org-mode tutorial questionaire

org-mode tutorial questionaire

[Alexander Poslavsky]

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Hi!

There is a new tutorial on worg: http://orgmode.org/worg/org-tutorials/org4beginners.php. The idea is to write a tutorial for somebody who is new to org-mode.

Question for people new to org-mode:
- What did you find especially confusing?
- How did you start out?
- What would you like to see in a beginners tutorial?

For everybody:
-What kind of tutorial would be the most useful? 
-What in your experience people find confusing?

thanks for your time,
alex




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Re: org-mode tutorial questionaire

[Matt Lundin]

Hi Alex,

Alexander Poslavsky <alexander.poslavsky@gmail.com> writes:

> There is a new tutorial on worg: http://orgmode.org/worg/org-tutorials/
> org4beginners.php. The idea is to write a tutorial for somebody who is
> new to org-mode.
...
> For everybody:
> -What kind of tutorial would be the most useful? 
> -What in your experience people find confusing?

Thanks for taking the time to put this on Worg. I wish I had had such a
concise summary of the various flavors of emacs on different platforms
when I started exploring org-mode.

I was wondering if you could elaborate on the following. Are you
suggesting that new users should never use M-x customize?

,----
| The biggest pain, when you just begin with Emacs, is the configuration.
| There is not really a menu for it (you might later hear there is, but
| they are lying, that menu is really there to trap innocent people), you
| need to edit a text-file.
`----

A few comments:

1. Some of the "step-by-step" instructions might be a bit easier to
   follow in list format (rather than paragraphs).

2. If I were reading the tutorial for the first time, I might conclude
   that I had to place "#-*- mode: org -*-" at the top of all my org
   files, even after configuring auto-mode-alist.

3. Why C-x b 2.org --> M-x org-mode --> C-x C-s as the recommended
   workflow? Once the configuration file is set up, C-x C-f 2.org will
   bring one right into org-mode.

Thanks again for all the work you've put into this.

Best,
Matt

Re: org-mode tutorial questionaire

[Alexander Poslavsky]

On Mar 23, 2010, at 8:42 PM, Matt Lundin wrote:

> Hi Alex,
> 
> Alexander Poslavsky <alexander.poslavsky@gmail.com> writes:
> 
>> There is a new tutorial on worg: http://orgmode.org/worg/org-tutorials/
>> org4beginners.php. The idea is to write a tutorial for somebody who is
>> new to org-mode.
> ...
>> For everybody:
>> -What kind of tutorial would be the most useful? 
>> -What in your experience people find confusing?
> 
> Thanks for taking the time to put this on Worg. I wish I had had such a
> concise summary of the various flavors of emacs on different platforms
> when I started exploring org-mode.
> 
> I was wondering if you could elaborate on the following. Are you
> suggesting that new users should never use M-x customize?
Well, I don't know about anybody else, but I *never* use it. I think it is awful. But then, what do I know….
> 
> ,----
> | The biggest pain, when you just begin with Emacs, is the configuration.
> | There is not really a menu for it (you might later hear there is, but
> | they are lying, that menu is really there to trap innocent people), you
> | need to edit a text-file.
> `----
> 
> A few comments:
> 
> 1. Some of the "step-by-step" instructions might be a bit easier to
>   follow in list format (rather than paragraphs).
Hmm, I see your point, but having a tutorial that is just a bunch of lists looks really ugly. Off course if people don't understand it, it's not good either. Let's see if more complaints follow on this.
> 
> 2. If I were reading the tutorial for the first time, I might conclude
>   that I had to place "#-*- mode: org -*-" at the top of all my org
>   files, even after configuring auto-mode-alist.
fixed, added a note about that.
> 
> 3. Why C-x b 2.org --> M-x org-mode --> C-x C-s as the recommended
>   workflow? Once the configuration file is set up, C-x C-f 2.org will
>   bring one right into org-mode.
As far as I can see, that is actually what the doc says:

   Save the file (*C-x s*) as 2.org, and you will notice that the
   colors change, syntax highlighting is turned on, and Emacs
   understands you are working in org-mode.

but if it is not clear, let me know what paragraph you are refering to.
> 
> Thanks again for all the work you've put into this.
> 
> Best,
> Matt
> 
and thank you for your remarks!

alex

Re: Re: org-mode tutorial questionaire

[Friedrich Delgado Friedrichs]

Hi

Alexander Poslavsky schrieb:
> > I was wondering if you could elaborate on the following. Are you
> > suggesting that new users should never use M-x customize?
> Well, I don't know about anybody else, but I *never* use it. I think it is awful. But then, what do I know….
---Zitatende---

Maybe that's a bit opinionated for a tutorial then. I do use M-x
customize and I believe it has its merits.

