* A shorter manual
@ 2010-04-28 15:46 Carsten Dominik
2010-04-28 15:57 ` Erik Iverson
` (3 more replies)
0 siblings, 4 replies; 21+ messages in thread
From: Carsten Dominik @ 2010-04-28 15:46 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: emacs org-mode mailing list
Dear all,
with the Org-mode manual moving toward 200 pages, I am
starting to worry that people with stop in their tracks
when considering Org-mode, just because of the sheer size
of the manual.
So I did a little experiment. I took the manual and stripped
everything which could be considered advanced material, but
keeping all features and all basic commands and customizations.
What remains are about 50 pages. A document with the same
structure (even the same chapter numbers) as the manual.
I am wondering if it would be useful to have this as a beginners
document - or if the existence of this document would lead
to more confusion than relief.
http://orgmode.org/orgguide.pdf
I don't see this a an alternative for the manual - just
as an additional, rather static document, with little need for
updates. The manual would continue to be the comprehensive
and constantly updated document.
Comments are welcome.
- Carsten
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 21+ messages in thread* Re: A shorter manual 2010-04-28 15:46 A shorter manual Carsten Dominik @ 2010-04-28 15:57 ` Erik Iverson 2010-04-28 17:05 ` Dan Davison 2010-04-28 17:06 ` Dan Davison 2010-04-28 16:00 ` Marco ` (2 subsequent siblings) 3 siblings, 2 replies; 21+ messages in thread From: Erik Iverson @ 2010-04-28 15:57 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Carsten Dominik; +Cc: emacs org-mode mailing list Carsten Dominik wrote: > Dear all, > > with the Org-mode manual moving toward 200 pages, I am > starting to worry that people with stop in their tracks > when considering Org-mode, just because of the sheer size > of the manual. > > So I did a little experiment. I took the manual and stripped > everything which could be considered advanced material, but > keeping all features and all basic commands and customizations. > > What remains are about 50 pages. A document with the same > structure (even the same chapter numbers) as the manual. > I am wondering if it would be useful to have this as a beginners > document - or if the existence of this document would lead > to more confusion than relief. > > http://orgmode.org/orgguide.pdf > > I don't see this a an alternative for the manual - just > as an additional, rather static document, with little need for > updates. The manual would continue to be the comprehensive > and constantly updated document. > > Comments are welcome. I think it's a great idea. The R project has something called "An Introduction to R" for beginners, separate from the complete manual. I think that as a beginner, and wondering how to break into learning a new package, that "reading the manual" has certain negative psychological connotations that "reading the intro document" does not, not the least of which is the length of full manual. And since knowing just the basics of org can be immensely beneficial, I think it's even more reason to have a basic intro document. --Erik ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 21+ messages in thread
* Re: A shorter manual 2010-04-28 15:57 ` Erik Iverson @ 2010-04-28 17:05 ` Dan Davison 2010-04-28 18:43 ` Matti De Craene 2010-04-28 17:06 ` Dan Davison 1 sibling, 1 reply; 21+ messages in thread From: Dan Davison @ 2010-04-28 17:05 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Erik Iverson; +Cc: emacs org-mode mailing list, Carsten Dominik Erik Iverson <eriki@ccbr.umn.edu> writes: > Carsten Dominik wrote: >> Dear all, >> >> with the Org-mode manual moving toward 200 pages, I am >> starting to worry that people with stop in their tracks >> when considering Org-mode, just because of the sheer size >> of the manual. >> >> So I did a little experiment. I took the manual and stripped >> everything which could be considered advanced material, but >> keeping all features and all basic commands and customizations. >> >> What remains are about 50 pages. A document with the same >> structure (even the same chapter numbers) as the manual. >> I am wondering if it would be useful to have this as a beginners >> document - or if the existence of this document would lead >> to more confusion than relief. >> >> http://orgmode.org/orgguide.pdf >> >> I don't see this a an alternative for the manual - just >> as an additional, rather static document, with little need for >> updates. The manual would continue to be the comprehensive >> and constantly updated document. >> >> Comments are welcome. Hi Carsten, I think this would be a good thing to have. It would be good to have active HTML links to the relevant main manual sections in PDF and HTML versions. (even if this is not encouraged by texinfo format). I'm tempted to suggest going even a little further than you have done. If you were to make it shorter, I would suggest removing the following sections, and to replace removed sections with very short non-technical advertisements for features that are covered in the main manual. - 2.8 Drawers - 3.2 Column width and alignment - 3.3 The Spreadsheet (4 rather technical pages) - 7.4 Property Inheritance and 7.5 Column View (do beginners really need properties at all ??) Dan > > I think it's a great idea. The R project has something called "An > Introduction to R" for beginners, separate from the complete manual. > I think that as a beginner, and wondering how to break into learning a > new package, that "reading the manual" has certain negative > psychological connotations that "reading the intro document" does not, > not the least of which is the length of full manual. > > And since knowing just the basics of org can be immensely beneficial, > I think it's even more reason to have a basic intro document. > > --Erik > > > _______________________________________________ > Emacs-orgmode mailing list > Please use `Reply All' to send replies to the list. > Emacs-orgmode@gnu.org > http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/emacs-orgmode ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 21+ messages in thread
