* Is the cascading logic of outlines a feature, or a design bug?
@ 2022-12-26 6:47 abq
2022-12-26 7:51 ` tomas
` (3 more replies)
0 siblings, 4 replies; 22+ messages in thread
From: abq @ 2022-12-26 6:47 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: emacs-orgmode
https://orgmode.org/worg/org-faq.html#closing-outline-sections answers
the question:
"Can I close an outline section without starting a new section?"
The answer given is:
"no. Org-mode adheres to the cascading logic of outlines, in which a
section is closed only by another section that occupies an equal or
greater level."
Is that limitation a feature, or a design bug? E.g. if someone proposes
enhancing the Unix directory system to support multiple files with the
same filename in one directory, the proposal would be rejected, with the
explanation that the limitation of only one file per filename is a
feature, not a bug, since it enables the name to uniquely identify the
file. (If you want to claim it's a bug, please at least edit your
subject line, or preferably start a new thread.)
Likewise, is the inability to close an org-mode outline section without
starting a new section really a feature? If so, what benefit does the
restriction provide, that would be lost by relaxing the restriction? Or
is the restriction really just a bug with seniority, and the difficulty
of fixing it (or the compatibility headaches caused by fixing it) would
outweigh the benefits?
Andy
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 22+ messages in thread* Re: Is the cascading logic of outlines a feature, or a design bug? 2022-12-26 6:47 Is the cascading logic of outlines a feature, or a design bug? abq @ 2022-12-26 7:51 ` tomas 2022-12-26 10:12 ` Ihor Radchenko ` (2 subsequent siblings) 3 siblings, 0 replies; 22+ messages in thread From: tomas @ 2022-12-26 7:51 UTC (permalink / raw) To: emacs-orgmode [-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 957 bytes --] On Mon, Dec 26, 2022 at 06:47:37AM +0000, abq@bitrot.link wrote: > Likewise, is the inability to close an org-mode outline section without > starting a new section really a feature? [...] Or is > the restriction really just a bug with seniority, and the difficulty of > fixing it (or the compatibility headaches caused by fixing it) would > outweigh the benefits? I guess the answer depends on your perspective. Try to reformulate your question in another way, perhaps then it leads to something. I must admit I've missed the possibility for Org to continue a section after a deeper level one from time to time. I've resorted to "local conventions" (e.g. a headline with "-" as a title). But all in all, that's what Org's document model is, and you won't change it because it's (sometimes) more convenient to you. What you might try is to find enough people to agree in a common way to work around it, if necessary. Cheers -- t [-- Attachment #2: signature.asc --] [-- Type: application/pgp-signature, Size: 195 bytes --] ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 22+ messages in thread
* Re: Is the cascading logic of outlines a feature, or a design bug? 2022-12-26 6:47 Is the cascading logic of outlines a feature, or a design bug? abq 2022-12-26 7:51 ` tomas @ 2022-12-26 10:12 ` Ihor Radchenko 2022-12-26 17:23 ` abq 2022-12-26 12:38 ` Max Nikulin 2022-12-28 7:14 ` Stefan Nobis 3 siblings, 1 reply; 22+ messages in thread From: Ihor Radchenko @ 2022-12-26 10:12 UTC (permalink / raw) To: abq; +Cc: emacs-orgmode abq@bitrot.link writes: > https://orgmode.org/worg/org-faq.html#closing-outline-sections answers > the question: > "Can I close an outline section without starting a new section?" > > The answer given is: > "no. Org-mode adheres to the cascading logic of outlines, in which a > section is closed only by another section that occupies an equal or > greater level." > > Is that limitation a feature, or a design bug? A "bug" implies that it is something wrong. Could you please elaborate? > Likewise, is the inability to close an org-mode outline section without > starting a new section really a feature? It is not a bug. It is not a feature. Just a design decision. With pros and cons. Doing the opposite would also have pros and cons. I suggest you to elaborate about what exact properties of outlines you are missing. -- Ihor Radchenko // yantar92, Org mode contributor, Learn more about Org mode at <https://orgmode.org/>. Support Org development at <https://liberapay.com/org-mode>, or support my work at <https://liberapay.com/yantar92> ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 22+ messages in thread
