emacs-orgmode@gnu.org archives
 help / color / mirror / code / Atom feed
* I have terminated my assignment
@ 2013-04-02  8:42 Jambunathan K
  2013-04-02 22:16 ` Christian Moe
                   ` (3 more replies)
  0 siblings, 4 replies; 18+ messages in thread
From: Jambunathan K @ 2013-04-02  8:42 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: emacs-orgmode


I have terminated my copyright assignment to Emacs (or atleast notified
the copyright desk).

For the sake of record, I haven't authorized Bastien to move the
ox-html.el and ox-odt.el out of the ./contrib/lisp directory in to the
main ./lisp/ directory.  He didn't seek my permissions to move the file
away from contrib/lisp in to lisp/.

I cannot agree with Orgmode project's contention that I have given
consent for above work to be included in Emacs proper.

If FSF ever consults me on rights to my contributions to the above
files, my position will ambiguously be

    "Changes made by me to files ox-html.el, ox-odt.el and
    ox-freemind.el are my own and I assert my rights over the changes.
    Specifically, I will not acknowledge FSF as having the rights to the
    said changes."

Bastien has lost my trust very long back.  More so when he resorted to
erasing attribution to my work.

----------------------------------------------------------------

My changes to ox-html.el and ox-odt.el is not worth the keyboard it is
typed on.  My changes are useful.  Handing over of rights, liberal
license grant backs from FSF and enforcement of copyright etc. are too
big a thing to even think about for my humble contributions.  The size
of my contributions are simply not worth so much bureaucratic trouble.

----------------------------------------------------------------

Meanwhile, interesting observers can observe how FSF responds.  Either
they can act consistent with project policy (and reject my work) or
appropriate my work (through changing the rules of the game and
interpreting the terms of contract) to suit their agenda.

----------------------------------------------------------------

Advice for potential contributors: 
----------------------------------

Think before signing a Future Assignment.  Why write a blank cheque and
have RMS run behind you with "this is a diff to Emacs and all your code
is mine."

Assign work on a case-by-case basis.  

Insist that you cannot apriori sign off rights to future works (Future
work and circumstances cannot be predicted.  Be circumspect).  If more
people refuse to assign future rights, FSF will be forced to review
their stance.

Ask for information on how you can withhold assignments for some
selected work.  

Ask them for cancellation form or a "withholding" form.

Ask them at what point in time your work is *actually part* of Emacs.

Carefully consider the arguments that FSF advances and also the
arguments advanced by detractors.  Don't be swayed by propaganda.

If you are not sure, just don't sign the copyright and wait till you
have ascertained the nature of your work in it's near final form.

Jambunathan K.

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 18+ messages in thread

* Re: I have terminated my assignment
  2013-04-02  8:42 I have terminated my assignment Jambunathan K
@ 2013-04-02 22:16 ` Christian Moe
  2013-04-02 22:25   ` John Hendy
  2013-04-03  4:15 ` Carsten Dominik
                   ` (2 subsequent siblings)
  3 siblings, 1 reply; 18+ messages in thread
From: Christian Moe @ 2013-04-02 22:16 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Jambunathan K; +Cc: emacs-orgmode


Jambunathan,

If you're leaving the Org-mode community, I'd prefer to remember you
with gratitude for leaving us the excellent ODT exporter. Please stop
diminishing your legacy with this quasi-legal wrangling.

As a user, I have greatly appreciated both your code contributions and
your patient help on the mailing list in the past. I think your recent
way of registering your displeasure with the Org maintainer is beneath
you. Also unhelpful, pointless, damaging to the community, and, in the
worst-case scenario, a damn waste of good work.

Yours,
Christian

Jambunathan K writes:

