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* Introducing Org-transclusion
@ 2021-10-30 11:51 Noboru Ota
  2021-10-30 12:31 ` Juan Manuel Macías
                   ` (2 more replies)
  0 siblings, 3 replies; 36+ messages in thread
From: Noboru Ota @ 2021-10-30 11:51 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: emacs-orgmode

Hi everyone,

This is my first post to Org mailing list.

I would like to introduce an add-on package I have been developing for
about one year and ask for discussion / advice.

The package is named "Org-transclusion", and is available on GitHub at
https://github.com/nobiot/org-transclusion.  Simply put, it lets you
insert a copy of text content via a file link or ID link within an Org
file.  The GitHub repository contains links short video presentations
and documentation in detail.

Judging from feedback from users, it is used for academic writing such
as PhD dissertation, technical writing with source code embedded as
transclusions, and note taking.  I am not a programmer by trade; I
originally developed it to help me write a book.  It's a very thin volume
on a business topic, which has nothing to do with Emacs or Org mode.

Is this type of add-on packages worth considering for inclusion into
Org?  I am asking this question without knowing the practice of how
these things are considered in this mailing list; apologies if I am
missing the context.  The feedback I have received includes requests for
me to put this discussion forward in this mailing list, so some people
find it useful if Org-transclusion were part of Org.

I am in the process of assigning the copyright to FSF (my email request
has not been responded to, so I might need to do it again).  I would be
also fine to put Org-transclusion on GNU ELPA (or NonGNU ELPA) and see
it to mature before this discussion can be had.  Of course, I would also
understand if there is an outright decision to not consider my request
at this point in time.

I will appreciate your comments and discussions.

Thank you.
Noboru








^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 36+ messages in thread

* Re: Introducing Org-transclusion
  2021-10-30 11:51 Introducing Org-transclusion Noboru Ota
@ 2021-10-30 12:31 ` Juan Manuel Macías
  2021-11-01  9:17   ` Noboru Ota
  2021-10-30 13:59 ` Ihor Radchenko
  2021-11-05 17:11 ` Uwe Brauer
  2 siblings, 1 reply; 36+ messages in thread
From: Juan Manuel Macías @ 2021-10-30 12:31 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Noboru Ota; +Cc: orgmode

Hi Noboru,

Noboru Ota writes:

> I would like to introduce an add-on package I have been developing for
> about one year and ask for discussion / advice.
>
> The package is named "Org-transclusion", and is available on GitHub at
> https://github.com/nobiot/org-transclusion.  Simply put, it lets you
> insert a copy of text content via a file link or ID link within an Org
> file.  The GitHub repository contains links short video presentations
> and documentation in detail.

I installed your package a few months ago and I have to say that it
works quite well, although I have not had, at the moment, the
opportunity to make intensive use of it. What I can say is that the
concept seems very interesting to me. Very nice package.

Best regards,

Juan Manuel 


^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 36+ messages in thread

* Re: Introducing Org-transclusion
  2021-10-30 11:51 Introducing Org-transclusion Noboru Ota
  2021-10-30 12:31 ` Juan Manuel Macías
@ 2021-10-30 13:59 ` Ihor Radchenko
  2021-11-01  9:11   ` Noboru Ota
  2021-11-05 17:11 ` Uwe Brauer
  2 siblings, 1 reply; 36+ messages in thread
From: Ihor Radchenko @ 2021-10-30 13:59 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Noboru Ota; +Cc: emacs-orgmode

Noboru Ota <me@nobiot.com> writes:

> This is my first post to Org mailing list.

Welcome ;)

> Is this type of add-on packages worth considering for inclusion into
> Org?  I am asking this question without knowing the practice of how
> these things are considered in this mailing list; apologies if I am
> missing the context.  The feedback I have received includes requests for
> me to put this discussion forward in this mailing list, so some people
> find it useful if Org-transclusion were part of Org.

You have my +100500 to have this package as part of Org :D

The package may allow several interesting things in Org:

1.  An alternative way to structure headings
    Currently, we have a rigid headline structures in Org and
    alternative tag-based approaches like Org Roam. Headline
    transclusion will allow same subtree under several headings (aka
    file system symlinks).

2. A much faster tangle system. If we can directly transclude and sync
   contents of source blocks with actual programming language buffer,
   C-c ' can trivially support flycheck-mode and provide a more
   IDE-like experience while still benefiting from literate programming
   style.

3. Visible #+INCLUDE directives. I recall multiple requests to be able
   to see the INCLUDEd files right inside source Org buffer.

4. Dynamic Org files like agenda views, but made of transcuded
   headlines. Such files can be kept in Org mode with all its features.

Transculation has been requested many times by different users. Some
relevant links:
- https://emacs.stackexchange.com/questions/51814/embed-org-task-list-from-other-subtree
- https://www.reddit.com/r/emacs/comments/dz5xeb/is_there_a_way_to_include_an_org_file_in_another/
- https://www.reddit.com/r/emacs/comments/flxqei/cloningmirroring_a_region_to_some_other_location/fl22ele/
- https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/emacs-devel/2020-04/msg00141.html
- https://emacs.stackexchange.com/questions/57608/split-code-across-multiple-src-blocks
- https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/help-gnu-emacs/2020-06/msg00151.html
- https://reddit.com/r/emacs/comments/debean/possible_to_embed_another_org_file_or_entry_in_an/]]

Other attempted implementations:
- https://github.com/legalnonsense/org-clones
- https://github.com/magnars/multifiles.el
- https://github.com/vspinu/lentic
- https://github.com/whacked/transclusion-minor-mode

Best,
Ihor


^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 36+ messages in thread

* Re: Introducing Org-transclusion
  2021-10-30 13:59 ` Ihor Radchenko
@ 2021-11-01  9:11   ` Noboru Ota
  2021-11-01 13:24     ` Ihor Radchenko
                       ` (2 more replies)
  0 siblings, 3 replies; 36+ messages in thread
From: Noboru Ota @ 2021-11-01  9:11 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Ihor Radchenko; +Cc: orgmode

Ihor Radchenko <yantar92@gmail.com> writes:
>
> Welcome ;)
>

Thank you.

> You have my +100500 to have this package as part of Org :D

Thank you again :) Is there anything I can/should do to make this
happen?  I would be happy to email the whole package as a "patch" for
code review, if this were the way but I feel that might clutter this
mailing list too much with a large amount of text (?)


> The package may allow several interesting things in Org:
>
> 1.  An alternative way to structure headings
>     Currently, we have a rigid headline structures in Org and
>     alternative tag-based approaches like Org Roam. Headline
>     transclusion will allow same subtree under several headings (aka
>     file system symlinks).

Org-transclusion will be probably of help here. I didn't think it in
this frame (like symlinks) but it has the :level property to control the
heading level of the transclusion, which can be different to the original.


> 2. A much faster tangle system. If we can directly transclude and sync
>    contents of source blocks with actual programming language buffer,
>    C-c ' can trivially support flycheck-mode and provide a more
>    IDE-like experience while still benefiting from literate programming
>    style.

It has ":src lang" property and can transclude a specific range of
source code into Org's source block. It is essentially read-only copy of
the original, and you can use "C-c C-c" as a normal Org source block to
execute/evaluate it.

For flycheck-mode, I am not sure; I don't use it (I use built-in
flymake).  It may be an interesting experiment for me, too.  One thing
is that transcluded source blocks are read-only.  I think it will
require a bit of work to get the correction to work on both the
transclusion and source buffers.


> 3. Visible #+INCLUDE directives. I recall multiple requests to be able
>    to see the INCLUDEd files right inside source Org buffer.

There is a parallel between #+INCLUDE and #+TRANSCLUDE.  Transclusions
are read-only copy so they can be exported.  I think in many cases they
can work as "visible #+INCLUDE".

But #+TRANSCLUDE does not support all the features #+INCLUDE
support. For example, noweb to include yet another block of text has
been reported to output an error.


> 4. Dynamic Org files like agenda views, but made of transcluded
>    headlines. Such files can be kept in Org mode with all its features.

Maybe... I don't use Org-agenda, so it didn't occur to me to test this
use case.  


> Transculation has been requested many times by different users. Some
> relevant links:
> - https://emacs.stackexchange.com/questions/51814/embed-org-task-list-from-other-subtree
> - https://www.reddit.com/r/emacs/comments/dz5xeb/is_there_a_way_to_include_an_org_file_in_another/
> - https://www.reddit.com/r/emacs/comments/flxqei/cloningmirroring_a_region_to_some_other_location/fl22ele/
> - https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/emacs-devel/2020-04/msg00141.html
> - https://emacs.stackexchange.com/questions/57608/split-code-across-multiple-src-blocks
> - https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/help-gnu-emacs/2020-06/msg00151.html
> - https://reddit.com/r/emacs/comments/debean/possible_to_embed_another_org_file_or_entry_in_an/]]

Org-transclusion might provide some steps forward for some of the
desired functionality discussed in these threads.  Especially for the
"cloning" a body of text across multiple buffers, I have factored out
this part and created a stand-alone library called "Text-clone".  It is
available in the same repository at
https://github.com/nobiot/org-transclusion/blob/main/docs/text-clone.md.

