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[61.245.128.160]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id hk18sm10730467pjb.20.2021.12.05.11.36.49 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256/256); Sun, 05 Dec 2021 11:36:50 -0800 (PST) From: Timothy To: Ihor Radchenko Subject: Re: Concrete suggestions to improve Org mode third-party integration :: an afterthought following Karl Voit's Orgdown proposal Date: Mon, 06 Dec 2021 02:54:34 +0800 References: <87tufnbj1w.fsf@localhost> User-agent: mu4e 1.6.9; emacs 28.0.50 In-reply-to: <87tufnbj1w.fsf@localhost> Message-ID: <87tufmonch.fsf@gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="=-=-=" X-Host-Lookup-Failed: Reverse DNS lookup failed for 2607:f8b0:4864:20::534 (failed) Received-SPF: pass client-ip=2607:f8b0:4864:20::534; envelope-from=tecosaur@gmail.com; helo=mail-pg1-x534.google.com X-Spam_score_int: -12 X-Spam_score: -1.3 X-Spam_bar: - X-Spam_report: (-1.3 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, PDS_HP_HELO_NORDNS=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RDNS_NONE=0.793, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=no autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-orgmode@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "General discussions about Org-mode." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Cc: Karl Voit , Bastien , emacs-orgmode@gnu.org Errors-To: emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org Sender: "Emacs-orgmode" X-Migadu-Flow: FLOW_IN X-Migadu-Country: US ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yhetil.org; s=key1; t=1638733118; h=from:from:sender:sender:reply-to:subject:subject:date:date: message-id:message-id:to:to:cc:cc:mime-version:mime-version: content-type:content-type:in-reply-to:in-reply-to: references:references:list-id:list-help:list-unsubscribe: list-subscribe:list-post:dkim-signature; bh=BYNGu2+vGmm/X011lHN1z9upBgcazogufMqDqjCgBuA=; b=EJob5K+ZqUtE0Zd2WDU57mODis0IlJa3TpJCeZvwgn2Ca+B3GrKsEXRKGU/gGg8BadYxJx Mtb3Sia7XHGne0ysu/vTr8IJbjVNXWQ5fxzXkKxaLvd3dxhmZ5szOc3P3MY5Wy0Gp73qdj tNj34Ck0NhfUpuqzKwjBvCqGqkt4NZKk7/Hb4fpzE+0ewHkYHkSJgn/if52pvOHyiOg/w+ fFYMZfTHGX7BY5hk+Z+xDCYg7x8tBGuJ9oYClhqM7uGQyOQWy13MtrjL3oYvviP0v8vKM5 1w8T0FoEn6NGvCmBnxyGaEc5itWMo0qufGG30QTyjYrpJe7+x9iUGcq3O4MbvQ== ARC-Seal: i=1; s=key1; d=yhetil.org; t=1638733118; a=rsa-sha256; cv=none; b=kyz6+2lyCu7M8U/kA/QJbbiEE/wDlXgIPSLGdmPnL6n5uYJvZZvSdvoPLfpJ50vshn0hgd 2rBlsDwxs8qHBfDb+ss8Xt5Uy3/Kl39lYdpoz1a49Fu8q0+CuJSN4TCFFzYF7nH1OCSJMs IUbPYWleywvJnnG3lA7edvr6cKFZX4w2mm4zr5T2JisClbcWq35FEqYJKS9DPwlwmwGivo C6ZCHsaPsZdCd9HEca4ch7qDOo1BBzIm0xI7buoSl+Zo9dAlfdP5QYqLiW5gMWvTYuY5Qt VXlFj7LfJTkibv5SEU4acYV9ROmk+65YKs4nstyCQVWTmgXXSjd1Ix/yCKJhcw== ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; aspmx1.migadu.com; dkim=fail ("headers rsa verify failed") header.d=gmail.com header.s=20210112 header.b=WeUWVIAR; dmarc=fail reason="SPF not aligned (relaxed)" header.from=gmail.com (policy=none); spf=pass (aspmx1.migadu.com: domain of "emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" designates 209.51.188.17 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom="emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" X-Migadu-Spam-Score: -0.84 Authentication-Results: aspmx1.migadu.com; dkim=fail ("headers rsa verify failed") header.d=gmail.com header.s=20210112 header.b=WeUWVIAR; dmarc=fail reason="SPF not aligned (relaxed)" header.from=gmail.com (policy=none); spf=pass (aspmx1.migadu.com: domain of "emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" designates 209.51.188.17 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom="emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" X-Migadu-Queue-Id: 2F6C919DBB X-Spam-Score: -0.84 X-Migadu-Scanner: scn0.migadu.com