From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mp12.migadu.com ([2001:41d0:2:bcc0::]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits)) by ms5.migadu.com with LMTPS id WK+fEkydqmNKggAAbAwnHQ (envelope-from ) for ; Tue, 27 Dec 2022 08:22:52 +0100 Received: from aspmx1.migadu.com ([2001:41d0:2:bcc0::]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits)) by mp12.migadu.com with LMTPS id OBqWEkydqmPrKAEAauVa8A (envelope-from ) for ; Tue, 27 Dec 2022 08:22:52 +0100 Received: from lists.gnu.org (lists.gnu.org [209.51.188.17]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by aspmx1.migadu.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id EB107F7B4 for ; Tue, 27 Dec 2022 08:22:51 +0100 (CET) Received: from localhost ([::1] helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1pA4HP-0005Gz-KH; Tue, 27 Dec 2022 02:21:43 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1pA4HN-00055b-Gh for emacs-orgmode@gnu.org; Tue, 27 Dec 2022 02:21:41 -0500 Received: from mail.mojserwer.eu ([195.110.48.8]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1pA4HL-0007RM-CE for emacs-orgmode@gnu.org; Tue, 27 Dec 2022 02:21:40 -0500 Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mail.mojserwer.eu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7C65B7F74E0; Tue, 27 Dec 2022 08:21:36 +0100 (CET) X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at mail.mojserwer.eu Received: from mail.mojserwer.eu ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (mail.mojserwer.eu [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id m_9meX-7ntuG; Tue, 27 Dec 2022 08:21:31 +0100 (CET) Received: from localhost (178235147137.dynamic-3-poz-k-0-1-0.vectranet.pl [178.235.147.137]) by mail.mojserwer.eu (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 5300F7F74DA; Tue, 27 Dec 2022 08:21:29 +0100 (CET) References: <87cz86qxrc.fsf@localhost> <87ilhyvzi1.fsf@localhost> User-agent: mu4e 1.1.0; emacs 29.0.50 From: Marcin Borkowski To: tomas@tuxteam.de Cc: emacs-orgmode@gnu.org Subject: Re: Is the cascading logic of outlines a feature, or a design bug? In-reply-to: Date: Tue, 27 Dec 2022 08:21:28 +0100 Message-ID: <87cz85s45j.fsf@mbork.pl> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Received-SPF: pass client-ip=195.110.48.8; envelope-from=mbork@mbork.pl; helo=mail.mojserwer.eu X-Spam_score_int: -25 X-Spam_score: -2.6 X-Spam_bar: -- X-Spam_report: (-2.6 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-orgmode@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "General discussions about Org-mode." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org Sender: emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org X-Migadu-Country: US X-Migadu-Flow: FLOW_IN ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yhetil.org; s=key1; t=1672125772; h=from:from:sender:sender:reply-to:subject:subject:date:date: message-id:message-id:to:to:cc:cc:mime-version:mime-version: content-type:content-type:in-reply-to:in-reply-to: references:references:list-id:list-help:list-unsubscribe: list-subscribe:list-post; bh=jzVW/sANVYbuqsYE9JLvFCMKGc2a5cxUklg26J9AQBA=; b=dWkAo6IV4kernvHexipgNDivTs3dEnluO6i6i/uchqZw60AW+hfq8kSrze6P9jRXdktGqp cdicXg6TifFw6RDIoyCIKR73EwNQiUZVcjXAhev+wTGoxgJMBQ23Xey3/Rxldp5DQ9snbw hJ1AS5Crg9nbyYmJDfd47YDXIJ5sq/KiZI7Cb4crByL5DYQeRZr4auY61fCrnrlrSdStab eiaULoqr3Lyv5MuILjGn4tEvk8ZrZUi89Wy+E1bcW2zF2Mw6IDsO5n+6L2UZFw54bahH5f f1LCiCwAMsSk3S7Fc3VICA/6Du4qyVgSW5UXcZMk5UZDxvQgKwNN4io6VxnPLg== ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; aspmx1.migadu.com; dkim=none; spf=pass (aspmx1.migadu.com: domain of "emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" designates 209.51.188.17 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom="emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org"; dmarc=none ARC-Seal: i=1; s=key1; d=yhetil.org; t=1672125772; a=rsa-sha256; cv=none; b=q+slfVdpT5OT1K6YvmTs9hj38LzUIYe6B/LhBklEWXEjJ6SnGup++f3/q6+lnnmRds82PJ UYrkEPP98N8Tq8Cbh3fQpUENDra6gEpyC+PMvbvQposNlDmFmkTNmaGOgZ5JwaXlxVkQKq YKIwj3U8w4gzT10Kc7kOsuhC8MRYQ9lG28JNJTUw1OsgGdUFpdUstdDjL0ZEMz6k2HqDtW sO8rsxhNDebkm6KmXalhra23llO9U/lz+9u9TutW+MUSAqH/DRYEe+xqHNVv9nV/Eoaw+3 O/MxFQNcGWJbCqFw9TSDmiSLwt3ZXIMYGxysvSfOTp8RHSvcodVWxt8Ru7AAEQ== X-Spam-Score: -0.43 X-Migadu-Queue-Id: EB107F7B4 Authentication-Results: aspmx1.migadu.com; dkim=none; spf=pass (aspmx1.migadu.com: domain of "emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" designates 209.51.188.17 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom="emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org"; dmarc=none X-Migadu-Scanner: scn1.migadu.com X-Migadu-Spam-Score: -0.43 X-TUID: 1ndUUc5MJ+Ce On 2022-12-26, at 19:37, tomas@tuxteam.de wrote: > On Mon, Dec 26, 2022 at 05:36:06PM +0000, Ihor Radchenko wrote: >> abq@bitrot.link writes: >> >> > So, that addresses the cost. What was the benefit? >> >> For example, export. Things like LaTeX or Markdown or ODT do not support >> document section continuation. Markdown being a very poor example, since it is basically a format for first drafts (and it's bad even at that). > > Here's the LaTeX perspective, which perhaps illustrates that "print", > our grandmother, didn't necessarily think hierarchically: > > https://tex.stackexchange.com/questions/174651/latex-end-section-or-subsection > > (Spoiler: LaTeX does as print and Org, as Ihor says -- and different > to XML). > > At first it seems surprising that there are those two perspectives > and there's no "right" or "wrong", as the OP seems to assume. FWIW, I think LaTeX also got this "wrong" (and perhaps surprisingly, XML "right";-)). AFAIR, ConTeXt (which I haven't used for several years, so I might be mistaken) does "TRT" here. OTOH, I agree that it looks surprising, and we mathematicians (and CS/IT people) would like to have a nice, tree-like structure, but I suspect that not allowing to continue the parent section after the subsection ends is a wise decision. I highly suspect this would be very confusing for 99% people, which might be precisely the benefit the OP is asking about. Just my 2 cents, -- Marcin Borkowski http://mbork.pl