This separation was born out of a suggestion by alphapapa on Reddit.

I feel that Text-clone can be taken further than the use in
Org-transclusion (I feel that Org-transclusion is only one use case for
Text-clone).


> Other attempted implementations:
> - https://github.com/legalnonsense/org-clones
> - https://github.com/magnars/multifiles.el
> - https://github.com/vspinu/lentic
> - https://github.com/whacked/transclusion-minor-mode

Yes, I have looked at some of them and also this question from John
Kitchen, recorded by alphapapa: 
(https://github.com/alphapapa/transclusion-in-emacs#org-mode).

I also looked at https://github.com/gregdetre/emacs-freex. 

Org-clones have given me some inspirations.  Multifiles looked to be too
complicated for me to understand and abandoned for a long time. I was
not aware of Lentic.  I dismissed Transclusion-minor-mode because it
requires a server.

Org-transclusion is rather simple. It only requires Emacs 27.1 and Org 9.4.

> Best,
> Ihor


^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 36+ messages in thread

* Re: Introducing Org-transclusion
  2021-10-30 12:31 ` Juan Manuel Macías
@ 2021-11-01  9:17   ` Noboru Ota
  0 siblings, 0 replies; 36+ messages in thread
From: Noboru Ota @ 2021-11-01  9:17 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Juan Manuel Macías; +Cc: emacs-orgmode

Juan Manuel Macías <maciaschain@posteo.net> writes:

> I installed your package a few months ago and I have to say that it
> works quite well, although I have not had, at the moment, the
> opportunity to make intensive use of it. What I can say is that the
> concept seems very interesting to me. Very nice package.

Thank you for your kind words. 


^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 36+ messages in thread

* Re: Introducing Org-transclusion
  2021-11-01  9:11   ` Noboru Ota
@ 2021-11-01 13:24     ` Ihor Radchenko
  2021-11-06 10:43       ` Noboru Ota
  2021-11-01 20:07     ` Thomas Paulsen
  2021-11-02  5:17     ` Timothy
  2 siblings, 1 reply; 36+ messages in thread
From: Ihor Radchenko @ 2021-11-01 13:24 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Noboru Ota; +Cc: orgmode

Noboru Ota <me@nobiot.com> writes:

>> You have my +100500 to have this package as part of Org :D
>
> Thank you again :) Is there anything I can/should do to make this
> happen?  I would be happy to email the whole package as a "patch" for
> code review, if this were the way but I feel that might clutter this
> mailing list too much with a large amount of text (?)

Attached patches is the workflow in this mailing list. Do not worry
about cluttering. Clutter is meaningless text, not a patch. We have
recommendations about submitting new patches at
https://orgmode.org/worg/org-contribute.html

Once you submit _something_, core maintainers will be more inclined to
jump in and provide their opinion on including the new feature.

>> 2. A much faster tangle system. If we can directly transclude and sync
>>    contents of source blocks with actual programming language buffer,
>>    C-c ' can trivially support flycheck-mode and provide a more
>>    IDE-like experience while still benefiting from literate programming
>>    style.
>
> It has ":src lang" property and can transclude a specific range of
> source code into Org's source block. It is essentially read-only copy of
> the original, and you can use "C-c C-c" as a normal Org source block to
> execute/evaluate it.

I actually had something slightly different in mind. If we have a way to
copy and sync text between different places, we can as well compile all
the related source blocks into a temporary buffer in the correct
prog-mode. Then, C-c ' can simply jump to that buffer with all the code
from different source blocks bundled together. Changes in the temporary
buffer can then be synced on exit.

> For flycheck-mode, I am not sure; I don't use it (I use built-in
> flymake).  It may be an interesting experiment for me, too.  One thing
> is that transcluded source blocks are read-only.  I think it will
> require a bit of work to get the correction to work on both the
> transclusion and source buffers.

Can be flymake as well. The problem with current implementation of
source blocks is that only the code from individual source block is
visible for flymake. Imagine the following

#+begin_src emacs-lisp
(progn
 (message "A")
#+end_src

#+begin_src emacs-lisp
 (message "B"))
#+end_src

If you open the top source block with C-c ', flymake will report errors
because of unmatched parenthesis. The errors will be correct from
flymake's perspective because all flymake will see is text in the first
source block. However, the code is correct when you tangle the file.

If we can have a single buffer with all the source blocks, C-c ' can
simply jump to that buffer and narrow to region representing the current
source block. flymake will behave correctly because all the code will be
present in the buffer. Moreover, the user may widen the buffer
conveniently see all the code together. Tangling will be mostly a
question of simply saving the temporary buffer.

Trnasclusion is required to correctly keep the temporary code buffer and
actual Org file in sync.

Of course, things like noweb will be tricky. You may need something
similar to bi-directional text transformation like implemented in
lentic, when changes in text are not simply mirrored, but the text is
also transformed when syncing transcluded regions. You implemented
something similar in the :level parameter.

> Org-transclusion might provide some steps forward for some of the
> desired functionality discussed in these threads.  Especially for the
> "cloning" a body of text across multiple buffers, I have factored out
> this part and created a stand-alone library called "Text-clone".  It is
> available in the same repository at
> https://github.com/nobiot/org-transclusion/blob/main/docs/text-clone.md.

I noticed that you are using overlays in text-clone. It may potentially
cause slowdown in large Org buffers. Of course, it does not mean that
org-transclusion should not be accepted. Just something that may be
optimised.

Best,
Ihor


^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 36+ messages in thread

* Re: Re: Introducing Org-transclusion
  2021-11-01  9:11   ` Noboru Ota
  2021-11-01 13:24     ` Ihor Radchenko
@ 2021-11-01 20:07     ` Thomas Paulsen
  2021-11-01 21:01       ` Noboru Ota
  2021-11-02  5:17     ` Timothy
  2 siblings, 1 reply; 36+ messages in thread
From: Thomas Paulsen @ 2021-11-01 20:07 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Noboru Ota; +Cc: emacs-orgmode, yantar92

Hi,

it isn't part of gnu emacs currently.





^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 36+ messages in thread

* Re: Re: Introducing Org-transclusion
  2021-11-01 20:07     ` Thomas Paulsen
@ 2021-11-01 21:01       ` Noboru Ota
  0 siblings, 0 replies; 36+ messages in thread
From: Noboru Ota @ 2021-11-01 21:01 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Thomas Paulsen; +Cc: emacs-orgmode, yantar92

"Thomas Paulsen" <thomas.paulsen@firemail.de> writes:

> Hi,
>
> it isn't part of gnu emacs currently.

Yes, this is correct.  Org-transclusion is only available on GitHub at
the moment.  With the advice from Ihor and others, I am in the process
of sending the whole package as a patch to Org.


^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 36+ messages in thread

* Re: Introducing Org-transclusion
  2021-11-01  9:11   ` Noboru Ota
  2021-11-01 13:24     ` Ihor Radchenko
  2021-11-01 20:07     ` Thomas Paulsen
@ 2021-11-02  5:17     ` Timothy
  2021-11-05 19:53       ` Noboru Ota
  2 siblings, 1 reply; 36+ messages in thread
From: Timothy @ 2021-11-02  5:17 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Noboru Ota; +Cc: emacs-orgmode, Ihor Radchenko

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Hi Noboru,

> Org-transclusion is rather simple. It only requires Emacs 27.1 and Org 9.4.

It’s worth noting that currently Org’s minimum supported Emacs version is 25. Do
you use much from Emacs 26/27? There was mention of compat.el earlier though,
and if that goes somewhere this may not be an issue.

All the best,
Timothy

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 36+ messages in thread

* Re: Introducing Org-transclusion
  2021-10-30 11:51 Introducing Org-transclusion Noboru Ota
  2021-10-30 12:31 ` Juan Manuel Macías
  2021-10-30 13:59 ` Ihor Radchenko
@ 2021-11-05 17:11 ` Uwe Brauer
  2021-11-05 19:24   ` Noboru Ota
  2021-11-05 19:59   ` Noboru Ota
  2 siblings, 2 replies; 36+ messages in thread
From: Uwe Brauer @ 2021-11-05 17:11 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: emacs-orgmode

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>>> "NO" == Noboru Ota <me@nobiot.com> writes:

Hi Noboru


> Hi everyone,
> This is my first post to Org mailing list.

> I would like to introduce an add-on package I have been developing for
> about one year and ask for discussion / advice.

> The package is named "Org-transclusion", and is available on GitHub at
> https://github.com/nobiot/org-transclusion.  Simply put, it lets you
> insert a copy of text content via a file link or ID link within an Org
> file.  The GitHub repository contains links short video presentations
> and documentation in detail.

> Judging from feedback from users, it is used for academic writing such
> as PhD dissertation, technical writing with source code embedded as
> transclusions, and note taking.  

I just learned about this interesting package. 

I played a bit with it, one question to be sure.