> I have terminated my copyright assignment to Emacs (or atleast notified
> the copyright desk).
>
> For the sake of record, I haven't authorized Bastien to move the
> ox-html.el and ox-odt.el out of the ./contrib/lisp directory in to the
> main ./lisp/ directory.  He didn't seek my permissions to move the file
> away from contrib/lisp in to lisp/.
>
> I cannot agree with Orgmode project's contention that I have given
> consent for above work to be included in Emacs proper.
>
> If FSF ever consults me on rights to my contributions to the above
> files, my position will ambiguously be
>
>     "Changes made by me to files ox-html.el, ox-odt.el and
>     ox-freemind.el are my own and I assert my rights over the changes.
>     Specifically, I will not acknowledge FSF as having the rights to the
>     said changes."
>
> Bastien has lost my trust very long back.  More so when he resorted to
> erasing attribution to my work.
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------
>
> My changes to ox-html.el and ox-odt.el is not worth the keyboard it is
> typed on.  My changes are useful.  Handing over of rights, liberal
> license grant backs from FSF and enforcement of copyright etc. are too
> big a thing to even think about for my humble contributions.  The size
> of my contributions are simply not worth so much bureaucratic trouble.
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Meanwhile, interesting observers can observe how FSF responds.  Either
> they can act consistent with project policy (and reject my work) or
> appropriate my work (through changing the rules of the game and
> interpreting the terms of contract) to suit their agenda.
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Advice for potential contributors: 
> ----------------------------------
>
> Think before signing a Future Assignment.  Why write a blank cheque and
> have RMS run behind you with "this is a diff to Emacs and all your code
> is mine."
>
> Assign work on a case-by-case basis.  
>
> Insist that you cannot apriori sign off rights to future works (Future
> work and circumstances cannot be predicted.  Be circumspect).  If more
> people refuse to assign future rights, FSF will be forced to review
> their stance.
>
> Ask for information on how you can withhold assignments for some
> selected work.  
>
> Ask them for cancellation form or a "withholding" form.
>
> Ask them at what point in time your work is *actually part* of Emacs.
>
> Carefully consider the arguments that FSF advances and also the
> arguments advanced by detractors.  Don't be swayed by propaganda.
>
> If you are not sure, just don't sign the copyright and wait till you
> have ascertained the nature of your work in it's near final form.
>
> Jambunathan K.

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 18+ messages in thread

* Re: I have terminated my assignment
  2013-04-02 22:16 ` Christian Moe
@ 2013-04-02 22:25   ` John Hendy
  2013-04-03  5:38     ` Andreas Röhler
  2013-04-03 14:49     ` Christian Moe
  0 siblings, 2 replies; 18+ messages in thread
From: John Hendy @ 2013-04-02 22:25 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Christian Moe; +Cc: emacs-orgmode, Jambunathan K

On Tue, Apr 2, 2013 at 5:16 PM, Christian Moe <mail@christianmoe.com> wrote:
>
> Jambunathan,
>
> If you're leaving the Org-mode community, I'd prefer to remember you
> with gratitude for leaving us the excellent ODT exporter. Please stop
> diminishing your legacy with this quasi-legal wrangling.
>
> As a user, I have greatly appreciated both your code contributions and
> your patient help on the mailing list in the past. I think your recent
> way of registering your displeasure with the Org maintainer is beneath
> you. Also unhelpful, pointless, damaging to the community, and, in the
> worst-case scenario, a damn waste of good work.
>
> Yours,
> Christian
>
> Jambunathan K writes:
>
>> I have terminated my copyright assignment to Emacs (or atleast notified
>> the copyright desk).

With respect to Org staying up to date on these developments, it
probably *is* a good idea to know how Emacs/FSF responds. Should the
rights be granted back to Jambunathan, Org should behave accordingly.

As it currently reads however, it made me think of something along the
lines of, "I have terminated my marriage to my wife (or at least left
a message with her secretary to let her know)." The two are hardly the
same. Until this is formalized, papers signed and rights granted
(regardless of 20/20 hindsight and warnings to other potential
signers) still stand as binding.


John

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 18+ messages in thread

* Re: I have terminated my assignment
  2013-04-02  8:42 I have terminated my assignment Jambunathan K
  2013-04-02 22:16 ` Christian Moe
@ 2013-04-03  4:15 ` Carsten Dominik
  2013-04-03  5:52   ` Jambunathan K
  2013-04-03  6:10 ` Bastien
  2013-04-03 17:32 ` Eli Zaretskii
  3 siblings, 1 reply; 18+ messages in thread
From: Carsten Dominik @ 2013-04-03  4:15 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Jambunathan K; +Cc: emacs-orgmode

Hi,

For the record created by this mailing list thread, I would like to correct two mistakes:

On 2.4.2013, at 10:42, Jambunathan K <kjambunathan@gmail.com> wrote:

> 
> I have terminated my copyright assignment to Emacs (or atleast notified
> the copyright desk).
> 
> For the sake of record, I haven't authorized Bastien to move the
> ox-html.el and ox-odt.el out of the ./contrib/lisp directory in to the
> main ./lisp/ directory.  He didn't seek my permissions to move the file
> away from contrib/lisp in to lisp/.
> 
> I cannot agree with Orgmode project's contention that I have given
> consent for above work to be included in Emacs proper.