* Re: Is the cascading logic of outlines a feature, or a design bug? 2022-12-26 10:12 ` Ihor Radchenko @ 2022-12-26 17:23 ` abq 2022-12-26 17:32 ` tomas 2022-12-26 17:36 ` Ihor Radchenko 0 siblings, 2 replies; 22+ messages in thread From: abq @ 2022-12-26 17:23 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Ihor Radchenko; +Cc: emacs-orgmode On 2022-12-26 10:12, Ihor Radchenko wrote: > It is not a bug. It is not a feature. Just a design decision. With pros > and cons. Doing the opposite would also have pros and cons. > > I suggest you to elaborate about what exact properties of outlines you > are missing. OK, a design tradeoff was made, with a cost and a benefit. The cost was the restriction at hand. Its mention in the FAQ is indication that it does actually affect people. Tomas also just replied that it's sometimes an obstacle for him, which he needs to work around. So, that addresses the cost. What was the benefit? ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 22+ messages in thread
* Re: Is the cascading logic of outlines a feature, or a design bug? 2022-12-26 17:23 ` abq @ 2022-12-26 17:32 ` tomas 2022-12-26 17:36 ` Ihor Radchenko 1 sibling, 0 replies; 22+ messages in thread From: tomas @ 2022-12-26 17:32 UTC (permalink / raw) To: emacs-orgmode [-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 602 bytes --] On Mon, Dec 26, 2022 at 05:23:45PM +0000, abq@bitrot.link wrote: [...] > So, that addresses the cost. What was the benefit? I think it's more elucidating to view that in terms of (technical) path dependency [1]: Org inherits from Outline, which doesn't think in terms of (recursive) sections (as would, e.g. XML) but in terms of headlines. Sections came as a secondary concept (whatever is "below" a headline). Changing the model in-flight seems prohibitive at this stage, with all the accumulated wetware. Cheers [1] sometimes called "hysterical raisins" around here -- t [-- Attachment #2: signature.asc --] [-- Type: application/pgp-signature, Size: 195 bytes --] ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 22+ messages in thread
* Re: Is the cascading logic of outlines a feature, or a design bug? 2022-12-26 17:23 ` abq 2022-12-26 17:32 ` tomas @ 2022-12-26 17:36 ` Ihor Radchenko 2022-12-26 18:37 ` tomas 1 sibling, 1 reply; 22+ messages in thread From: Ihor Radchenko @ 2022-12-26 17:36 UTC (permalink / raw) To: abq; +Cc: emacs-orgmode abq@bitrot.link writes: > So, that addresses the cost. What was the benefit? For example, export. Things like LaTeX or Markdown or ODT do not support document section continuation. -- Ihor Radchenko // yantar92, Org mode contributor, Learn more about Org mode at <https://orgmode.org/>. Support Org development at <https://liberapay.com/org-mode>, or support my work at <https://liberapay.com/yantar92> ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 22+ messages in thread
* Re: Is the cascading logic of outlines a feature, or a design bug? 2022-12-26 17:36 ` Ihor Radchenko @ 2022-12-26 18:37 ` tomas 2022-12-27 7:21 ` Marcin Borkowski 0 siblings, 1 reply; 22+ messages in thread From: tomas @ 2022-12-26 18:37 UTC (permalink / raw) To: emacs-orgmode [-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 715 bytes --] On Mon, Dec 26, 2022 at 05:36:06PM +0000, Ihor Radchenko wrote: > abq@bitrot.link writes: > > > So, that addresses the cost. What was the benefit? > > For example, export. Things like LaTeX or Markdown or ODT do not support > document section continuation. Here's the LaTeX perspective, which perhaps illustrates that "print", our grandmother, didn't necessarily think hierarchically: https://tex.stackexchange.com/questions/174651/latex-end-section-or-subsection (Spoiler: LaTeX does as print and Org, as Ihor says -- and different to XML). At first it seems surprising that there are those two perspectives and there's no "right" or "wrong", as the OP seems to assume. Cheers -- t [-- Attachment #2: signature.asc --] [-- Type: application/pgp-signature, Size: 195 bytes --] ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 22+ messages in thread