If I include the content of another org file (say Russell) into my
main.org file

    1. I can export main.org to say latex and that latex file includes
       the corresponding content of Russell.

    2. It is a one way bridge, I cannot modify the content of Russell in
       main.org, right?

Regards

Uwe Brauer 

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^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 36+ messages in thread

* Re: Introducing Org-transclusion
  2021-11-05 17:11 ` Uwe Brauer
@ 2021-11-05 19:24   ` Noboru Ota
  2021-11-05 20:15     ` Uwe Brauer
  2021-11-05 19:59   ` Noboru Ota
  1 sibling, 1 reply; 36+ messages in thread
From: Noboru Ota @ 2021-11-05 19:24 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Uwe Brauer, emacs-orgmode

Uwe Brauer <oub@mat.ucm.es> writes:

> If I include the content of another org file (say Russell) into my
> main.org file
>
>     1. I can export main.org to say latex and that latex file includes
>        the corresponding content of Russell.
>     2. It is a one way bridge, I cannot modify the content of Russell in
>        main.org, right?

You can.  Put your point on the read-only copied text content in
main.org (transcluded text) and press "e" to call the
"org-transclusion-live-sync-start" command.  The transcluded text and
source will get an overlay, which lets you edit and sync the changed
content real-time. This works both ways.

There are some restrictions if the source file is Org file; you will get
a message telling you that you cannot activate live-sync for these
cases.  This is due to the way I use Org elements.  I might be able to
find a way later with this helpful community.  The restriction is
documented in the docstring of the "live-sync-start" command.  Here is
an excerpt:

    For transclusions of Org elements or a buffer, live-sync works
    only on the following elements: center-block, drawer,
    dynamic-block, latex-environment, paragraph, plain-list,
    quote-block, special-block table, and verse-block.

Let me know if you have more questions. Thank you for taking interest :)

Noboru


^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 36+ messages in thread

* Re: Introducing Org-transclusion
  2021-11-02  5:17     ` Timothy
@ 2021-11-05 19:53       ` Noboru Ota
  2021-11-05 21:56         ` Tim Cross
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 36+ messages in thread
From: Noboru Ota @ 2021-11-05 19:53 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Timothy; +Cc: emacs-orgmode

Timothy <tecosaur@gmail.com> writes:

> It’s worth noting that currently Org’s minimum supported Emacs version is 25. Do
> you use much from Emacs 26/27? There was mention of compat.el earlier though,
> and if that goes somewhere this may not be an issue.

Thank you, Timothy.  I take it that support for version 25 to be a
prerequsite for Org-transclusion to be included in Org.

It never occured to me; thanks for pointing it out.  I will need to
check -- it was just my development was done mainly on 27.

Does this mean Org contributors have different versions of Emacs (25,
26, 27...) and test their patches in every version?  Do you know?

Noboru


^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 36+ messages in thread

* Re: Introducing Org-transclusion
  2021-11-05 17:11 ` Uwe Brauer
  2021-11-05 19:24   ` Noboru Ota
@ 2021-11-05 19:59   ` Noboru Ota
  2021-11-05 20:13     ` Uwe Brauer
  1 sibling, 1 reply; 36+ messages in thread
From: Noboru Ota @ 2021-11-05 19:59 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Uwe Brauer, emacs-orgmode

Uwe Brauer <oub@mat.ucm.es> writes:

>     1. I can export main.org to say latex and that latex file includes
>        the corresponding content of Russell.

Sorry, Uwe, I didn't say anything about the first qustion in my previous reply.

Yes, that's the idea.  The copied text exists in the buffer visiting
main.org as a read-only copy, so it will be part of export.

What Org-transclusion does is to remove all the translusions temporarily
on save-buffer (using before- and after-save hooks) to keep the file in
the filesystem clear of the transcluded copies -- only the #+transclude
keywords remain in the file.

Noboru


^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 36+ messages in thread

* Re: Introducing Org-transclusion
  2021-11-05 19:59   ` Noboru Ota
@ 2021-11-05 20:13     ` Uwe Brauer
  0 siblings, 0 replies; 36+ messages in thread
From: Uwe Brauer @ 2021-11-05 20:13 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: emacs-orgmode

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>>> "NO" == Noboru Ota <me@nobiot.com> writes:

> Uwe Brauer <oub@mat.ucm.es> writes:
>> 1. I can export main.org to say latex and that latex file includes
>> the corresponding content of Russell.

> Sorry, Uwe, I didn't say anything about the first qustion in my previous reply.

> Yes, that's the idea.  The copied text exists in the buffer visiting
> main.org as a read-only copy, so it will be part of export.


Thanks I tried that out works as expected!

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^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 36+ messages in thread

* Re: Introducing Org-transclusion
  2021-11-05 19:24   ` Noboru Ota
@ 2021-11-05 20:15     ` Uwe Brauer
  2021-11-05 23:02       ` Noboru Ota
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 36+ messages in thread
From: Uwe Brauer @ 2021-11-05 20:15 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: emacs-orgmode

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>>> "NO" == Noboru Ota <me@nobiot.com> writes:

> Uwe Brauer <oub@mat.ucm.es> writes:
>> If I include the content of another org file (say Russell) into my
>> main.org file
>> 
>> 1. I can export main.org to say latex and that latex file includes
>> the corresponding content of Russell.
>> 2. It is a one way bridge, I cannot modify the content of Russell in
>> main.org, right?

> You can.  Put your point on the read-only copied text content in
> main.org (transcluded text) and press "e" to call the
> "org-transclusion-live-sync-start" command.  The transcluded text and
> source will get an overlay, which lets you edit and sync the changed
> content real-time. This works both ways.


Ok I tried that out, both files are indeed org file (I thought that is
the most natural way anyhow)

