a while I had the clocktable active by
> default.
>
> You can also add that to the column-mode (org-columns) to get a quick
> overview for a file (leave with org-columns-quit). Customize:
> (org-columns-default-format
>    "%25ITEM %TODO %3PRIORITY %TAGS %17Effort(Estimated Effort){:} %CLOCKSUM")
>
>> And I don't know how to manage this kind of projects with Org-mode. How
>> to do it, without failing a 6 days project because I spent to much time
>> on something else and I have only 3 days left with 3 half-day important
>> appointment I cannot cancel. I can't risk failing a single one of these
>> project by trying. So, when I am in a period with a lot of these
>> projects, I stop using Org-mode and concentrate on doing these project
>> as fast as I can. And because I often have this kind of project, I spend
>> most of the year without being able to use Org-mode.
>
> I found that org-mode is the only organization tool for which using the
> tool actually reduces the time I need for organization. That works by
> taking notes in org-mode, too, and keeping it simple.
>
> What I do:
>
> ** Custom starting point: agenda-with-kanban
>   A function to show the agenda it besides the Kanban table. I start
>   each day and after each larger break by hitting F12. It shows me the
>   agenda and entry points into my work. This enables me to stay focussed.
>
> ** One planning file
>   I have a single file for all my tasks. That keeps working
>   surprisingly long. Once a year or so it needs some cleanup to become
>   faster again.
>
> ** Kanban Table at the top
>   I have a kanban table. It shows as most important information the
>   tasks I am doing right now. If I am doing more than three work-tasks
>   at the same time, it’s warning sign that I’m becoming inefficient.
>   With this I start every day in org-mode by clicking on the link of the
>   project from the kanban table to get to its notes (which I also track
>   in org-mode). See
>   https://www.draketo.de/light/english/free-software/el-kanban-org-table
>   → https://hg.sr.ht/~arnebab/kanban.el
>
> ** Capture tasks for Projects
>   Projects have as many tasks as I need to track. At work they are
>   usually Stories (3-5 days). Nowadays I create new tasks by using
>   org-capture templates with one template per larger project and one for
>   bugs, but I used to just use two templates (which might be a
>   better fit for you):
>   - (i) task to start immediately and
>   - (l) task to start later
>
> ** Setup
>
> (with-eval-after-load 'org
>   (setq org-agenda-custom-commands
>         '(("o" "Agenda and TODOs"
>            ((agenda) ; nil ((org-agenda-compact-blocks nil)(org-agenda-block-separator ?-)(org-agenda-overriding-header "")))
>             (tags-todo "-notodo-TERMIN" ((org-agenda-block-separator ?-)))
> 	        (tags "KANBAN" ((org-agenda-block-separator ?-)
>                             (org-agenda-compact-blocks nil)
>                             (org-agenda-overriding-header ""))))))))
>   (defun my/org-agenda-show-kanban ()
>   (interactive)
>   (save-excursion
>     (search-forward ":KANBAN:")
>     (org-agenda-goto)
>     (org-narrow-to-subtree)
>     (show-all)
>     (fit-window-to-buffer)
>     (widen)
>     (recenter-top-bottom 0)))
>
> (defun agenda-and-todo ()
>   (interactive)
>   (org-agenda nil "o")
>   (delete-other-windows)
>   (my/org-agenda-show-kanban)
> ;;      desktop systemsettings shortcuts: map f12 to
> ;;        emacsclient -e '(progn (show-frame)(agenda-and-todo))'
> (global-set-key (kbd "<f12>") 'agenda-and-todo)
>
>
>
>> So, if you have any suggestion on how to manage, in Org-mode, projects
>> with:
>> * Lot of work to do (many days)
>> * Short deadline (not enough time)
>
> This is something to fix. Also outside org. Always feeling like having
> to catch-up can burn you out otherwise.
>
> As an analogy: Even if you have to sprint sometimes, what you really
> want to do is to take a brisk walk, so you can still talk to your fellow
> students and think about the best way to address the tasks — do things
> well thought-out.
>
>> * High importance (disastrous consequences in my future in case of fail)
>> * Many of them in the same time
>> * Progression need to be followed to chose where to sacrifice time to
>>   limit the damages
>
> Ideally have a plan beforehand which things to drop when time becomes
> tight. For example tag them or such. These are optional, otherwise you
> could not drop them when times becomes tight.
>
>
>
> (also I have a nicer clocktable layout so level2-entries look good:
>
> ;; nicer org clocktable layout
> (defun my-org-clocktable-indent-string (level)
>   (if (= level 1)
>       ""
>     (let ((str "└"))
>       (while (> level 2)
>         (setq level (1- level)
>               str (concat str "──")))
>       (concat str "─> "))))
> (advice-add 'org-clocktable-indent-string :override #'my-org-clocktable-indent-string)
> )
>
> Here’s the relevant part of my org-agenda setup:
>
> (use-package org-agenda
>   :defer 8
>   :custom
>   ;; provide desktop alerts, so I can have appointments in org-mode, too
>   (alert-default-style 'libnotify)
>   (appt-disp-window-function 'alert-for-appt)
>   (org-agenda-include-diary t)
>   (appt-delete-window-function (lambda ()))
>   (org-agenda-clockreport-parameter-plist (quote (:link t :maxlevel 2 :properties ("Effort"))))
>   (org-columns-default-format
>    "%25ITEM %TODO %3PRIORITY %TAGS %17Effort(Estimated Effort){:} %CLOCKSUM")
>   (org-global-properties
>    '(("Effort_ALL" . "0:30 1:00 2:00 3:00 6:00 8:00 16:00 40:00")))
>   (org-agenda-start-with-clockreport-mode t)
>   :config
>   ;; Rebuild the reminders everytime the agenda is displayed
>   (add-hook 'org-agenda-finalize-hook (lambda () (org-agenda-to-appt t)))
>   ;; Run once when Emacs starts
>   (org-agenda-to-appt t)
>   ;; Activate appointments so we get notifications
>   (appt-activate t)
>   (defun appt-reparse-diary-file ()
>     "force reparsing the diary file"
>     (appt-check t))
>   (add-to-list 'midnight-hook 'appt-reparse-diary-file))
>
>
> Best wishes,
> Arne

