Sending org-mode nodes

Sending org-mode nodes

[lukasz.stelmach]

Hello.

I've just made a note which I would like to send (with its attachment)
via email. Is it possible? I mean, I would like to select a node (C-c @)
and then few keystrokes more and have the letter sent or at least opened
in a mail composing window with the subject set to the title of the
note, attachments attached and waiting for me to choose an addressee.

-- 
Best regards,
Łukasz Stelmach

Re: Sending org-mode nodes

[David Maus]

Hi Lukasz,

At Wed, 18 Nov 2009 17:46:43 +0100,
lukasz.stelmach@iem.pw.edu.pl wrote:
> I've just made a note which I would like to send (with its attachment)
> via email. Is it possible? I mean, I would like to select a node (C-c @)
> and then few keystrokes more and have the letter sent or at least opened
> in a mail composing window with the subject set to the title of the
> note, attachments attached and waiting for me to choose an addressee.

It *should* be possible but as far as I am aware of there's currently
no implementation for this. As Orgmode does not depend on any
particular email program this would require a particular function for
every supported mail program. I.e. a function that executes the right
things to let the mail program compose a new mail.

Hum. As I tend to write important mails first below a corresponding
todo headline, than copy'n'paste it such functionality could be
useful.

I suppose the first thing to do is brewing a function that scrapes all
relevant information (i.e.: subject, content, attachments) and returns
a property list that can be used by mua specific functions to call the
mua and instruct it to create the mail.

What about:

  - Subject: current entries headline without todo keyword and tags

  - Body: the entries content up to the next headline w/o drawers and
    schedule/deadline

  - Attachments: full path to the entry's attachments


Regards,
  -- David

-- 
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Re: Sending org-mode nodes

[lukasz.stelmach]

David Maus <maus.david@gmail.com> writes:

> At Wed, 18 Nov 2009 17:46:43 +0100,
> lukasz.stelmach@iem.pw.edu.pl wrote:
>> I've just made a note which I would like to send (with its attachment)
>> via email. Is it possible? I mean, I would like to select a node (C-c @)
>> and then few keystrokes more and have the letter sent or at least opened
>> in a mail composing window with the subject set to the title of the
>> note, attachments attached and waiting for me to choose an addressee.
>
> It *should* be possible but as far as I am aware of there's currently
> no implementation for this. As Orgmode does not depend on any
> particular email program this would require a particular function for
> every supported mail program. I.e. a function that executes the right
> things to let the mail program compose a new mail.

I suppuse that by writing "program" you mean Emacs' compose-mail, gnus
etc. External handler of course, would be useful too.

> Hum. As I tend to write important mails first below a corresponding
> todo headline, than copy'n'paste it such functionality could be
> useful.
>
> I suppose the first thing to do is brewing a function that scrapes all
> relevant information (i.e.: subject, content, attachments) and returns
> a property list that can be used by mua specific functions to call the
> mua and instruct it to create the mail.
>
> What about:
>
>   - Subject: current entries headline without todo keyword and tags

OK, however, inclusion of todo and/or tags should be optional and
possible for those who would like to exchange those information with one
another. Converting those to iCal attachment is yet another issue.

>   - Body: the entries content up to the next headline w/o drawers and
>     schedule/deadline

Fine but the above note applies.

>   - Attachments: full path to the entry's attachments

That's right and in case of compose-mail/gnus and whatever else a letter
with files attached should appear.

Later at home I thought about it some more:

    - The To, Cc and Bcc headers read from :PROPERTIES: or collected
      with minibuffer.

    - Sent-To field in the PROPERTIES drawer filed after sending
      mail. This might require collecting addresses from within org-mode
      before invoking mail program (the above).

    - Move the list from Sent-To to Old-Sent-To everytime the node or
      its child or its attachment changes (this might be quite difficult
      to implement but awesome to have)

    - Custom mail headers to include in the PROPERTIES drawer. Something
      like
      :PROPERTIES:
      :MailHeader-X-Face: l;aksjdf;ioavh9p8qrty9
      :END
      would result in X-Face: in the mail. X-Face, however, would
      probably be configured with a mua but I am sure someone will find
      it useful.