* Re: A shorter manual 2010-04-28 17:05 ` Dan Davison @ 2010-04-28 18:43 ` Matti De Craene 2010-04-28 21:52 ` Carsten Dominik 2010-04-30 14:12 ` Carsten Dominik 0 siblings, 2 replies; 21+ messages in thread From: Matti De Craene @ 2010-04-28 18:43 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Dan Davison; +Cc: emacs org-mode mailing list, Carsten Dominik > - 2.8 Drawers > - 3.2 Column width and alignment > - 3.3 The Spreadsheet (4 rather technical pages) > - 7.4 Property Inheritance and 7.5 Column View > (do beginners really need properties at all ??) I would agree on this list (except maybe drawers). If there is room for additional sections maybe: - include the org ref card as an appendix (which in itself offers a very good overview of org) - include some pointers into getting emacs for different OSes and getting started with emacs. If there would be an O´Reilly book on Org-mode this would be in the first chapter or so. For people who started using emacs because of org (like me) the current Introduction might still be too cryptic (?) -- Matti On Wed, Apr 28, 2010 at 7:05 PM, Dan Davison <davison@stats.ox.ac.uk> wrote: > Erik Iverson <eriki@ccbr.umn.edu> writes: > >> Carsten Dominik wrote: >>> Dear all, >>> >>> with the Org-mode manual moving toward 200 pages, I am >>> starting to worry that people with stop in their tracks >>> when considering Org-mode, just because of the sheer size >>> of the manual. >>> >>> So I did a little experiment. I took the manual and stripped >>> everything which could be considered advanced material, but >>> keeping all features and all basic commands and customizations. >>> >>> What remains are about 50 pages. A document with the same >>> structure (even the same chapter numbers) as the manual. >>> I am wondering if it would be useful to have this as a beginners >>> document - or if the existence of this document would lead >>> to more confusion than relief. >>> >>> http://orgmode.org/orgguide.pdf >>> >>> I don't see this a an alternative for the manual - just >>> as an additional, rather static document, with little need for >>> updates. The manual would continue to be the comprehensive >>> and constantly updated document. >>> >>> Comments are welcome. > > Hi Carsten, > > I think this would be a good thing to have. > > It would be good to have active HTML links to the relevant main manual > sections in PDF and HTML versions. (even if this is not encouraged by > texinfo format). > > I'm tempted to suggest going even a little further than you have done. > If you were to make it shorter, I would suggest removing the following > sections, and to replace removed sections with very short non-technical > advertisements for features that are covered in the main manual. > > - 2.8 Drawers > - 3.2 Column width and alignment > - 3.3 The Spreadsheet (4 rather technical pages) > - 7.4 Property Inheritance and 7.5 Column View > (do beginners really need properties at all ??) > > Dan > >> >> I think it's a great idea. The R project has something called "An >> Introduction to R" for beginners, separate from the complete manual. >> I think that as a beginner, and wondering how to break into learning a >> new package, that "reading the manual" has certain negative >> psychological connotations that "reading the intro document" does not, >> not the least of which is the length of full manual. >> >> And since knowing just the basics of org can be immensely beneficial, >> I think it's even more reason to have a basic intro document. >> >> --Erik >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Emacs-orgmode mailing list >> Please use `Reply All' to send replies to the list. >> Emacs-orgmode@gnu.org >> http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/emacs-orgmode > > > _______________________________________________ > Emacs-orgmode mailing list > Please use `Reply All' to send replies to the list. > Emacs-orgmode@gnu.org > http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/emacs-orgmode > ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 21+ messages in thread
* Re: A shorter manual 2010-04-28 18:43 ` Matti De Craene @ 2010-04-28 21:52 ` Carsten Dominik 2010-04-29 17:23 ` Dan Davison 2010-04-30 14:12 ` Carsten Dominik 1 sibling, 1 reply; 21+ messages in thread From: Carsten Dominik @ 2010-04-28 21:52 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Matti De Craene; +Cc: Dan Davison, emacs org-mode mailing list On Apr 28, 2010, at 8:43 PM, Matti De Craene wrote: >> - 2.8 Drawers >> - 3.2 Column width and alignment >> - 3.3 The Spreadsheet (4 rather technical pages) >> - 7.4 Property Inheritance and 7.5 Column View >> (do beginners really need properties at all ??) > > > I would agree on this list (except maybe drawers). > > If there is room for additional sections maybe: > - include the org ref card as an appendix (which in itself offers a > very good overview of org) > - include some pointers into getting emacs for different OSes and > getting started with emacs. If there would be an O´Reilly book on > Org-mode this would be in the first chapter or so. For people who > started using emacs because of org (like me) the current Introduction > might still be too cryptic (?) Hi Dan, Matti, I think I agree, just cannot easliy let go of the spreadsheet as a core feature - you caught me there :-), and you are right, also I would be very glad to hand over the control over this document to either of you or to another volunteer. Maybe then we could make something really nice out of this experiment - I will not be able to spend much more time on it.... - Carsten > > > -- > > Matti > > > > > On Wed, Apr 28, 2010 at 7:05 PM, Dan Davison > <davison@stats.ox.ac.uk> wrote: >> Erik Iverson <eriki@ccbr.umn.edu> writes: >> >>> Carsten Dominik wrote: >>>> Dear all, >>>> >>>> with the Org-mode manual moving toward 200 pages, I am >>>> starting to worry that people with stop in their tracks >>>> when considering Org-mode, just because of the sheer size >>>> of the manual. >>>> >>>> So I did a little experiment. I took the manual and stripped >>>> everything which could be considered advanced material, but >>>> keeping all features and all basic commands and customizations. >>>> >>>> What remains are about 50 pages. A document with the same >>>> structure (even the same chapter numbers) as the manual. >>>> I am wondering if it would be useful to have this as a beginners >>>> document - or if the existence of this document would lead >>>> to more confusion than relief. >>>> >>>> http://orgmode.org/orgguide.pdf >>>> >>>> I don't see this a an alternative for the manual - just >>>> as an additional, rather static document, with little need for >>>> updates. The manual would continue to be the comprehensive >>>> and constantly updated document. >>>> >>>> Comments are welcome. >> >> Hi Carsten, >> >> I think this would be a good thing to have. >> >> It would be good to have active HTML links to the relevant main >> manual >> sections in PDF and HTML versions. (even if this is not encouraged by >> texinfo format). >> >> I'm tempted to suggest going even a little further than you have >> done. >> If you were to make it shorter, I would