Re: How do you manage complex project with Org-mode

[Sébastien Gendre]

Hello Tim,

Thanks for your response and advice.

I want to keep Org-mode as simple as possible. As you suggest.

In the past, I ended up several times with a too complex Org-mode
workflow and stop using it because of that. That because, today, I want
to keep it simple. Usually, I apply a GTD workflow (or what I think it
is, I'm not an expert).

As you say, I need to learn skills for project management. But the
project management methods we learned at school where to rigid. And, at
work, the method is more "do the job, stop thinking, be professional".
But it's, or was, the kind of job where you are asked to "not write test
to save time". I generally have bad experiences at work.

To manage school big work, I think of managing them as projects.

I want to apply a simple "Project" workflow:

* Each project is a headline with the status "PROJECT"
* Each project have the deadline defined by the school work deadline
* Each project have a complete description with every info needed to work
* Each project have one or many tasks (as sub headlines with a status)
* Each task have a importance, time and effort estimation
* Each task have its own deadline, distributed along the remaining time
* When I set a task deadline, I look at its estimations and also other projects tasks
* To create a new project, I use Org-capture with a template

Every time I create a new project, it start with one task: "Planning the
project". With a deadline at 2 days max. The description of this task is
a checkbox list of thing to do when planning the project.

And finally, 2 times per week, I got a repetitive task: "Review the
projects progress". With this, I should be able to adjust spending time
and effort.

I think it would be simple and need only a few Org-mode configurations.
And by doing like that, every time I look at the agenda, I will see what
work I need to do every days. Task of each project or review of all
projects.






Tim Cross <theophilusx@gmail.com> writes:

