From: Ihor Radchenko <yantar92@gmail.com>
To: Tim Cross <theophilusx@gmail.com>
Cc: emacs-orgmode@gnu.org
Subject: Re: Concrete suggestions to improve Org mode third-party integration :: an afterthought following Karl Voit's Orgdown proposal
Date: Wed, 08 Dec 2021 21:47:22 +0800 [thread overview]
Message-ID: <87k0gf5hud.fsf@localhost> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <87a6he4ngu.fsf@gmail.com>
Tim Cross <theophilusx@gmail.com> writes:
> I don't disagree with this objective. My objection is to changing the
> emphasis or priority of org mode as an Emacs mode to a general technical
> specification for a small part of what is org-mode, the markup (I will
> outline the concerns I have in doing this below).
I think I was not clear enough in my topic-starter when I framed it as
"From the narrow perspective of this mailing list". I do not suggest to
change emphasis of the whole Org mode project. Instead, I am trying to
suggest a set of improvements to orgmode.org aiming to lure broader
auditory to _Org mode for Emacs_ and a change to Org test suite that
would allow easier contribution to _Org mode for Emacs_ from third-party
developers
> ... The other point of
> course is that if you make it easier to implement org markdown in other
> editors, you don't have control over whether they are implemented in
> free or non-free solutions.
To be clear, writing Org syntax spec has been decided long time ago.
See https://list.orgmode.org/87r1qt9cf0.fsf@gnu.org/ and
https://orgmode.org/worg/dev/org-syntax.html (started long before that
thread). I just suggested to link it to orgmode.org
>> The fact is that e.g. Github already provides support for Org markup.
>> They do it for their own profit and we cannot stop them. If we have a
>> controlled criteria about quality of third-party Org mode support, there
>> will be means to interfere with non-free software attempting to makes
>> profits out of Org mode. For example, if Github do not integrate our
>> recommended test suite (with all the legal consequences defined in
>> GPLv3), we will be able to have a list of third-party tools and, among
>> free alternatives, mention that Github support for Org is not verified
>> and most likely not consistent with other _free_ tools. We cannot do it
>> now.
>>
>
> There is a fatal flaw in this argument. The GPL licenses code, not the
> underlying idea (which is essentially what patents are about). We can
> define all the quality criteria we like for 3rd party implementations,
> but we cannot enforce them unless they are also using the GPL'd code. As
> this code is elisp, it is extremely unlikely any 3rd party
> implementation will be using it. In short, defining clear specifications
> and minimal quality criteria will only have baring on code added to org
> mode - it would, for example, have no effect on what github has/is
> implementing.
It is indeed unlikely and not using our tests will degrade its quality
if they just use the existing https://orgmode.org/worg/dev/org-syntax.html
So, I only see tests as an improvement.
> Consider this contrived scenario.
As I tried to stress above, I do not suggest to change Org mode project
emphasis. Anyway, some of my replies to your statements below might be
of interest.
> Meanwhile, Emacs development continues and new features/capabilities
> continue to be added. In particular, a new feature is added which is
> extremely powerful and would be a huge benefit for Emacs org-mode users.
> However, there is a problem. In order to take advantage of this new
> feature, significant changes are required for the specification. This
> will result in implementations requiring considerable work in order to
> update them to the new specification.
I disagree. We already need to care about back-compatibility of Org
syntax (think of org documents written years ago). Major changes to
syntax are very unlikely even without considering third-party software.
And, by the way, remember the existing "third party" Elisp packages
(think of Org roam, for example). We do not want to break them.
Best,
Ihor
next prev parent reply other threads:[~2021-12-08 13:47 UTC|newest]
Thread overview: 59+ messages / expand[flat|nested] mbox.gz Atom feed top
2021-12-05 7:35 Concrete suggestions to improve Org mode third-party integration :: an afterthought following Karl Voit's Orgdown proposal Ihor Radchenko
2021-12-05 9:16 ` Juan Manuel Macías
2021-12-05 10:24 ` Ihor Radchenko
2021-12-05 11:08 ` Juan Manuel Macías
2021-12-05 11:54 ` Heinz Tuechler
2021-12-05 12:08 ` Ihor Radchenko
2021-12-05 13:32 ` Tim Cross
2021-12-05 13:52 ` Bruce D'Arcus
2021-12-05 22:20 ` Tim Cross
2021-12-05 14:30 ` Ihor Radchenko
2021-12-05 22:39 ` Tim Cross
2021-12-08 13:47 ` Ihor Radchenko [this message]
2021-12-08 14:39 ` Tim Cross
2021-12-08 16:16 ` Dr. Arne Babenhauserheide
2021-12-08 17:07 ` Russell Adams
2021-12-08 19:22 ` Dr. Arne Babenhauserheide
2021-12-08 20:14 ` Russell Adams
2021-12-08 21:50 ` Tim Cross
2021-12-09 8:12 ` Dr. Arne Babenhauserheide
2021-12-08 21:25 ` Tim Cross
2021-12-09 8:07 ` Dr. Arne Babenhauserheide
2021-12-09 8:36 ` Timothy
2021-12-09 9:18 ` Ihor Radchenko
2021-12-09 10:46 ` Eric S Fraga
2021-12-09 15:21 ` Russell Adams
2021-12-09 16:25 ` Eric S Fraga
2021-12-09 21:15 ` Samuel Wales
2021-12-09 23:27 ` Dr. Arne Babenhauserheide
2021-12-10 2:42 ` Tim Cross
2021-12-10 6:08 ` Dr. Arne Babenhauserheide
2021-12-11 10:03 ` Ihor Radchenko
2021-12-11 21:19 ` Tim Cross
2021-12-06 19:41 ` Karl Voit
2021-12-05 18:59 ` Juan Manuel Macías
2021-12-05 23:24 ` Russell Adams
2021-12-06 5:57 ` Juan Manuel Macías
2021-12-06 6:02 ` Timothy
2021-12-06 7:24 ` Juan Manuel Macías
2021-12-06 10:04 ` Greg Minshall
2021-12-06 14:59 ` Juan Manuel Macías
2021-12-06 17:59 ` Tom Gillespie
2021-12-06 18:25 ` M. ‘quintus’ Gülker
2021-12-06 18:42 ` Russell Adams
2021-12-06 18:47 ` Timothy
2021-12-06 19:28 ` Russell Adams
2021-12-06 19:34 ` Timothy
2021-12-06 18:30 ` Russell Adams
2021-12-06 19:10 ` Gerry Agbobada
2021-12-08 12:56 ` Ihor Radchenko
2021-12-06 10:08 ` Greg Minshall
2021-12-06 19:45 ` Karl Voit
2021-12-07 11:08 ` Vincent Breton
2021-12-08 13:13 ` Ihor Radchenko
2021-12-08 13:30 ` Ihor Radchenko
2021-12-05 13:06 ` Tim Cross
2021-12-05 14:55 ` Ihor Radchenko
2021-12-05 18:54 ` Timothy
2021-12-06 11:08 ` Max Nikulin
2021-12-06 18:43 ` Russell Adams
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