From: tsd@tsdye.com (Thomas S. Dye)
To: Richard Lawrence <richard.lawrence@berkeley.edu>
Cc: emacs-orgmode@gnu.org
Subject: Re: Citation syntax: a revised proposal
Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2015 16:24:39 -1000 [thread overview]
Message-ID: <m2iof0gdnc.fsf@tsdye.com> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <87zj8co3se.fsf@berkeley.edu> (Richard Lawrence's message of "Tue, 17 Feb 2015 09:18:09 -0800")
Hi Richard,
Thanks for your thoughtful responses and your work on the citation
syntax. My "author" concerns have been addressed in this thread and I
look forward to development now. I'm +1 and optimistic about the switch
from home-brew links to citations in my Org mode work.
Thanks for your patience as I digested your proposals. Let me know if
you think I can help in some way.
All the best,
Tom
Richard Lawrence <richard.lawrence@berkeley.edu> writes:
> Hi Tom,
>
> tsd@tsdye.com (Thomas S. Dye) writes:
>
>> I want a syntax that recognizes arbitrary citation commands because I
>> write in Org mode for publication. You want a syntax that recognizes a
>> few commands that it might be possible to support in Org mode backends,
>> some of which are tied loosely, if at all, to publication. Yours might
>> be a noble goal that many Org mode users will find useful (I hope it
>> is!), but I don't think it is (or will be) a syntax useful in my work,
>> for the following reasons:
>>
>> 1) It is easier for me to have the citation command in one place. The
>> decision to represent selected aspects of the citation command in the
>> syntax and other parts in extensions means that I'd have to learn the
>> syntax and then remember which aspects were chosen for representation
>> and which I'd need to develop through extensions of my own. This is a
>> lot more work than I do now to get exactly what I want through links.
>> I'm keen to simplify the authoring process, not make it more complex.
>>
>> 2) Treating footnote citations differently from author-date citations is
>> a non-starter for me. When Science turns me away and the editor
>> suggests that my rant is well suited for another journal, one that
>> happens to use author-date citations, I'll just search all my citation
>> links and replace footcite with parencite before exporting the rant to
>> the suggested journal. IIUC, with the official Org mode syntax, I'd be
>> faced with the tedious process of cutting and pasting footnote text back
>> into the document body.
>
> I do think it is important to support these kinds of uses, and I think
> it would be a shame if the official Org syntax did not make them
> relatively straightforward. You are surely not the only person using
> Org to prepare documents for publication, and I'm sure this kind of
> per-journal `refactoring' is common and important to make easy.
>
> (You're right that our goals differ to some extent. I am still in grad
> school. Preparing documents for academic publication is a privilege I
> hope to have one day; but I am not presently one of the people using Org
> for this on a regular basis, though I hope I can in the future. One
> reason I am concerned to have a citation syntax that can be exported by
> other backends is this: I am anxious that, unless I can also export my
> dissertation to HTML, the final document may never be read by anyone
> except backup programs on the library servers. Another, more serious
> reason is that I work in a field where some journals do not accept LaTeX
> submissions, or disprefer them; so having some citation support in ODT
> export is important.)
>
> I *think* it should be possible to do the kinds of things you've
> described here using the syntax I proposed, but I may not understand
> everything you'd like to do. If not, let's figure out what the other
> things are, and how to accommodate them.
>
> Basically, I think you could ignore the distinctions that the [cite:
> ...] syntax is capable of expressing, and just write all your citations
> like:
>
> [cite: See @Doe99 for more on this point.] %%(:type footnoted)
>
> or, in the syntax Nicolas proposed, something like:
>
> [cite: See @Doe99 for more on this point.]{:type footnoted}
>
> You would then use an export filter to transform citations with this
> :type into the appropriate command, something along the lines of:
>
> (defun footnoted-citation (citation backend info)
> (let ((type (get-citation-type citation)
> (pre (get-citation-prefix citation))
> (post (get-citation-suffix citation))
> (key (get-citation-key citation)))
> (when (and (org-export-derived-backend-p backend 'latex)
> (eq type 'footnoted))
> (format "\footcite[%s][%s]{%s}" pre post key))))
>
> (It would be more complicated than this in the general case, since a
> citation can contain more than one reference as well as common prefix
> and suffix text, but hopefully that illustrates the idea.)
>
> Then, when Science sends you elsewhere, you can just query-replace
> ":type footnoted" with ":type author-date", or whatever the appropriate
> type for the new journal is, which will have a different export filter
> (or a different clause in the same filter).
>
> That is more work than letting Org export citations for you, because it
> means manually processing every :type you use. But maybe it is about
> the same amount of work as what you are doing now with custom links.