> Sébastien Gendre <seb@k-7.ch> writes:
>
>> Hello,
>>
>> I don't know if it's the correct place to ask it. If not, sorry to ask in
>> the wrong place.
>>
>
> I think it is the correct place. This is a list for general org mode
> discussions. Such discussions can be technical or about how to use org mode.
>
>> How do you manage complex project with Org-mode ?
>>
>> I used Org-mode for several periods of time in recent years. It worked
>> very well for short and day to day tasks. When only a few of theme have
>> deadlines and when you have plenty of time to do them.
>>
>> But, as a student, I regularly have big and important projects to do for
>> the school. The kind of project who need several days to be done, with
>> deadlines too soon, and if you fail one them the consequences can be
>> disastrous. And generally, I have to many of these project in the same
>> time and not enough time to do all the work. So, I also need to follow
>> the progress of each project to choose which is sufficiently advanced to
>> be stop for the benefit of another less advanced project.
>>
>> And I don't know how to manage this kind of projects with Org-mode. How
>> to do it, without failing a 6 days project because I spent to much time
>> on something else and I have only 3 days left with 3 half-day important
>> appointment I cannot cancel. I can't risk failing a single one of these
>> project by trying. So, when I am in a period with a lot of these
>> projects, I stop using Org-mode and concentrate on doing these project
>> as fast as I can. And because I often have this kind of project, I spend
>> most of the year without being able to use Org-mode.
>>
>
> The first thing I would say is that org mode is NOT going to solve your
> problems of too many tasks with competing priorities in too short a time
> period or mitigate the impact from missed deadlines etc. In fact, no
> project management software can do this.
>
> Org mode is merely a tool which can help you manage tasks, deadlines,
> schedules, priorities and project information. It can help you track
> your tasks so fewer are overlooked/forgotten, it can help you manage
> your deadlines and scheduling of time and it can help you manage
> priorities and provide you with an overview of things that can alert you
> to issues earlier, allowing for a wider range of mitigation
> strategies. However, it is just a tool and how well you use that tool
> will come down to experience and self discipline.
>
>
>> So, if you have any suggestion on how to manage, in Org-mode, projects
>> with:
>> * Lot of work to do (many days)
>> * Short deadline (not enough time)
>> * High importance (disastrous consequences in my future in case of fail)
>> * Many of them in the same time
>> * Progression need to be followed to chose where to sacrifice time to
>>   limit the damages
>>
>
> That list is almost an exact match for the job criteria on the last job
> I applied for, which highlights the point these are individual skills
> which need to be learned, primarily through experience and not something
> which can be solved by a software tool. Such tools can help ensure
> things don't fall through the gaps during busy stressful projects, can
> help you assess how much work needs to be done and where corners will
> need to be cut or deadlines changed, scope reduced or quality
> decreased. At some point, you have to make a call as to what you will
> manage in your org-mode files. Too much or too detailed and too much
> time will be spent gathering and managing the data. Too little or
> insufficient detail and decisions on what has to be sacrificed are
> likely to be misguided or wrong. Unfortunately, there is no formula to
> calculate this. It will depend on the environment, types of projects and
> individual experience and preferences.
>
> The key to using org mode to manage projects is largely about
> incremental refinement. You start by defining a plan on how to use org
> mode, you then implement that plan and start using it. You then review
> how well it is working at some point and take the experience to that
> point, both positive and negative, into a new cycle, starting with a new
> plan (refined plan), implement, use review and continue this cycle
> (probably indefinitely, but likely with longer cycles).
>
> In general, I would recommend the following
>
> - Start simple. Don't try to do everything all at once. Org is extremely
>   flexible with a lot of built-in functionality. Trying to use all of it
>   all at once is likely going to make it a burden rather than an aid.
>
> - Start with a default org-mode configuration. A mistake I've seen
>   people make many times is to immediately start by configuring new and
>   complicated TODO states or complicated capture templates or extensive
>   tag hierarchies and complex priority levels. Avoid the temptation to
>   over engineer your requirements. Use the default configuration for a
>   time and then evaluate things and decide where to make some small
>   changes.
>
> - Don't let the tail wag the dog. Remember, org mode is there to make
>   your life easier. If you find your now spending all your time trying
>   to capture tasks, set priorities, clock in/out of tasks, fill in
>   capture templates etc, your doing it wrong. Org mode should be saving
>   you time, not consuming it.
>
> - Be broad in your research. When trying to develop a better way to
>   manage your projects/workflow/tasks, don't just look at how people do
>   it in org. Look at more general solutions and then see how org can be
>   used to support whatever approach you want to use. For example, many
>   people like the Getting Things Done (GTD) approach, others prefer an
>   approach based on Agile project management methodologies and others
>   use org mode based on a PRINC2 PM model.
>
> - Don't try to put all your projects into org at once. Pick a project
>   and use org to manage it. This will be your initial test case. The
>   project which will help you learn about org mode and apply your
>   project management sills using org mode as your primary management
>   tool.
>
> My own approach is probably best described as a hybrid or maybe
> Frankenstein model. I have cherry picked bits from various approaches to
> come up with something that works for me. It probably wouldn't work for
> anyone else, but I find it has improved my ability to get projects done,
> to track the critical information associated with a project and reduce
> the number of tasks I overlook or forget. It took me a while to get to
> this point and there were a fair number of mistakes made on the
> way. Many of my original tweaks and configuration changes have been
> removed and my setup is probably closer to a default configuration than
> it ever has been before.
>
> The main objectives for my own configuration were
>
> - Make it easy to capture information and deal with it later. When your
>   working on a task, other things will intrude and work to distract
>   you. I try to minimise these by having a minimal set of capture
>   templates which will allow me to capture some bit of information, some
>   random, but possibly important idea, some phone call from a client, a
>   task my wife wants done etc., which will be captured into a file which
>   I will go through later. This allows me to get back to what I'm trying
>   to focus on with minimal distraction.
>
> - Keep active tasks to a minimum. There is no point having a task list
>   with hundreds of entries to select from when your trying to decide
>   what to do next. So many tasks will cause stress and make it difficult
>   to decide which tasks should be worked on next. I treat my list of
>   tasks in a TODO state as my backlog of tasks. Many of them will
>   probably never be acted upon. Every fortnight or so, I will go through
>   the list and flag some as 'NEXT' tasks. The aim is to ensure there are
>   sufficient STARTED and NEXT tasks to keep me fully allocated for the
>   next 'sprint'. When I start a task, its state moves from NEXT to
>   STARTED. It will then transition to DONE, DELEGATED, HOLD or CANCELLED
>   as necessary. Only tasks wiht a STARTED/NEXT/HOLD state appear in my
>   agenda. Typically, there are never more than 10 tasks in a
>   STARTED/NEXT state.
>
> - When working, I use a pmodoro approach. I work in 20 - 40 minute
>   periods with a 5 minute break between periods and a 15 minute break
>   after every 3 or 4 periods. During a period, I will not respond to or
>   read email, will not answer the phone and will pretty much ignore
>   everything except the task I'm working on.
>
> - I always check in and check out when I'm working on a task. This is
>   partially because I want to track where I'm spending time, but mainly
>   to help me improve my effort estimation skills. The ability to make
>   accurate effort estimations is an important skill, but one which is
>   hard to develop. Comparing effort estimates with actual completion
>   effort can help improve effort estimate reliability.
>
> - I tend to only use SCHEDULED times for things which have a definite
>   scheduled time (like a meeting) and only use DEADLINE when there is a
>   real and definite deadline. I sometimes use priorities, but not often
>   and only use the standard #A, #B and #C. I don't see the point in
>   having more than 3 levels of priority.

Re: How do you manage complex project with Org-mode

[Sébastien Gendre]

Hello Antonio,

Thanks for your reply and advice. :)

I looked at TaskJuggler and I see how it could help. But, by looking at the
screenshot, I see too much information in the same time. And, as someone
with difficulty to concentrating, I need more minimalist tools.

But I will try it one time.


Antonio Carlos Padoan Junior <acpadoanjr@yahoo.com.br> writes:

> Hello,
>
> I'm not sure if I will help you with my advice, but I really appreciate
> to use taskjuggler mixed with org-mode. There is somewhere in the web an
> org-exporter to taskjuggler. I think recently a topic on this matter
> appeared in this list.
>
> Taskjuggler can help you optimizing complex plannings and can be used in a
> professional context.
>
> For sure you will need to invest some time on it but it is a good
> middle-term investment.
>
> Good luck,

Re: How do you manage complex project with Org-mode

[Sébastien Gendre]

Hello Milan,

Thank you for your reply and advice. :)

Indeed, using deadline with longer in-advance warnings is a good idea. I
completely forget this feature. Using priority and split big task
is also a good advice. Today I pay attention to keep Org-mode as simple as
possible. It was not the case in the past and few times I stopped using
Org-mode because of that.