-- 
        Friedrich Delgado Friedrichs <friedel@nomaden.org>
                             TauPan on Ircnet and Freenode ;)

Re: Re: org-mode tutorial questionaire

[David Maus]

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Friedrich Delgado Friedrichs wrote:
>Hi

>Alexander Poslavsky schrieb:
>> > I was wondering if you could elaborate on the following. Are you
>> > suggesting that new users should never use M-x customize?
>> Well, I don't know about anybody else, but I *never* use it. I think it is awful. But then, what do I know….
>---Zitatende---

>Maybe that's a bit opinionated for a tutorial then. I do use M-x
>customize and I believe it has its merits.

I only use M-x customize to look what lever I can pull but pointing at
customize for a user who is new to Emacs, Org and, in turn, elisp
seems to me a really good sugestion.  Not just for the user, but maybe
for the authors of the tutorial: You don't have to explain elisp when
talking about customization options.

 -- David

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Re: Re: org-mode tutorial questionaire

[Alexander Poslavsky]

On Mar 23, 2010, at 10:43 PM, David Maus wrote:

> Friedrich Delgado Friedrichs wrote:
>> Hi
> 
>> Alexander Poslavsky schrieb:
>>>> I was wondering if you could elaborate on the following. Are you
>>>> suggesting that new users should never use M-x customize?
>>> Well, I don't know about anybody else, but I *never* use it. I think it is awful. But then, what do I know….
>> ---Zitatende---
> 
>> Maybe that's a bit opinionated for a tutorial then. I do use M-x
>> customize and I believe it has its merits.
> 
> I only use M-x customize to look what lever I can pull but pointing at
> customize for a user who is new to Emacs, Org and, in turn, elisp
> seems to me a really good sugestion.  Not just for the user, but maybe
> for the authors of the tutorial: You don't have to explain elisp when
> talking about customization options.


ok, it looks that the general opinion is a lot more positive then I thought. I'll change it in the tutorial, and see if other things can be done using M-x customize.

thanks for the remarks, keep them coming,
alex

Re: Re: org-mode tutorial questionaire

[Thomas S. Dye]

On Mar 23, 2010, at 10:50 AM, Friedrich Delgado Friedrichs wrote:

> Hi
>
> Alexander Poslavsky schrieb:
>>> I was wondering if you could elaborate on the following. Are you
>>> suggesting that new users should never use M-x customize?
>> Well, I don't know about anybody else, but I *never* use it. I  
>> think it is awful. But then, what do I know….
> ---Zitatende---
>
> Maybe that's a bit opinionated for a tutorial then. I do use M-x
> customize and I believe it has its merits.
>
> -- 
>        Friedrich Delgado Friedrichs <friedel@nomaden.org>
>                             TauPan on Ircnet and Freenode ;)
>

Aloha all,

I think Alexander's manual is an excellent start and will be helpful  
to newbies.

To be successful, the manual will have to make many choices for the  
newbie, among them whether or not to use customize.  It will be very  
different from the usual manual, which is designed to expose full  
complexity.

IMHO, the goal of describing a sensible path to productive use of Org- 
mode should be the highest priority.  When there is the urge to say to  
the newbie, "you can do this or that", it should be avoided.  Instead,  
the template should be "do it this way."

I agree with Friedrich that customize has merits (though I don't use  
it).  I like Alexander's vivid language, but agree with Friedrich that  
it doesn't need to be so opinionated in this case.  Perhaps the  
template for these alternate paths might be a footnote "there is  
[[another way][link]] to do this."

