RSI

RSI

[Samuel Wales]

Orgers,

Repetitive strain injury is real and important.

One thing that you can do is to ensure that you have a keyboard that
has modifier keys on both sides.  You should pound a new habit into
your cerebellum: use two hands.

For example, c-c c-o should look like this:

  r hand presses ctrl
  l hand presses c
  let go
  l hand presses ctrl
  r hand presses o
  let go

This is obviously inefficient, but it is the correct thing.

Ideally, the most important c-c and c-x operations would be on the
lhs.  That way, you can hold down ctrl and press the two keys.

Many (maybe even most) will find this idea strange.  But I urge all of
you to try it for a few months.


On 2009-09-01, PT <spamfilteraccount@gmail.com> wrote:
> Matt Lundin <mdl <at> imapmail.org> writes:
>>
>> An aside: Swapping caps-lock and control makes C-c a very convenient
>> key combination.
>>
>
> If things come that one can also configure e.g. the right control
> key as a special prefix key which makes such combinations even
> more convenient, because unlike "C-c a" you can press "Rctrl a"
> with two hands.
>
> In case of right handed people the right control key is usually
> unused, so it's practical to use it for something else than it's
> original purpose.
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Emacs-orgmode mailing list
> Remember: use `Reply All' to send replies to the list.
> Emacs-orgmode@gnu.org
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>


-- 
Myalgic encephalomyelitis causes death (Jason et al. 2006)
and severe suffering.  Conflicts of interest are destroying
research.  What people "know" is wrong.  Silence = death.
http://www.meactionuk.org.uk/What_Is_ME_What_Is_CFS.htm

Re: RSI

[Samuel Wales]

Clarification.

On 2009-09-01, Samuel Wales <samologist@gmail.com> wrote:
> Ideally, the most important c-c and c-x operations would be on the
> lhs.  That way, you can hold down ctrl and press the two keys.

I mean c-c c-letter not c-c letter here.

-- 
Myalgic encephalomyelitis causes death (Jason et al. 2006)
and severe suffering.  Conflicts of interest are destroying
research.  What people "know" is wrong.  Silence = death.
http://www.meactionuk.org.uk/What_Is_ME_What_Is_CFS.htm

Re: RSI

[Keith Lancaster]

Emacs can definitely lead to RSI - Richard Stallman, the creator,  
developed it.

I am quite prone to RSI, which led me to VIM due to its modal  
operation (very few modifier key combos). I used VIM for quite a while  
and did not have any issues, but org-mode pulled me to emacs. I now  
use a kinesis keyboard and have no RSI issues. The keyboard combined  
with the idea expressed below that you use different hands when  
pressing control key combinations has really helped. The Kinesis puts  
all the control keys (control, meta, command) on your thumbs. Its  
expensive, but worth every penny to me at least. Check them out at http://www.kinesis-ergo.com/

Keith


On Sep 1, 2009, at 1:11 PM, Samuel Wales wrote:

> Orgers,
>
> Repetitive strain injury is real and important.
>
> One thing that you can do is to ensure that you have a keyboard that
> has modifier keys on both sides.  You should pound a new habit into
> your cerebellum: use two hands.
>
> For example, c-c c-o should look like this:
>
>  r hand presses ctrl
>  l hand presses c
>  let go
>  l hand presses ctrl
>  r hand presses o
>  let go
>
> This is obviously inefficient, but it is the correct thing.
>
> Ideally, the most important c-c and c-x operations would be on the
> lhs.  That way, you can hold down ctrl and press the two keys.
>
> Many (maybe even most) will find this idea strange.  But I urge all of
> you to try it for a few months.
>
>
> On 2009-09-01, PT <spamfilteraccount@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Matt Lundin <mdl <at> imapmail.org> writes:
>>>
>>> An aside: Swapping caps-lock and control makes C-c a very convenient
>>> key combination.
>>>
>>
>> If things come that one can also configure e.g. the right control
>> key as a special prefix key which makes such combinations even
>> more convenient, because unlike "C-c a" you can press "Rctrl a"
>> with two hands.
>>
>> In case of right handed people the right control key is usually
>> unused, so it's practical to use it for something else than it's
>> original purpose.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Emacs-orgmode mailing list
>> Remember: use `Reply All' to send replies to the list.
>> Emacs-orgmode@gnu.org
>> http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/emacs-orgmode
>>
>
>
> -- 
> Myalgic encephalomyelitis causes death (Jason et al. 2006)
> and severe suffering.  Conflicts of interest are destroying
> research.  What people "know" is wrong.  Silence = death.
> http://www.meactionuk.org.uk/What_Is_ME_What_Is_CFS.htm
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Emacs-orgmode mailing list
> Remember: use `Reply All' to send replies to the list.
> Emacs-orgmode@gnu.org
> http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/emacs-orgmode