Milan Zamazal <pdm@zamazal.org> writes:

>>>>>> "SG" == Sébastien Gendre <seb@k-7.ch> writes:
>
>     SG> But, as a student, I regularly have big and important projects
>     SG> to do for the school. The kind of project who need several days
>     SG> to be done, with deadlines too soon, and if you fail one them
>     SG> the consequences can be disastrous. And generally, I have to
>     SG> many of these project in the same time and not enough time to do
>     SG> all the work. So, I also need to follow the progress of each
>     SG> project to choose which is sufficiently advanced to be stop for
>     SG> the benefit of another less advanced project.
>
>     SG> And I don't know how to manage this kind of projects with
>     SG> Org-mode. How to do it, without failing a 6 days project because
>     SG> I spent to much time on something else and I have only 3 days
>     SG> left with 3 half-day important appointment I cannot cancel. I
>     SG> can't risk failing a single one of these project by trying. So,
>     SG> when I am in a period with a lot of these projects, I stop using
>     SG> Org-mode and concentrate on doing these project as fast as I
>     SG> can. And because I often have this kind of project, I spend most
>     SG> of the year without being able to use Org-mode.
>
> Hi, I’d join the suggestion to keep things simple in the beginning.  My
> task flow is different from yours but in order not to miss really
> important things, I use the following:
>
> - Deadlines, with longer in-advance warnings when needed (e.g. “-3w” in
>   DEADLINE).
>
> - I use priority A for and only for stuff that is on risk of really bad
>   consequences if not handled ASAP.  And I schedule such stuff to a
>   future date if it doesn’t make sense to work on it now for any reason.
>
> As for progress, I’d say that if you don’t know how far are you with
> your short-term tasks and which of them require attention currently then
> you might have a problem with your workflow.  Maybe you are too
> overloaded or you don’t split your time among the tasks appropriately.
> Org mode is a good tool to implement support for different workflows but
> cannot help if a used workflow doesn’t work very well for you.  Again,
> starting simple with Org mode and paying attention first to how you work
> and how it could be improved generally might be a good idea (and a
> life-long process for many of us).
>
> Regards,
> Milan

Re: How do you manage complex project with Org-mode

[Sébastien Gendre]

Hello Quiliro,

Thank for you reply and advice. :)

Generally, I use the GTD workflow. Or what I think it is (I'm not an
expert). I started with 3 files:

* Tasks.org
* Notes.org
* Inbox.org

Now, the file "Notes.org" is a folder. And inside I got a file per
subject.

I capture notes and tasks, with org-capture, that end in the file "Inbox.org".

On my phone, I use Orgzly as a pocket inbox, for when I'm not in front of
my computer. The files of Orgzly are sync with my PC using Syncthing.

Everyday, at the end of the day, I review the inbox(s):
* I do little tasks (< 3 min)
* I complete the description of the other tasks and refile them (with
  org-refile)

Everyday, at the beginning of the day, I look at the agenda (Org-agenda)
to see what I need to do. If I have free time and still energy, I search
for tasks to do in advance.

This workflow work very well and ask few effort for managing it. But I
never take the risk to use it for important project. But maybe it's an
irrational fear. Maybe it would work.

Based on suggestions in this mailing list, I take time to think about
what define a work given by the school and what I need to do to
accomplish them best. And I think of a simple "Project" workflow that
can integrate with my actual workflow.

I think this simple "Project" workflow will be:

* Each project is a headline with the status "PROJECT"
* Each project have the deadline defined by the school work deadline
* Each project have a complete description with every info needed to work
* Each project have one or many tasks (as sub headlines with a TODO/NEXT/DONE status)
* Each task have an importance, time and effort estimation
* Each task have its own deadline, distributed along the remaining time
* When I set a task deadline, I look at its estimations and also other projects tasks
* To create a new project, I use Org-capture with a template

Every time I create a new project, it start with one task: "Planning the
project". With a deadline at 2 days max. The description of this task is
a checkbox list of thing to do when planning the project.

And finally, 2 times per week, I got a repetitive task: "Review the
projects progress". With this, I should be able to adjust spending time
and effort.

I think it would be simple and need only a few Org-mode configurations.
And by doing like that, every time I look at the agenda, I will see what
work I need to do every days. Task of each project or review of all
projects.




Quiliro Ordóñez <quiliro@riseup.net> writes:

> Hello Seb.
>
> It is great that you want to use org for your planning.  It is the best
> tool I know of.  Tim's advice sounds the best introductory one and
> others even gave you advanced advice.  Nevertheless, you never told us
> how you use org and why it takes so much time for you.  Perhaps you
> could take less time to plan and more time to do, without completely
> trashing the planning.  Then you could increment the planning until it
> proves to be more time consuming.  At that point you can reduce a little
> planning again.  It is a tuning process.
>
> Happy Hacking!
>
> Quiliro

Re: How do you manage complex project with Org-mode

[Sébastien Gendre]

Hello Eric,

Thanks for your reply and advice.

I will look at custom agenda view and clocking. But I have bad memory of
clocking tools because of the way previous jobs used it (It was not
Emacs).