I finished the editing with C-c C-c
but received a error message that confused me
,----
| 
| Warning (emacs): org-element--cache: Unregistered buffer modifications detected. Resetting.
| If this warning appears regularly, please report it to Org mode mailing list (M-x org-submit-bug-report).
| The buffer is: mytransclusion.org
|  Current command: org-transclusion-mode
|  Backtrace:
| "  backtrace-to-string(nil)
|   org-element--cache-sync(#<buffer mytransclusion.org> 14)
|   org-element-at-point()
|   org-transclusion-keyword-string-to-plist()
|   org-transclusion-add-all()
|   org-transclusion-mode(toggle)
|   funcall-interactively(org-transclusion-mode toggle)
|   call-interactively(org-transclusion-mode nil nil)
|   command-execute(org-transclusion-mode)
| " Disable showing Disable logging
| Warning (emacs): org-element--cache: Unregistered buffer modifications detected. Resetting.
| If this warning appears regularly, please report it to Org mode mailing list (M-x org-submit-bug-report).
| The buffer is: mytransclusion.org
|  Current command: org-transclusion-add
|  Backtrace:
| "  backtrace-to-string(nil)
|   org-element--cache-sync(#<buffer mytransclusion.org> 32)
|   org-element-at-point()
|   org-transclusion-check-add()
|   org-transclusion-add()
|   funcall-interactively(org-transclusion-add)
|   call-interactively(org-transclusion-add nil nil)
|   command-execute(org-transclusion-add)
| " Disable showing Disable logging
| Warning (emacs): org-element--cache: Unregistered buffer modifications detected. Resetting.
| If this warning appears regularly, please report it to Org mode mailing list (M-x org-submit-bug-report).
| The buffer is: mytransclusion.org
|  Current command: kill-this-buffer
|  Backtrace:
| "  backtrace-to-string(nil)\12  org-element--cache-sync(#<buffer mytransclusion.org> 91)\12  org-element-at-point(91)\12  org-element--cache-persist-before-write(org-element--cache #<buffer mytransclusion.org>)\12  run-hook-with-args-until-success(org-element--cache-persist-before-write org-element--cache #<buffer mytransclusion.org>)\12  #f(compiled-function (v) #<bytecode -0x1255c0fe8f3c6b1a>)(org-element--cache)\12  #f(compiled-function (elt) #<bytecode -0x5112befcede9fba>)(org-element--cache)\12  mapc(#f(compiled-function (elt) #<bytecode -0x5112befcede9fba>) (org-element--headline-cache org-element--cache))\12  seq-do(#f(compiled-function (elt) #<bytecode -0x5112befcede9fba>) (org-element--headline-cache org-element--cache))\12  seq-find(#f(compiled-function (v) #<bytecode -0x1255c0fe8f3c6b1a>) (org-element--headline-cache org-element--cache))\12  org-persist-write((org-element--headline-cache org-element--cache) #<buffer mytransclusion.org>)\12  org-persist-write-all(#<buffer mytransclusion.org>)\12  org-persist-write-all-buffer()\12  kill-buffer(#<buffer mytransclusion.org>)\12  kill-scratch-buffer()\12  kill-buffer(#<buffer mytransclusion.org>)\12  kill-this-buffer()\12  funcall-interactively(kill-this-buffer)\12  call-interactively(kill-this-buffer nil nil)\12  command-execute(kill-this-buffer)\12" Disable showing Disable logging
| Warning (emacs): org-element--cache: Unregistered buffer modifications detected. Resetting.
| If this warning appears regularly, please report it to Org mode mailing list (M-x org-submit-bug-report).
| The buffer is: mytransclusion.org
|  Current command: org-transclusion-add
|  Backtrace:
| "  backtrace-to-string(nil)
|   org-element--cache-sync(#<buffer mytransclusion.org> 14)
|   org-element-at-point()
|   org-transclusion-check-add()
|   org-transclusion-add()
|   funcall-interactively(org-transclusion-add)
|   call-interactively(org-transclusion-add nil nil)
|   command-execute(org-transclusion-add)
| " Disable showing Disable logging
| Warning (emacs): org-element--cache: Unregistered buffer modifications detected. Resetting.
| If this warning appears regularly, please report it to Org mode mailing list (M-x org-submit-bug-report).
| The buffer is: mytransclusion.org
|  Current command: org-transclusion-mode
|  Backtrace:
| "  backtrace-to-string(nil)
|   org-element--cache-sync(#<buffer mytransclusion.org> 14)
|   org-element-at-point()
|   org-transclusion-keyword-string-to-plist()
|   org-transclusion-add-all()
|   org-transclusion-mode(toggle)
|   funcall-interactively(org-transclusion-mode toggle)
|   call-interactively(org-transclusion-mode nil nil)
|   command-execute(org-transclusion-mode)
| " Disable showing Disable logging
| Warning (emacs): org-element--cache: Unregistered buffer modifications detected. Resetting.
| If this warning appears regularly, please report it to Org mode mailing list (M-x org-submit-bug-report).
| The buffer is: mytransclusion.org
|  Current command: org-transclusion-add
|  Backtrace:
| "  backtrace-to-string(nil)
|   org-element--cache-sync(#<buffer mytransclusion.org> 14)
|   org-element-at-point()
|   org-transclusion-check-add()
|   org-transclusion-add()
|   funcall-interactively(org-transclusion-add)
|   call-interactively(org-transclusion-add nil nil)
|   command-execute(org-transclusion-add)
| " Disable showing Disable logging
| Warning (emacs): org-element--cache: Unregistered buffer modifications detected. Resetting.
| If this warning appears regularly, please report it to Org mode mailing list (M-x org-submit-bug-report).
| The buffer is: mytransclusion.org
|  Current command: org-export-dispatch
|  Backtrace:
| "  backtrace-to-string(nil)\12  org-element--cache-sync(#<buffer mytransclusion.org> 123)\12  org-element-at-point(123)\12  org-element--cache-persist-before-write(org-element--cache #<buffer mytransclusion.org>)\12  run-hook-with-args-until-success(org-element--cache-persist-before-write org-element--cache #<buffer mytransclusion.org>)\12  #f(compiled-function (v) #<bytecode -0x1255c674cf2eab1a>)(org-element--cache)\12  #f(compiled-function (elt) #<bytecode -0x5112befcede9fba>)(org-element--cache)\12  mapc(#f(compiled-function (elt) #<bytecode -0x5112befcede9fba>) (org-element--headline-cache org-element--cache))\12  seq-do(#f(compiled-function (elt) #<bytecode -0x5112befcede9fba>) (org-element--headline-cache org-element--cache))\12  seq-find(#f(compiled-function (v) #<bytecode -0x1255c674cf2eab1a>) (org-element--headline-cache org-element--cache))\12  org-persist-write((org-element--headline-cache org-element--cache) #<buffer mytransclusion.org>)\12  org-persist-write-all(#<buffer mytransclusion.org<2><2>>)\12  org-persist-write-all-buffer()\12  kill-buffer(#<buffer mytransclusion.org<2><2>>)\12  kill-scratch-buffer()\12  kill-buffer(#<buffer mytransclusion.org<2><2>>)\12  #f(compiled-function () #<bytecode -0x1303c4fba882ab30>)()\12  org-babel-exp-process-buffer()\12  org-export-as(latex nil nil nil (:output-file \"mytransclusion.tex\"))\12  org-export-to-file(latex \"mytransclusion.tex\" nil nil nil nil nil)\12  org-latex-export-to-latex(nil nil nil nil)\12  org-export-dispatch(nil)\12  funcall-interactively(org-export-dispatch nil)\12  call-interactively(org-export-dispatch nil nil)\12  command-execute(org-export-dispatch)\12" Disable showing Disable logging
| Warning (emacs): org-element--cache: Unregistered buffer modifications detected. Resetting.
| If this warning appears regularly, please report it to Org mode mailing list (M-x org-submit-bug-report).
| The buffer is: mytransclusion.org
|  Current command: org-transclusion-mode
|  Backtrace:
| "  backtrace-to-string(nil)
|   org-element--cache-sync(#<buffer mytransclusion.org> 14)
|   org-element-at-point()
|   org-transclusion-keyword-string-to-plist()
|   org-transclusion-add-all()
|   org-transclusion-mode(toggle)
|   funcall-interactively(org-transclusion-mode toggle)
|   call-interactively(org-transclusion-mode nil nil)
|   command-execute(org-transclusion-mode)
| " Disable showing Disable logging
| Warning (emacs): org-element--cache: Unregistered buffer modifications detected. Resetting.
| If this warning appears regularly, please report it to Org mode mailing list (M-x org-submit-bug-report).
| The buffer is: mytransclusion.org
|  Current command: org-transclusion-live-sync-start
|  Backtrace:
| "  backtrace-to-string(nil)
|   org-element--cache-sync(#<buffer mytransclusion.org> 14)
|   org-element-at-point()
|   org-transclusion-check-add()
|   org-transclusion-add()
|   org-transclusion-refresh()
|   org-transclusion-live-sync-start()
|   funcall-interactively(org-transclusion-live-sync-start)
|   call-interactively(org-transclusion-live-sync-start nil nil)
|   command-execute(org-transclusion-live-sync-start)
| " Disable showing Disable logging
| Warning (emacs): org-element--cache: Unregistered buffer modifications detected. Resetting.
| If this warning appears regularly, please report it to Org mode mailing list (M-x org-submit-bug-report).
| The buffer is: mytransclusion.org
|  Current command: org-transclusion-live-sync-exit
|  Backtrace:
| "  backtrace-to-string(nil)
|   org-element--cache-sync(#<buffer mytransclusion.org> 14)
|   org-element-at-point()
|   org-transclusion-check-add()
|   org-transclusion-add()
|   org-transclusion-refresh()
|   org-transclusion-live-sync-exit()
|   funcall-interactively(org-transclusion-live-sync-exit)
|   call-interactively(org-transclusion-live-sync-exit nil nil)
|   command-execute(org-transclusion-live-sync-exit)
| " Disable showing Disable logging
| Warning (emacs): org-element--cache: Unregistered buffer modifications detected. Resetting.
| If this warning appears regularly, please report it to Org mode mailing list (M-x org-submit-bug-report).
| The buffer is: mytransclusion.org
|  Current command: save-buffer
|  Backtrace:
| "  backtrace-to-string(nil)
|   org-element--cache-sync(#<buffer mytransclusion.org> 14)
|   org-element-at-point()
|   org-transclusion-check-add()
|   org-transclusion-add()
|   org-transclusion-after-save-buffer()
|   run-hooks(after-save-hook)
|   basic-save-buffer(t)
|   save-buffer(1)
|   funcall-interactively(save-buffer 1)
|   call-interactively(save-buffer nil nil)
|   command-execute(save-buffer)
| " Disable showing Disable logging
`----

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^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 36+ messages in thread

* Re: Introducing Org-transclusion
  2021-11-05 19:53       ` Noboru Ota
@ 2021-11-05 21:56         ` Tim Cross
  2021-11-05 23:20           ` Timothy
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 36+ messages in thread
From: Tim Cross @ 2021-11-05 21:56 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: emacs-orgmode


Noboru Ota <me@nobiot.com> writes:

> Timothy <tecosaur@gmail.com> writes:
>
>> It’s worth noting that currently Org’s minimum supported Emacs version is 25. Do
>> you use much from Emacs 26/27? There was mention of compat.el earlier though,
>> and if that goes somewhere this may not be an issue.
>
> Thank you, Timothy.  I take it that support for version 25 to be a
> prerequsite for Org-transclusion to be included in Org.
>
> It never occured to me; thanks for pointing it out.  I will need to
> check -- it was just my development was done mainly on 27.
>
> Does this mean Org contributors have different versions of Emacs (25,
> 26, 27...) and test their patches in every version?  Do you know?
>

The org 'policy' is to support the current released Emacs version and
the two previous versions. Current released version is 27.2, so need to
support 26.* and 25.*. We recently dropped the requirement to support
24.x. Once Emacs 28 is released, support for 25.x can be dropped.

WRT making this part of org-mode core, I'm not in favour. This is no
reflection on the package, which I think is a great addition to the org
ecosystem. My preference would be for this package to be an add-on
package in either ELPA or non-GNU ELPA.

My main reason for this is because I think we should be striving to make
the core org packages as small and easily maintained as possible,
containing the core functionality used by everyone. While this package
has some very useful functionality, I feel it is functionality which
will be used by a subset of users or by others only occasionally.

If, at a later date, it turns out a majority of users use this package,
we can review and if necessary/appropriate, bring the package into org core
(assuming copyright is handed over to FSF).