Keith Lancaster
klancaster1957@mac.com

Re: RSI

[PT]

Samuel Wales <samologist <at> gmail.com> writes:

> 
> One thing that you can do is to ensure that you have a keyboard that
> has modifier keys on both sides.  You should pound a new habit into
> your cerebellum: use two hands.
> 
> ...
> 
> Many (maybe even most) will find this idea strange.  But I urge all of
> you to try it for a few months.


I agree it's a good idea. 

For those who think this approach is too radical I recommend
trying out sticky keys as an alternative which also alleviates a
bit the effects of the finger killing C-x/C-c and similar
combinations:

http://www.emacswiki.org/emacs/StickyModifiers

Re: RSI

[Matt Lundin]

Samuel Wales <samologist@gmail.com> writes:

> Repetitive strain injury is real and important.
>
> One thing that you can do is to ensure that you have a keyboard that
> has modifier keys on both sides.  You should pound a new habit into
> your cerebellum: use two hands.
>
> For example, c-c c-o should look like this:
>
>   r hand presses ctrl
>   l hand presses c
>   let go
>   l hand presses ctrl
>   r hand presses o
>   let go
>
> This is obviously inefficient, but it is the correct thing.
>
> Ideally, the most important c-c and c-x operations would be on the
> lhs.  That way, you can hold down ctrl and press the two keys.
>
> Many (maybe even most) will find this idea strange.  But I urge all of
> you to try it for a few months.

This is no doubt the correct method, but it is not realistic for many
users given the idiosyncratic layouts of keyboards today. Many of the
laptops I've used have had a misplaced or non-existent right control
key. Thus, short of using viper, the only solution that works for me is
to use the Caps Lock key as Control. With that slight modification, I
find emacs controls *very* comfortable (perhaps even as comfortable than
vim). Once I made that switch, RSI issues disappeared virtually
overnight.

Now, any RSI issues I experience come from using n and p or j and k
repeatedly.

Needless to say, YMMV.

Best,
Matt

Re: Re: RSI

[Eric S Fraga, Eric S Fraga]

At Tue, 01 Sep 2009 15:50:08 -0400,
Matt Lundin wrote:
> key. Thus, short of using viper, the only solution that works for me is
> to use the Caps Lock key as Control. With that slight modification, I
> find emacs controls *very* comfortable (perhaps even as comfortable than

Yes, making caps lock act as control is key to using emacs without
pain (for me).  However, it's not a full solution for some keyboards
which don't have a caps lock key.  Therefore, I'm intrigued by your
reference to viper: is it possible to use, constructively and easily,
viper with org-mode?  If so, any pointers on how to accomplish this
would be fantastic!  A modal approach to writing/editing is fine with
me.

Re: Re: RSI

[Alan E. Davis]

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My 2 cents' worth.

In the 80's I learned to use word star with an XT keyboard, with function
keys down the left side and Ctl and Shift or Caps Lock opposite from the AT
keyboard.  I felt at the time, the AT keyboard was a step backwards.

Just this year, I tried to find an XT keyboard, style but wasn't able to
locate one.  I'd swap Caps Lock with Ctrl on my own keyboards, except I have
three or four computers I use routinely, including a laptop, and it would
just be more aggravation.

Any how, I wondered if the XT style keyboard would work well with emacs, and
how or whether this would affect this RSI issue.


Alan

You can know the name of a bird in all the languages of the world,  but when
you're finished, you'll know absolutely nothing whatever about the bird...
So let's look at the bird and see what it's doing---that's what counts.