* Re: Is the cascading logic of outlines a feature, or a design bug? 2022-12-26 18:37 ` tomas @ 2022-12-27 7:21 ` Marcin Borkowski 2022-12-27 9:00 ` tomas 0 siblings, 1 reply; 22+ messages in thread From: Marcin Borkowski @ 2022-12-27 7:21 UTC (permalink / raw) To: tomas; +Cc: emacs-orgmode On 2022-12-26, at 19:37, tomas@tuxteam.de wrote: > On Mon, Dec 26, 2022 at 05:36:06PM +0000, Ihor Radchenko wrote: >> abq@bitrot.link writes: >> >> > So, that addresses the cost. What was the benefit? >> >> For example, export. Things like LaTeX or Markdown or ODT do not support >> document section continuation. Markdown being a very poor example, since it is basically a format for first drafts (and it's bad even at that). > > Here's the LaTeX perspective, which perhaps illustrates that "print", > our grandmother, didn't necessarily think hierarchically: > > https://tex.stackexchange.com/questions/174651/latex-end-section-or-subsection > > (Spoiler: LaTeX does as print and Org, as Ihor says -- and different > to XML). > > At first it seems surprising that there are those two perspectives > and there's no "right" or "wrong", as the OP seems to assume. FWIW, I think LaTeX also got this "wrong" (and perhaps surprisingly, XML "right";-)). AFAIR, ConTeXt (which I haven't used for several years, so I might be mistaken) does "TRT" here. OTOH, I agree that it looks surprising, and we mathematicians (and CS/IT people) would like to have a nice, tree-like structure, but I suspect that not allowing to continue the parent section after the subsection ends is a wise decision. I highly suspect this would be very confusing for 99% people, which might be precisely the benefit the OP is asking about. Just my 2 cents, -- Marcin Borkowski http://mbork.pl ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 22+ messages in thread
* Re: Is the cascading logic of outlines a feature, or a design bug? 2022-12-27 7:21 ` Marcin Borkowski @ 2022-12-27 9:00 ` tomas 2022-12-28 6:40 ` Marcin Borkowski 0 siblings, 1 reply; 22+ messages in thread From: tomas @ 2022-12-27 9:00 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Marcin Borkowski; +Cc: emacs-orgmode [-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 2156 bytes --] On Tue, Dec 27, 2022 at 08:21:28AM +0100, Marcin Borkowski wrote: [...] > > At first it seems surprising that there are those two perspectives > > and there's no "right" or "wrong", as the OP seems to assume. > > FWIW, I think LaTeX also got this "wrong" (and perhaps surprisingly, XML > "right";-)). AFAIR, ConTeXt (which I haven't used for several years, so > I might be mistaken) does "TRT" here. LaTeX picked it up from TeX which picked it up from... print (more specifically from academic print). Which has been optimised for a couple o'hundred years. Donald Knuth was mathematician and computer scientist (and pretty fastidious with the smalles details), so I'd assume his choice of this "flavour" of document model for TeX was pretty conscious, not an accident. > OTOH, I agree that it looks surprising, and we mathematicians (and CS/IT > people) would like to have a nice, tree-like structure, but I suspect > that not allowing to continue the parent section after the subsection > ends is a wise decision. I highly suspect this would be very confusing > for 99% people, which might be precisely the benefit the OP is asking > about. You might not like it -- but I stay by my assessment that there isn't a "right" or "wrong" here. The most important thing, IMHO, is to be aware of those two models (most of us stumble unexpectedly into it and go "WAT?" -- although it has made it to the FAQ by now :) It isn't difficult to model the one with the other. I already proposed having one canonical heading meaning "back to that level", say dash or dot, like so: * General animals Some text about general animals ** arthropods spiders and things * - More about animals in general ** vertebrates so-and-so (You could even do with the space alone, but playing with significant trailing spaces is asking for trouble: i'd go for some unobtrusive char unlikely to be a heading text for itself). Now for that to be useful, you'd have to gather enough users who like the idea and use the convention. It's a communication medium, after all :-) Cheers -- t [-- Attachment #2: signature.asc --] [-- Type: application/pgp-signature, Size: 195 bytes --] ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 22+ messages in thread