Eric Abrahamsen <eric@ericabrahamsen.net> writes:

> Sébastien Gendre <seb@k-7.ch> writes:
>
>> Hello,
>>
>> I don't know if it's the correct place to ask it. If not, sorry to ask in
>> the wrong place.
>>
>> How do you manage complex project with Org-mode ?
>>
>> I used Org-mode for several periods of time in recent years. It worked
>> very well for short and day to day tasks. When only a few of theme have
>> deadlines and when you have plenty of time to do them.
>>
>> But, as a student, I regularly have big and important projects to do for
>> the school. The kind of project who need several days to be done, with
>> deadlines too soon, and if you fail one them the consequences can be
>> disastrous. And generally, I have to many of these project in the same
>> time and not enough time to do all the work. So, I also need to follow
>> the progress of each project to choose which is sufficiently advanced to
>> be stop for the benefit of another less advanced project.
>>
>> And I don't know how to manage this kind of projects with Org-mode. How
>> to do it, without failing a 6 days project because I spent to much time
>> on something else and I have only 3 days left with 3 half-day important
>> appointment I cannot cancel. I can't risk failing a single one of these
>> project by trying. So, when I am in a period with a lot of these
>> projects, I stop using Org-mode and concentrate on doing these project
>> as fast as I can. And because I often have this kind of project, I spend
>> most of the year without being able to use Org-mode.
>>
>> So, if you have any suggestion on how to manage, in Org-mode, projects
>> with:
>> * Lot of work to do (many days)
>> * Short deadline (not enough time)
>> * High importance (disastrous consequences in my future in case of fail)
>> * Many of them in the same time
>> * Progression need to be followed to chose where to sacrifice time to
>>   limit the damages
>
> Interesting questions! I have the same general problem of, when things
> heat up too much, I stop using the Org agenda. It's quite the opposite
> of how it's supposed to work, but I guess it's something about human
> psychology. I'll be interested to see what people say in this thread.
>
> Some suggestions that come to mind:
>
> - Create custom agenda views for each project, providing an overview of
>   that project only, but use a single unified agenda view for each day's
>   schedule. Look at the per-project agenda to decide if/how to complete
>   it, but draw the action items into the unified schedule when deciding
>   how to spend your day. It should become evident pretty quickly what
>   you actually have time for. Projects are many, but there is only one
>   of you.
> - Maybe consider using `org-trigger-hook' and `org-blocker-hook' to cut
>   down on TODO overwhelm.
> - Use time estimates and then TODO clocking to more swiftly disabuse
>   yourself of unrealistic expectations. This plus a schedule agenda can
>   also help you make sure you stop work at a reasonable time and go do
>   something else.
> - Say no to more work :) Looking at your solid-packed agenda for the
>   next day works wonders for saying no.
>
> Good luck!

Re: How do you manage complex project with Org-mode

[Tim Cross]

Sébastien Gendre <seb@k-7.ch> writes:

> Hello Tim,
>
> Thanks for your response and advice.
>
> I want to keep Org-mode as simple as possible. As you suggest.
>
> In the past, I ended up several times with a too complex Org-mode
> workflow and stop using it because of that. That because, today, I want
> to keep it simple. Usually, I apply a GTD workflow (or what I think it
> is, I'm not an expert).
>
> As you say, I need to learn skills for project management. But the
> project management methods we learned at school where to rigid. And, at
> work, the method is more "do the job, stop thinking, be professional".
> But it's, or was, the kind of job where you are asked to "not write test
> to save time". I generally have bad experiences at work.

Sadly, the software industry is full of some very poor middle managers
who don't really understand the complexities of the software
life-cycle. Too often, they focus on immediate deadlines and overlook
long-term maintenance. How you deal with such situations is down to
experience, confidence and where your own personal values lie. There has
been more than one job I've left because the way management was running
the project was poor and almost certainly going to lead to eventual
failure. There has been more than one job interview where I've stated
that if they are looking for someone to write code by the pound, I'm not
there man. I will ask leading questions in the interview to evaluate
what 'style' of development/management they use - for example, if they
measure productivity by the number of lines of code you right in a day,
I will thank them for their time and quietly walk away.

>
> To manage school big work, I think of managing them as projects.
>
> I want to apply a simple "Project" workflow:
>
> * Each project is a headline with the status "PROJECT"
> * Each project have the deadline defined by the school work deadline
> * Each project have a complete description with every info needed to work
> * Each project have one or many tasks (as sub headlines with a status)
> * Each task have a importance, time and effort estimation
> * Each task have its own deadline, distributed along the remaining time
> * When I set a task deadline, I look at its estimations and also other projects tasks
> * To create a new project, I use Org-capture with a template
>
> Every time I create a new project, it start with one task: "Planning the
> project". With a deadline at 2 days max. The description of this task is
> a checkbox list of thing to do when planning the project.
>
> And finally, 2 times per week, I got a repetitive task: "Review the
> projects progress". With this, I should be able to adjust spending time
> and effort.
>

All seems like a reasonable starting point. The key is to regularly
review and refine your workflow. I would avoid the tendency to
think you have to put everything into your workflow. For example, I
would not have a task which says to review my tasks twice a week. Do you
really need a task to remind you to do this twice a week? Do you really
need to track that you have done this? I would classify such tasks as
'noise' tasks. They really don't perform any real purpose.  It is
similar to brain dead project policies which state things like "every
function must have a unit test". Many functions don't need a unit test
and forcing people to write pointless unit tests does more damage than
not having them. A unit test needs to be a positive addition and
deciding when it is or is not is part of what being a professional
developer is all about. Likewise with project management. You don't want
tasks for every simple thing you do. You want to record and track the
important tasks. No tool is a replacement for using your brain - these
are just tools and it is down to us to use them in an intelligent and
efficient manner.