   ----Richard Feynman



On Mon, Sep 7, 2009 at 9:48 AM, Eric S Fraga <ucecesf@ucl.ac.uk> wrote:

> At Tue, 01 Sep 2009 15:50:08 -0400,
> Matt Lundin wrote:
> > key. Thus, short of using viper, the only solution that works for me is
> > to use the Caps Lock key as Control. With that slight modification, I
> > find emacs controls *very* comfortable (perhaps even as comfortable than
>
> Yes, making caps lock act as control is key to using emacs without
> pain (for me).  However, it's not a full solution for some keyboards
> which don't have a caps lock key.  Therefore, I'm intrigued by your
> reference to viper: is it possible to use, constructively and easily,
> viper with org-mode?  If so, any pointers on how to accomplish this
> would be fantastic!  A modal approach to writing/editing is fine with
> me.
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Emacs-orgmode mailing list
> Remember: use `Reply All' to send replies to the list.
> Emacs-orgmode@gnu.org
> http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/emacs-orgmode
>

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Re: RSI

[B Smith-Mannschott]

A few tips from an emacs hand who has had issues with repetitive
strain in the past:

The first thing I did after starting my first "real job" (years ago,
when my RSI was pretty bad and my employer-supplied keyboard was in
violation of the geneva conventions):

1. I got a kinesis contoured keyboard (like the "Kinesis Advantage"
I'm typing on now.) It places C- and M- (Alt key) under your thumbs.
(You could even assign them to foot pedals, though I never managed due
to lack of rhythm -- guess I should have taken drumming classes at
school.) The layout is completely programmable without additional
software. In short: it's the ultimate emacs keybaord.

2. More recently, I had a flare up (Apple's wireless mouse is the work
of the devil, for my hands at least.) It was then that I discovered
"Sticky Keys".

Sticky keys takes some getting used to. It makes every modifier key
work a little like caps lock. Sounds horrible, doesn't it? Well, it's
not really. Basically, if you press control once, it "locks" control
down for the next keystroke only, after which point the keyboard
returns to normal. Press control twice, and it locks down until you
release it with a third press.

C-x C-f

Used to be: press and hold control. Press and release x. press and
release f. Release control.
Now it's Press and release control twice. Press and release x. press
and release f. Press and release control.

This turns out to be easier on my hands because I don't find myself
contorting my hands across the keyboard while I try to hold down more
than one key at a time. I have sticky keys turned on on all my
computers, except for the one at work where I have the kinesis
keyboard.

 3. I've rebound caps lock to control on all my keyboards (apart from
the kinesis, where I have caps lock bound to the windows key.)

4. I have a "happy hacking" keyboard, which has control where caps
lock is on an AT keyboard (and no caps key). The happy hacking
keyboard has the drawback that it has no right control key. (Sticky
keys helps here too.)

// Ben

Re: RSI

[Daniel Martins]

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Ben,

Please publish your .emacs configuration!

Daniel

2009/9/7 B Smith-Mannschott <bsmith.occs@gmail.com>

> A few tips from an emacs hand who has had issues with repetitive
> strain in the past:
>
> The first thing I did after starting my first "real job" (years ago,
> when my RSI was pretty bad and my employer-supplied keyboard was in
> violation of the geneva conventions):
>
> 1. I got a kinesis contoured keyboard (like the "Kinesis Advantage"
> I'm typing on now.) It places C- and M- (Alt key) under your thumbs.
> (You could even assign them to foot pedals, though I never managed due
> to lack of rhythm -- guess I should have taken drumming classes at
> school.) The layout is completely programmable without additional
> software. In short: it's the ultimate emacs keybaord.
>
> 2. More recently, I had a flare up (Apple's wireless mouse is the work
> of the devil, for my hands at least.) It was then that I discovered
> "Sticky Keys".
>
> Sticky keys takes some getting used to. It makes every modifier key
> work a little like caps lock. Sounds horrible, doesn't it? Well, it's
> not really. Basically, if you press control once, it "locks" control
> down for the next keystroke only, after which point the keyboard
> returns to normal. Press control twice, and it locks down until you
> release it with a third press.
>
> C-x C-f
>
> Used to be: press and hold control. Press and release x. press and
> release f. Release control.
> Now it's Press and release control twice. Press and release x. press
> and release f. Press and release control.
>
> This turns out to be easier on my hands because I don't find myself
> contorting my hands across the keyboard while I try to hold down more
> than one key at a time. I have sticky keys turned on on all my
> computers, except for the one at work where I have the kinesis
> keyboard.
>
>  3. I've rebound caps lock to control on all my keyboards (apart from
> the kinesis, where I have caps lock bound to the windows key.)
>
> 4. I have a "happy hacking" keyboard, which has control where caps
> lock is on an AT keyboard (and no caps key). The happy hacking
> keyboard has the drawback that it has no right control key. (Sticky
> keys helps here too.)
>
> // Ben
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Emacs-orgmode mailing list
> Remember: use `Reply All' to send replies to the list.
> Emacs-orgmode@gnu.org
> http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/emacs-orgmode
>