suggest removing the >> following >> sections, and to replace removed sections with very short non- >> technical >> advertisements for features that are covered in the main manual. >> >> - 2.8 Drawers >> - 3.2 Column width and alignment >> - 3.3 The Spreadsheet (4 rather technical pages) >> - 7.4 Property Inheritance and 7.5 Column View >> (do beginners really need properties at all ??) >> >> Dan >> >>> >>> I think it's a great idea. The R project has something called "An >>> Introduction to R" for beginners, separate from the complete manual. >>> I think that as a beginner, and wondering how to break into >>> learning a >>> new package, that "reading the manual" has certain negative >>> psychological connotations that "reading the intro document" does >>> not, >>> not the least of which is the length of full manual. >>> >>> And since knowing just the basics of org can be immensely >>> beneficial, >>> I think it's even more reason to have a basic intro document. >>> >>> --Erik >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Emacs-orgmode mailing list >>> Please use `Reply All' to send replies to the list. >>> Emacs-orgmode@gnu.org >>> http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/emacs-orgmode >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Emacs-orgmode mailing list >> Please use `Reply All' to send replies to the list. >> Emacs-orgmode@gnu.org >> http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/emacs-orgmode >> - Carsten ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 21+ messages in thread
* Re: A shorter manual 2010-04-28 21:52 ` Carsten Dominik @ 2010-04-29 17:23 ` Dan Davison 2010-04-29 21:27 ` Carsten Dominik 0 siblings, 1 reply; 21+ messages in thread From: Dan Davison @ 2010-04-29 17:23 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Carsten Dominik; +Cc: emacs org-mode mailing list, Matti De Craene Carsten Dominik <carsten.dominik@gmail.com> writes: > On Apr 28, 2010, at 8:43 PM, Matti De Craene wrote: > >>> - 2.8 Drawers >>> - 3.2 Column width and alignment >>> - 3.3 The Spreadsheet (4 rather technical pages) >>> - 7.4 Property Inheritance and 7.5 Column View >>> (do beginners really need properties at all ??) >> >> >> I would agree on this list (except maybe drawers). >> >> If there is room for additional sections maybe: >> - include the org ref card as an appendix (which in itself offers a >> very good overview of org) >> - include some pointers into getting emacs for different OSes and >> getting started with emacs. If there would be an O´Reilly book on >> Org-mode this would be in the first chapter or so. For people who >> started using emacs because of org (like me) the current Introduction >> might still be too cryptic (?) > > Hi Dan, Matti, > > I think I agree, just cannot easliy let go of the spreadsheet > as a core feature - you caught me there :-), and you are right, also > > I would be very glad to hand over the control over this document > to either of you or to another volunteer. Hi Carsten, I'm afraid I don't want to take responsibility for this (a predictable position). Apart from anything else there are several areas of Org that I don't know enough about. If there isn't a volunteer, perhaps we could place this document on Worg, and someone could periodically review the changes and judge whether they should be applied to the master copy on the Org website? We could request on this list volunteers for someone to make specific entries (e.g. adding a "Further reading" section for a specific chapter). Dan > Maybe then we could > make something really nice out of this experiment - I will not > be able to spend much more time on it.... > > - Carsten > >> >> >> -- >> >> Matti >> >> >> >> >> On Wed, Apr 28, 2010 at 7:05 PM, Dan Davison >> <davison@stats.ox.ac.uk> wrote: >>> Erik Iverson <eriki@ccbr.umn.edu> writes: >>> >>>> Carsten Dominik wrote: >>>>> Dear all, >>>>> >>>>> with the Org-mode manual moving toward 200 pages, I am >>>>> starting to worry that people with stop in their tracks >>>>> when considering Org-mode, just because of the sheer size >>>>> of the manual. >>>>> >>>>> So I did a little experiment. I took the manual and stripped >>>>> everything which could be considered advanced material, but >>>>> keeping all features and all basic commands and customizations. >>>>> >>>>> What remains are about 50 pages. A document with the same >>>>> structure (even the same chapter numbers) as the manual. >>>>> I am wondering if it would be useful to have this as a beginners >>>>> document - or if the existence of this document would lead >>>>> to more confusion than relief. >>>>> >>>>> http://orgmode.org/orgguide.pdf >>>>> >>>>> I don't see this a an alternative for the manual - just >>>>> as an additional, rather static document, with little need for >>>>> updates. The manual would continue to be the comprehensive >>>>> and constantly updated document. >>>>> >>>>> Comments are welcome. >>> >>> Hi Carsten, >>> >>> I think this would be a good thing to have. >>> >>> It would be good to have active HTML links to the relevant main >>> manual >>> sections in PDF and HTML versions. (even if this is not encouraged by >>> texinfo format). >>> >>> I'm tempted to suggest going even a little further than you have >>> done. >>> If you were to make it shorter, I would suggest removing the >>> following >>> sections, and to replace removed sections with very short non- >>> technical >>> advertisements for features that are covered in the main manual. >>> >>> - 2.8 Drawers >>> - 3.2 Column width and alignment >>> - 3.3 The Spreadsheet (4 rather technical pages) >>> - 7.4 Property Inheritance and 7.5 Column View >>> (do beginners really need properties at all ??) >>> >>> Dan >>> >>>> >>>> I think it's a great idea. The R project has something called "An >>>> Introduction to R" for beginners, separate from the complete manual. >>>> I think that as a beginner, and wondering how to break into >>>> learning a >>>> new package, that "reading the manual" has certain negative >>>> psychological connotations that "reading the intro document" does >>>> not, >>>> not the least of which is the length of full manual. >>>> >>>> And since knowing just the basics of org can be immensely >>>> beneficial, >>>> I think it's even more reason to have a basic intro document. >>>> >>>> --Erik >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Emacs-orgmode mailing list >>>> Please use `Reply All' to send replies to the list. >>>> Emacs-orgmode@gnu.org >>>> http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/emacs-orgmode >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Emacs-orgmode mailing list >>> Please use `Reply All' to send replies to the list. >>> Emacs-orgmode@gnu.org >>> http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/emacs-orgmode >>> > > - Carsten > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Emacs-orgmode mailing list > Please use `Reply All' to send replies to the list. > Emacs-orgmode@gnu.org > http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/emacs-orgmode ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 21+ messages in thread