All the best,
Tom

Re: org-mode tutorial questionaire

[Matt Lundin]

Alexander Poslavsky <alexander.poslavsky@gmail.com> writes:

> On Mar 23, 2010, at 8:42 PM, Matt Lundin wrote:
>
>> Hi Alex,
>> 
>> Alexander Poslavsky <alexander.poslavsky@gmail.com> writes:
>> 
>>> There is a new tutorial on worg: http://orgmode.org/worg/org-tutorials/
>>> org4beginners.php. The idea is to write a tutorial for somebody who is
>>> new to org-mode.
>> ...
>>> For everybody:
>>> -What kind of tutorial would be the most useful? 
>>> -What in your experience people find confusing?
>> 
>> Thanks for taking the time to put this on Worg. I wish I had had such a
>> concise summary of the various flavors of emacs on different platforms
>> when I started exploring org-mode.
>> 
>> I was wondering if you could elaborate on the following. Are you
>> suggesting that new users should never use M-x customize?

> Well, I don't know about anybody else, but I *never* use it. I think
> it is awful. But then, what do I know….

I don't use it much now, either. But when I was learning emacs, it eased
me gently into the wild and woolly world of lists, symbols, cons cells,
and the like. In addition, M-x customize-group [RET] org is a nice way
to browse org-mode's wealth of options and internal documentation. And
Carsten has put a tremendous amount of work into coding all those
exemplary defcustoms in the org*.el files. :)

>> 
>> 3. Why C-x b 2.org --> M-x org-mode --> C-x C-s as the recommended
>>   workflow? Once the configuration file is set up, C-x C-f 2.org will
>>   bring one right into org-mode.
> As far as I can see, that is actually what the doc says:
>
>    Save the file (*C-x s*) as 2.org, and you will notice that the
>    colors change, syntax highlighting is turned on, and Emacs
>    understands you are working in org-mode.
>
> but if it is not clear, let me know what paragraph you are refering
> to.

Sorry if my question was unclear. I'm simply wondering whether we should
recommend a multi-step process to new users (i.e., C-x b to create a new
buffer and then C-x C-s to activate org-mode) when C-x C-f (find-file)
both creates a new buffer and activates org-mode immediately. Of course,
all this is a matter of taste (as is almost everything in emacs)! But I
suspect a new user might find it a bit crufty if org-mode commands don't
work *until* the buffer is first saved. Also, C-x b (switch-to-buffer)
followed by C-x s typically requires you to provide two names (first the
buffer and then the file), whereas C-x C-f does everything at once.

Thanks again for all the work you put into this.

Best,
Matt

Re: org-mode tutorial questionaire

[Alexander Poslavsky]

On Mar 24, 2010, at 12:46 AM, Matt Lundin wrote:
<snip>
> 
> Sorry if my question was unclear. I'm simply wondering whether we should
> recommend a multi-step process to new users (i.e., C-x b to create a new
> buffer and then C-x C-s to activate org-mode) when C-x C-f (find-file)
> both creates a new buffer and activates org-mode immediately. Of course,
> all this is a matter of taste (as is almost everything in emacs)! But I
> suspect a new user might find it a bit crufty if org-mode commands don't
> work *until* the buffer is first saved. Also, C-x b (switch-to-buffer)
> followed by C-x s typically requires you to provide two names (first the
> buffer and then the file), whereas C-x C-f does everything at once.
<snip>
You are probably right, leaving out C-x b, will make it just a bit simpler,

thanks,
alex

Re: org-mode tutorial questionaire

[Richard Riley]

Matt Lundin <mdl@imapmail.org> writes:

> Hi Alex,
>
> Alexander Poslavsky <alexander.poslavsky@gmail.com> writes:
>
>> There is a new tutorial on worg: http://orgmode.org/worg/org-tutorials/
>> org4beginners.php. The idea is to write a tutorial for somebody who is
>> new to org-mode.
> ...
>> For everybody:
>> -What kind of tutorial would be the most useful? 
>> -What in your experience people find confusing?
>
> Thanks for taking the time to put this on Worg. I wish I had had such a
> concise summary of the various flavors of emacs on different platforms
> when I started exploring org-mode.
>
> I was wondering if you could elaborate on the following. Are you
> suggesting that new users should never use M-x customize?