    - Message-ID derived from node's ID. This would be quite useful for
      associating replies with original notes/nodes.

These are of course my whishful thoughts, especially the one with
Old-Sent-To. I think, however, that org-mode with them implemented would
be even greater tool than it is today.

-- 
Miłego dnia,
Łukasz Stelmach

Re: Re: Sending org-mode nodes

[Sebastian Rose]

lukasz.stelmach@iem.pw.edu.pl writes:
> David Maus <maus.david@gmail.com> writes:
//....//
>     - Message-ID derived from node's ID. This would be quite useful for
>       associating replies with original notes/nodes.


In that case, each mail sent from the subtree would have the same
message-ID, which is invalid, since the ID is made to identify a certain
email. It's supposed to be world wide unique for at least two years.

Your provider would replace your (probably invalid) ID anyway.



> These are of course my whishful thoughts, especially the one with
> Old-Sent-To. I think, however, that org-mode with them implemented would
> be even greater tool than it is today.


I believe it's not implemented, because it's easy to just

  C-c @
  C-x m
  Enter addresses (bbdb helps a lot here)
  DOWN DOWN DOWN DOWN
  C-y
  evtl. edit the contents
  C-c C-C

There's simply no need to implement it for Gnus users.
Emacs+Org+bbdb+Gnus implement it already.


   Sebastian

Re: Sending org-mode nodes

[lukasz.stelmach]

Sebastian Rose <sebastian_rose@gmx.de> writes:
> lukasz.stelmach@iem.pw.edu.pl writes:
>> David Maus <maus.david@gmail.com> writes:
> //....//
>>     - Message-ID derived from node's ID. This would be quite useful for
>>       associating replies with original notes/nodes.
>
>
> In that case, each mail sent from the subtree would have the same
> message-ID, which is invalid, since the ID is made to identify a certain
> email. It's supposed to be world wide unique for at least two years.
>
> Your provider would replace your (probably invalid) ID anyway.

I've written *derived* which means
org-<ID>-<current-time>-<user-mail-address> also fits. Right?

>> These are of course my whishful thoughts, especially the one with
>> Old-Sent-To. I think, however, that org-mode with them implemented would
>> be even greater tool than it is today.
>
>
> I believe it's not implemented, because it's easy to just
>
>   C-c @
>   C-x m
>   Enter addresses (bbdb helps a lot here)
>   DOWN DOWN DOWN DOWN
>   C-y
>   evtl. edit the contents
>   C-c C-C

Which only proves that it is possible to do it automatically.

> There's simply no need to implement it for Gnus users.
> Emacs+Org+bbdb+Gnus implement it already.

How about attachments? How, at least, to get their full paths into kill
ring? Wether we like it or *not* some things can't be done in pure
text/plain.

Putting a headline as a subject (with or without tags) makes it even
better as well as stripping any drawers (leading stars?). From the very
beginning I assumed there is a way of doing what I need just right now
but I described some enhancements that make work even less
troublesome. Imagine:

  C-c C-x m (org-send-node e.g.)
  C-c C-c

would be possible for a well prepared node (bbdb link stored as a
property). What makes nodesending even more appealing to me is that I
can have my emails (at least some of them) well organized with org (and
git) and attached to other things I do.

-- 
Miłego dnia,
Łukasz Stelmach

Re: Re: Sending org-mode nodes

[Sebastian Rose]

lukasz.stelmach@iem.pw.edu.pl writes:
> Sebastian Rose <sebastian_rose@gmx.de> writes:
>> lukasz.stelmach@iem.pw.edu.pl writes:
>>> David Maus <maus.david@gmail.com> writes:
>> //....//
>>>     - Message-ID derived from node's ID. This would be quite useful for
>>>       associating replies with original notes/nodes.
>>
>>
>> In that case, each mail sent from the subtree would have the same
>> message-ID, which is invalid, since the ID is made to identify a certain
>> email. It's supposed to be world wide unique for at least two years.
>>
>> Your provider would replace your (probably invalid) ID anyway.
>
> I've written *derived* which means
> org-<ID>-<current-time>-<user-mail-address> also fits. Right?