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Re: RSI

[B Smith-Mannschott]

On Mon, Sep 7, 2009 at 19:16, Daniel Martins<danielemc@gmail.com> wrote:
> Ben,
>
> Please publish your .emacs configuration!
>
> Daniel

I think you've misunderstood. There's no emacs magic that makes what I
describe below work, It's all hardware and features built into my
various operating systems. (more below).

// Ben

> 2009/9/7 B Smith-Mannschott <bsmith.occs@gmail.com>
>>
>> A few tips from an emacs hand who has had issues with repetitive
>> strain in the past:
>>
>> The first thing I did after starting my first "real job" (years ago,
>> when my RSI was pretty bad and my employer-supplied keyboard was in
>> violation of the geneva conventions):
>>
>> 1. I got a kinesis contoured keyboard (like the "Kinesis Advantage"
>> I'm typing on now.) It places C- and M- (Alt key) under your thumbs.
>> (You could even assign them to foot pedals, though I never managed due
>> to lack of rhythm -- guess I should have taken drumming classes at
>> school.) The layout is completely programmable without additional
>> software. In short: it's the ultimate emacs keybaord.
>>
>> 2. More recently, I had a flare up (Apple's wireless mouse is the work
>> of the devil, for my hands at least.) It was then that I discovered
>> "Sticky Keys".
>>
>> Sticky keys takes some getting used to. It makes every modifier key
>> work a little like caps lock. Sounds horrible, doesn't it? Well, it's
>> not really. Basically, if you press control once, it "locks" control
>> down for the next keystroke only, after which point the keyboard
>> returns to normal. Press control twice, and it locks down until you
>> release it with a third press.
>>
>> C-x C-f
>>
>> Used to be: press and hold control. Press and release x. press and
>> release f. Release control.
>> Now it's Press and release control twice. Press and release x. press
>> and release f. Press and release control.
>>
>> This turns out to be easier on my hands because I don't find myself
>> contorting my hands across the keyboard while I try to hold down more
>> than one key at a time. I have sticky keys turned on on all my
>> computers, except for the one at work where I have the kinesis
>> keyboard.

I've found that recent versions of windows (XP and later, possibly
earlier too), Mac OS X and the Gnome Desktop all support some form of
"sticky keys". I found it buggy in in Ubuntu 8.04 and 8.10 but it
works reliably in 9.04.

[The specific problem is this: under 8.04 and 8.10 the option "disable
sticky keys if two keys are pressed together" doesn't work. clearing
this checkbox does not write through to the corresponding gnome
registry setting. Editing of said setting by hand is the workaround.
Also, attaching an external keyboard causes Gnome to forget that it's
supposed to be using sticky keys.]

>>  3. I've rebound caps lock to control on all my keyboards (apart from
>> the kinesis, where I have caps lock bound to the windows key.)

The ability to rebind caps to control is built into both Mac OS X and
Ubuntu (GNOME). In years past I've used a registry hack on windows to
achieve the same affect. I don't anymore because I use my Kinesis with
my windows machine and Kinesis does rebinding in hardware.