^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 36+ messages in thread

* Re: Introducing Org-transclusion
  2021-11-05 20:15     ` Uwe Brauer
@ 2021-11-05 23:02       ` Noboru Ota
  2021-11-06 14:01         ` Uwe Brauer
  2021-11-06 14:25         ` Ihor Radchenko
  0 siblings, 2 replies; 36+ messages in thread
From: Noboru Ota @ 2021-11-05 23:02 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Uwe Brauer; +Cc: emacs-orgmode


Sorry that this email is duplicate for Uwe but I didn't include the
mailing list as the To/Cc list. Still getting used to how this mailing
list works.

Uwe Brauer <oub@mat.ucm.es> writes:

> Ok I tried that out, both files are indeed org file (I thought that is
> the most natural way anyhow)

Thank you.

> I finished the editing with C-c C-c
> but received a error message that confused me
> ,----
> | 
> | Warning (emacs): org-element--cache: Unregistered buffer modifications detected. Resetting.

I cannot reproduce the problem (I have never seen this warming myself)
and I have a feeling that it is the same issue as being discussed in
this recent thread in this mailing list (?)

https://list.orgmode.org/m2bl36sfrw.fsf@gmail.com/

I cannot follow the exchange there but you might be able to and give me
advice.  Isn't it realted to a development branch or some working commit
of Org?

I use the 9.5 release from ELPA, which I believe is what people call a
stable version?

Thank you.
Noboru


^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 36+ messages in thread

* Re: Introducing Org-transclusion
  2021-11-05 21:56         ` Tim Cross
@ 2021-11-05 23:20           ` Timothy
  2021-11-06 10:14             ` Noboru Ota
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 36+ messages in thread
From: Timothy @ 2021-11-05 23:20 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Tim Cross; +Cc: emacs-orgmode

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1256 bytes --]

Hi Tim,

> WRT making this part of org-mode core, I’m not in favour. This is no
> reflection on the package, which I think is a great addition to the org
> ecosystem. My preference would be for this package to be an add-on
> package in either ELPA or non-GNU ELPA.
>
> My main reason for this is because I think we should be striving to make
> the core org packages as small and easily maintained as possible,
> containing the core functionality used by everyone. While this package
> has some very useful functionality, I feel it is functionality which
> will be used by a subset of users or by others only occasionally.
>
> If, at a later date, it turns out a majority of users use this package,
> we can review and if necessary/appropriate, bring the package into org core
> (assuming copyright is handed over to FSF).

Reading your thoughts on this package, I find myself of a similar mind. I think
org-transclusion is great, but it may be a bit hasty to add it as a “core” Org
feature at this stage. If it looks like a good idea later and/or we end up
developing an Org spec with a small core and tiers of features, I could see this
being included alongside less-essential features like `#+plot'.

All the best,
Timothy

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 36+ messages in thread

* Re: Introducing Org-transclusion
  2021-11-05 23:20           ` Timothy
@ 2021-11-06 10:14             ` Noboru Ota
  2021-11-06 10:22               ` Tim Cross
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 36+ messages in thread
From: Noboru Ota @ 2021-11-06 10:14 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Timothy, Tim Cross; +Cc: emacs-orgmode


Timothy <tecosaur@gmail.com> writes:
> Hi Tim,
>

>> I feel it is functionality which will be used by a subset of users
>> or by others only occasionally.

Tim, thank you for your feedback.
Timothy, thank you for forwarding Tim's feedback into the loop.

I think this assessment is fair and reflects the current usage from the
feedback I get. 

>> WRT making this part of org-mode core, I’m not in favour. This is no
>> reflection on the package, which I think is a great addition to the org
>> ecosystem. My preference would be for this package to be an add-on
>> package in either ELPA or non-GNU ELPA.

I will take this as the guidance and pursue ELPA as my first option.  I
have just signed and returned the FSF copyright assignment form.

Now I will need to go and learn how to add a package to ELPA.

Thank you.
Noboru




^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 36+ messages in thread

* Re: Introducing Org-transclusion
  2021-11-06 10:14             ` Noboru Ota
@ 2021-11-06 10:22               ` Tim Cross
  2021-11-06 11:49                 ` Noboru Ota
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 36+ messages in thread
From: Tim Cross @ 2021-11-06 10:22 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Noboru Ota; +Cc: emacs-orgmode, Timothy


Noboru Ota <me@nobiot.com> writes:

> Timothy <tecosaur@gmail.com> writes:
>> Hi Tim,
>>
>
>>> I feel it is functionality which will be used by a subset of users
>>> or by others only occasionally.
>
> Tim, thank you for your feedback.
> Timothy, thank you for forwarding Tim's feedback into the loop.
>
> I think this assessment is fair and reflects the current usage from the
> feedback I get. 
>
>>> WRT making this part of org-mode core, I’m not in favour. This is no
>>> reflection on the package, which I think is a great addition to the org
>>> ecosystem. My preference would be for this package to be an add-on
>>> package in either ELPA or non-GNU ELPA.
>
> I will take this as the guidance and pursue ELPA as my first option.  I
> have just signed and returned the FSF copyright assignment form.
>
> Now I will need to go and learn how to add a package to ELPA.
>
> Thank you.
> Noboru

Noboru,

thank you for making such a valuable contribution. I think your package
will be a valuable addition and it is great you have gone that extra
distance to sign the FSF copyright paperwork and are willing to do the
work to add it into ELPA.

I'm not 100% certain, but I think there is some information in the ELPA
git repository on how to setup and contribute a package to ELPA. Further
guidance can also be gained by asking on the emacs-devel mail list.




^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 36+ messages in thread

* Re: Introducing Org-transclusion
  2021-11-01 13:24     ` Ihor Radchenko
@ 2021-11-06 10:43       ` Noboru Ota
  2021-11-08 15:07         ` Ihor Radchenko
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 36+ messages in thread
From: Noboru Ota @ 2021-11-06 10:43 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Ihor Radchenko, emacs-orgmode

Ihor Radchenko <yantar92@gmail.com> writes:

> I noticed that you are using overlays in text-clone. It may potentially
> cause slowdown in large Org buffers. Of course, it does not mean that
> org-transclusion should not be accepted. Just something that may be
> optimised.

Karl Voit (GitHub user name, novoid) gave me a comment in a similar vein
regarding potential performance issues as follows:

> As far as I understood: when you do have many overlays in deeply nested headings that are collapsed and you scroll over the lines with the collapsed headings, Emacs needs to handle those overlays and therefore is not able to perform a simple line change without issues.

Source:
https://github.com/nobiot/org-transclusion/issues/42#issuecomment-739570395

I personally have never come across such performance issue.  Are you
aware of some good test file or something to let other people reproduce
it?

For now, I am inclined to keeping the use of overlays as is. It's
partially because of my psychological inertia and partially because
text-clone makes uses of overlay's properties:

- "Evaporate" property to take care of when to finish text-clone
- Yanking does not copy overlay properties to avoid accidental cloning

If performance issues become more prevalent and it's something I can
address within my skill set, I will be happy to review the use of
overlays, of course.




^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 36+ messages in thread

* Re: Introducing Org-transclusion
  2021-11-06 10:22               ` Tim Cross
@ 2021-11-06 11:49                 ` Noboru Ota
  0 siblings, 0 replies; 36+ messages in thread
From: Noboru Ota @ 2021-11-06 11:49 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Tim Cross; +Cc: emacs-orgmode

Tim Cross <theophilusx@gmail.com> writes:

> thank you for making such a valuable contribution. I think your package
> will be a valuable addition and it is great you have gone that extra
> distance to sign the FSF copyright paperwork and are willing to do the
> work to add it into ELPA.
>
> I'm not 100% certain, but I think there is some information in the ELPA
> git repository on how to setup and contribute a package to ELPA. Further
> guidance can also be gained by asking on the emacs-devel mail list.

Thank you for your kind words and encouragement.

This page on EmacsWiki had a good instruction
(https://www.emacswiki.org/emacs/ELPA).

I have just created my account on GNU Savannah and sent a request in the
emacs-devel mail list for inclusion to emacs gropu for ELPA
contribution.  I am hoping to hear from them soon.

Thanks again.
Noboru


^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 36+ messages in thread

* Re: Introducing Org-transclusion
  2021-11-05 23:02       ` Noboru Ota
@ 2021-11-06 14:01         ` Uwe Brauer
  2021-11-06 14:25         ` Ihor Radchenko
  1 sibling, 0 replies; 36+ messages in thread
From: Uwe Brauer @ 2021-11-06 14:01 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: emacs-orgmode

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 646 bytes --]



> I cannot reproduce the problem (I have never seen this warming myself)
> and I have a feeling that it is the same issue as being discussed in
> this recent thread in this mailing list (?)

Ok thanks for your feedback, I will repeat what I did using 

emacs -Q (in which case the default org version is used)

    1. Loading your package and repeat the steps

    2. That doing the same but loading the org version based on git master from last week 

I then might send a bug report.


> https://list.orgmode.org/m2bl36sfrw.fsf@gmail.com/

Thanks for pointing this out to me.

I will keep you and others updated.