* Re: Is the cascading logic of outlines a feature, or a design bug? 2022-12-27 9:00 ` tomas @ 2022-12-28 6:40 ` Marcin Borkowski 2022-12-28 7:28 ` Heinz Tuechler 0 siblings, 1 reply; 22+ messages in thread From: Marcin Borkowski @ 2022-12-28 6:40 UTC (permalink / raw) To: tomas; +Cc: emacs-orgmode On 2022-12-27, at 10:00, tomas@tuxteam.de wrote: > On Tue, Dec 27, 2022 at 08:21:28AM +0100, Marcin Borkowski wrote: > > [...] > >> > At first it seems surprising that there are those two perspectives >> > and there's no "right" or "wrong", as the OP seems to assume. >> >> FWIW, I think LaTeX also got this "wrong" (and perhaps surprisingly, XML >> "right";-)). AFAIR, ConTeXt (which I haven't used for several years, so >> I might be mistaken) does "TRT" here. > > LaTeX picked it up from TeX which picked it up from... print (more Hm. It's been decades since I used plain TeX on a daily basis, so I don't remember exactly, but it seems to me that plain TeX doesn't even have sectioning macros... > specifically from academic print). Which has been optimised for a > couple o'hundred years. Well, yes, though one might argue that it's only a local optimum;-). > Donald Knuth was mathematician and computer scientist (and pretty > fastidious with the smalles details), so I'd assume his choice of > this "flavour" of document model for TeX was pretty conscious, not > an accident. Actually, this is much stronger argument than it might seem. >> OTOH, I agree that it looks surprising, and we mathematicians (and CS/IT >> people) would like to have a nice, tree-like structure, but I suspect >> that not allowing to continue the parent section after the subsection >> ends is a wise decision. I highly suspect this would be very confusing >> for 99% people, which might be precisely the benefit the OP is asking >> about. > > You might not like it -- but I stay by my assessment that there isn't > a "right" or "wrong" here. Well, I was a bit tongue-in-cheek here - I meant "right" in the mathematician/computer scientist mind, which is, let's say, a very peculiar type of mind... > The most important thing, IMHO, is to be aware of those two models > (most of us stumble unexpectedly into it and go "WAT?" -- although > it has made it to the FAQ by now :) > > It isn't difficult to model the one with the other. I already proposed > having one canonical heading meaning "back to that level", say dash > or dot, like so: > > * General animals > Some text about general animals > > ** arthropods > spiders and things > > * - > More about animals in general > > ** vertebrates > so-and-so > > (You could even do with the space alone, but playing with significant > trailing spaces is asking for trouble: i'd go for some unobtrusive char > unlikely to be a heading text for itself). +1 for avoiding significant trailing spaces, and agreed. > Now for that to be useful, you'd have to gather enough users who > like the idea and use the convention. It's a communication medium, > after all :-) Fair point. And frankly, I find this unlikely to happen. As I said, for me the main argument against "continuation sections" is that they would probably be /extremely/ confusing to most readers. Best, -- Marcin Borkowski http://mbork.pl ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 22+ messages in thread
* Re: Is the cascading logic of outlines a feature, or a design bug? 2022-12-28 6:40 ` Marcin Borkowski @ 2022-12-28 7:28 ` Heinz Tuechler 2022-12-28 9:29 ` tomas 0 siblings, 1 reply; 22+ messages in thread From: Heinz Tuechler @ 2022-12-28 7:28 UTC (permalink / raw) To: emacs-orgmode >> Donald Knuth was mathematician and computer scientist ... According to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Donald_Knuth, Donald Knuth is still alive. So maybe "Donald Knuth *is* mathematician ..." best regards, Heinz ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 22+ messages in thread
* Re: Is the cascading logic of outlines a feature, or a design bug? 2022-12-28 7:28 ` Heinz Tuechler @ 2022-12-28 9:29 ` tomas 0 siblings, 0 replies; 22+ messages in thread From: tomas @ 2022-12-28 9:29 UTC (permalink / raw) To: emacs-orgmode [-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 357 bytes --] On Wed, Dec 28, 2022 at 08:28:58AM +0100, Heinz Tuechler wrote: > > > Donald Knuth was mathematician and computer scientist ... > According to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Donald_Knuth, Donald Knuth is > still alive. So maybe "Donald Knuth *is* mathematician ..." > best regards, Very much true. Chalk that up to *my* old age ;-) Cheers -- t [-- Attachment #2: signature.asc --] [-- Type: application/pgp-signature, Size: 195 bytes --] ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 22+ messages in thread