Not sure. I only remember bad things with self generated
message-IDs. But I never tried it myself. Reading the RFCs will help.

[...]
>> I believe it's not implemented, because it's easy to just
>>
>>   C-c @
>>   C-x m
>>   Enter addresses (bbdb helps a lot here)
>>   DOWN DOWN DOWN DOWN
>>   C-y
>>   evtl. edit the contents
>>   C-c C-C
>
> Which only proves that it is possible to do it automatically.


Yes, sorry, I don't want to stop anyone from doing it :)


>> There's simply no need to implement it for Gnus users.
>> Emacs+Org+bbdb+Gnus implement it already.
>
> How about attachments? How, at least, to get their full paths into kill
> ring? Wether we like it or *not* some things can't be done in pure
> text/plain.
>
> Putting a headline as a subject (with or without tags) makes it even
> better as well as stripping any drawers (leading stars?). From the very
> beginning I assumed there is a way of doing what I need just right now
> but I described some enhancements that make work even less
> troublesome. Imagine:
>
>   C-c C-x m (org-send-node e.g.)
>   C-c C-c
>
> would be possible for a well prepared node (bbdb link stored as a
> property). What makes nodesending even more appealing to me is that I
> can have my emails (at least some of them) well organized with org (and
> git) and attached to other things I do.



Well, if you often resend a node, it makes absolutely sense, I guess.

I always write my mails from scratch. But, on the other hand, I could
imagine an Org-file with email templates like that. E.g. for mailing to
certain groups of people.



Best wishes

  Sebastian

Re: Re: Sending org-mode nodes

[Eric Schulte]

lukasz.stelmach@iem.pw.edu.pl writes:

> Wether we like it or *not* some things can't be done in pure
> text/plain.

Along these lines, I would be interested to have the ability to send
html mail exported from an org-mode node.  I often want to share tables
with unfortunate souls who use non-fixed-width font email clients which
are better at displaying html then text. -- Eric

Re: Sending org-mode nodes

[Bernt Hansen]

Sebastian Rose <sebastian_rose@gmx.de> writes:

> Well, if you often resend a node, it makes absolutely sense, I guess.
>
> I always write my mails from scratch. But, on the other hand, I could
> imagine an Org-file with email templates like that. E.g. for mailing to
> certain groups of people.

Wrap your email (including headers) in a 

#+begin_src message
...
#+end_src

and C-c ' to get to message mode, C-c C-s to send, and C-c ' to get out.

-Bernt

Re: Sending org-mode nodes

[Łukasz Stelmach]

Bernt Hansen <bernt@norang.ca> writes:

> Sebastian Rose <sebastian_rose@gmx.de> writes:
>> Well, if you often resend a node, it makes absolutely sense, I guess.
>>
>> I always write my mails from scratch. But, on the other hand, I could
>> imagine an Org-file with email templates like that. E.g. for mailing to
>> certain groups of people.
>
> Wrap your email (including headers) in a 
>
> #+begin_src message
> ...
> #+end_src
>
> and C-c ' to get to message mode, C-c C-s to send, and C-c ' to get out.

This doesn't seem to be much less elaborate then the C-@ C-y way and
since you don't copy the text you can't cope with drawers and tags.