When this code first entered the Org-mode repository, it was not in contrib/.  The code entered in EXPERIMENTAL/.  Both files where marked "Copyright (C) 2011-2012 FSF" and "Copyright (C) 2010-2012 FSF" from the first moment they entered into the repository, in agreement with Jambunathan's standing assignment with the FSF at the time.

http://orgmode.org/cgit.cgi/org-mode.git/commit/EXPERIMENTAL/org-e-html.el?id=93ec2c7a5034944f5f6c77be6f37c49b4a697b72

http://orgmode.org/cgit.cgi/org-mode.git/commit/EXPERIMENTAL/org-e-odt.el?id=c2ea76e71034a161d875647b27cfbd72264b5d64

The files moved to contrib/ only in April of 2012, in a period when the exporter structure was fleshed out and completed.  This move was clearly a staging event for a later move into core, rather than a change of copyright assignment.  While unassigned files are are only allowed in contrib/, the reverse is not true and never was.

> If FSF ever consults me on rights to my contributions to the above
> files, my position will ambiguously be
> 
>    "Changes made by me to files ox-html.el, ox-odt.el and
>    ox-freemind.el are my own and I assert my rights over the changes.
>    Specifically, I will not acknowledge FSF as having the rights to the
>    said changes."
> 
> Bastien has lost my trust very long back.  More so when he resorted to
> erasing attribution to my work.

As far as I can see, the attribution is still in the manual and in all relevant files.  What was removed seems to be a special acknowledgement of outstanding support for the maintainer.

- Carsten

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 18+ messages in thread

* Re: I have terminated my assignment
  2013-04-02 22:25   ` John Hendy
@ 2013-04-03  5:38     ` Andreas Röhler
  2013-04-03 14:49     ` Christian Moe
  1 sibling, 0 replies; 18+ messages in thread
From: Andreas Röhler @ 2013-04-03  5:38 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: emacs-orgmode

Am 03.04.2013 00:25, schrieb John Hendy:
> On Tue, Apr 2, 2013 at 5:16 PM, Christian Moe <mail@christianmoe.com> wrote:
>>
>> Jambunathan,
>>
>> If you're leaving the Org-mode community, I'd prefer to remember you
>> with gratitude for leaving us the excellent ODT exporter. Please stop
>> diminishing your legacy with this quasi-legal wrangling.
>>
>> As a user, I have greatly appreciated both your code contributions and
>> your patient help on the mailing list in the past. I think your recent
>> way of registering your displeasure with the Org maintainer is beneath
>> you. Also unhelpful, pointless, damaging to the community, and, in the
>> worst-case scenario, a damn waste of good work.
>>
>> Yours,
>> Christian
>>
>> Jambunathan K writes:
>>
>>> I have terminated my copyright assignment to Emacs (or atleast notified
>>> the copyright desk).
>
> With respect to Org staying up to date on these developments, it
> probably *is* a good idea to know how Emacs/FSF responds. Should the
> rights be granted back to Jambunathan, Org should behave accordingly.
>

Hi John,

as for the GPLed code, no one may revert it's GPLed status once published. That's great with GPL, made it a success story.
Can't see anything to grant back so far from Org's side.

Best,

Andreas

> As it currently reads however, it made me think of something along the
> lines of, "I have terminated my marriage to my wife (or at least left
> a message with her secretary to let her know)." The two are hardly the
> same. Until this is formalized, papers signed and rights granted
> (regardless of 20/20 hindsight and warnings to other potential
> signers) still stand as binding.
>
>
> John
>
>

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 18+ messages in thread

* Re: I have terminated my assignment
  2013-04-03  4:15 ` Carsten Dominik
@ 2013-04-03  5:52   ` Jambunathan K
  2013-04-03  8:07     ` Carsten Dominik
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 18+ messages in thread
From: Jambunathan K @ 2013-04-03  5:52 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Carsten Dominik; +Cc: emacs-orgmode


Carsten

> When this code first entered the Org-mode repository, it was not in
> contrib/.  The code entered in EXPERIMENTAL/.  Both files where marked
> "Copyright (C) 2011-2012 FSF" and "Copyright (C) 2010-2012 FSF" from
> the first moment they entered into the repository, in agreement with
> Jambunathan's standing assignment with the FSF at the time.
>
> http://orgmode.org/cgit.cgi/org-mode.git/commit/EXPERIMENTAL/org-e-html.el?id=93ec2c7a5034944f5f6c77be6f37c49b4a697b72
>
> http://orgmode.org/cgit.cgi/org-mode.git/commit/EXPERIMENTAL/org-e-odt.el?id=c2ea76e71034a161d875647b27cfbd72264b5d64
>
> The files moved to contrib/ only in April of 2012, in a period when
> the exporter structure was fleshed out and completed.  This move was
> clearly a staging event for a later move into core, rather than a
> change of copyright assignment.  While unassigned files are are only
> allowed in contrib/, the reverse is not true and never was.