As a general comment on this : I used to hand code all my
customisations. And ran into terrible problems somewhere along the
line. Now anything that has a customise interface, I use that interface
and have had no such problems anymore. The downside of course is that
your customisations are not grouped "logically" with comments -but, for
me anyway, using the customisation interface lends itself to much more
trustworthy code.

>
> ,----
> | The biggest pain, when you just begin with Emacs, is the configuration.
> | There is not really a menu for it (you might later hear there is, but
> | they are lying, that menu is really there to trap innocent people), you
> | need to edit a text-file.
> `----
>
> A few comments:
>
> 1. Some of the "step-by-step" instructions might be a bit easier to
>    follow in list format (rather than paragraphs).
>
> 2. If I were reading the tutorial for the first time, I might conclude
>    that I had to place "#-*- mode: org -*-" at the top of all my org
>    files, even after configuring auto-mode-alist.
>
> 3. Why C-x b 2.org --> M-x org-mode --> C-x C-s as the recommended
>    workflow? Once the configuration file is set up, C-x C-f 2.org will
>    bring one right into org-mode.
>
> Thanks again for all the work you've put into this.
>
> Best,
> Matt
>
> _______________________________________________
> Emacs-orgmode mailing list
> Please use `Reply All' to send replies to the list.
> Emacs-orgmode@gnu.org
> http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/emacs-orgmode
>

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Re: org-mode tutorial questionaire

[Bernt Hansen]

Richard Riley <rileyrgdev@gmail.com> writes:

> Matt Lundin <mdl@imapmail.org> writes:
>
>> Hi Alex,
>>
>> Alexander Poslavsky <alexander.poslavsky@gmail.com> writes:
>>
>>> There is a new tutorial on worg: http://orgmode.org/worg/org-tutorials/
>>> org4beginners.php. The idea is to write a tutorial for somebody who is
>>> new to org-mode.
>> ...
>>> For everybody:
>>> -What kind of tutorial would be the most useful? 
>>> -What in your experience people find confusing?
>>
>> Thanks for taking the time to put this on Worg. I wish I had had such a
>> concise summary of the various flavors of emacs on different platforms
>> when I started exploring org-mode.
>>
>> I was wondering if you could elaborate on the following. Are you
>> suggesting that new users should never use M-x customize?
>
> As a general comment on this : I used to hand code all my
> customisations. And ran into terrible problems somewhere along the
> line. Now anything that has a customise interface, I use that interface
> and have had no such problems anymore. The downside of course is that
> your customisations are not grouped "logically" with comments -but, for
> me anyway, using the customisation interface lends itself to much more
> trustworthy code.

I also use customize extensively -- wherever it is available.  I don't
have to worry about the exact syntax of the value of the variable - I
can just use the customize interface and pick what I want and move on to
more productive things.

I used to hand code variables as Richard did but found I wasted a heck
of a lot more time fiddling with the syntax of a variable doing that
instead of just setting it and forgetting it with the customize
interface.  The customize interface that Carsten has put together also
makes it easy to see all of the options for a variable in org-mode.

Some variables need to be set before org-mode is loaded (when using
setq) but as I understand it this isn't the case for customizations.

Regards,
Bernt

PS.

I keep my ~/.emacs -> ~/git/emacs/emacs.el and ~/git/emacs/custom.el
files in a git repository (~/git/emacs) so I can commit changes to these
files and add meaningful comments about the reason for the change in the
commit message.  This lets me easily experiment with changing half a
dozen variables and not worrying about remembering the old values in
case I want to go back.  Git has the information and it's easy to
restore the old values for any point in the git history.  This also lets
me synchronize variable changes to my laptop so my on-the-road org-mode
setup is identical to my workstation.