Use org mode to make your life easier. If it isn't making it easier,
then you are doing something wrong and need to review and
re-prioritise.

Re: How do you manage complex project with Org-mode

[Eric Abrahamsen]

Sébastien Gendre <seb@k-7.ch> writes:

> Hello Eric,
>
> Thanks for your reply and advice.
>
> I will look at custom agenda view and clocking. But I have bad memory of
> clocking tools because of the way previous jobs used it (It was not
> Emacs).

It's a much more positive experience when you're using it to improve
your own quality of life, rather than someone else's business metrics!

Re: How do you manage complex project with Org-mode

[Ihor Radchenko]

Sébastien Gendre <seb@k-7.ch> writes:

> So, if you have any suggestion on how to manage, in Org-mode, projects
> with:
> * Lot of work to do (many days)
> * Short deadline (not enough time)
> * High importance (disastrous consequences in my future in case of fail)
> * Many of them in the same time
> * Progression need to be followed to chose where to sacrifice time to
>   limit the damages

I think that your existing system is already a good starting point. I
would not recommend changing it drastically. Every possible time
management workflow must be based on existing workflow habits (like
daily inbox review) and only introduce new habits one by one and slowly.

For your specific situation with many simultaneous important projects,
you are not alone. Every student meets similar issue.

My recommendations for managing multiple projects:

1. Similar to daily inbox review, do weekly/bi-weekly project progress
   review. You are already doing this. However, I am not sure about the
   details.

   When doing project review, I find it useful to create a custom agenda
   listing all the ongoing projects.

   Every time I review the project list, I select up to 3 projects I
   plan to work on from now till the next project review. All other
   projects are marked "HOLD" and their tasks will never be listed in
   agenda (unless there is some hard deadline or unskippable meeting).

   Review is the time when you decide which projects to sacrifice if you
   have insufficient time. Coming back to those HOLD projects after the
   review time is a no-no, unless you complete the planned projects and
   still have remaining time.

2. If you cannot complete a project within initially planned time, it
   may be tempting to continue until completion. Do not do this. It is
   better to try finishing the other planned project work first and come
   back to the partially completed projects if time permits.

   In Org, there are several tools you can use to address this:
   - You may dedicate each single day to no more than a single project.
     The project tasks will be scheduled to specific days and you can
     create a custom agenda that does not show tasks scheduled in past
     days.
   - You may use effort estimates for projects/tasks shorter than a day
     + non-nil org-clock-sound. If you create a habit to clock-in
     regularly, Emacs will play a sound when you run out of time.
   - You may create a rule to have at least a single easy 2-3 min task
     as "entry" point to a project you plan to switch to. Having a
     simple task really makes it easier to switch from working on
     current and already familiar project to other one.
     *This rule sounds obvious and simple, but I cannot stress more how
      much it changed my workflow once I got to follow this regularly*
   
The above suggestions are simple to list and somewhat obvious, but
not-so-easy to master. It is important to stick to them as much as
possible until they become a habit. They may take months to master.

> To manage school big work, I think of managing them as projects.
>
> I want to apply a simple "Project" workflow:
>
> * Each project is a headline with the status "PROJECT"
> * Each project have the deadline defined by the school work deadline
> * Each project have a complete description with every info needed to work
> * Each project have one or many tasks (as sub headlines with a status)
> * Each task have a importance, time and effort estimation
> * Each task have its own deadline, distributed along the remaining time
> * When I set a task deadline, I look at its estimations and also other projects tasks
> * To create a new project, I use Org-capture with a template

Just one comment. If you tend to have a large number of tasks in your
agenda, you are likely overusing deadlines and scheduling. I would avoid
setting deadlines for every single task. Too long agenda lists are
*counterproductive* in many ways. I recommend scheduling the whole
project (or subproject, it the main project is huge) + 1-2 individual
tasks. When you complete the 1-2 individual tasks, it is more productive
to look inside the project, and select next tasks depending on the new
results from the first tasks.

Hope my comments are useful.

Best,
Ihor

Re: How do you manage complex project with Org-mode

[Ihor Radchenko]

Tim Cross <theophilusx@gmail.com> writes:

> For example, I
> would not have a task which says to review my tasks twice a week. Do you
> really need a task to remind you to do this twice a week? Do you really
> need to track that you have done this? I would classify such tasks as
> 'noise' tasks. They really don't perform any real purpose.  It is
> similar to brain dead project policies which state things like "every
> function must have a unit test". Many functions don't need a unit test
> and forcing people to write pointless unit tests does more damage than
> not having them.

I disagree about this specific example (not with your whole idea).
Reviewing tasks is important for people who can easily fall into
continuous routine. Dedicating several hours per week to look into what
you are doing in a broader perspective is valuable.

Note that I do not mean "review" as looking through _all_ the tasks.
Rather looking into current projects and deciding what to do, and, more
importantly, what not to do in the coming week/days/months.