What does FSF record indicate?  

Last I checked, it indicates that Emacs contains no such files and these
files are unknown to the Emacs product.  FSF email records also say that
I have out of my own initiative refused to assign *my* rights to them.

----------------------------------------------------------------

I haven't authorized Bastien to move contrib/lisp changes to lisp/.  I
invite him to show a proof to that effect. 

----------------------------------------------------------------

What you indicate is daily routine.  IMNSHO, they are good to know but
not substantial to resolve the dispute.  

It is common knowledge that unreleased source is *known* to show wrong
Copyright years prior to release.  Corporations securely back up - as in
put in a locker - only released tar balls.

----------------------------------------------------------------

What matters is the product (product here is Emacs) and a public release
of product together with source tarball.

Org-8.0 is not released yet.  It is a work-in-progress and not known to
public at large.  Org-8.0 is not in Emacs, it is merely a staging ground
for Emacs and Emacs maintainers will do their own due diligence
*independent* of the due diligence done by Org maintainer.

----------------------------------------------------------------

Thought experiment: 
    I steal my employer's code, slap my authorship and assign copyright to
    FSF.  Does that mean the code is assigned to FSF? No.

----------------------------------------------------------------

Bottomline: 
    Intent to act is not the same as act itself.

Jambunathan K.

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 18+ messages in thread

* Re: I have terminated my assignment
  2013-04-02  8:42 I have terminated my assignment Jambunathan K
  2013-04-02 22:16 ` Christian Moe
  2013-04-03  4:15 ` Carsten Dominik
@ 2013-04-03  6:10 ` Bastien
  2013-04-03  7:50   ` Jambunathan K
  2013-04-03 17:32 ` Eli Zaretskii
  3 siblings, 1 reply; 18+ messages in thread
From: Bastien @ 2013-04-03  6:10 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Jambunathan K; +Cc: emacs-orgmode

Jambunathan K <kjambunathan@gmail.com> writes:

> For the sake of record, I haven't authorized Bastien to move the
> ox-html.el and ox-odt.el out of the ./contrib/lisp directory in to the
> main ./lisp/ directory.  He didn't seek my permissions to move the file
> away from contrib/lisp in to lisp/.

1. Nicolas announced the merge of new exporters on Feb, 2nd
   http://article.gmane.org/gmane.emacs.orgmode/65574

   As a contributor to org-e-html.el and org-e-odt.el, you
   perfectly knew the merge will end up in putting ox-html.el
   and ox-odt.el in lisp/.

   If you didn't want the files to go into core, you should
   have said it at this time.

   We never received a word from you suggesting that you may
   refuse to merge your changes into Org's core.

2. You were well aware of the merge since you participated in
   the discussions that followed:

   http://article.gmane.org/gmane.emacs.orgmode/65728
   http://article.gmane.org/gmane.emacs.orgmode/65872

So -- Nicolas and I had absolutely no reason to believe that
you would oppose to merging your changes into lisp/.

You also stated that the main reason for your current behavior
is to delay Org 8.0, to create chaos and to annoy me.

I don't think your strategy is very well-thought, because all
your moves may only annoy Emacs developers, not me.  I'm fine
with releasing ox-html.el and ox-odt.el in Org 8.0.

-- 
 Bastien

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 18+ messages in thread

* Re: I have terminated my assignment
  2013-04-03  6:10 ` Bastien
@ 2013-04-03  7:50   ` Jambunathan K
  2013-04-03 13:22     ` Eric Schulte
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 18+ messages in thread
From: Jambunathan K @ 2013-04-03  7:50 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Bastien; +Cc: emacs-orgmode


> You also stated that the main reason for your current behavior
> is to delay Org 8.0, to create chaos and to annoy me.

Yes.

> I'm fine with releasing ox-html.el and ox-odt.el in Org 8.0.

By releasing Org-8.0 your "responsibilities" will only increase, not
decrease.  You will be obliged to purge my changes and make sure that
the replacement is ready and available for merge with Emacs.

Someone - it may not be you yourself - from within the community would
have paid the price for annoying me.  I will try hard to extract a
price.

ps: I dare you to re-write those changes.  Show me the code Luke.

Jambunathan K.

