Re: [wip-cite-new] Initial implementation of `biblatex' citation processor

[Denis Maier <denismaier@mailbox.org>]

Am 20.05.2021 um 15:22 schrieb Bruce D'Arcus:
> On Thu, May 20, 2021 at 9:07 AM Denis Maier <denismaier@mailbox.org> wrote:
>>
>> Am 20.05.2021 um 12:36 schrieb Bruce D'Arcus:
>>> On Thu, May 20, 2021 at 4:18 AM Denis Maier <denismaier@mailbox.org> wrote:
> 
>>>> But maybe cite/plain or cite/basic or so?
>>>
>>> First, are those two suggestions just synonyms for cite/bare?
>>
>> Yes. Nicolas complained about cite/bare so I've thought cite/plain may
>> be nicer. (See autocite=plain) But the biblatex manual uses itself the
>> term "bare".
> 
> OK.
> 
> I don't care; I suggested "bare" because the earlier "alt" was super vague.
> 
>>> Or are you indeed suggesting completely changing the current logic of
>>> these styles and substyles? E.g "bare' substyle becomes rather a
>>> "plain" or "basic" style?
>>
>> I'm not really sure we need bare substyles at all. At least in biblatex
>> it's the basis for the other commands.
> 
> Though see my followup message on autocite config.
> 
> Does that change this discussion?

Why?

[...]

>>
>> #+begin_example
>> At the beginning Doe argues this and that (2020, p. 20). He goes on to
>> say blabla, see ibid., p. 23.
>> #+end_example
>>
>> In order to get the ibid., you'll need a \cite* instead of just a
>> \citeyear or so.
> 
> Shouldn't that example be covered in org-cite by, respectively ...
> 
> cite/year
> cite/bare (or plain)

Hmm, yes. The example was not ideal. Works better in an author title style:

#+begin_example
At the beginning Doe argues this and that (Title, p. 20). Later, Doe 
then says blabla, see ibid., p. 23.
#+end_example

You'd get that with
#+begin_example
At the beginning Doe argues this and that \parencite*[20]{doe}. Later, 
Doe then says blabla, see \cite*[23]{doe}.
#+end_example

cite/year => \citeyear won't work as this will just print the year 
without wrapping it in parentheses. It also won't trigger the ibid. in 
the next citation.
cite/bare = \cite would also work in that particular citation, but an 
author might remove the preceding sentence, which will make the ibid. 
disappear. You will then have a regular bare citation (= "Doe 2020", or 
"Doe, Title") instead of just the year or the title in parentheses.

> 
> ...?
> 
>>> And how would all of this map to natbib and citeproc? >
>>> The style+substyles really should work well across the output formats,
>>> and gracefully fallback if certain variants, particularly in biblatex,
>>> aren't available in other formats.
>>>
>>> Is that the case with your suggested changes?
>>
>> The problem is indeed portability between csl and biblatex (and natbib).
>> I think it's unavoidable that users who use biblatex specific commands
>> loose that to a certain degree. Fallback mappings should be added, of
>> course, but they will only get you so far. We should probably indicate
>> which commands work in all packages so users can make their decisions
>> consciously.
> 
> Yes, it seems highly likely that some of biblatex just won't fully
> work in other formats.
> 
> But ideally we'd limit that.

Absolutely!

Denis