Uwe 

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^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 36+ messages in thread

* Re: Introducing Org-transclusion
  2021-11-05 23:02       ` Noboru Ota
  2021-11-06 14:01         ` Uwe Brauer
@ 2021-11-06 14:25         ` Ihor Radchenko
  2021-11-06 14:54           ` Noboru Ota
  1 sibling, 1 reply; 36+ messages in thread
From: Ihor Radchenko @ 2021-11-06 14:25 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Noboru Ota; +Cc: Uwe Brauer, emacs-orgmode

Noboru Ota <me@nobiot.com> writes:

> I cannot follow the exchange there but you might be able to and give me
> advice.  Isn't it realted to a development branch or some working commit
> of Org?
>
> I use the 9.5 release from ELPA, which I believe is what people call a
> stable version?

The problem is on development version. It is related to latest changes
to org-element-cache (previously, cache would fail terribly instead of
showing the warning). Org must keep track of changes in buffer to
maintain element cache. org-transclusion uses with-silent-modifications
macro, which prevents org-element-cache from working properly. I
recommend dropping with-silent-modifications or at least using
combine-after-change-calls.

Best,
Ihor


^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 36+ messages in thread

* Re: Introducing Org-transclusion
  2021-11-06 14:25         ` Ihor Radchenko
@ 2021-11-06 14:54           ` Noboru Ota
  2021-11-06 15:49             ` Uwe Brauer
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 36+ messages in thread
From: Noboru Ota @ 2021-11-06 14:54 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Ihor Radchenko; +Cc: Uwe Brauer, emacs-orgmode

Ihor Radchenko <yantar92@gmail.com> writes:

> org-transclusion uses with-silent-modifications
> macro, which prevents org-element-cache from working properly. I
> recommend dropping with-silent-modifications or at least using
> combine-after-change-calls.

Thank you for this information; I had no idea.  Let me look into it.

Noboru


^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 36+ messages in thread

* Re: Introducing Org-transclusion
  2021-11-06 14:54           ` Noboru Ota
@ 2021-11-06 15:49             ` Uwe Brauer
  2021-11-07  7:34               ` Ihor Radchenko
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 36+ messages in thread
From: Uwe Brauer @ 2021-11-06 15:49 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: emacs-orgmode

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 593 bytes --]

>>> "NO" == Noboru Ota <me@nobiot.com> writes:

> Ihor Radchenko <yantar92@gmail.com> writes:
>> org-transclusion uses with-silent-modifications
>> macro, which prevents org-element-cache from working properly. I
>> recommend dropping with-silent-modifications or at least using
>> combine-after-change-calls.

> Thank you for this information; I had no idea.  Let me look into it.

Ok, then I don't need to run the check 😇

I did run the check with the official org release and did *not* run into 
any problem, so I presume it what Ihor says, the recent dev version.

Uwe 

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* Re: Introducing Org-transclusion
  2021-11-06 15:49             ` Uwe Brauer
@ 2021-11-07  7:34               ` Ihor Radchenko
  2021-11-07  8:07                 ` Uwe Brauer
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 36+ messages in thread
From: Ihor Radchenko @ 2021-11-07  7:34 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Uwe Brauer; +Cc: emacs-orgmode

Uwe Brauer <oub@mat.ucm.es> writes:

> I did run the check with the official org release and did *not* run into 
> any problem, so I presume it what Ihor says, the recent dev version.

The official org release disables element cache by default. If you
enable it, there will be the same problem (but with no warning).

Element cache has many other bugs in the official release though. So, it
is not a good idea to enable cache in Org 9.5 regardless the problem
with org-transclusion.

Best,
Ihor


^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 36+ messages in thread

* Re: Introducing Org-transclusion
  2021-11-07  7:34               ` Ihor Radchenko
@ 2021-11-07  8:07                 ` Uwe Brauer
  2021-11-07  8:30                   ` Ihor Radchenko
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 36+ messages in thread
From: Uwe Brauer @ 2021-11-07  8:07 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: emacs-orgmode

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 699 bytes --]

>>> "IR" == Ihor Radchenko <yantar92@gmail.com> writes:

> Uwe Brauer <oub@mat.ucm.es> writes:
>> I did run the check with the official org release and did *not* run into 
>> any problem, so I presume it what Ihor says, the recent dev version.

> The official org release disables element cache by default. If you
> enable it, there will be the same problem (but with no warning).

> Element cache has many other bugs in the official release though. So, it
> is not a good idea to enable cache in Org 9.5 regardless the problem
> with org-transclusion.

So what do you suggest

    - set a variable to nil, but which?

    - or wait to let Noboru fix the issue?

Regards

Uwe 

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* Re: Introducing Org-transclusion
  2021-11-07  8:07                 ` Uwe Brauer
@ 2021-11-07  8:30                   ` Ihor Radchenko
  2021-11-07 13:25                     ` Uwe Brauer
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 36+ messages in thread
From: Ihor Radchenko @ 2021-11-07  8:30 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Uwe Brauer; +Cc: emacs-orgmode

Uwe Brauer <oub@mat.ucm.es> writes:

> So what do you suggest
>
>     - set a variable to nil, but which?
>
>     - or wait to let Noboru fix the issue?

If you are on main, you can just disable the warning, unless you start
experiencing Emacs slowdown.

The warning you see is handled by org-element code correctly. Once
org-element detects that third-party code changes buffer silently, the
cache is cleared. The worst thing that can happen is slight Emacs
slowdown. There will be no breakage.

Best,
Ihor


^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 36+ messages in thread

* Re: Introducing Org-transclusion
  2021-11-07  8:30                   ` Ihor Radchenko
@ 2021-11-07 13:25                     ` Uwe Brauer
  2021-11-07 13:41                       ` Ihor Radchenko
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 36+ messages in thread
From: Uwe Brauer @ 2021-11-07 13:25 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Ihor Radchenko; +Cc: Uwe Brauer, emacs-orgmode

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>>> "IR" == Ihor Radchenko <yantar92@gmail.com> writes:

> Uwe Brauer <oub@mat.ucm.es> writes:
>> So what do you suggest
>> 
>> - set a variable to nil, but which?
>> 
>> - or wait to let Noboru fix the issue?

> If you are on main, you can just disable the warning, unless you start
> experiencing Emacs slowdown.

I am on master (d4e192514769368e32c4e61629bf51e67a781bff)

I am confused. 
Can I use org-transclusion, yes or no?
If I can which variable I have to set to which value?


Thanks

Uwe 

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* Re: Introducing Org-transclusion
  2021-11-07 13:25                     ` Uwe Brauer
@ 2021-11-07 13:41                       ` Ihor Radchenko
  2021-11-07 13:56                         ` Uwe Brauer
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 36+ messages in thread
From: Ihor Radchenko @ 2021-11-07 13:41 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Uwe Brauer; +Cc: emacs-orgmode

Uwe Brauer <oub@mat.ucm.es> writes:

>> If you are on main, you can just disable the warning, unless you start
>> experiencing Emacs slowdown.
>
> I am on master (d4e192514769368e32c4e61629bf51e67a781bff)

> I am confused. 
> Can I use org-transclusion, yes or no?

Yes, you can.

> If I can which variable I have to set to which value?

You don't need to set any variable. Just click on "Disable showing" if
the warning appears.

Best,
Ihor


^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 36+ messages in thread

* Re: Introducing Org-transclusion
  2021-11-07 13:41                       ` Ihor Radchenko
@ 2021-11-07 13:56                         ` Uwe Brauer
  0 siblings, 0 replies; 36+ messages in thread
From: Uwe Brauer @ 2021-11-07 13:56 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Ihor Radchenko; +Cc: Uwe Brauer, emacs-orgmode

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 538 bytes --]

>>> "IR" == Ihor Radchenko <yantar92@gmail.com> writes:

> Uwe Brauer <oub@mat.ucm.es> writes:
>>> If you are on main, you can just disable the warning, unless you start
>>> experiencing Emacs slowdown.
>> 
>> I am on master (d4e192514769368e32c4e61629bf51e67a781bff)

>> I am confused. 
>> Can I use org-transclusion, yes or no?

> Yes, you can.

>> If I can which variable I have to set to which value?

> You don't need to set any variable. Just click on "Disable showing" if
> the warning appears.

Ok thanks a lot

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* Re: Introducing Org-transclusion
  2021-11-06 10:43       ` Noboru Ota
@ 2021-11-08 15:07         ` Ihor Radchenko
  2021-11-10 21:09           ` Noboru Ota
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 36+ messages in thread
From: Ihor Radchenko @ 2021-11-08 15:07 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Noboru Ota; +Cc: emacs-orgmode

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 499 bytes --]

Noboru Ota <me@nobiot.com> writes:

> Source:
> https://github.com/nobiot/org-transclusion/issues/42#issuecomment-739570395
>
> I personally have never come across such performance issue.  Are you
> aware of some good test file or something to let other people reproduce
> it?

I tried to create an example file, but I start seeing issues far before
the file size becomes large enough for overlays becoming a problem.