>
> This way, although you wouldn't be relying much on the default export
> behavior of citations, you could still get the other advantages of
> having them represented in Org syntax. Those are things like having
> prefix/suffix text stand in a more readable relation to the key, having
> Org parse the different parts out for you, and having individual keys be
> clickable so you can look up the reference in your reference database or
> find an associated PDF.
>
> Would that be sufficient? And are there other kinds of situation where
> you don't think the proposed syntax would work well?
>
> Best,
> Richard
>
>
>
--
Thomas S. Dye
http://www.tsdye.com
next prev parent reply other threads:[~2015-02-18 2:25 UTC|newest]
Thread overview: 163+ messages / expand[flat|nested] mbox.gz Atom feed top
2015-02-15 2:29 Citation syntax: a revised proposal Richard Lawrence
2015-02-15 2:45 ` Richard Lawrence
2015-02-15 3:57 ` Thomas S. Dye
2015-02-15 16:40 ` Richard Lawrence
2015-02-15 19:43 ` Thomas S. Dye
2015-02-16 3:34 ` Matt Price
2015-02-16 8:56 ` Nicolas Goaziou
2015-02-16 9:57 ` Rasmus
2015-02-17 17:18 ` Richard Lawrence
2015-02-17 18:11 ` Rasmus
2015-02-18 0:44 ` Matt Price
2015-02-18 3:38 ` Richard Lawrence
2015-02-18 2:24 ` Thomas S. Dye [this message]
2015-02-18 4:03 ` Richard Lawrence
2015-02-18 9:00 ` Stefan Nobis
2015-02-18 10:11 ` Eric S Fraga
2015-02-18 14:19 ` Nicolas Goaziou
2015-02-18 16:38 ` Richard Lawrence
2015-02-18 18:44 ` Samuel Wales
2015-02-18 18:46 ` Samuel Wales
2015-02-18 20:54 ` Aaron Ecay
2015-02-18 21:21 ` Samuel Wales
2015-02-18 21:24 ` John Kitchin
2015-02-18 19:42 ` Nicolas Goaziou
2015-02-18 20:47 ` Aaron Ecay
2015-02-18 22:43 ` Rasmus
2015-02-18 22:35 ` Rasmus
2015-02-19 17:06 ` Richard Lawrence
2015-02-20 0:10 ` Nicolas Goaziou
2015-02-20 16:44 ` Richard Lawrence
2015-02-20 19:45 ` Samuel Wales
2015-02-20 20:01 ` Rasmus
2015-02-20 22:33 ` Samuel Wales
2015-02-21 11:58 ` Rasmus
2015-02-21 17:25 ` Thomas S. Dye
2015-02-27 0:56 ` Samuel Wales
2015-02-27 8:55 ` Stefan Nobis
2015-02-27 9:56 ` Rasmus
2015-02-21 3:12 ` Richard Lawrence
2015-02-21 12:00 ` Rasmus
2015-02-21 20:19 ` Samuel Wales
2015-02-21 20:36 ` Samuel Wales
2015-02-25 13:59 ` Aaron Ecay
2015-02-25 16:57 ` Richard Lawrence
2015-02-25 22:37 ` Nicolas Goaziou
2015-02-26 5:10 ` Richard Lawrence
2015-03-01 20:35 ` Nicolas Goaziou
2015-03-01 21:31 ` Rasmus
2015-03-02 0:24 ` Thomas S. Dye
2015-03-02 8:57 ` Eric S Fraga
2015-03-02 1:37 ` Thomas S. Dye
2015-03-02 9:23 ` Rasmus
2015-03-02 19:11 ` Aaron Ecay
2015-03-02 20:15 ` Rasmus
2015-03-03 3:14 ` Richard Lawrence
2015-03-03 5:33 ` Avram Lyon
2015-03-03 17:27 ` Richard Lawrence
2015-03-03 17:56 ` Avram Lyon
2015-03-04 16:41 ` Richard Lawrence
2015-03-03 9:24 ` Rasmus
2015-03-03 9:39 ` Rasmus
2015-03-03 14:12 ` Aaron Ecay
2015-03-02 18:50 ` Richard Lawrence
2015-03-02 20:14 ` Nicolas Goaziou
2015-03-02 20:34 ` Rasmus
2015-03-02 22:17 ` Nicolas Goaziou
2015-03-02 22:33 ` Rasmus
2015-03-02 22:45 ` Nicolas Goaziou
2015-03-02 23:05 ` Rasmus
2015-03-02 23:27 ` Nicolas Goaziou