* Re: Is the cascading logic of outlines a feature, or a design bug? 2022-12-26 6:47 Is the cascading logic of outlines a feature, or a design bug? abq 2022-12-26 7:51 ` tomas 2022-12-26 10:12 ` Ihor Radchenko @ 2022-12-26 12:38 ` Max Nikulin 2022-12-26 17:03 ` abq 2022-12-28 7:14 ` Stefan Nobis 3 siblings, 1 reply; 22+ messages in thread From: Max Nikulin @ 2022-12-26 12:38 UTC (permalink / raw) To: abq, emacs-orgmode On 26/12/2022 13:47, abq@bitrot.link wrote: > https://orgmode.org/worg/org-faq.html#closing-outline-sections answers > The answer given is: > "no. Org-mode adheres to the cascading logic of outlines, in which a > section is closed only by another section that occupies an equal or > greater level." > Is that limitation a feature, or a design bug? You may guess that this item appeared in FAQ after numerous discussions on this mailing list. Search its archive for details. The most close feature is inline tasks, there are other structures like #+begin_something/#+end_something blocks and :drawer:...:end: that have closing marker. Some Org syntax limitations are imposed to be able efficiently determine current context using regexp searches. So "** Heading" lines must be escaped in comments, nested identical #+begin_block structures are not allowed. Another point is treating Org files with syntax errors. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 22+ messages in thread
* Re: Is the cascading logic of outlines a feature, or a design bug? 2022-12-26 12:38 ` Max Nikulin @ 2022-12-26 17:03 ` abq 2022-12-27 16:02 ` Max Nikulin 0 siblings, 1 reply; 22+ messages in thread From: abq @ 2022-12-26 17:03 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Max Nikulin; +Cc: emacs-orgmode On 2022-12-26 12:38, Max Nikulin wrote: > You may guess that this item appeared in FAQ after numerous > discussions on this mailing list. Search its archive for details. > > The most close feature is inline tasks, there are other structures > like #+begin_something/#+end_something blocks and :drawer:...:end: > that have closing marker. > > Some Org syntax limitations are imposed to be able efficiently > determine current context using regexp searches. So "** Heading" lines > must be escaped in comments, nested identical #+begin_block structures > are not allowed. Another point is treating Org files with syntax > errors. When I searched prior to posting, the only info I could find was how to work around the restriction. But my question isn't how to work around it; my question is, what is its purpose? It doesn't affect regexp search efficiency. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 22+ messages in thread
* Re: Is the cascading logic of outlines a feature, or a design bug? 2022-12-26 17:03 ` abq @ 2022-12-27 16:02 ` Max Nikulin 2022-12-28 1:52 ` Samuel Wales 0 siblings, 1 reply; 22+ messages in thread From: Max Nikulin @ 2022-12-27 16:02 UTC (permalink / raw) To: abq; +Cc: emacs-orgmode On 27/12/2022 00:03, abq@bitrot.link wrote: > When I searched prior to posting, the only info I could find was how to > work around the restriction. But my question isn't how to work around > it; my question is, what is its purpose? I have an impression that I saw messages explaining that the real problem is to implement the feature consistently and to avoid too much code for handling it in various functions. I do not have specific links. Reading such discussion I would pay more attention to messages from Carsten, Bastien, Nicolas. > It doesn't affect regexp search efficiency. Regexps would be more complex, sometimes several iterations would be required. You may underestimate amount of code that should be adapted for this feature. In general, I do not mind to have such feature e.g. to have an overview headings with comments between deep dive notes. However if I desperately need it, I will write a custom unfolding function (for tagged subheadings or for drawers). I am unsure that benefits outweigh additional complexity and performance penalty. This topic belongs to a several feature requests that pop up regularly and fade with almost no outcome (intra-word emphasis, merged cells in tables). ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 22+ messages in thread