-- 
Miłego dnia,
Łukasz Stelmach

Re: Sending org-mode nodes

[Łukasz Stelmach]

Sebastian Rose <sebastian_rose@gmx.de> writes:

> lukasz.stelmach@iem.pw.edu.pl writes:
>> Sebastian Rose <sebastian_rose@gmx.de> writes:
>>> lukasz.stelmach@iem.pw.edu.pl writes:
>>>> David Maus <maus.david@gmail.com> writes:
>>> //....//
>>>>     - Message-ID derived from node's ID. This would be quite useful for
>>>>       associating replies with original notes/nodes.
>>>
>>>
>>> In that case, each mail sent from the subtree would have the same
>>> message-ID, which is invalid, since the ID is made to identify a certain
>>> email. It's supposed to be world wide unique for at least two years.
>>>
>>> Your provider would replace your (probably invalid) ID anyway.
>>
>> I've written *derived* which means
>> org-<ID>-<current-time>-<user-mail-address> also fits. Right?
>
> Not sure. I only remember bad things with self generated
> message-IDs. But I never tried it myself. Reading the RFCs will help.

RFC 2822
   The "Message-ID:" field provides a unique message identifier that
   refers to a particular version of a particular message.  The
   uniqueness of the message identifier is guaranteed by the host that
   generates it (see below). (...) a good method is to put the
   domain name (or a domain literal IP address) of the host on which the
   message identifier was created on the right hand side of the "@", and
   put a combination of the current absolute date and time along with
   some other currently unique (perhaps sequential) identifier available
   on the system (for example, a process id number) on the left hand
   side.

[...]
> Well, if you often resend a node, it makes absolutely sense, I guess.

I've rather thought about preparing an email with org-mode. Making
notes, introducing a structure, think: wrinting a report.

> I always write my mails from scratch. But, on the other hand, I could
> imagine an Org-file with email templates like that. E.g. for mailing to
> certain groups of people.

This brings another option. Copy the whole node with its children into a
message buffer and then run some code to make it look like it should
(drawers, leading stars, attachments, tables etc.)

-- 
Miłego dnia,
Łukasz Stelmach

Re: Sending org-mode nodes

[Eric Schulte]

lukasz.stelmach@iem.pw.edu.pl writes:

> Hello.
>
> I've just made a note which I would like to send (with its attachment)
> via email. Is it possible? I mean, I would like to select a node (C-c @)
> and then few keystrokes more and have the letter sent or at least opened
> in a mail composing window with the subject set to the title of the
> note, attachments attached and waiting for me to choose an addressee.

Perhaps rather than pushing the actual mail sending into an org-mode
function this could be handled as a new export target.  Something like
org-export-as-email or org-export-as-html-mail, which could export the
org-mode buffer (or narrowed subtree -- read "node") to a message buffer
from which it could be easily sent.

Such an export function could be the appropriate place to handle
attachments, html conversion, etc...

Re: Re: Sending org-mode nodes

[Sebastian Rose]

lukasz.stelmach@iem.pw.edu.pl (Łukasz Stelmach) writes:
>> lukasz.stelmach@iem.pw.edu.pl writes:
>>> Sebastian Rose <sebastian_rose@gmx.de> writes:
>>>> lukasz.stelmach@iem.pw.edu.pl writes:
>>>>> David Maus <maus.david@gmail.com> writes:
>>>> //....//
>>>>>     - Message-ID derived from node's ID. This would be quite useful for
>>>>>       associating replies with original notes/nodes.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> In that case, each mail sent from the subtree would have the same
>>>> message-ID, which is invalid, since the ID is made to identify a certain
>>>> email. It's supposed to be world wide unique for at least two years.
>>>>
>>>> Your provider would replace your (probably invalid) ID anyway.
>>>
>>> I've written *derived* which means
>>> org-<ID>-<current-time>-<user-mail-address> also fits. Right?
>>
>> Not sure. I only remember bad things with self generated
>> message-IDs. But I never tried it myself. Reading the RFCs will help.
>
> RFC 2822
>    The "Message-ID:" field provides a unique message identifier that
>    refers to a particular version of a particular message.  The
>    uniqueness of the message identifier is guaranteed by the host that
>    generates it (see below). (...) a good method is to put the
>    domain name (or a domain literal IP address) of the host on which the
>    message identifier was created on the right hand side of the "@", and
>    put a combination of the current absolute date and time along with
>    some other currently unique (perhaps sequential) identifier available
>    on the system (for example, a process id number) on the left hand
>    side.