* Re: A shorter manual 2010-04-29 17:23 ` Dan Davison @ 2010-04-29 21:27 ` Carsten Dominik 2010-04-29 22:14 ` Dan Davison 0 siblings, 1 reply; 21+ messages in thread From: Carsten Dominik @ 2010-04-29 21:27 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Dan Davison; +Cc: emacs org-mode mailing list, Matti De Craene On Apr 29, 2010, at 7:23 PM, Dan Davison wrote: > Carsten Dominik <carsten.dominik@gmail.com> writes: > >> On Apr 28, 2010, at 8:43 PM, Matti De Craene wrote: >> >>>> - 2.8 Drawers >>>> - 3.2 Column width and alignment >>>> - 3.3 The Spreadsheet (4 rather technical pages) >>>> - 7.4 Property Inheritance and 7.5 Column View >>>> (do beginners really need properties at all ??) >>> >>> >>> I would agree on this list (except maybe drawers). >>> >>> If there is room for additional sections maybe: >>> - include the org ref card as an appendix (which in itself offers a >>> very good overview of org) >>> - include some pointers into getting emacs for different OSes and >>> getting started with emacs. If there would be an O´Reilly book on >>> Org-mode this would be in the first chapter or so. For people who >>> started using emacs because of org (like me) the current >>> Introduction >>> might still be too cryptic (?) >> >> Hi Dan, Matti, >> >> I think I agree, just cannot easliy let go of the spreadsheet >> as a core feature - you caught me there :-), and you are right, also >> >> I would be very glad to hand over the control over this document >> to either of you or to another volunteer. > > Hi Carsten, > > I'm afraid I don't want to take responsibility for this (a predictable > position). Sure, I understand. > Apart from anything else there are several areas of Org > that I don't know enough about. If there isn't a volunteer, perhaps we > could place this document on Worg, and someone could periodically > review > the changes and judge whether they should be applied to the master > copy > on the Org website? We could request on this list volunteers for > someone > to make specific entries (e.g. adding a "Further reading" section > for a > specific chapter). Hmmm, I am not sure how efficient this would be. I have it now down to 40 pages, with live links to the manual and to tutorials at the end of each chapter... http://orgmode.org/orgguide.pdf I guess I am done here - a volunteer con still take this up... - Carsten > > Dan > > >> Maybe then we could >> make something really nice out of this experiment - I will not >> be able to spend much more time on it.... >> >> - Carsten >> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> >>> Matti >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On Wed, Apr 28, 2010 at 7:05 PM, Dan Davison >>> <davison@stats.ox.ac.uk> wrote: >>>> Erik Iverson <eriki@ccbr.umn.edu> writes: >>>> >>>>> Carsten Dominik wrote: >>>>>> Dear all, >>>>>> >>>>>> with the Org-mode manual moving toward 200 pages, I am >>>>>> starting to worry that people with stop in their tracks >>>>>> when considering Org-mode, just because of the sheer size >>>>>> of the manual. >>>>>> >>>>>> So I did a little experiment. I took the manual and stripped >>>>>> everything which could be considered advanced material, but >>>>>> keeping all features and all basic commands and customizations. >>>>>> >>>>>> What remains are about 50 pages. A document with the same >>>>>> structure (even the same chapter numbers) as the manual. >>>>>> I am wondering if it would be useful to have this as a beginners >>>>>> document - or if the existence of this document would lead >>>>>> to more confusion than relief. >>>>>> >>>>>> http://orgmode.org/orgguide.pdf >>>>>> >>>>>> I don't see this a an alternative for the manual - just >>>>>> as an additional, rather static document, with little need for >>>>>> updates. The manual would continue to be the comprehensive >>>>>> and constantly updated document. >>>>>> >>>>>> Comments are welcome. >>>> >>>> Hi Carsten, >>>> >>>> I think this would be a good thing to have. >>>> >>>> It would be good to have active HTML links to the relevant main >>>> manual >>>> sections in PDF and HTML versions. (even if this is not >>>> encouraged by >>>> texinfo format). >>>> >>>> I'm tempted to suggest going even a little further than you have >>>> done. >>>> If you were to make it shorter, I would suggest removing the >>>> following >>>> sections, and to replace removed sections with very short non- >>>> technical >>>> advertisements for features that are covered in the main manual. >>>> >>>> - 2.8 Drawers >>>> - 3.2 Column width and alignment >>>> - 3.3 The Spreadsheet (4 rather technical pages) >>>> - 7.4 Property Inheritance and 7.5 Column View >>>> (do beginners really need properties at all ??) >>>> >>>> Dan >>>> >>>>> >>>>> I think it's a great idea. The R project has something called "An >>>>> Introduction to R" for beginners, separate from the complete >>>>> manual. >>>>> I think that as a beginner, and wondering how to break into >>>>> learning a >>>>> new package, that "reading the manual" has certain negative >>>>> psychological connotations that "reading the intro document" does >>>>> not, >>>>> not the least of which is the length of full manual. >>>>> >>>>> And since knowing just the basics of org can be immensely >>>>> beneficial, >>>>> I think it's even more reason to have a basic intro document. >>>>> >>>>> --Erik >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> Emacs-orgmode mailing list >>>>> Please use `Reply All' to send replies to the list. >>>>> Emacs-orgmode@gnu.org >>>>> http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/emacs-orgmode >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Emacs-orgmode mailing list >>>> Please use `Reply All' to send replies to the list. >>>> Emacs-orgmode@gnu.org >>>> http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/emacs-orgmode >>>> >> >> - Carsten >> >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Emacs-orgmode mailing list >> Please use `Reply All' to send replies to the list. >> Emacs-orgmode@gnu.org >> http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/emacs-orgmode - Carsten ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 21+ messages in thread