X-TUID: bC2gvOT5qcj4 --=-=-= Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Ihor, Thank you for your email. I have little to add to you analysis and suggesti= ons other than my strong agreement. However, I will give some of my thoughts th= at lead me to this position. Ultimately, we have a choice. Do we wish to be hostile, or welcoming to int= erest in Org outside org-mode? Under the =E2=80=9Chostile=E2=80=9D or =E2=80=9Cis= olationist=E2=80=9D option, we might: =E2=81=83 Talk of Org not as a general format, but the /exclusive/ format o= f org-mode =E2=81=83 Ignore any and all attempts to support .org files outside Emacs Under the =E2=80=9Cwelcoming=E2=80=9D option, we might: =E2=81=83 Treat OrgMode as a =E2=80=9Cbrand name=E2=80=9D for the Org file = format, with org-mode as the reference implementation =E2=81=83 Take reasonable steps (such as those Ihor suggests) to make Org s= eem relevant/interesting/usable (if inferior) without Emacs =E2=81=83 Encourage efforts to support the format outside Emacs=E2=80=99 or= g-mode To me, the choice is clear. I think we loose nothing by choosing by welcomi= ng interest in Org outside org-mode, but potentially gain much. As Emacs users= , we can think of ourselves as living in a little Emacs bubble (of around 2% of developers if StackOverflow=E2=80=99s developer survey is to be believed). = Like Karl Voit, I believe Org holds a lot of value as a markup format in and of itsel= f. The other 98% + some non-developers have good reason in my mind to be curio= us about Org. I imagine many of us regularly interact with such people. We see= this interest manifested not only in extensions for various other editors ([neov= im], [atom], [vs code], [sublime], etc.), but also parsers and tools that work w= ith Org like Hugo, Pandoc, and LogSeq. We do not live in a bubble. We all benefit f= rom such efforts. *The more people use Org, in some form, the greater the chance that someone making a new tool will think to support it.* Whatever we may make of it, there is clear interest in Org (to some extent) separately from Emacs. By ignoring that, we only do ourselves and potential future Org / Emacs org-mode users a disservice. People are currently making editor extensions and tools for Emacs outside org-mode. I don=E2=80=99t think this is suddenly going to stop. We might as= well help such efforts. Good tools that work with Org are good for Org / org-mode. By providing good clear documentation, and a well-defined grammar, we reduce t= he risk of different implementations of the syntax and functionality defined by org-mode. We could even provide some for of =E2=80=9Cimplementation roadmap= =E2=80=9D (linked to the syntax specification) to help developers understand what is required to implement certain functionality (both markup/syntax, and editing features = =E2=80=94 more on this idea I=E2=80=99ve had in a future email). Karl Voit=E2=80=99s = idea of =E2=80=9Clevels=E2=80=9D of Org helps make the task less daunting. Yes, it will take a bit of effort to do this, and in particular to do this = well. I feel it would likely be worth it though. From the efforts we=E2=80=99ve s= een so far, we have nothing to loose and much we could gain. All the best, Timothy p.s. I see some concerns have been raised about freedom and Org outside Ema= cs. While the FSF/GNU project are champions of the FOSS movement, there are many other FOSS projects and FOSS editors. To decry helping non-GNU/FSF projects/editors because there are non-free projects/editors seems a bit mu= ch. If improving our documentation and being friendlier to non-Emacs users look= ing at the project website is anti-freedom/breaks FSF rules, what=E2=80=99s mak= ing an Emacs build for Windows? [neovim] [atom] [vs code] [sublime] --=-=-=--