Try to open the attached file and run M-x org-transclusion-add-all

Best,
Ihor


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The headline will be transcluded many times below.
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#+transclude: [[id:d7a2303a-712f-4cf4-a4d1-f8fa8daebf22][this is a headline with id]] 
#+transclude: [[id:d7a2303a-712f-4cf4-a4d1-f8fa8daebf22][this is a headline with id]] 
#+transclude: [[id:d7a2303a-712f-4cf4-a4d1-f8fa8daebf22][this is a headline with id]] 
#+transclude: [[id:d7a2303a-712f-4cf4-a4d1-f8fa8daebf22][this is a headline with id]] 
#+transclude: [[id:d7a2303a-712f-4cf4-a4d1-f8fa8daebf22][this is a headline with id]] 
#+transclude: [[id:d7a2303a-712f-4cf4-a4d1-f8fa8daebf22][this is a headline with id]] 
#+transclude: [[id:d7a2303a-712f-4cf4-a4d1-f8fa8daebf22][this is a headline with id]] 
#+transclude: [[id:d7a2303a-712f-4cf4-a4d1-f8fa8daebf22][this is a headline with id]] 
#+transclude: [[id:d7a2303a-712f-4cf4-a4d1-f8fa8daebf22][this is a headline with id]] 
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#+transclude: [[id:d7a2303a-712f-4cf4-a4d1-f8fa8daebf22][this is a headline with id]] 
#+transclude: [[id:d7a2303a-712f-4cf4-a4d1-f8fa8daebf22][this is a headline with id]] 
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#+transclude: [[id:d7a2303a-712f-4cf4-a4d1-f8fa8daebf22][this is a headline with id]] 
#+transclude: [[id:d7a2303a-712f-4cf4-a4d1-f8fa8daebf22][this is a headline with id]] 
#+transclude: [[id:d7a2303a-712f-4cf4-a4d1-f8fa8daebf22][this is a headline with id]] 
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#+transclude: [[id:d7a2303a-712f-4cf4-a4d1-f8fa8daebf22][this is a headline with id]] 
#+transclude: [[id:d7a2303a-712f-4cf4-a4d1-f8fa8daebf22][this is a headline with id]] 
#+transclude: [[id:d7a2303a-712f-4cf4-a4d1-f8fa8daebf22][this is a headline with id]] 
#+transclude: [[id:d7a2303a-712f-4cf4-a4d1-f8fa8daebf22][this is a headline with id]] 
#+transclude: [[id:d7a2303a-712f-4cf4-a4d1-f8fa8daebf22][this is a headline with id]] 
#+transclude: [[id:d7a2303a-712f-4cf4-a4d1-f8fa8daebf22][this is a headline with id]] 
#+transclude: [[id:d7a2303a-712f-4cf4-a4d1-f8fa8daebf22][this is a headline with id]] 
#+transclude: [[id:d7a2303a-712f-4cf4-a4d1-f8fa8daebf22][this is a headline with id]] 
#+transclude: [[id:d7a2303a-712f-4cf4-a4d1-f8fa8daebf22][this is a headline with id]] 
#+transclude: [[id:d7a2303a-712f-4cf4-a4d1-f8fa8daebf22][this is a headline with id]] 
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#+transclude: [[id:d7a2303a-712f-4cf4-a4d1-f8fa8daebf22][this is a headline with id]] 
#+transclude: [[id:d7a2303a-712f-4cf4-a4d1-f8fa8daebf22][this is a headline with id]] 
#+transclude: [[id:d7a2303a-712f-4cf4-a4d1-f8fa8daebf22][this is a headline with id]] 
#+transclude: [[id:d7a2303a-712f-4cf4-a4d1-f8fa8daebf22][this is a headline with id]] 
#+transclude: [[id:d7a2303a-712f-4cf4-a4d1-f8fa8daebf22][this is a headline with id]] 
#+transclude: [[id:d7a2303a-712f-4cf4-a4d1-f8fa8daebf22][this is a headline with id]] 
#+transclude: [[id:d7a2303a-712f-4cf4-a4d1-f8fa8daebf22][this is a headline with id]] 
#+transclude: [[id:d7a2303a-712f-4cf4-a4d1-f8fa8daebf22][this is a headline with id]] 
#+transclude: [[id:d7a2303a-712f-4cf4-a4d1-f8fa8daebf22][this is a headline with id]] 
#+transclude: [[id:d7a2303a-712f-4cf4-a4d1-f8fa8daebf22][this is a headline with id]] 
#+transclude: [[id:d7a2303a-712f-4cf4-a4d1-f8fa8daebf22][this is a headline with id]] 
#+transclude: [[id:d7a2303a-712f-4cf4-a4d1-f8fa8daebf22][this is a headline with id]] 
#+transclude: [[id:d7a2303a-712f-4cf4-a4d1-f8fa8daebf22][this is a headline with id]] 

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 36+ messages in thread

* Re: Introducing Org-transclusion
  2021-11-08 15:07         ` Ihor Radchenko
@ 2021-11-10 21:09           ` Noboru Ota
  2021-11-14  8:22             ` Ihor Radchenko
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 36+ messages in thread
From: Noboru Ota @ 2021-11-10 21:09 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Ihor Radchenko; +Cc: emacs-orgmode

Ihor Radchenko <yantar92@gmail.com> writes:

> Try to open the attached file and run M-x org-transclusion-add-all

Thank you. I see. Not even org-transclusion-add-all but a single add
function takes a bit of time.

If I may ask some questions and for some advice:

1. I see it as an issue rather of recursive transclusions (transclusions
inside a transclusion) than of overlay. Do you agree?

2. If it is a recursion, I would like to somehow avoid it altogether by
"skipping it" before going into a loop.  I thought I had done part of
it; apparently, it's not enough.  Do you have some suggestions how other
programs might deal with this type of issues?  I feel that many pieces
of software have done so...

3. If it is an overlay issue, do you have suggestions what sort of
methods are available within Emacs?  

4. This file does not seem realistic for me as a user who use Emacs for
writing -- but I see this sort of testing can be useful for avoiding
potential issues.  How important do you think it is to tackle this type
of "hypothetical" issues as a package developer?  It's a question of
priority for me.  I do not feel that I have sufficient knowledge and
skill set to tackle it right now; if the priority is not so high, I think
I would leave it (for now, but this "for now" would be for a long time).
If priority is high, I would need to ask for some help with even framing
the problem so that we can somehow tackle it.

Thank you.
Noboru


^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 36+ messages in thread

* Re: Introducing Org-transclusion
  2021-11-10 21:09           ` Noboru Ota
@ 2021-11-14  8:22             ` Ihor Radchenko
  2021-11-14  9:35               ` Ihor Radchenko
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 36+ messages in thread
From: Ihor Radchenko @ 2021-11-14  8:22 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Noboru Ota; +Cc: emacs-orgmode

Noboru Ota <me@nobiot.com> writes:

> Ihor Radchenko <yantar92@gmail.com> writes:
>
>> Try to open the attached file and run M-x org-transclusion-add-all
>
> Thank you. I see. Not even org-transclusion-add-all but a single add
> function takes a bit of time.

> 1. I see it as an issue rather of recursive transclusions (transclusions
> inside a transclusion) than of overlay. Do you agree?

Do you mean that the #+tranclusion keyword is located inside the
transcluded headline? I agree (though I did not really think about it
when creating the file).

> 2. If it is a recursion, I would like to somehow avoid it altogether by
> "skipping it" before going into a loop.  I thought I had done part of
> it; apparently, it's not enough.  Do you have some suggestions how other
> programs might deal with this type of issues?  I feel that many pieces
> of software have done so...

I am not very sure if I understand you correctly. AFAIU, the main
problem here is that #+translude lines may expand into Org elements that
change the element structure (e.g. when #+transclude is a low-level
headline, it breaks current headline section). You may probably need to
handle "headline inside headline" or "element inside non-greater
element" transclusions specially.

> 3. If it is an overlay issue, do you have suggestions what sort of
> methods are available within Emacs?  

My example is certainly not an overlay issue. I did some performance
debugging. Most of CPU time was spend on org-element-parse-buffer.

For overlay issues, the alternative is text properties.

> 4. This file does not seem realistic for me as a user who use Emacs for
> writing -- but I see this sort of testing can be useful for avoiding
> potential issues.  How important do you think it is to tackle this type
> of "hypothetical" issues as a package developer?  It's a question of
> priority for me.  I do not feel that I have sufficient knowledge and
> skill set to tackle it right now; if the priority is not so high, I think
> I would leave it (for now, but this "for now" would be for a long time).
> If priority is high, I would need to ask for some help with even framing
> the problem so that we can somehow tackle it.

It is not very important. I did not think about recursive issue when
created the file. Mostly wanted to create a random large file.

You may find
https://www.gnu.org/prep/maintain/maintain.html#Replying-to-Mail
helpful.

Best,
Ihor


^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 36+ messages in thread

* Re: Introducing Org-transclusion
  2021-11-14  8:22             ` Ihor Radchenko
@ 2021-11-14  9:35               ` Ihor Radchenko
  0 siblings, 0 replies; 36+ messages in thread
From: Ihor Radchenko @ 2021-11-14  9:35 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Noboru Ota; +Cc: emacs-orgmode

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1201 bytes --]

Ihor Radchenko <yantar92@gmail.com> writes:

>> 4. This file does not seem realistic for me as a user who use Emacs for
>> writing -- but I see this sort of testing can be useful for avoiding
>> potential issues.  How important do you think it is to tackle this type
>> of "hypothetical" issues as a package developer?  It's a question of
>> priority for me.  I do not feel that I have sufficient knowledge and
>> skill set to tackle it right now; if the priority is not so high, I think
>> I would leave it (for now, but this "for now" would be for a long time).
>> If priority is high, I would need to ask for some help with even framing
>> the problem so that we can somehow tackle it.
>
> It is not very important. I did not think about recursive issue when
> created the file. Mostly wanted to create a random large file.