* Re: A shorter manual 2010-04-29 21:27 ` Carsten Dominik @ 2010-04-29 22:14 ` Dan Davison 2010-04-29 22:36 ` Samuel Wales 0 siblings, 1 reply; 21+ messages in thread From: Dan Davison @ 2010-04-29 22:14 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Carsten Dominik; +Cc: Matti De Craene, emacs org-mode mailing list Carsten Dominik <carsten.dominik@gmail.com> writes: > On Apr 29, 2010, at 7:23 PM, Dan Davison wrote: > >> Carsten Dominik <carsten.dominik@gmail.com> writes: >> >>> On Apr 28, 2010, at 8:43 PM, Matti De Craene wrote: >>> >>>>> - 2.8 Drawers >>>>> - 3.2 Column width and alignment >>>>> - 3.3 The Spreadsheet (4 rather technical pages) >>>>> - 7.4 Property Inheritance and 7.5 Column View >>>>> (do beginners really need properties at all ??) >>>> >>>> >>>> I would agree on this list (except maybe drawers). >>>> >>>> If there is room for additional sections maybe: >>>> - include the org ref card as an appendix (which in itself offers a >>>> very good overview of org) >>>> - include some pointers into getting emacs for different OSes and >>>> getting started with emacs. If there would be an O´Reilly book on >>>> Org-mode this would be in the first chapter or so. For people who >>>> started using emacs because of org (like me) the current >>>> Introduction >>>> might still be too cryptic (?) >>> >>> Hi Dan, Matti, >>> >>> I think I agree, just cannot easliy let go of the spreadsheet >>> as a core feature - you caught me there :-), and you are right, also >>> >>> I would be very glad to hand over the control over this document >>> to either of you or to another volunteer. >> >> Hi Carsten, >> >> I'm afraid I don't want to take responsibility for this (a predictable >> position). > > Sure, I understand. > >> Apart from anything else there are several areas of Org >> that I don't know enough about. If there isn't a volunteer, perhaps we >> could place this document on Worg, and someone could periodically >> review >> the changes and judge whether they should be applied to the master >> copy >> on the Org website? We could request on this list volunteers for >> someone >> to make specific entries (e.g. adding a "Further reading" section >> for a >> specific chapter). > > Hmmm, I am not sure how efficient this would be. > > I have it now down to 40 pages, with live links to the manual and to > tutorials at the end of each chapter... > > http://orgmode.org/orgguide.pdf That looks great. Having the links to Worg and other tutorials is really nice. I noticed a couple of typos in the live links: - p.29 in John Wiegely's name - p.36 "persentation" and to split hairs - p.33 "from the manual" -> "of the manual" for consistency Dan > > I guess I am done here - a volunteer con still take this up... > > - Carsten > >> >> Dan >> >> >>> Maybe then we could >>> make something really nice out of this experiment - I will not >>> be able to spend much more time on it.... >>> >>> - Carsten >>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> >>>> Matti >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Wed, Apr 28, 2010 at 7:05 PM, Dan Davison >>>> <davison@stats.ox.ac.uk> wrote: >>>>> Erik Iverson <eriki@ccbr.umn.edu> writes: >>>>> >>>>>> Carsten Dominik wrote: >>>>>>> Dear all, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> with the Org-mode manual moving toward 200 pages, I am >>>>>>> starting to worry that people with stop in their tracks >>>>>>> when considering Org-mode, just because of the sheer size >>>>>>> of the manual. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> So I did a little experiment. I took the manual and stripped >>>>>>> everything which could be considered advanced material, but >>>>>>> keeping all features and all basic commands and customizations. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> What remains are about 50 pages. A document with the same >>>>>>> structure (even the same chapter numbers) as the manual. >>>>>>> I am wondering if it would be useful to have this as a beginners >>>>>>> document - or if the existence of this document would lead >>>>>>> to more confusion than relief. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> http://orgmode.org/orgguide.pdf >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I don't see this a an alternative for the manual - just >>>>>>> as an additional, rather static document, with little need for >>>>>>> updates. The manual would continue to be the comprehensive >>>>>>> and constantly updated document. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Comments are welcome. >>>>> >>>>> Hi Carsten, >>>>> >>>>> I think this would be a good thing to have. >>>>> >>>>> It would be good to have active HTML links to the relevant main >>>>> manual >>>>> sections in PDF and HTML versions. (even if this is not >>>>> encouraged by >>>>> texinfo format). >>>>> >>>>> I'm tempted to suggest going even a little further than you have >>>>> done. >>>>> If you were to make it shorter, I would suggest removing the >>>>> following >>>>> sections, and to replace removed sections with very short non- >>>>> technical >>>>> advertisements for features that are covered in the main manual. >>>>> >>>>> - 2.8 Drawers >>>>> - 3.2 Column width and alignment >>>>> - 3.3 The Spreadsheet (4 rather technical pages) >>>>> - 7.4 Property Inheritance and 7.5 Column View >>>>> (do beginners really need properties at all ??) >>>>> >>>>> Dan >>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> I think it's a great idea. The R project has something called "An >>>>>> Introduction to R" for beginners, separate from the complete >>>>>> manual. >>>>>> I think that as a beginner, and wondering how to break into >>>>>> learning a >>>>>> new package, that "reading the manual" has certain negative >>>>>> psychological connotations that "reading the intro document" does >>>>>> not, >>>>>> not the least of which is the length of full manual. >>>>>> >>>>>> And since knowing just the basics of org can be immensely >>>>>> beneficial, >>>>>> I think it's even more reason to have a basic intro document. >>>>>> >>>>>> --Erik >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> Emacs-orgmode mailing list >>>>>> Please use `Reply All' to send replies to the list. >>>>>> Emacs-orgmode@gnu.org >>>>>> http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/emacs-orgmode >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> Emacs-orgmode mailing list >>>>> Please use `Reply All' to send replies to the list. >>>>> Emacs-orgmode@gnu.org >>>>> http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/emacs-orgmode >>>>> >>> >>> - Carsten >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Emacs-orgmode mailing list >>> Please use `Reply All' to send replies to the list. >>> Emacs-orgmode@gnu.org >>> http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/emacs-orgmode > > - Carsten > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Emacs-orgmode mailing list > Please use `Reply All' to send replies to the list. > Emacs-orgmode@gnu.org > http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/emacs-orgmode ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 21+ messages in thread