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 18+ messages in thread

* Re: I have terminated my assignment
  2013-04-03  5:52   ` Jambunathan K
@ 2013-04-03  8:07     ` Carsten Dominik
  2013-04-03  8:37       ` Jambunathan K
  2013-04-03  9:14       ` Jambunathan K
  0 siblings, 2 replies; 18+ messages in thread
From: Carsten Dominik @ 2013-04-03  8:07 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Jambunathan K; +Cc: emacs-orgmode

Jambunathan,

I am not entering a discussion here, based on some wildly
constructed examples.  What I am doing is countering the
impression you are lately trying to make, that these files
were never intended for release and Emacs.  You are trying
to imply this by insisting that they were "in contrib".
This is a false impression for two reasons, as I have shown
in my previous mail.

The copyright quotation is not about the year, but about
the fact that it says "FSF", not "Jambunathan".  This was
never changed, also not when you changed the author name
from "Nicolas Goaziou" (because the files was apparently
created by changing a copy org-e-latex.el) to your name.

http://orgmode.org/cgit.cgi/org-mode.git/commit/EXPERIMENTAL/org-e-html.el?id=fac58412f3c23a4c3cb03e050cd7809cfc8651fe

Org-mode is not a company.  It is an open source project,
and the complete project history is open to the world.
It's most important distribution channel is as git
repository - so it is published and republished after
each push to the main repository at orgmode.org. 
Introducing cuts like a tar ball release is artificial
for this discussion.  At each state it may contain bugs
and typos, but fact that the copyright notice was never
changed shows at the very least that you did not care,
and probably it shows that you, at the time, were
proud to contribute to the Org-mode and Emacs and
perfectly aware that the copyright was transferred to
the FSF.

It is known that your intent has now changed, but the
original intent was plain to you and others and has caused
others to rely on the code, to add and invest.  This is why
I am helping to protect the code.  Not to pry it away from
you[1], but to protect users of and contributors to Org-mode.
If we cannot trust that code contributed to a project like
Org-mode can be used and built upon, then the letter and
spirit of free software is endangered.  Even if you try
to paint yourself into the victim role, you are quite the
opposite in this situation.

- Carsten

[1] What would I have to gain from that?  I would have more
    fun rewriting it than I have writing this mail, but I do
    what I consider necessary.


On 3.4.2013, at 07:52, Jambunathan K <kjambunathan@gmail.com> wrote:

> 
> Carsten
> 
>> When this code first entered the Org-mode repository, it was not in
>> contrib/.  The code entered in EXPERIMENTAL/.  Both files where marked
>> "Copyright (C) 2011-2012 FSF" and "Copyright (C) 2010-2012 FSF" from
>> the first moment they entered into the repository, in agreement with
>> Jambunathan's standing assignment with the FSF at the time.
>> 
>> http://orgmode.org/cgit.cgi/org-mode.git/commit/EXPERIMENTAL/org-e-html.el?id=93ec2c7a5034944f5f6c77be6f37c49b4a697b72
>> 
>> http://orgmode.org/cgit.cgi/org-mode.git/commit/EXPERIMENTAL/org-e-odt.el?id=c2ea76e71034a161d875647b27cfbd72264b5d64
>> 
>> The files moved to contrib/ only in April of 2012, in a period when
>> the exporter structure was fleshed out and completed.  This move was
>> clearly a staging event for a later move into core, rather than a
>> change of copyright assignment.  While unassigned files are are only
>> allowed in contrib/, the reverse is not true and never was.
> 
> What does FSF record indicate?  
> 
> Last I checked, it indicates that Emacs contains no such files and these
> files are unknown to the Emacs product.  FSF email records also say that
> I have out of my own initiative refused to assign *my* rights to them.
> 
> ----------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> I haven't authorized Bastien to move contrib/lisp changes to lisp/.  I
> invite him to show a proof to that effect. 
> 
> ----------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> What you indicate is daily routine.  IMNSHO, they are good to know but
> not substantial to resolve the dispute.  
> 
> It is common knowledge that unreleased source is *known* to show wrong
> Copyright years prior to release.  Corporations securely back up - as in
> put in a locker - only released tar balls.
> 
> ----------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> What matters is the product (product here is Emacs) and a public release
> of product together with source tarball.
> 
> Org-8.0 is not released yet.  It is a work-in-progress and not known to
> public at large.  Org-8.0 is not in Emacs, it is merely a staging ground
> for Emacs and Emacs maintainers will do their own due diligence
> *independent* of the due diligence done by Org maintainer.
> 
> ----------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> Thought experiment: 
>   I steal my employer's code, slap my authorship and assign copyright to
>   FSF.  Does that mean the code is assigned to FSF? No.
> 
> ----------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> Bottomline: 
>   Intent to act is not the same as act itself.
> 
> Jambunathan K.