I tried to create a more realistic large file. AFAIU, there should be no
recursion issue this time. M-x org-transclusion-add-all is very slow in
the attached file. Same for saving file after edits (even if edits are
outside the transcluded parts).

For reference, overlays generally start to be an issue from >10k
overlays. This file just have a few hundreds.

Best,
Ihor


[-- Attachment #2: huge.org --]
[-- Type: application/vnd.lotus-organizer, Size: 11718 bytes --]

*** this is a headline with id a
:PROPERTIES:
:ID:       d7a2303a-712f-4cf4-a4d1-f8fa8daebf22
:END:
**** Subheading
With text in it asdlkj
The headline will be transcluded many times below.
* Everything
** top-level
#+transclude: [[id:d7a2303a-712f-4cf4-a4d1-f8fa8daebf22][this is a headline with id]] 
** top-level
#+transclude: [[id:d7a2303a-712f-4cf4-a4d1-f8fa8daebf22][this is a headline with id]] 
** top-level
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** top-level
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** top-level
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** top-level
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** top-level
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** top-level
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** top-level
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** top-level
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** top-level
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** top-level
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** top-level
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** top-level
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** top-level
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** top-level
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** top-level
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** top-level
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** top-level
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** top-level
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** top-level
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** top-level
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** top-level
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** top-level
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** top-level
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** top-level
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** top-level
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** top-level
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** top-level
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** top-level
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** top-level
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** top-level
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** top-level
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** top-level
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** top-level
#+transclude: [[id:d7a2303a-712f-4cf4-a4d1-f8fa8daebf22][this is a headline with id]] 
** top-level
#+transclude: [[id:d7a2303a-712f-4cf4-a4d1-f8fa8daebf22][this is a headline with id]] 
** top-level
#+transclude: [[id:d7a2303a-712f-4cf4-a4d1-f8fa8daebf22][this is a headline with id]] 
** top-level
#+transclude: [[id:d7a2303a-712f-4cf4-a4d1-f8fa8daebf22][this is a headline with id]] 
** top-level
#+transclude: [[id:d7a2303a-712f-4cf4-a4d1-f8fa8daebf22][this is a headline with id]] 
** top-level
#+transclude: [[id:d7a2303a-712f-4cf4-a4d1-f8fa8daebf22][this is a headline with id]] 
** top-level
#+transclude: [[id:d7a2303a-712f-4cf4-a4d1-f8fa8daebf22][this is a headline with id]] 
** top-level
#+transclude: [[id:d7a2303a-712f-4cf4-a4d1-f8fa8daebf22][this is a headline with id]] 
** top-level
#+transclude: [[id:d7a2303a-712f-4cf4-a4d1-f8fa8daebf22][this is a headline with id]] 
** top-level
#+transclude: [[id:d7a2303a-712f-4cf4-a4d1-f8fa8daebf22][this is a headline with id]] 
** top-level
#+transclude: [[id:d7a2303a-712f-4cf4-a4d1-f8fa8daebf22][this is a headline with id]] 
** top-level
#+transclude: [[id:d7a2303a-712f-4cf4-a4d1-f8fa8daebf22][this is a headline with id]] 
** top-level
#+transclude: [[id:d7a2303a-712f-4cf4-a4d1-f8fa8daebf22][this is a headline with id]] 
** top-level
#+transclude: [[id:d7a2303a-712f-4cf4-a4d1-f8fa8daebf22][this is a headline with id]] 
** top-level
#+transclude: [[id:d7a2303a-712f-4cf4-a4d1-f8fa8daebf22][this is a headline with id]] 
** top-level
#+transclude: [[id:d7a2303a-712f-4cf4-a4d1-f8fa8daebf22][this is a headline with id]] 
** top-level
#+transclude: [[id:d7a2303a-712f-4cf4-a4d1-f8fa8daebf22][this is a headline with id]] 
** top-level
#+transclude: [[id:d7a2303a-712f-4cf4-a4d1-f8fa8daebf22][this is a headline with id]] 
** top-level
#+transclude: [[id:d7a2303a-712f-4cf4-a4d1-f8fa8daebf22][this is a headline with id]] 
** top-level
#+transclude: [[id:d7a2303a-712f-4cf4-a4d1-f8fa8daebf22][this is a headline with id]] 
** top-level
#+transclude: [[id:d7a2303a-712f-4cf4-a4d1-f8fa8daebf22][this is a headline with id]] 
** top-level
#+transclude: [[id:d7a2303a-712f-4cf4-a4d1-f8fa8daebf22][this is a headline with id]] 
** top-level
#+transclude: [[id:d7a2303a-712f-4cf4-a4d1-f8fa8daebf22][this is a headline with id]] 
** top-level
#+transclude: [[id:d7a2303a-712f-4cf4-a4d1-f8fa8daebf22][this is a headline with id]] 
** top-level
#+transclude: [[id:d7a2303a-712f-4cf4-a4d1-f8fa8daebf22][this is a headline with id]] 
** top-level
#+transclude: [[id:d7a2303a-712f-4cf4-a4d1-f8fa8daebf22][this is a headline with id]] 
** top-level
#+transclude: [[id:d7a2303a-712f-4cf4-a4d1-f8fa8daebf22][this is a headline with id]] 
** top-level
#+transclude: [[id:d7a2303a-712f-4cf4-a4d1-f8fa8daebf22][this is a headline with id]] 
** top-level
#+transclude: [[id:d7a2303a-712f-4cf4-a4d1-f8fa8daebf22][this is a headline with id]] 
** top-level
#+transclude: [[id:d7a2303a-712f-4cf4-a4d1-f8fa8daebf22][this is a headline with id]] 
** top-level
#+transclude: [[id:d7a2303a-712f-4cf4-a4d1-f8fa8daebf22][this is a headline with id]] 
** top-level
#+transclude: [[id:d7a2303a-712f-4cf4-a4d1-f8fa8daebf22][this is a headline with id]] 
** top-level
#+transclude: [[id:d7a2303a-712f-4cf4-a4d1-f8fa8daebf22][this is a headline with id]] 
** top-level
#+transclude: [[id:d7a2303a-712f-4cf4-a4d1-f8fa8daebf22][this is a headline with id]] 
** top-level
#+transclude: [[id:d7a2303a-712f-4cf4-a4d1-f8fa8daebf22][this is a headline with id]] 
** top-level
#+transclude: [[id:d7a2303a-712f-4cf4-a4d1-f8fa8daebf22][this is a headline with id]] 
** top-level
#+transclude: [[id:d7a2303a-712f-4cf4-a4d1-f8fa8daebf22][this is a headline with id]] 
* another top

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 36+ messages in thread

end of thread, other threads:[~2021-11-14  9:34 UTC | newest]

Thread overview: 36+ messages (download: mbox.gz / follow: Atom feed)
-- links below jump to the message on this page --
2021-10-30 11:51 Introducing Org-transclusion Noboru Ota
2021-10-30 12:31 ` Juan Manuel Macías
2021-11-01  9:17   ` Noboru Ota
2021-10-30 13:59 ` Ihor Radchenko
2021-11-01  9:11   ` Noboru Ota
2021-11-01 13:24     ` Ihor Radchenko
2021-11-06 10:43       ` Noboru Ota
2021-11-08 15:07         ` Ihor Radchenko
2021-11-10 21:09           ` Noboru Ota
2021-11-14  8:22             ` Ihor Radchenko
2021-11-14  9:35               ` Ihor Radchenko
2021-11-01 20:07     ` Thomas Paulsen
2021-11-01 21:01       ` Noboru Ota
2021-11-02  5:17     ` Timothy
2021-11-05 19:53       ` Noboru Ota
2021-11-05 21:56         ` Tim Cross
2021-11-05 23:20           ` Timothy
2021-11-06 10:14             ` Noboru Ota
2021-11-06 10:22               ` Tim Cross
2021-11-06 11:49                 ` Noboru Ota
2021-11-05 17:11 ` Uwe Brauer
2021-11-05 19:24   ` Noboru Ota
2021-11-05 20:15     ` Uwe Brauer
2021-11-05 23:02       ` Noboru Ota
2021-11-06 14:01         ` Uwe Brauer
2021-11-06 14:25         ` Ihor Radchenko
2021-11-06 14:54           ` Noboru Ota
2021-11-06 15:49             ` Uwe Brauer
2021-11-07  7:34               ` Ihor Radchenko
2021-11-07  8:07                 ` Uwe Brauer
2021-11-07  8:30                   ` Ihor Radchenko
2021-11-07 13:25                     ` Uwe Brauer
2021-11-07 13:41                       ` Ihor Radchenko
2021-11-07 13:56                         ` Uwe Brauer
2021-11-05 19:59   ` Noboru Ota
2021-11-05 20:13     ` Uwe Brauer

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