* Re: Is the cascading logic of outlines a feature, or a design bug? 2022-12-27 16:02 ` Max Nikulin @ 2022-12-28 1:52 ` Samuel Wales 0 siblings, 0 replies; 22+ messages in thread From: Samuel Wales @ 2022-12-28 1:52 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Max Nikulin; +Cc: abq, emacs-orgmode inline tasks are arguably a limited implementation of the other model and have had issues where they didn't work well with one feature or another of org, so much so that i got into the habit of not using them. thus, modulo parsers, inline tasks might be used as a very rough lower bound of the havoc a full implementation might wreak, including on 3rd party tools and user code? dunno. just an idea. On 12/27/22, Max Nikulin <manikulin@gmail.com> wrote: > On 27/12/2022 00:03, abq@bitrot.link wrote: >> When I searched prior to posting, the only info I could find was how to >> work around the restriction. But my question isn't how to work around >> it; my question is, what is its purpose? > > I have an impression that I saw messages explaining that the real > problem is to implement the feature consistently and to avoid too much > code for handling it in various functions. I do not have specific links. > Reading such discussion I would pay more attention to messages from > Carsten, Bastien, Nicolas. > >> It doesn't affect regexp search efficiency. > > Regexps would be more complex, sometimes several iterations would be > required. You may underestimate amount of code that should be adapted > for this feature. > > In general, I do not mind to have such feature e.g. to have an overview > headings with comments between deep dive notes. However if I desperately > need it, I will write a custom unfolding function (for tagged > subheadings or for drawers). I am unsure that benefits outweigh > additional complexity and performance penalty. > > This topic belongs to a several feature requests that pop up regularly > and fade with almost no outcome (intra-word emphasis, merged cells in > tables). > > -- The Kafka Pandemic A blog about science, health, human rights, and misopathy: https://thekafkapandemic.blogspot.com ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 22+ messages in thread
* Re: Is the cascading logic of outlines a feature, or a design bug? 2022-12-26 6:47 Is the cascading logic of outlines a feature, or a design bug? abq ` (2 preceding siblings ...) 2022-12-26 12:38 ` Max Nikulin @ 2022-12-28 7:14 ` Stefan Nobis 2022-12-28 7:21 ` Samuel Wales ` (2 more replies) 3 siblings, 3 replies; 22+ messages in thread From: Stefan Nobis @ 2022-12-28 7:14 UTC (permalink / raw) To: emacs-orgmode abq@bitrot.link writes: > Likewise, is the inability to close an org-mode outline section > without starting a new section really a feature? I think so. :) First, technically, it makes the sections (and their contents) a tree instead of a graph (DAG) and trees are easier to understand and handle. As sections are a quite essential and important data structure of Org, it usually means that it would be hard to change it (meaning that it could affect a really big part of the code base). Another rather technical point is, that most export formats like HTML and LaTeX/PDF are also tree like structures (regarding sections). Therefore it is quite a challenge to export a DAG like structure to these formats. But also semantically I would say it is a feature. Have you ever seen a book, longer web page, or even article (with multiple sections) that tries to close one section and continue any previous sibling or its parent? I have never seen such kind of textual structuring and my guess is, that this would be hard for a reader to understand and follow. If the intermediate text is small, just make it a list (maybe a description list). If a new (sub-)section seems a good idea, then structure everything accordingly and tree-like. For example: --8<---------------cut here---------------start------------->8--- * Topic Some initial words. ** Subtopic 1 More text. ** Subtopic 2 Another paragraph. ** Other Aspects There may be more to say. --8<---------------cut here---------------end--------------->8--- IMHO there is always a way to structure sections, such that a tree like structure suffices. And IMHO this is easier to read an follow. If you try to use Org for other kinds of data and this data is naturally structured like a DAG (or even a cyclic graph), then I think a database or other means are better suited than Org. -- Until the next mail..., Stefan. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 22+ messages in thread