>> 4. I have a "happy hacking" keyboard, which has control where caps
>> lock is on an AT keyboard (and no caps key). The happy hacking
>> keyboard has the drawback that it has no right control key. (Sticky
>> keys helps here too.)
>>
>> // Ben
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Emacs-orgmode mailing list
>> Remember: use `Reply All' to send replies to the list.
>> Emacs-orgmode@gnu.org
>> http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/emacs-orgmode
>
>

Re: RSI

[PT]

Daniel Martins <danielemc <at> gmail.com> writes:

> Sticky keys takes some getting used to. It makes every modifier key
> work a little like caps lock. Sounds horrible, doesn't it? Well, it's
> not really. Basically, if you press control once, it "locks" control
> down for the next keystroke only, after which point the keyboard
> returns to normal. Press control twice, and it locks down until you
> release it with a third press.
> C-x C-f
> Used to be: press and hold control. Press and release x. press and
> release f. Release control.
> Now it's Press and release control twice. Press and release x. press
> and release f. Press and release control.

I don't know which implementation you use, but with Windows' built-in 
sticky key setup there is no change compared to the usual order of keys:


press/release ctrl, press/release x, press/release ctrl, press/release f


No need to press and release control twice at the beginning, so it's the
same number of keypresses as the usual method, you only need to pay
attention you release the previous key before pressing the next one.

> This turns out to be easier on my hands because I don't find myself
> contorting my hands across the keyboard while I try to hold down more
> than one key at a time. 

Very true. Two keys should never be pressed with the same hand at the 
same time. 

Re: Re: RSI

[B Smith-Mannschott]

On Tue, Sep 8, 2009 at 07:50, PT<spamfilteraccount@gmail.com> wrote:
> Daniel Martins <danielemc <at> gmail.com> writes:
>
>> Sticky keys takes some getting used to. It makes every modifier key
>> work a little like caps lock. Sounds horrible, doesn't it? Well, it's
>> not really. Basically, if you press control once, it "locks" control
>> down for the next keystroke only, after which point the keyboard
>> returns to normal. Press control twice, and it locks down until you
>> release it with a third press.
>> C-x C-f
>> Used to be: press and hold control. Press and release x. press and
>> release f. Release control.
>> Now it's Press and release control twice. Press and release x. press
>> and release f. Press and release control.
>
> I don't know which implementation you use, but with Windows' built-in
> sticky key setup there is no change compared to the usual order of keys:
>
>
> press/release ctrl, press/release x, press/release ctrl, press/release f
>
> No need to press and release control twice at the beginning, so it's the
> same number of keypresses as the usual method, you only need to pay
> attention you release the previous key before pressing the next one.

yes, you can do it this way too, in fact I usually do for two-key
sequences. You do have the option of "locking down" a modifier key by
pressing it twice. Press once more to release it. Occasionally I find
myself inputting a burst of keystrokes under the same modifier, in
cases like that it can make sense to do this. (Think of it as a
"mode", in the way that word is used among the vi crowd.) I use that
when I'm going to be repeating the same control key binding often,
i.e. when I'm isearching through a document looking at all the
matches:

[ctrl] [s] sometext [ctrl][ctrl] [s] [s] [s] [s] [s] [s] [s] ... [ctrl]

instead of

[ctrl] [s] sometext [ctrl] [s] [ctrl] [s] [ctrl] [s] [ctrl] [ctrl] [s]
[ctrl] [s] [ctrl] [s] [ctrl] [s] ...

// Ben

Re: Re: RSI

[Eric S Fraga]

At Fri, 11 Sep 2009 11:34:27 -0400,
Matthew Lundin wrote:

> Well, I'm sorry to say that org-mode was the reason I abandoned viper.
> It's probably a limitation of mine, but I found it too confusing to go
> back and forth between all the C-c keys and viper's modal commands. I

Thanks Matt.  I kind of expected that to be the case.  Oh well, I'll
stick to standard emacs for now then!

eric

Re: Re: RSI

[Matthew Lundin]

Eric S Fraga <ucecesf@ucl.ac.uk>, Eric S Fraga <ucecesf@ucl.ac.uk>
writes:

> At Tue, 01 Sep 2009 15:50:08 -0400,
> Matt Lundin wrote:
>> key. Thus, short of using viper, the only solution that works for me is
>> to use the Caps Lock key as Control. With that slight modification, I
>> find emacs controls *very* comfortable (perhaps even as comfortable than
>
> Yes, making caps lock act as control is key to using emacs without
> pain (for me).  However, it's not a full solution for some keyboards
> which don't have a caps lock key.  Therefore, I'm intrigued by your
> reference to viper: is it possible to use, constructively and easily,
> viper with org-mode?  If so, any pointers on how to accomplish this
> would be fantastic!  A modal approach to writing/editing is fine with
> me.