2015-03-02 23:42 ` Rasmus
2015-03-03 2:48 ` Richard Lawrence
2015-03-03 8:43 ` Nicolas Goaziou
2015-03-03 16:59 ` Richard Lawrence
2015-03-04 0:43 ` Matt Price
2015-03-08 0:16 ` Nicolas Goaziou
2015-03-03 14:23 ` Aaron Ecay
2015-03-02 18:54 ` Aaron Ecay
2015-03-02 20:26 ` Nicolas Goaziou
2015-03-03 2:53 ` Richard Lawrence
2015-03-03 8:38 ` Nicolas Goaziou
2015-03-03 9:13 ` Rasmus
2015-03-03 16:12 ` Richard Lawrence
2015-03-03 14:25 ` Aaron Ecay
2015-03-02 20:53 ` Rasmus
2015-03-03 14:57 ` Aaron Ecay
2015-03-03 15:41 ` Rasmus
2015-03-03 15:58 ` Ken Mankoff
2015-03-03 16:08 ` Rasmus
2015-03-03 17:13 ` Richard Lawrence
2015-03-10 3:44 ` Aaron Ecay
2015-03-10 9:49 ` Rasmus
2015-03-11 1:51 ` Aaron Ecay
2015-03-11 6:04 ` Thomas S. Dye
2015-03-10 16:31 ` Richard Lawrence
2015-03-11 2:21 ` Aaron Ecay
2015-03-11 17:33 ` Richard Lawrence
2015-03-13 18:13 ` Richard Lawrence
2015-03-17 5:15 ` Richard Lawrence
2015-03-17 9:27 ` Andreas Leha
2015-03-17 16:26 ` Richard Lawrence
2015-03-17 20:42 ` Andreas Leha
2015-03-17 21:34 ` Richard Lawrence
2015-03-18 1:12 ` Matt Price
2015-03-18 15:19 ` Richard Lawrence
2015-02-25 18:08 ` Thomas S. Dye
2015-02-26 21:30 ` Aaron Ecay
2015-02-26 23:50 ` Thomas S. Dye
2015-02-27 8:49 ` Stefan Nobis
2015-02-27 16:35 ` Richard Lawrence
2015-02-27 10:09 ` Rasmus
2015-03-02 5:48 ` Thomas S. Dye
2015-03-02 12:22 ` Aaron Ecay
2015-03-02 13:53 ` Thomas S. Dye
2015-03-02 19:02 ` Aaron Ecay
2015-02-20 5:27 ` Melanie Bacou
2015-02-20 16:49 ` Richard Lawrence
2015-02-24 7:08 ` Vaidheeswaran C
2015-02-25 4:29 ` Richard Lawrence
2015-02-25 5:57 ` Vaidheeswaran C
2015-02-15 11:17 ` Tory S. Anderson
2015-02-15 11:57 ` Rasmus
2015-02-15 17:05 ` Richard Lawrence
2015-02-16 8:53 ` Stefan Nobis
2015-02-16 17:52 ` Thomas S. Dye
2015-02-15 17:23 ` Nicolas Goaziou
2015-03-09 10:40 ` Sebastien Vauban
2015-03-09 10:50 ` Vaidheeswaran C
2015-02-15 17:19 ` Nicolas Goaziou
2015-02-15 17:37 ` Rasmus
2015-02-15 17:55 ` Nicolas Goaziou
2015-02-15 19:30 ` John Kitchin
2015-02-15 18:07 ` Richard Lawrence
2015-02-15 18:25 ` Nicolas Goaziou
2015-02-15 19:05 ` Aaron Ecay
2015-02-15 19:18 ` Nicolas Goaziou
2015-02-15 19:38 ` Aaron Ecay
2015-02-15 20:13 ` Nicolas Goaziou
2015-02-15 20:23 ` Rasmus
2015-02-16 9:07 ` Stefan Nobis
2015-02-16 16:59 ` Richard Lawrence
2015-02-16 17:43 ` Nicolas Goaziou
2015-02-16 18:39 ` Rasmus
2015-02-16 19:16 ` Thomas S. Dye
2015-02-16 19:40 ` Rasmus
2015-02-15 20:49 ` John Kitchin
2015-02-16 16:18 ` Richard Lawrence
2015-02-16 18:21 ` John Kitchin
2015-02-16 12:05 ` Eric S Fraga
2015-02-16 13:10 ` William Denton
2015-02-16 13:42 ` John Kitchin
2015-02-16 16:19 ` Nicolas Goaziou
2015-02-16 17:28 ` John Kitchin
2015-02-16 18:49 ` Rasmus
2015-02-16 19:16 ` John Kitchin
2015-02-23 7:26 ` Vaidheeswaran
2015-02-16 16:35 ` Jorge A. Alfaro-Murillo
2015-02-16 17:56 ` Stefan Nobis
2015-02-16 18:24 ` John Kitchin
2015-02-16 18:39 ` Jorge A. Alfaro-Murillo
2015-02-16 19:19 ` Jorge A. Alfaro-Murillo
2015-02-17 6:47 ` Stefan Nobis
2015-02-16 16:45 ` Richard Lawrence
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