Re: org-mode tutorial questionaire

[Richard Riley]

Bernt Hansen <bernt@norang.ca> writes:

> Richard Riley <rileyrgdev@gmail.com> writes:
>
>> Matt Lundin <mdl@imapmail.org> writes:
>>
>>> Hi Alex,
>>>
>>> Alexander Poslavsky <alexander.poslavsky@gmail.com> writes:
>>>
>>>> There is a new tutorial on worg: http://orgmode.org/worg/org-tutorials/
>>>> org4beginners.php. The idea is to write a tutorial for somebody who is
>>>> new to org-mode.
>>> ...
>>>> For everybody:
>>>> -What kind of tutorial would be the most useful? 
>>>> -What in your experience people find confusing?
>>>
>>> Thanks for taking the time to put this on Worg. I wish I had had such a
>>> concise summary of the various flavors of emacs on different platforms
>>> when I started exploring org-mode.
>>>
>>> I was wondering if you could elaborate on the following. Are you
>>> suggesting that new users should never use M-x customize?
>>
>> As a general comment on this : I used to hand code all my
>> customisations. And ran into terrible problems somewhere along the
>> line. Now anything that has a customise interface, I use that interface
>> and have had no such problems anymore. The downside of course is that
>> your customisations are not grouped "logically" with comments -but, for
>> me anyway, using the customisation interface lends itself to much more
>> trustworthy code.
>
> I also use customize extensively -- wherever it is available.  I don't
> have to worry about the exact syntax of the value of the variable - I
> can just use the customize interface and pick what I want and move on to
> more productive things.
>
> I used to hand code variables as Richard did but found I wasted a heck
> of a lot more time fiddling with the syntax of a variable doing that
> instead of just setting it and forgetting it with the customize
> interface.  The customize interface that Carsten has put together also
> makes it easy to see all of the options for a variable in org-mode.
>
> Some variables need to be set before org-mode is loaded (when using
> setq) but as I understand it this isn't the case for customizations.
>
> Regards,
> Bernt
>
> PS.
>
> I keep my ~/.emacs -> ~/git/emacs/emacs.el and ~/git/emacs/custom.el
> files in a git repository (~/git/emacs) so I can commit changes to these
> files and add meaningful comments about the reason for the change in the
> commit message.  This lets me easily experiment with changing half a
> dozen variables and not worrying about remembering the old values in
> case I want to go back.  Git has the information and it's easy to
> restore the old values for any point in the git history.  This also lets
> me synchronize variable changes to my laptop so my on-the-road org-mode
> setup is identical to my workstation.
>

As a side note to this is for those not familiar with git, its pretty
simple to manage a remote git repo using ssh. When on the road or
dealing with multiple PCs around the "globe" (!) this can be priceless.

I maintain my own "sparse" repo on my mail server machine. Whenever I
update my ~/.emacs.d/emacs-init.org file or my custom.el in the same dir
I push it to the remote shh repo too. Handy as to then sync my laptop or
the machine at work.

Needless to say, all my org-files are in there too.

The only thing that still taxes my pickled brain is when I need to
merge. The git terminology for fast forwards etc confuses me each  and
every time ;)

-- 
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Re: org-mode tutorial questionaire

[Bernt Hansen]

Richard Riley <rileyrg@googlemail.com> writes:

> Bernt Hansen <bernt@norang.ca> writes:
>
>> Richard Riley <rileyrgdev@gmail.com> writes:
>>
>> I keep my ~/.emacs -> ~/git/emacs/emacs.el and ~/git/emacs/custom.el
>> files in a git repository (~/git/emacs) so I can commit changes to these
>> files and add meaningful comments about the reason for the change in the
>> commit message.  This lets me easily experiment with changing half a
>> dozen variables and not worrying about remembering the old values in
>> case I want to go back.  Git has the information and it's easy to
>> restore the old values for any point in the git history.  This also lets
>> me synchronize variable changes to my laptop so my on-the-road org-mode
>> setup is identical to my workstation.
>>
>
> As a side note to this is for those not familiar with git, its pretty
> simple to manage a remote git repo using ssh. When on the road or
> dealing with multiple PCs around the "globe" (!) this can be priceless.
>
> I maintain my own "sparse" repo on my mail server machine. Whenever I
> update my ~/.emacs.d/emacs-init.org file or my custom.el in the same dir
> I push it to the remote shh repo too. Handy as to then sync my laptop or
> the machine at work.
>
> Needless to say, all my org-files are in there too.
>
> The only thing that still taxes my pickled brain is when I need to
> merge. The git terminology for fast forwards etc confuses me each  and
> every time ;)