Well, I'm sorry to say that org-mode was the reason I abandoned viper.
It's probably a limitation of mine, but I found it too confusing to go
back and forth between all the C-c keys and viper's modal commands. I
also found the behavior of "dd" and the like to be unpredictable when
called on closed outline headings, drawers, etc. I much prefer the
behavior of C-k in org-mode's native keybindings. I imagine there are
others around here who have gotten it working.

IMO, viper is fine for relatively simple text modes. But for more
complex modes, I found it easier to stick with emacs' native
keybindings.

YMMV.

- Matt

Re: RSI

[Michael Brand]

First of all I am interested in improving the use of the modifier keys. To see what my preferences for moving them are read my (cisum) post here
http://forum.colemak.com/viewtopic.php?pid=2552#p2552
and follow both links there.

- Michael


Samuel Wales wrote:
> Orgers,
> 
> Repetitive strain injury is real and important.
> 
> One thing that you can do is to ensure that you have a keyboard that
> has modifier keys on both sides.  You should pound a new habit into
> your cerebellum: use two hands.
> 
> For example, c-c c-o should look like this:
> 
> r hand presses ctrl
> l hand presses c
> let go
> l hand presses ctrl
> r hand presses o
> let go
> 
> This is obviously inefficient, but it is the correct thing.
> 
> Ideally, the most important c-c and c-x operations would be on the
> lhs.  That way, you can hold down ctrl and press the two keys.
> 
> Many (maybe even most) will find this idea strange.  But I urge all of
> you to try it for a few months.

Re: RSI

[Adam Spiers]

On Tue, Sep 01, 2009 at 01:22:13PM -0500, Keith Lancaster wrote:
> Emacs can definitely lead to RSI - Richard Stallman, the creator,
> developed it.
> 
> I am quite prone to RSI, which led me to VIM due to its modal
> operation (very few modifier key combos). I used VIM for quite a
> while and did not have any issues, but org-mode pulled me to emacs.
> I now use a kinesis keyboard and have no RSI issues. The keyboard
> combined with the idea expressed below that you use different hands
> when pressing control key combinations has really helped. The
> Kinesis puts all the control keys (control, meta, command) on your
> thumbs. Its expensive, but worth every penny to me at least. Check
> them out at http://www.kinesis-ergo.

I've come to this discussion a few months late, but I just wanted to
add my strongest recommendation for Kinesis keyboards to Keith's and
Ben's.  Their contoured keyboards have quite simply saved my career
from certain demise:

  http://www.kinesis-ergo.com/contoured.htm

I can't say that about any other piece of electronic kit I've ever
bought, no matter how fancy - when viewed in that light, it transforms
the seemingly crazy investment of several hundred dollars on a couple
of keyboards into a complete no-brainer.

Re: RSI

[Bill Powell]

+++ Adam Spiers [04/11/09 11:22 +0000]:
> On Tue, Sep 01, 2009 at 01:22:13PM -0500, Keith Lancaster wrote:
> > Emacs can definitely lead to RSI - Richard Stallman, the creator,
> > developed it.
> > 
> > I am quite prone to RSI, which led me to VIM due to its modal
> > operation (very few modifier key combos). I used VIM for quite a
> > while and did not have any issues, but org-mode pulled me to emacs.

I'm also late to this discussion, and wanted to mention
viper mode. I've recently migrated to Emacs from Vim --
mostly for org-mode, and I don't think I could survive
without Viper mode. :) Someone mentioned viper earlier in
this thread, and having trouble with it with org-mode.
Actually, I find it works fine. There are a couple gotchas,
like avoiding "dd" for folded items (as mentioned). Use C-w
or M-w to cut/copy a folded item.  And you'll probably want
to configure your .viper file a bit.  

But for me, at least, having spent years in Vim, Viper mode
is well worth it.  Besides, you can always C-z into Emacs
mode if you need to. I don't need to for org-mode, but
occasionally do for other other Emacs things--ledger-mode
reconciling, for instance.

Bill Powell

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