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 18+ messages in thread

* Re: I have terminated my assignment
  2013-04-03  8:07     ` Carsten Dominik
@ 2013-04-03  8:37       ` Jambunathan K
  2013-04-03  9:14       ` Jambunathan K
  1 sibling, 0 replies; 18+ messages in thread
From: Jambunathan K @ 2013-04-03  8:37 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Carsten Dominik; +Cc: emacs-orgmode


> It is known that your intent has now changed,

Correct.

> but the original intent was plain to you and others

Yes.

> and has caused others to rely on the code, to add and invest.

Code is GPL.

Nicolas Goaziou has already grown in respect by committing a fix to the
ODT exporter in a manner that makes Christian Moe happy.  I am happy.

I will not mention how much Bastien invested in a fix for the problem
and how his fix fared when it was put to test.  This pattern of Bastien
playing to the gallery is not merely anecdotal but has repeated more or
less regularly for the last 3 years or so.

The truth of the matter is Bastien has been unwilling to spend
substantial time maintaing Orgmode since he took over.  I am unwilling
to trust my work in the hands of someone whose sole purpose is to please
the crowd but runs of shy of taking hard considered decisions or
actually supporting the ongoing work.  To my eyes, his maintainership is
ceremonial.  The unwanted side-effect is that he is having an influence
that is incommensurate with the responsibility he is shouldering.

> This is why I am helping to protect the code.  Not to pry it away from
> you[1], but to protect users of and contributors to Org-mode.  If we
> cannot trust that code contributed to a project like Org-mode can be
> used and built upon, then the letter and spirit of free software is
> endangered.  Even if you try to paint yourself into the victim role,
> you are quite the opposite in this situation.

Fair enough.

> [1] What would I have to gain from that?  I would have more
>     fun rewriting it than I have writing this mail, but I do
>     what I consider necessary.

Actions speak louder than words.  That's where Nicolas Goaziou has
scored very consistently.

Bottomline: I will co-operate but not under current maintainer who has
never acted in a way to win my trust.  I am speaking of a 3 year horizon
here.

Jambunathan K.

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 18+ messages in thread

* Re: I have terminated my assignment
  2013-04-03  8:07     ` Carsten Dominik
  2013-04-03  8:37       ` Jambunathan K
@ 2013-04-03  9:14       ` Jambunathan K
  1 sibling, 0 replies; 18+ messages in thread
From: Jambunathan K @ 2013-04-03  9:14 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Carsten Dominik; +Cc: emacs-orgmode

Carsten Dominik <carsten.dominik@gmail.com> writes:

> Org-mode is not a company.

I am not taking about Orgmode per-se.  I am talking about Orgmode in so
as far as it is part of Emacs, the copy rights to which are owned and
enforced by FSF. 

Much of my argument relate to policies of Emacs.

FSF *is* an organization.  If one assigns right to FSF, then one can
turn to FSF for doing all the grunt work of enforcing compliance in case
of license violation.

If one is not assigning right to FSF, then one is left to his own means.

See http://www.gnu.org/licenses/why-assign.html

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 18+ messages in thread

* Re: I have terminated my assignment
  2013-04-03  7:50   ` Jambunathan K
@ 2013-04-03 13:22     ` Eric Schulte
  2013-04-04 10:11       ` Vikas Rawal
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 18+ messages in thread
From: Eric Schulte @ 2013-04-03 13:22 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Jambunathan K; +Cc: Bastien, emacs-orgmode

Jambunathan K <kjambunathan@gmail.com> writes:

>> You also stated that the main reason for your current behavior
>> is to delay Org 8.0, to create chaos and to annoy me.
>
> Yes.
>

I would suggest that further emails from Jambunathan be ignored.  The
more effort expended "reasoning" with him, the more time wasted by
members of the Org-mode community who are valuable contributors.

Also, despite his bellicose threats, the *only* means he has to hurt the
Org-mode community is the tool he is using now; namely trolling our
mailing list.  Lets take this from him.

Cheers,

PS. For gnus users, the following may help.

        ;; Info link on using kill files to ignore certain posts
        (info "(gnus)Kill Files")

    To use a kill file, from the Org-mode mailing list summary buffer
    press M-k, and then insert the following (or something like it) into
    the resulting buffer, save it and close it.

        (gnus-kill "From" "Jambunathan K")

    If Jambunathan replies to this message, please don't let me know,
    I'll be blissfully unaware.