Hi Richard,

I use a script for keeping my git repositories up to date on multiple
machines.  The source is posted here:
http://doc.norang.ca/org-mode.html#git-sync

This script makes a few assumptions about my repositories
  - All repositories have a remote 'norang' which is the bare repository
    I push to and fetch from
  - All repositories live in a known place (~/git for me)
    (I have subdirectories under ~/git for grouping repositories
    together and the script finds every repository by looking for the
    .git directory)

You can change both of these locations at the top of the script.

git-sync finds each repository on the system you run it from and
synchronizes multiple branches in each repositories with the remote.  It
figures out if the branch can be moved (due to a fast-forward) and moves
those refs automatically for all branches in the repository.  The only
time you need to manually do something is if you need a merge because
you modified the same branch on two machines without pushing the changes
to the bare repository.

This works great for me (I keep over 30 repositories in sync with my
laptop -- I thought I had 35 repositories I manage this way so just for
fun I decided to count them and there are 73!).  I don't need to think
about what changed, I just hack and commit and run git-sync before I
switch machines.  Any branch that has been pushed to the remote will be
synchronized by the script and local branches that exist only in the
working repository are ignored.

HTH,
Bernt

Re: Re: org-mode tutorial questionaire

[Ian Barton]

>>
>> I keep my ~/.emacs -> ~/git/emacs/emacs.el and ~/git/emacs/custom.el
>> files in a git repository (~/git/emacs) so I can commit changes to these
>> files and add meaningful comments about the reason for the change in the
>> commit message.  This lets me easily experiment with changing half a
>> dozen variables and not worrying about remembering the old values in
>> case I want to go back.  Git has the information and it's easy to
>> restore the old values for any point in the git history.  This also lets
>> me synchronize variable changes to my laptop so my on-the-road org-mode
>> setup is identical to my workstation.
>>
> 
I keep my stuff in git too, but recently I have found Dropbox very 
useful. Once I discovered how to install it on my server it meant that 
all my config files were automatically kept in sync on my computers. in 
fact Dropbox is still great even if you don't run your own server.

Git is still very useful for letting you easily go back if you make a 
mistake, or want to start over again from an earlier version.

Ian.

Re: org-mode tutorial questionaire

[Austin Frank]

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On Wed, Mar 24 2010, Ian Barton wrote:

> I keep my stuff in git too, but recently I have found Dropbox very
> useful. Once I discovered how to install it on my server it meant that
> all my config files were automatically kept in sync on my
> computers. in fact Dropbox is still great even if you don't run your
> own server.
>
> Git is still very useful for letting you easily go back if you make a
> mistake, or want to start over again from an earlier version.

Even better, make a git repo in your dropbox directory.  Great tastes
that taste great together!

(There's a valid question as to whether the git repo in dropbox should
be a bare repo to facilitate pushing and pulling, or a working repo so
that you can use it directly.  Suggestions on this point are welcome).

/au

-- 
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http://aufrank.net
GPG Public Key (D7398C2F): http://aufrank.net/personal.asc

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Re: Re: org-mode tutorial questionaire

[Ian Barton]

>> I keep my stuff in git too, but recently I have found Dropbox very
>> useful. Once I discovered how to install it on my server it meant that
>> all my config files were automatically kept in sync on my
>> computers. in fact Dropbox is still great even if you don't run your
>> own server.
>>
>> Git is still very useful for letting you easily go back if you make a
>> mistake, or want to start over again from an earlier version.
> 
> Even better, make a git repo in your dropbox directory.  Great tastes
> that taste great together!
> 
> (There's a valid question as to whether the git repo in dropbox should
> be a bare repo to facilitate pushing and pulling, or a working repo so
> that you can use it directly.  Suggestions on this point are welcome).
> 

I have a .git repo in my org folder inside Dropbox. It's not a bare 
repo,  but I do keep a bare repo on a server and I have a cron job that 
automatically does a commit and pushes to my bare repo once a day.

Ian.