* Re: A shorter manual 2010-04-29 22:14 ` Dan Davison @ 2010-04-29 22:36 ` Samuel Wales 2010-04-30 6:47 ` Carsten Dominik 2010-05-01 6:41 ` Carsten Dominik 0 siblings, 2 replies; 21+ messages in thread From: Samuel Wales @ 2010-04-29 22:36 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Dan Davison; +Cc: emacs org-mode mailing list, Matti De Craene, Carsten Dominik Is there an HTML version? -- Q: How many CDC "scientists" does it take to change a lightbulb? A: "You only think it's dark." [CDC has denied a deadly disease for 25 years] ========== Retrovirus: http://www.wpinstitute.org/xmrv/index.html ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 21+ messages in thread
* Re: A shorter manual 2010-04-29 22:36 ` Samuel Wales @ 2010-04-30 6:47 ` Carsten Dominik 2010-05-01 6:41 ` Carsten Dominik 1 sibling, 0 replies; 21+ messages in thread From: Carsten Dominik @ 2010-04-30 6:47 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Samuel Wales; +Cc: Dan Davison, emacs org-mode mailing list, Matti De Craene On Apr 30, 2010, at 12:36 AM, Samuel Wales wrote: > Is there an HTML version? No yet, but there will be. - Carsten ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 21+ messages in thread
* Re: A shorter manual 2010-04-29 22:36 ` Samuel Wales 2010-04-30 6:47 ` Carsten Dominik @ 2010-05-01 6:41 ` Carsten Dominik 1 sibling, 0 replies; 21+ messages in thread From: Carsten Dominik @ 2010-05-01 6:41 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Samuel Wales; +Cc: Dan Davison, emacs org-mode mailing list, Matti De Craene On Apr 30, 2010, at 12:36 AM, Samuel Wales wrote: > Is there an HTML version? http://orgmode.org/guide - Carsten ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 21+ messages in thread
* Re: A shorter manual 2010-04-28 18:43 ` Matti De Craene 2010-04-28 21:52 ` Carsten Dominik @ 2010-04-30 14:12 ` Carsten Dominik 2010-05-02 10:13 ` Matti De Craene 1 sibling, 1 reply; 21+ messages in thread From: Carsten Dominik @ 2010-04-30 14:12 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Matti De Craene; +Cc: Dan Davison, emacs org-mode mailing list On Apr 28, 2010, at 8:43 PM, Matti De Craene wrote: >> - 2.8 Drawers >> - 3.2 Column width and alignment >> - 3.3 The Spreadsheet (4 rather technical pages) >> - 7.4 Property Inheritance and 7.5 Column View >> (do beginners really need properties at all ??) > > > I would agree on this list (except maybe drawers). > > If there is room for additional sections maybe: > - include the org ref card as an appendix (which in itself offers a > very good overview of org) > - include some pointers into getting emacs for different OSes and > getting started with emacs. If there would be an O´Reilly book on > Org-mode this would be in the first chapter or so. For people who > started using emacs because of org (like me) the current Introduction > might still be too cryptic (?) Would you like to write that introduction? - Carsten ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 21+ messages in thread
* Re: A shorter manual 2010-04-30 14:12 ` Carsten Dominik @ 2010-05-02 10:13 ` Matti De Craene 0 siblings, 0 replies; 21+ messages in thread From: Matti De Craene @ 2010-05-02 10:13 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Carsten Dominik; +Cc: Dan Davison, emacs org-mode mailing list > Would you like to write that introduction? Sure, I'll put something together, either for the compact manual or for worg. Will not be for this week though. Kregs, Matti On Fri, Apr 30, 2010 at 4:12 PM, Carsten Dominik <carsten.dominik@gmail.com> wrote: > > On Apr 28, 2010, at 8:43 PM, Matti De Craene wrote: > >>> - 2.8 Drawers >>> - 3.2 Column width and alignment >>> - 3.3 The Spreadsheet (4 rather technical pages) >>> - 7.4 Property Inheritance and 7.5 Column View >>> (do beginners really need properties at all ??) >> >> >> I would agree on this list (except maybe drawers). >> >> If there is room for additional sections maybe: >> - include the org ref card as an appendix (which in itself offers a >> very good overview of org) >> - include some pointers into getting emacs for different OSes and >> getting started with emacs. If there would be an O´Reilly book on >> Org-mode this would be in the first chapter or so. For people who >> started using emacs because of org (like me) the current Introduction >> might still be too cryptic (?) > > Would you like to write that introduction? > > - Carsten > ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 21+ messages in thread
* Re: A shorter manual 2010-04-28 15:57 ` Erik Iverson 2010-04-28 17:05 ` Dan Davison @ 2010-04-28 17:06 ` Dan Davison 1 sibling, 0 replies; 21+ messages in thread From: Dan Davison @ 2010-04-28 17:06 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Erik Iverson; +Cc: emacs org-mode mailing list, Carsten Dominik Erik Iverson <eriki@ccbr.umn.edu> writes: > Carsten Dominik wrote: >> Dear all, >> >> with the Org-mode manual moving toward 200 pages, I am >> starting to worry that people with stop in their tracks >> when considering Org-mode, just because of the sheer size >> of the manual. >> >> So I did a little experiment. I took the manual and stripped >> everything which could be considered advanced material, but >> keeping all features and all basic commands and customizations. >> >> What remains are about 50 pages. A document with the same >> structure (even the same chapter numbers) as the manual. >> I am wondering if it would be useful to have this as a beginners >> document - or if the existence of this document would lead >> to more confusion than relief. >> >> http://orgmode.org/orgguide.pdf >> >> I don't see this a an alternative for the manual - just >> as an additional, rather static document, with little need for >> updates. The manual would continue to be the comprehensive >> and constantly updated document. >> >> Comments are welcome. Hi Carsten, I think this would be a good thing to have. It would be good to have active HTML links to the relevant main manual sections in PDF and HTML versions. (even if this is not encouraged by texinfo format). I'm tempted to suggest going even a little further than you have done. If you were to make it shorter, I would suggest removing the following sections, and to replace removed sections with very short non-technical advertisements for features