-- 
Eric Schulte
http://cs.unm.edu/~eschulte

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 18+ messages in thread

* Re: I have terminated my assignment
  2013-04-02 22:25   ` John Hendy
  2013-04-03  5:38     ` Andreas Röhler
@ 2013-04-03 14:49     ` Christian Moe
  1 sibling, 0 replies; 18+ messages in thread
From: Christian Moe @ 2013-04-03 14:49 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: John Hendy; +Cc: emacs-orgmode, Jambunathan K


John Hendy writes:
> With respect to Org staying up to date on these developments, it
> probably *is* a good idea to know how Emacs/FSF responds. Should the
> rights be granted back to Jambunathan, Org should behave accordingly.

Exceedingly unlikely, I think. There is no legal case, the FSF takes a
dim view of copyright trolling against free software, and the trolling
behavior surely squanders any moral claim. What remains is the creation
of fear, uncertainty and doubt (FUD). My worst-case scenario would be
that we give in to that.

OK, that's more than my ten cents' worth already, so I'll take Eric
Schulte's advice on this thread and leave it.

Yours,
Christian

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 18+ messages in thread

* Re: I have terminated my assignment
  2013-04-02  8:42 I have terminated my assignment Jambunathan K
                   ` (2 preceding siblings ...)
  2013-04-03  6:10 ` Bastien
@ 2013-04-03 17:32 ` Eli Zaretskii
  2013-04-03 17:51   ` Jambunathan K
  3 siblings, 1 reply; 18+ messages in thread
From: Eli Zaretskii @ 2013-04-03 17:32 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Jambunathan K; +Cc: emacs-orgmode

> From: Jambunathan K <kjambunathan@gmail.com>
> Date: Tue, 02 Apr 2013 14:12:36 +0530
> 
> I have terminated my copyright assignment to Emacs (or atleast notified
> the copyright desk).

I'm not sure we should believe this statement.  As of a few minutes
ago, your assignment for Emacs still appears on file in FSF records;
until it is removed, nothing's changed.  If you want your
"termination" to have any real effect, you better ask the FSF
personnel to modify the records to that effect ASAP.

Judging by Jambunathan's tone and attitude, I'd advise Org maintainers
to be very careful, and consider also a possibility that Jambunathan
is simply lying about this, and that his entire goal is just to make
himself famous by harassing Org and Emacs, without taking any real
action (a.k.a. "trolling").

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 18+ messages in thread

* Re: I have terminated my assignment
  2013-04-03 17:32 ` Eli Zaretskii
@ 2013-04-03 17:51   ` Jambunathan K
  2013-04-03 18:14     ` Eli Zaretskii
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 18+ messages in thread
From: Jambunathan K @ 2013-04-03 17:51 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Eli Zaretskii; +Cc: emacs-orgmode

Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> writes:

>> From: Jambunathan K <kjambunathan@gmail.com>
>> Date: Tue, 02 Apr 2013 14:12:36 +0530
>> 
>> I have terminated my copyright assignment to Emacs (or atleast notified
>> the copyright desk).
>
> I'm not sure we should believe this statement.  As of a few minutes
> ago, your assignment for Emacs still appears on file in FSF records;
> until it is removed, nothing's changed.  If you want your
> "termination" to have any real effect, you better ask the FSF
> personnel to modify the records to that effect ASAP.

I have notified assign@gnu.org.  Stefan Monnier and Bastien Guerry are
in the CC list of my communication.

> Judging by Jambunathan's tone and attitude, I'd advise Org maintainers
> to be very careful, and consider also a possibility that Jambunathan
> is simply lying about this, and that his entire goal is just to make
> himself famous by harassing Org and Emacs, without taking any real
> action (a.k.a. "trolling").

I don't lie.  I have taken action already.

Jambunathan K.

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 18+ messages in thread

* Re: I have terminated my assignment
  2013-04-03 17:51   ` Jambunathan K
@ 2013-04-03 18:14     ` Eli Zaretskii
  0 siblings, 0 replies; 18+ messages in thread
From: Eli Zaretskii @ 2013-04-03 18:14 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Jambunathan K; +Cc: emacs-orgmode

> From: Jambunathan K <kjambunathan@gmail.com>
> Cc: emacs-orgmode@gnu.org
> Date: Wed, 03 Apr 2013 23:21:22 +0530
> 
> Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> writes:
> 
> >> From: Jambunathan K <kjambunathan@gmail.com>
> >> Date: Tue, 02 Apr 2013 14:12:36 +0530
> >> 
> >> I have terminated my copyright assignment to Emacs (or atleast notified
> >> the copyright desk).
> >
> > I'm not sure we should believe this statement.  As of a few minutes
> > ago, your assignment for Emacs still appears on file in FSF records;
> > until it is removed, nothing's changed.  If you want your
> > "termination" to have any real effect, you better ask the FSF
> > personnel to modify the records to that effect ASAP.
> 
> I have notified assign@gnu.org.  Stefan Monnier and Bastien Guerry are
> in the CC list of my communication.

