From: Timothy <tecosaur@gmail.com>
To: Ihor Radchenko <yantar92@gmail.com>
Cc: Karl Voit <devnull@Karl-Voit.at>, Bastien <bzg@gnu.org>,
emacs-orgmode@gnu.org
Subject: Re: Concrete suggestions to improve Org mode third-party integration :: an afterthought following Karl Voit's Orgdown proposal
Date: Mon, 06 Dec 2021 02:54:34 +0800 [thread overview]
Message-ID: <87tufmonch.fsf@gmail.com> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <87tufnbj1w.fsf@localhost>
[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 3758 bytes --]
Hi Ihor,
Thank you for your email. I have little to add to you analysis and suggestions
other than my strong agreement. However, I will give some of my thoughts that
lead me to this position.
Ultimately, we have a choice. Do we wish to be hostile, or welcoming to interest
in Org outside org-mode? Under the “hostile” or “isolationist” option, we might:
⁃ Talk of Org not as a general format, but the /exclusive/ format of org-mode
⁃ Ignore any and all attempts to support .org files outside Emacs
Under the “welcoming” option, we might:
⁃ Treat OrgMode as a “brand name” for the Org file format, with org-mode as the
reference implementation
⁃ Take reasonable steps (such as those Ihor suggests) to make Org seem
relevant/interesting/usable (if inferior) without Emacs
⁃ Encourage efforts to support the format outside Emacs’ org-mode
To me, the choice is clear. I think we loose nothing by choosing by welcoming
interest in Org outside org-mode, but potentially gain much. As Emacs users, we
can think of ourselves as living in a little Emacs bubble (of around 2% of
developers if StackOverflow’s developer survey is to be believed). Like Karl
Voit, I believe Org holds a lot of value as a markup format in and of itself.
The other 98% + some non-developers have good reason in my mind to be curious
about Org. I imagine many of us regularly interact with such people. We see this
interest manifested not only in extensions for various other editors ([neovim],
[atom], [vs code], [sublime], etc.), but also parsers and tools that work with Org
like Hugo, Pandoc, and LogSeq. We do not live in a bubble. We all benefit from
such efforts.
*The more people use Org, in some form, the greater the chance that someone
making a new tool will think to support it.*
Whatever we may make of it, there is clear interest in Org (to some extent)
separately from Emacs. By ignoring that, we only do ourselves and potential
future Org / Emacs org-mode users a disservice.
People are currently making editor extensions and tools for Emacs outside
org-mode. I don’t think this is suddenly going to stop. We might as well help
such efforts. Good tools that work with Org are good for Org / org-mode. By
providing good clear documentation, and a well-defined grammar, we reduce the
risk of different implementations of the syntax and functionality defined by
org-mode. We could even provide some for of “implementation roadmap” (linked to
the syntax specification) to help developers understand what is required to
implement certain functionality (both markup/syntax, and editing features —
more on this idea I’ve had in a future email). Karl Voit’s idea of “levels” of
Org helps make the task less daunting.
Yes, it will take a bit of effort to do this, and in particular to do this well.
I feel it would likely be worth it though. From the efforts we’ve seen so far,
we have nothing to loose and much we could gain.
All the best,
Timothy
p.s. I see some concerns have been raised about freedom and Org outside Emacs.
While the FSF/GNU project are champions of the FOSS movement, there are many
other FOSS projects and FOSS editors. To decry helping non-GNU/FSF
projects/editors because there are non-free projects/editors seems a bit much.
If improving our documentation and being friendlier to non-Emacs users looking
at the project website is anti-freedom/breaks FSF rules, what’s making an Emacs
build for Windows?
[neovim] <https://github.com/nvim-orgmode/orgmode>
[atom] <https://atom.io/packages/org-mode>
[vs code] <https://github.com/vscode-org-mode/vscode-org-mode>
[sublime] <https://packagecontrol.io/packages/OrgExtended>
next prev parent reply other threads:[~2021-12-05 19:38 UTC|newest]
Thread overview: 59+ messages / expand[flat|nested] mbox.gz Atom feed top
2021-12-05 7:35 Concrete suggestions to improve Org mode third-party integration :: an afterthought following Karl Voit's Orgdown proposal Ihor Radchenko
2021-12-05 9:16 ` Juan Manuel Macías
2021-12-05 10:24 ` Ihor Radchenko
2021-12-05 11:08 ` Juan Manuel Macías
2021-12-05 11:54 ` Heinz Tuechler
2021-12-05 12:08 ` Ihor Radchenko
2021-12-05 13:32 ` Tim Cross
2021-12-05 13:52 ` Bruce D'Arcus
2021-12-05 22:20 ` Tim Cross
2021-12-05 14:30 ` Ihor Radchenko
2021-12-05 22:39 ` Tim Cross
2021-12-08 13:47 ` Ihor Radchenko
2021-12-08 14:39 ` Tim Cross
2021-12-08 16:16 ` Dr. Arne Babenhauserheide
2021-12-08 17:07 ` Russell Adams
2021-12-08 19:22 ` Dr. Arne Babenhauserheide
2021-12-08 20:14 ` Russell Adams
2021-12-08 21:50 ` Tim Cross
2021-12-09 8:12 ` Dr. Arne Babenhauserheide
2021-12-08 21:25 ` Tim Cross
2021-12-09 8:07 ` Dr. Arne Babenhauserheide
2021-12-09 8:36 ` Timothy
2021-12-09 9:18 ` Ihor Radchenko
2021-12-09 10:46 ` Eric S Fraga
2021-12-09 15:21 ` Russell Adams
2021-12-09 16:25 ` Eric S Fraga
2021-12-09 21:15 ` Samuel Wales
2021-12-09 23:27 ` Dr. Arne Babenhauserheide
2021-12-10 2:42 ` Tim Cross
2021-12-10 6:08 ` Dr. Arne Babenhauserheide
2021-12-11 10:03 ` Ihor Radchenko
2021-12-11 21:19 ` Tim Cross
2021-12-06 19:41 ` Karl Voit
2021-12-05 18:59 ` Juan Manuel Macías
2021-12-05 23:24 ` Russell Adams
2021-12-06 5:57 ` Juan Manuel Macías
2021-12-06 6:02 ` Timothy
2021-12-06 7:24 ` Juan Manuel Macías
2021-12-06 10:04 ` Greg Minshall
2021-12-06 14:59 ` Juan Manuel Macías
2021-12-06 17:59 ` Tom Gillespie
2021-12-06 18:25 ` M. ‘quintus’ Gülker
2021-12-06 18:42 ` Russell Adams
2021-12-06 18:47 ` Timothy
2021-12-06 19:28 ` Russell Adams
2021-12-06 19:34 ` Timothy
2021-12-06 18:30 ` Russell Adams
2021-12-06 19:10 ` Gerry Agbobada
2021-12-08 12:56 ` Ihor Radchenko
2021-12-06 10:08 ` Greg Minshall
2021-12-06 19:45 ` Karl Voit
2021-12-07 11:08 ` Vincent Breton
2021-12-08 13:13 ` Ihor Radchenko
2021-12-08 13:30 ` Ihor Radchenko
2021-12-05 13:06 ` Tim Cross
2021-12-05 14:55 ` Ihor Radchenko
2021-12-05 18:54 ` Timothy [this message]
2021-12-06 11:08 ` Max Nikulin
2021-12-06 18:43 ` Russell Adams
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