* Re: Is the cascading logic of outlines a feature, or a design bug? 2022-12-28 7:14 ` Stefan Nobis @ 2022-12-28 7:21 ` Samuel Wales 2022-12-28 8:45 ` Greg Minshall 2022-12-28 9:34 ` tomas 2 siblings, 0 replies; 22+ messages in thread From: Samuel Wales @ 2022-12-28 7:21 UTC (permalink / raw) To: emacs-orgmode stefan's example reminded me that there is another common request, with :noexportheading kludges, in which you do not export a headline itself. you could try one of those perhaps. that assumes you want this for export and not for the .org. On 12/28/22, Stefan Nobis <stefan-ml@snobis.de> wrote: > abq@bitrot.link writes: > >> Likewise, is the inability to close an org-mode outline section >> without starting a new section really a feature? > > I think so. :) > > First, technically, it makes the sections (and their contents) a tree > instead of a graph (DAG) and trees are easier to understand and > handle. As sections are a quite essential and important data structure > of Org, it usually means that it would be hard to change it (meaning > that it could affect a really big part of the code base). > > Another rather technical point is, that most export formats like HTML > and LaTeX/PDF are also tree like structures (regarding sections). > Therefore it is quite a challenge to export a DAG like structure to > these formats. > > But also semantically I would say it is a feature. Have you ever seen > a book, longer web page, or even article (with multiple sections) that > tries to close one section and continue any previous sibling or its > parent? I have never seen such kind of textual structuring and my > guess is, that this would be hard for a reader to understand and > follow. If the intermediate text is small, just make it a list (maybe > a description list). If a new (sub-)section seems a good idea, then > structure everything accordingly and tree-like. For example: > > --8<---------------cut here---------------start------------->8--- > > * Topic > Some initial words. > ** Subtopic 1 > More text. > ** Subtopic 2 > Another paragraph. > ** Other Aspects > There may be more to say. > > --8<---------------cut here---------------end--------------->8--- > > IMHO there is always a way to structure sections, such that a tree > like structure suffices. And IMHO this is easier to read an follow. > > If you try to use Org for other kinds of data and this data is > naturally structured like a DAG (or even a cyclic graph), then I think > a database or other means are better suited than Org. > > -- > Until the next mail..., > Stefan. > > -- The Kafka Pandemic A blog about science, health, human rights, and misopathy: https://thekafkapandemic.blogspot.com ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 22+ messages in thread
* Re: Is the cascading logic of outlines a feature, or a design bug? 2022-12-28 7:14 ` Stefan Nobis 2022-12-28 7:21 ` Samuel Wales @ 2022-12-28 8:45 ` Greg Minshall 2022-12-28 9:13 ` Ihor Radchenko 2022-12-28 9:34 ` tomas 2 siblings, 1 reply; 22+ messages in thread From: Greg Minshall @ 2022-12-28 8:45 UTC (permalink / raw) To: emacs-orgmode Stefan, i am agnostic about this. but, ... > But also semantically I would say it is a feature. Have you ever seen > a book, longer web page, or even article (with multiple sections) that > tries to close one section and continue any previous sibling or its > parent? one sometimes see "sub-sections" indented from the main flow. at the end of the sub-section, the indentation reverts to that of the main flow. in the case of one level, this works fairly well (the case where the end of the sub-section corresponds to the end of a "physical" page is one place it works less well). also, one *could* consider "boxes" (e.g., in textbooks) something like this, though they tend to exist outside the main flow. cheers, Greg ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 22+ messages in thread