No one else knows, until the records are updated.  (And it's not
difficult to forge email headers if one wants to.  I'm not saying you
did that, I'm just saying that one mail is not proof of anything.)

> > Judging by Jambunathan's tone and attitude, I'd advise Org maintainers
> > to be very careful, and consider also a possibility that Jambunathan
> > is simply lying about this, and that his entire goal is just to make
> > himself famous by harassing Org and Emacs, without taking any real
> > action (a.k.a. "trolling").
> 
> I don't lie.

Your writings tell a different story, unfortunately.

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 18+ messages in thread

* Re: I have terminated my assignment
  2013-04-03 13:22     ` Eric Schulte
@ 2013-04-04 10:11       ` Vikas Rawal
  2013-04-05 15:58         ` Christopher Allan Webber
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 18+ messages in thread
From: Vikas Rawal @ 2013-04-04 10:11 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: emacs-orgmode

> >> You also stated that the main reason for your current behavior
> >> is to delay Org 8.0, to create chaos and to annoy me.
> >
> > Yes.
> >
> 
> I would suggest that further emails from Jambunathan be ignored.  The
> more effort expended "reasoning" with him, the more time wasted by
> members of the Org-mode community who are valuable contributors.

+1

Vikas

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 18+ messages in thread

* Re: I have terminated my assignment
  2013-04-04 10:11       ` Vikas Rawal
@ 2013-04-05 15:58         ` Christopher Allan Webber
  0 siblings, 0 replies; 18+ messages in thread
From: Christopher Allan Webber @ 2013-04-05 15:58 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Vikas Rawal; +Cc: emacs-orgmode

Vikas Rawal writes:

>> >> You also stated that the main reason for your current behavior
>> >> is to delay Org 8.0, to create chaos and to annoy me.
>> >
>> > Yes.
>> >
>> 
>> I would suggest that further emails from Jambunathan be ignored.  The
>> more effort expended "reasoning" with him, the more time wasted by
>> members of the Org-mode community who are valuable contributors.
>
> +1
>
> Vikas

Could someone please just ban Jambunathan from the list?
These emails are not productive and are wasting everyone's time.

If Jambunathan wants to discuss policy stuff with the FSF, he can do
that; there's no reason to do it here on-list.  However, what
Jambunathan has said very explicitly is: I want to troll this list and
waste everyone's time.  And he said it very explicitly here:

Jambunathan K writes:
> Someone - it may not be you yourself - from within the community would
> have paid the price for annoying me.  I will try hard to extract a
> price.

Please stop letting him waste our time and community energy.  There's no
reason to keep the troll well fed by allowing him to continue these
emails on-list.

Thanks,
 - Christopher Allan Webber.

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 18+ messages in thread

end of thread, other threads:[~2013-04-05 15:58 UTC | newest]

Thread overview: 18+ messages (download: mbox.gz / follow: Atom feed)
-- links below jump to the message on this page --
2013-04-02  8:42 I have terminated my assignment Jambunathan K
2013-04-02 22:16 ` Christian Moe
2013-04-02 22:25   ` John Hendy
2013-04-03  5:38     ` Andreas Röhler
2013-04-03 14:49     ` Christian Moe
2013-04-03  4:15 ` Carsten Dominik
2013-04-03  5:52   ` Jambunathan K
2013-04-03  8:07     ` Carsten Dominik
2013-04-03  8:37       ` Jambunathan K
2013-04-03  9:14       ` Jambunathan K
2013-04-03  6:10 ` Bastien
2013-04-03  7:50   ` Jambunathan K
2013-04-03 13:22     ` Eric Schulte
2013-04-04 10:11       ` Vikas Rawal
2013-04-05 15:58         ` Christopher Allan Webber
2013-04-03 17:32 ` Eli Zaretskii
2013-04-03 17:51   ` Jambunathan K
2013-04-03 18:14     ` Eli Zaretskii

Code repositories for project(s) associated with this inbox:

	https://git.savannah.gnu.org/cgit/emacs/org-mode.git

This is a public inbox, see mirroring instructions
for how to clone and mirror all data and code used for this inbox;
as well as URLs for read-only IMAP folder(s) and NNTP newsgroup(s).