that are covered in the main manual. - 2.8 Drawers - 3.2 Column width and alignment - 3.3 The Spreadsheet (4 rather technical pages) - 7.4 Property Inheritance and 7.5 Column View (do beginners really need properties at all ??) Dan > > I think it's a great idea. The R project has something called "An > Introduction to R" for beginners, separate from the complete manual. > I think that as a beginner, and wondering how to break into learning a > new package, that "reading the manual" has certain negative > psychological connotations that "reading the intro document" does not, > not the least of which is the length of full manual. > > And since knowing just the basics of org can be immensely beneficial, > I think it's even more reason to have a basic intro document. > > --Erik > > > _______________________________________________ > Emacs-orgmode mailing list > Please use `Reply All' to send replies to the list. > Emacs-orgmode@gnu.org > http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/emacs-orgmode ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 21+ messages in thread
* Re: A shorter manual 2010-04-28 15:46 A shorter manual Carsten Dominik 2010-04-28 15:57 ` Erik Iverson @ 2010-04-28 16:00 ` Marco 2010-04-28 16:45 ` Thomas S. Dye 2010-04-28 17:24 ` Samuel Wales 3 siblings, 0 replies; 21+ messages in thread From: Marco @ 2010-04-28 16:00 UTC (permalink / raw) To: emacs org-mode mailing list Hello, > I am wondering if it would be useful to have this as a beginners > document - or if the existence of this document would lead > to more confusion than relief. > > http://orgmode.org/orgguide.pdf This is IMHO a much appreciated relief. Carsten, many thanks for all your efforts, Marco ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 21+ messages in thread
* Re: A shorter manual 2010-04-28 15:46 A shorter manual Carsten Dominik 2010-04-28 15:57 ` Erik Iverson 2010-04-28 16:00 ` Marco @ 2010-04-28 16:45 ` Thomas S. Dye 2010-04-28 17:24 ` Samuel Wales 3 siblings, 0 replies; 21+ messages in thread From: Thomas S. Dye @ 2010-04-28 16:45 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Carsten Dominik; +Cc: emacs org-mode mailing list On Apr 28, 2010, at 5:46 AM, Carsten Dominik wrote: > Dear all, > > with the Org-mode manual moving toward 200 pages, I am > starting to worry that people with stop in their tracks > when considering Org-mode, just because of the sheer size > of the manual. > > So I did a little experiment. I took the manual and stripped > everything which could be considered advanced material, but > keeping all features and all basic commands and customizations. > > What remains are about 50 pages. A document with the same > structure (even the same chapter numbers) as the manual. > I am wondering if it would be useful to have this as a beginners > document - or if the existence of this document would lead > to more confusion than relief. > > http://orgmode.org/orgguide.pdf > > I don't see this a an alternative for the manual - just > as an additional, rather static document, with little need for > updates. The manual would continue to be the comprehensive > and constantly updated document. > > Comments are welcome. > > - Carsten > Aloha Carsten, I think this is a terrific idea, immediately useful. The addition of hyperref links back to the advanced material in the manual might be useful and shouldn't require much maintenance. A section at the end of each chapter, "Additional Reading," with links to Worg articles, etc. might also prove useful, but could be a pain to maintain. All the best, Tom ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 21+ messages in thread
* Re: A shorter manual 2010-04-28 15:46 A shorter manual Carsten Dominik ` (2 preceding siblings ...) 2010-04-28 16:45 ` Thomas S. Dye @ 2010-04-28 17:24 ` Samuel Wales 2010-04-28 17:27 ` Samuel Wales 3 siblings, 1 reply; 21+ messages in thread From: Samuel Wales @ 2010-04-28 17:24 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Carsten Dominik; +Cc: emacs org-mode mailing list Great idea. If the manual were in org, then the tag, :basic:, would suffice. Just export only that tag. But maybe that is more work instead of less? On 2010-04-28, Carsten Dominik <carsten.dominik@gmail.com> wrote: > Dear all, > > with the Org-mode manual moving toward 200 pages, I am > starting to worry that people with stop in their tracks > when considering Org-mode, just because of the sheer size > of the manual. > > So I did a little experiment. I took the manual and stripped > everything which could be considered advanced material, but > keeping all features and all basic commands and customizations. > > What remains are about 50 pages. A document with the same > structure (even the same chapter numbers) as the manual. > I am wondering if it would be useful to have this as a beginners > document - or if the existence of this document would lead > to more confusion than relief. > > http://orgmode.org/orgguide.pdf > > I don't see this a an alternative for the manual - just > as an additional, rather static document, with little need for > updates. The manual would continue to be the comprehensive > and constantly updated document. > > Comments are welcome. > > - Carsten > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Emacs-orgmode mailing list > Please use `Reply All' to send replies to the list. > Emacs-orgmode@gnu.org > http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/emacs-orgmode > -- Q: How many CDC "scientists" does it take to change a lightbulb? A: "You only think it's dark." [CDC has denied a deadly disease for 25 years] ========== Retrovirus: http://www.wpinstitute.org/xmrv/index.html ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 21+ messages in thread