See https://www.benkuhn.net/weekly/

Best,
Ihor

Re: How do you manage complex project with Org-mode

[Tim Cross]

Ihor Radchenko <yantar92@gmail.com> writes:

> Tim Cross <theophilusx@gmail.com> writes:
>
>> For example, I
>> would not have a task which says to review my tasks twice a week. Do you
>> really need a task to remind you to do this twice a week? Do you really
>> need to track that you have done this? I would classify such tasks as
>> 'noise' tasks. They really don't perform any real purpose.  It is
>> similar to brain dead project policies which state things like "every
>> function must have a unit test". Many functions don't need a unit test
>> and forcing people to write pointless unit tests does more damage than
>> not having them.
>
> I disagree about this specific example (not with your whole idea).
> Reviewing tasks is important for people who can easily fall into
> continuous routine. Dedicating several hours per week to look into what
> you are doing in a broader perspective is valuable.
>
> Note that I do not mean "review" as looking through _all_ the tasks.
> Rather looking into current projects and deciding what to do, and, more
> importantly, what not to do in the coming week/days/months.
>
> See https://www.benkuhn.net/weekly/
>

My point was not that you don't need to review on a regular basis.
Reviewing your tasks and projects regularly is essential. My point was
that creating a todo task telling you to review your tasks/projects is
an example of a 'noise' task.

A common beginner error I've seen is for people to be so impressed with
org-mode, they decide to create tasks, templates and projects which map
out every aspect of their life. The problem with doing this is that you
then create additional work for yourself in managing these tasks and you
run the risk of being overwhelmed - you have so many tasks that instead
of making your life easier, you now become paralysed by too many task
choices.  

Getting the right balance is challenging and we do need to review
what/how we do things and refine our process in a continuous analyse,
plan, implement, review cycle.  

Re: How do you manage complex project with Org-mode

[Ihor Radchenko]

Tim Cross <theophilusx@gmail.com> writes:

> My point was not that you don't need to review on a regular basis.
> Reviewing your tasks and projects regularly is essential. My point was
> that creating a todo task telling you to review your tasks/projects is
> an example of a 'noise' task.

I guess that it depends on what you mean by review. I would not call it
a 'noise', but rather a routine. A non-trivial one that requires deep
focus.

Having the review routine as a repeated task "review projects" is not
very useful by itself. However, you can make such task useful by using
checklists:

For example:
https://gist.github.com/mwfogleman/fbec1cc11f9eaac5e5d36b92c671ec8b

Or the one I use:
- [ ] Commit all the changes before the review
- [ ] Check clocking data for past week using the java app elisp:org-analyzer-start
  This data will reflect my actual performance, not the way I feel.\\
  Related: [[id:benkuhn_my_weekl_review_habit_benkuh][[benkuhn] My Weekly Review Habit]]
  - [ ] add to [[clock-summary][summary table]]
  - [ ] Think about undesired actions I have made during the week. What was the trigger for the actions? Reward? Can I avoid the trigger? Can I change the action? Remove reward?
    [[id:duhigg2012the][Duhigg, Charles [Random House] (2012) The power of habit : why we do what we do in life and business]]
  - [ ] Am I happy with the time spend on work?
  - [ ] If not, should I mark some of the areas or common projects SOMEDAY?
  - [ ] If I feel that I worked too much, but it is not true, consider reducing the number of active work tasks
  - [ ] [[elisp:org-analyzer-stop]]
- [ ] Collect all new legal documents and save them to org-mode
- [ ] Add all new contacts to org-contacts
- [ ] Commit and push all changed repositories elisp:magit-list-repositories
- [ ] Clear the Mobiscribe notes
- [ ] Make sure that all the zettels are in sync with org-mode
  - [ ] Copy the card number as =CUSTOM_ID=
  - [ ] Copy creation date as =CREATED=
  - [ ] mark sorted out cards by separator marker
- [ ] Process all the REVIEW tasks (link them). If need many more notes, mark them NEXT again
- [ ] Look at entire agenda for today  =g a v=
  - [ ] check tasks to archive
  - [ ] commit the changes
  - [ ] check *active projects*. Make sure that nothing falls out of control
    - [ ] check work projects
    - [ ] check non-work projects
  - [ ] Check *WAITING and HOLD projects*, move them to someday if necessary
  - [ ] check *WAITING and HOLD tasks*, mark them NEXT if need to followup (make *note*)
  - [ ] check ongoing and NEXT tasks, make sure that they have a concrete NEXT action
  - [ ] make sure that the number of active project for *next week* is manageable. Mark/unmark them HOLD otherwise.
    I should really set a small number of projects to avoid distracting my attention into too many things at the same time [[id:benkuhn_atten_is_your_scarc_resour_benkuh][[benkuhn] Attention Is Your Scarcest Resource | Benkuhn.net]]
  - [ ] check SOMEDAY projects and consider if I need to start/continue working on them
- [ ] Check next week's agenda
- [ ] Schedule deadlines for 3 big tasks (goals) to be finished next week. [[id:small-hack-my-daily-plan-acf][[König von Haunstetten] #daily_goal_tasks A small hack for my daily plan]]
  If there are no tasks, create them.
- [ ] check next month's calendar
- [ ] commit all the changes made during the review

> A common beginner error I've seen is for people to be so impressed with
> org-mode, they decide to create tasks, templates and projects which map
> out every aspect of their life. The problem with doing this is that you
> then create additional work for yourself in managing these tasks and you
> run the risk of being overwhelmed - you have so many tasks that instead
> of making your life easier, you now become paralysed by too many task
> choices.  

You are right, which is why I stress on limiting the number of tasks in
agenda. However, I would not call review as something that should not be
listed in agenda. It requires a good several hours and should be taken
into account when planning the day.

Best,
Ihor

Re: How do you manage complex project with Org-mode

[Jean Louis]

* Sébastien Gendre <seb@k-7.ch> [2022-03-01 05:35]:
> And I don't know how to manage this kind of projects with Org-mode.