Still, not sure. From what I read about message IDs, they are to be
produced by mail servers - not email clients.

If my provider (gmx) receives my outgoing mail, it deletes the
Message-ID and generates a new one. They do not want Humpdy Dumpdy to
send mails with their own Message-ID, because there's a risk: it might
not be world-wide unique. I would do that, too.

I cannot set the Message-ID in mailers like Gnus, Evolution, Outlook,
Thunderbird.

If I'm wrong, I'd be interested in a way to that - so I could try it
myself.




  Sebastian

Re: Sending org-mode nodes

[Łukasz Stelmach]

Sebastian Rose <sebastian_rose@gmx.de> writes:

> lukasz.stelmach@iem.pw.edu.pl (Łukasz Stelmach) writes:
>> Sebastian Rose <sebastian_rose@gmx.de> writes:
>>> Not sure. I only remember bad things with self generated
>>> message-IDs. But I never tried it myself. Reading the RFCs will help.
>>
>> RFC 2822
>>    The "Message-ID:" field provides a unique message identifier that
>>    refers to a particular version of a particular message.  The
>>    uniqueness of the message identifier is guaranteed by the host that
>>    generates it (see below). (...)
>
> Still, not sure. From what I read about message IDs, they are to be
> produced by mail servers - not email clients.

Take a look at this for example:
    http://www2.gnu-pascal.de/crystal/gpc/en/raw-mail13179.html

This is a message created with Pine for Linux (look at Message-ID)

> If my provider (gmx) receives my outgoing mail, it deletes the
> Message-ID and generates a new one. They do not want Humpdy Dumpdy to
> send mails with their own Message-ID, because there's a risk: it might
> not be world-wide unique. I would do that, too.

This is wrong. They should do it if the message lacks it but it's
not thier problem if it's not unique. They pass the message and forget
about it. As far as I know no MTA even logs Message-ID.

> I cannot set the Message-ID in mailers like Gnus, Evolution, Outlook,
> Thunderbird.

*You* can't do it which doesn't mean your MUA doesn't do it behind the
scenes.  You can do it with mutt. When you edit with headers and put
Message-ID you get it sent.

> If I'm wrong, I'd be interested in a way to that - so I could try it
> myself.

I'm giving Gnus a try now the message id of this post should be
    <3291978dbeaae3c6ed3b832cce64e3b1-B@dasa3>
I've just put the header above the --text follows this line--

-- 
Miłego dnia,
Łukasz Stelmach

Re: Re: Sending org-mode nodes

[Sebastian Rose]

lukasz.stelmach@iem.pw.edu.pl (Łukasz Stelmach) writes:
>> I cannot set the Message-ID in mailers like Gnus, Evolution, Outlook,
>> Thunderbird.
>
> *You* can't do it which doesn't mean your MUA doesn't do it behind the
> scenes.  You can do it with mutt. When you edit with headers and put
> Message-ID you get it sent.

Well, look at all those message-IDs on this list or in other folders of
your mailbox. They all have message-IDs, assigned from mail servers (but
see below).

>> If I'm wrong, I'd be interested in a way to that - so I could try it
>> myself.
>
> I'm giving Gnus a try now the message id of this post should be
>     <3291978dbeaae3c6ed3b832cce64e3b1-B@dasa3>
> I've just put the header above the --text follows this line--


Yeaaah, it has:

 Message-ID: <3291978dbeaae3c6ed3b832cce64e3b1-B@dasa3>


OK, convinced :-D

Thanks!

I won't deter you anymore from programming the sending of Org-nodes any
longer (and next time I have a question concerning postfix or
sendmail... ;)


Best wishes

  Sebastian