* Re: A shorter manual 2010-04-28 17:24 ` Samuel Wales @ 2010-04-28 17:27 ` Samuel Wales 2010-04-28 18:59 ` Thomas S. Dye 2010-04-28 21:34 ` Sebastian Rose 0 siblings, 2 replies; 21+ messages in thread From: Samuel Wales @ 2010-04-28 17:27 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Carsten Dominik; +Cc: emacs org-mode mailing list Just realized the need for export to info. So never mind. And it was obvious anyway. On 2010-04-28, Samuel Wales <samologist@gmail.com> wrote: > Great idea. > > If the manual were in org, then the tag, :basic:, would suffice. Just > export only that tag. But maybe that is more work instead of less? > > On 2010-04-28, Carsten Dominik <carsten.dominik@gmail.com> wrote: >> Dear all, >> >> with the Org-mode manual moving toward 200 pages, I am >> starting to worry that people with stop in their tracks >> when considering Org-mode, just because of the sheer size >> of the manual. >> >> So I did a little experiment. I took the manual and stripped >> everything which could be considered advanced material, but >> keeping all features and all basic commands and customizations. >> >> What remains are about 50 pages. A document with the same >> structure (even the same chapter numbers) as the manual. >> I am wondering if it would be useful to have this as a beginners >> document - or if the existence of this document would lead >> to more confusion than relief. >> >> http://orgmode.org/orgguide.pdf >> >> I don't see this a an alternative for the manual - just >> as an additional, rather static document, with little need for >> updates. The manual would continue to be the comprehensive >> and constantly updated document. >> >> Comments are welcome. >> >> - Carsten >> >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Emacs-orgmode mailing list >> Please use `Reply All' to send replies to the list. >> Emacs-orgmode@gnu.org >> http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/emacs-orgmode >> > > > -- > Q: How many CDC "scientists" does it take to change a lightbulb? > A: "You only think it's dark." [CDC has denied a deadly disease for 25 > years] > ========== > Retrovirus: http://www.wpinstitute.org/xmrv/index.html > -- Q: How many CDC "scientists" does it take to change a lightbulb? A: "You only think it's dark." [CDC has denied a deadly disease for 25 years] ========== Retrovirus: http://www.wpinstitute.org/xmrv/index.html ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 21+ messages in thread
* Re: A shorter manual 2010-04-28 17:27 ` Samuel Wales @ 2010-04-28 18:59 ` Thomas S. Dye 2010-04-28 21:34 ` Sebastian Rose 1 sibling, 0 replies; 21+ messages in thread From: Thomas S. Dye @ 2010-04-28 18:59 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Samuel Wales; +Cc: emacs org-mode mailing list, Carsten Dominik On Apr 28, 2010, at 7:27 AM, Samuel Wales wrote: > Just realized the need for export to info. So never mind. And it was > obvious anyway. > > On 2010-04-28, Samuel Wales <samologist@gmail.com> wrote: >> Great idea. >> >> If the manual were in org, then the tag, :basic:, would suffice. >> Just >> export only that tag. But maybe that is more work instead of less? >> >> On 2010-04-28, Carsten Dominik <carsten.dominik@gmail.com> wrote: >>> Dear all, >>> >>> with the Org-mode manual moving toward 200 pages, I am >>> starting to worry that people with stop in their tracks >>> when considering Org-mode, just because of the sheer size >>> of the manual. >>> >>> So I did a little experiment. I took the manual and stripped >>> everything which could be considered advanced material, but >>> keeping all features and all basic commands and customizations. >>> >>> What remains are about 50 pages. A document with the same >>> structure (even the same chapter numbers) as the manual. >>> I am wondering if it would be useful to have this as a beginners >>> document - or if the existence of this document would lead >>> to more confusion than relief. >>> >>> http://orgmode.org/orgguide.pdf >>> >>> I don't see this a an alternative for the manual - just >>> as an additional, rather static document, with little need for >>> updates. The manual would continue to be the comprehensive >>> and constantly updated document. >>> >>> Comments are welcome. >>> >>> - Carsten >>> Aloha all, What is the shortest route from org to info? Is it possible to convert the org files that make Worg manual pages to texinfo? Tom ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 21+ messages in thread
* Re: A shorter manual 2010-04-28 17:27 ` Samuel Wales 2010-04-28 18:59 ` Thomas S. Dye @ 2010-04-28 21:34 ` Sebastian Rose 2010-04-29 22:37 ` Samuel Wales 1 sibling, 1 reply; 21+ messages in thread From: Sebastian Rose @ 2010-04-28 21:34 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Samuel Wales; +Cc: emacs org-mode mailing list, Carsten Dominik >> If the manual were in org, then the tag, :basic:, would suffice. Just >> export only that tag. But maybe that is more work instead of less? >> >> On 2010-04-28, Carsten Dominik <carsten.dominik@gmail.com> wrote: >>> Dear all, >>> >>> with the Org-mode manual moving toward 200 pages, I am >>> starting to worry that people with stop in their tracks >>> when considering Org-mode, just because of the sheer size >>> of the manual. >>> >>> So I did a little experiment. I took the manual and stripped >>> everything which could be considered advanced material, but >>> keeping all features and all basic commands and customizations. Great idea! I hate to read more than neccessary :) but... > Just realized the need for export to info. So never mind. And it was > obvius anyway. I'd prefer to keep the full manual as texinfo file. It's so easy to search in info files for what ever you're looking for. Sebastian ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 21+ messages in thread
* Re: A shorter manual 2010-04-28 21:34 ` Sebastian Rose @ 2010-04-29 22:37 ` Samuel Wales 0 siblings, 0 replies; 21+ messages in thread From: Samuel Wales @ 2010-04-29 22:37 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Sebastian Rose; +Cc: emacs org-mode mailing list, Carsten Dominik On 2010-04-28, Sebastian Rose <sebastian_rose@gmx.de> wrote: > I'd prefer to keep the full manual as texinfo file. It's so easy to > search in info files for what ever you're looking for. It would be easy in org, too. But you'd have to have org export to texinfo or info, which is probably difficult. -- Q: How many CDC "scientists" does it take to change a lightbulb? A: "You only think it's dark." [CDC has denied a deadly disease for 25 years] ========== Retrovirus: http://www.wpinstitute.org/xmrv/index.html ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 21+ messages in thread
end of thread, other threads:[~2010-05-02 10:13 UTC | newest] Thread overview: 21+ messages (download: mbox.gz / follow: Atom feed) -- links below jump to the message on this page -- 2010-04-28 15:46 A shorter manual Carsten Dominik 2010-04-28 15:57 ` Erik Iverson 2010-04-28 17:05 ` Dan Davison 2010-04-28 18:43 ` Matti De Craene 2010-04-28 21:52 ` Carsten Dominik 2010-04-29 17:23 ` Dan Davison 2010-04-29 21:27 ` Carsten Dominik 2010-04-29 22:14 ` Dan Davison 2010-04-29 22:36 ` Samuel Wales 2010-04-30 6:47 ` Carsten Dominik 2010-05-01 6:41 ` Carsten Dominik 2010-04-30 14:12 ` Carsten Dominik 2010-05-02 10:13 ` Matti De Craene 2010-04-28 17:06 ` Dan Davison 2010-04-28 16:00 ` Marco 2010-04-28 16:45 ` Thomas S. Dye 2010-04-28 17:24 ` Samuel Wales 2010-04-28 17:27 ` Samuel Wales 2010-04-28 18:59 ` Thomas S. Dye 2010-04-28 21:34 ` Sebastian Rose 2010-04-29 22:37 ` Samuel Wales
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