* Re: Is the cascading logic of outlines a feature, or a design bug? 2022-12-28 8:45 ` Greg Minshall @ 2022-12-28 9:13 ` Ihor Radchenko 2022-12-28 9:34 ` Greg Minshall 0 siblings, 1 reply; 22+ messages in thread From: Ihor Radchenko @ 2022-12-28 9:13 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Greg Minshall; +Cc: emacs-orgmode Greg Minshall <minshall@umich.edu> writes: >> But also semantically I would say it is a feature. Have you ever seen >> a book, longer web page, or even article (with multiple sections) that >> tries to close one section and continue any previous sibling or its >> parent? > > one sometimes see "sub-sections" indented from the main flow. at the > end of the sub-section, the indentation reverts to that of the main > flow. in the case of one level, this works fairly well (the case where > the end of the sub-section corresponds to the end of a "physical" page > is one place it works less well). > > also, one *could* consider "boxes" (e.g., in textbooks) something like > this, though they tend to exist outside the main flow. That's better reflected by inlinetasks. Any kind of long text being indented or boxed will not be readable. Nesting is also questionable. -- Ihor Radchenko // yantar92, Org mode contributor, Learn more about Org mode at <https://orgmode.org/>. Support Org development at <https://liberapay.com/org-mode>, or support my work at <https://liberapay.com/yantar92> ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 22+ messages in thread
* Re: Is the cascading logic of outlines a feature, or a design bug? 2022-12-28 9:13 ` Ihor Radchenko @ 2022-12-28 9:34 ` Greg Minshall 0 siblings, 0 replies; 22+ messages in thread From: Greg Minshall @ 2022-12-28 9:34 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Ihor Radchenko; +Cc: emacs-orgmode Ihor, > That's better reflected by inlinetasks. inlinetasks? that's new for me. i see some mention in the manual. but, the comments in source code is more helpful. yes, i see what you mean. for boxes, that would make sense. > Any kind of long text being indented or boxed will not be > readable. for a (possibly context-specific) suitable definition of "long", that seems correct (though, for someone *else's* text, it's a value judgement that i, personally, wouldn't like to make :). > Nesting is also questionable. quite likely. cheers, Greg ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 22+ messages in thread
* Re: Is the cascading logic of outlines a feature, or a design bug? 2022-12-28 7:14 ` Stefan Nobis 2022-12-28 7:21 ` Samuel Wales 2022-12-28 8:45 ` Greg Minshall @ 2022-12-28 9:34 ` tomas 2 siblings, 0 replies; 22+ messages in thread From: tomas @ 2022-12-28 9:34 UTC (permalink / raw) To: emacs-orgmode [-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 767 bytes --] On Wed, Dec 28, 2022 at 08:14:26AM +0100, Stefan Nobis wrote: > abq@bitrot.link writes: > > > Likewise, is the inability to close an org-mode outline section > > without starting a new section really a feature? > > I think so. :) > > First, technically, it makes the sections (and their contents) a tree > instead of a graph [...] No. XML is very much a tree yet has "that other" document model. The difference is whether you allow a node to contain "mixed" (as the XMLians call it) stuff (nodes and text, basically) or you allow certain nodes to only have one text element at the very beginning (Org). Actually, Org is more confusing than that, because inline markup, blocks and all that /are/ allowed to mix with normal text. Cheers -- t [-- Attachment #2: signature.asc --] [-- Type: application/pgp-signature, Size: 195 bytes --] ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 22+ messages in thread
end of thread, other threads:[~2022-12-28 9:35 UTC | newest] Thread overview: 22+ messages (download: mbox.gz / follow: Atom feed) -- links below jump to the message on this page -- 2022-12-26 6:47 Is the cascading logic of outlines a feature, or a design bug? abq 2022-12-26 7:51 ` tomas 2022-12-26 10:12 ` Ihor Radchenko 2022-12-26 17:23 ` abq 2022-12-26 17:32 ` tomas 2022-12-26 17:36 ` Ihor Radchenko 2022-12-26 18:37 ` tomas 2022-12-27 7:21 ` Marcin Borkowski 2022-12-27 9:00 ` tomas 2022-12-28 6:40 ` Marcin Borkowski 2022-12-28 7:28 ` Heinz Tuechler 2022-12-28 9:29 ` tomas 2022-12-26 12:38 ` Max Nikulin 2022-12-26 17:03 ` abq 2022-12-27 16:02 ` Max Nikulin 2022-12-28 1:52 ` Samuel Wales 2022-12-28 7:14 ` Stefan Nobis 2022-12-28 7:21 ` Samuel Wales 2022-12-28 8:45 ` Greg Minshall 2022-12-28 9:13 ` Ihor Radchenko 2022-12-28 9:34 ` Greg Minshall 2022-12-28 9:34 ` tomas
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