Just use pen and paper notebook. Carry it with you.


-- 
Jean

Take action in Free Software Foundation campaigns:
https://www.fsf.org/campaigns

In support of Richard M. Stallman
https://stallmansupport.org/

Re: How do you manage complex project with Org-mode

[Jean Louis]

* Sébastien Gendre <seb@k-7.ch> [2022-03-02 23:44]:
> Well, what I want by "follow the progress" is to see:
> 
> * How many work I have done
> * How many work remains to be done
> * How many time left
> * How many time other project need

When speaking of multiple projects related to multiple entities such
as companies, organizations, people, businesses, one has to divide it
all by those groups. And then there is time involved. Any work done
has to be calculated maybe in total, but maybe for the project within
one group of people, and maybe for one period within the whole
time. Thus there are various considerations.

What really matter is the priority. Org mode can't know what it
is. You know it best. 

You will know what is priority as for such you don't have much time to
write it down, you just do it. Like waking up, brushing teeth, those
are actual priorities, we don't write the down.

- Units of work or tasks may be subproducts to the actual work, you
  may do 100 of them and not reach the point that other people may say
  it is valuable enough. Counting completed tasks is less useful and
  may be deceptive. Count the actual products you have produced. Not
  single tasks that one eventually cannot compare to each other.

  Instead of putting focus on counting the number of advertising
  pieces sent (which you should count), you should focus greatly on
  counting the actual sales. Convert this idea to your organizations
  schema.

- For how much work remains to be done, one shall not just count as
  robot what one has written in the computer, but rather look at the
  purpose of the work. You may write 100 tasks to reach the purpose,
  and when you reach the purpose you may have still 27 tasks
  pending. If you have reached the purpose, those tasks may be
  redundant. Think about it. Awarding oneself for some numbers in
  computer is meaningless.

- How much time is left for major actions will be always in your
  mind. For smaller actions and mass of tasks that is something you
  can track with computer.

- Estimating time for projects is difficult and never accurate,
  especially if you are given rather shorter periods of time for some
  reason. It is better focusing on purpose and getting purpose
  done. Many assignees may not understand the purpose of the task. I
  suggest special property PURPOSE to be clear what the task means and
  why it is done. As overdoing the task just because it is written
  misses the purpose easily.

  Let us say you wish to watch movie in cinema, and you first take
  list of 10 cinema's in the town with the purpose to call them all
  and find out which movies play. Then you start calling or visiting
  their websites, and at the 3rd cinema your friend in the room tells
  you should watch that great movie, and you make that decision, and
  it is just 30 minutes before the movie starts. Are you going to keep
  pushing to find out the remaining 7 cinemas' programs or you are
  moving now to watch the actual movie? Stress must be made that
  PURPOSE of the task is important and that people shall not dwell on
  something that is redundant.

> * Each project is a headline with the status "PROJECT"
> * Each project have the deadline defined by the school work deadline
> * Each project have a complete description with every info needed to work
> * Each project have one or many tasks (as sub headlines with a
> * status)

Sounds very good to me.

> * Each task have a importance, time and effort estimation

Each task has the important, but let's go back to purpose. You wish to
complete the project, tasks can't be illogically or out of the
order. Thus they have to be in the order. Importance is automatically
there if the logical order of tasks is part of the structure.

In order to paint a room you have to purchase paint brushes, paint in
the town and bring it to the school. You can't just go to school first
and paint without first bringing paint brushes. There is logical order
involved in everything what human do or shall do. Importance is useful
only when person misses to have the sense for logical order.

> * Each task have its own deadline, distributed along the remaining
> * time

And what do you do if you miss the deadline?


-- 
Jean

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https://www.fsf.org/campaigns

In support of Richard M. Stallman
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Re: How do you manage complex project with Org-mode

[Jean Louis]

* Sébastien Gendre <seb@k-7.ch> [2022-03-03 00:36]:
> Every time I create a new project, it start with one task: "Planning the
> project". With a deadline at 2 days max. The description of this task is
> a checkbox list of thing to do when planning the project.

Maybe you mean to say "To finish the planning of the project"?

Though I would not write that as a task, it is redundant as it is
self-referencing.

Either your project planning is finished or not finished, or maybe it
is pending, but you or your senior will know it.

But to write in the project that one has to plan project is redundant.

To give another extreme example, after writing "Planning the project"
in the project one could write as next "Write a task in the project"
in order to write a task, and that way it leads to developed traffic,
too much work and self-referencing.

-- 
Jean

Take action in Free Software Foundation campaigns:
https://www.fsf.org/campaigns

In support of Richard M. Stallman
https://stallmansupport.org/

Re: How do you manage complex project with Org-mode

[Christian Moe]

I nominate this as the ultimate advice on how to get things done with
Org-mode :-)

Jean Louis writes:

> * Sébastien Gendre <seb@k-7.ch> [2022-03-01 05:35]:
>> And I don't know how to manage this kind of projects with Org-mode.
>
> Just use pen and paper notebook. Carry it with you.

Re: How do you manage complex project with Org-mode

[Payas Relekar]

Jean Louis <bugs@gnu.support> writes:

> * Sébastien Gendre <seb@k-7.ch> [2022-03-01 05:35]:
>> And I don't know how to manage this kind of projects with Org-mode.
>
> Just use pen and paper notebook. Carry it with you.

While nearly unparalleled on the input experience, pen-and-paper is
terrible at data retrieval.

--