From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 From: Carsten Dominik Subject: Re: A shorter manual Date: Thu, 29 Apr 2010 23:27:42 +0200 Message-ID: <933E2206-FB3A-4202-A969-AE54CC12C950@gmail.com> References: <096F60B3-65ED-464E-8CDC-1041CA69B706@gmail.com> <4BD85AD3.9070807@ccbr.umn.edu> <87aasn1pa4.fsf@stats.ox.ac.uk> <87r5lygokh.fsf@stats.ox.ac.uk> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v936) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Return-path: Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1O7bGw-0007rj-VJ for emacs-orgmode@gnu.org; Thu, 29 Apr 2010 17:27:51 -0400 Received: from [140.186.70.92] (port=56032 helo=eggs.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1O7bGu-0007oH-F3 for emacs-orgmode@gnu.org; Thu, 29 Apr 2010 17:27:49 -0400 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1O7bGs-0000w3-7d for emacs-orgmode@gnu.org; Thu, 29 Apr 2010 17:27:48 -0400 Received: from ey-out-1920.google.com ([74.125.78.147]:53857) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1O7bGr-0000vm-MY for emacs-orgmode@gnu.org; Thu, 29 Apr 2010 17:27:46 -0400 Received: by ey-out-1920.google.com with SMTP id 13so543141eye.34 for ; Thu, 29 Apr 2010 14:27:44 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <87r5lygokh.fsf@stats.ox.ac.uk> List-Id: "General discussions about Org-mode." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: emacs-orgmode-bounces+geo-emacs-orgmode=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Errors-To: emacs-orgmode-bounces+geo-emacs-orgmode=m.gmane.org@gnu.org To: Dan Davison Cc: emacs org-mode mailing list , Matti De Craene On Apr 29, 2010, at 7:23 PM, Dan Davison wrote: > Carsten Dominik writes: > >> On Apr 28, 2010, at 8:43 PM, Matti De Craene wrote: >> >>>> - 2.8 Drawers >>>> - 3.2 Column width and alignment >>>> - 3.3 The Spreadsheet (4 rather technical pages) >>>> - 7.4 Property Inheritance and 7.5 Column View >>>> (do beginners really need properties at all ??) >>> >>> >>> I would agree on this list (except maybe drawers). >>> >>> If there is room for additional sections maybe: >>> - include the org ref card as an appendix (which in itself offers a >>> very good overview of org) >>> - include some pointers into getting emacs for different OSes and >>> getting started with emacs. If there would be an O=B4Reilly book on >>> Org-mode this would be in the first chapter or so. For people who >>> started using emacs because of org (like me) the current =20 >>> Introduction >>> might still be too cryptic (?) >> >> Hi Dan, Matti, >> >> I think I agree, just cannot easliy let go of the spreadsheet >> as a core feature - you caught me there :-), and you are right, also >> >> I would be very glad to hand over the control over this document >> to either of you or to another volunteer. > > Hi Carsten, > > I'm afraid I don't want to take responsibility for this (a predictable > position). Sure, I understand. > Apart from anything else there are several areas of Org > that I don't know enough about. If there isn't a volunteer, perhaps we > could place this document on Worg, and someone could periodically =20 > review > the changes and judge whether they should be applied to the master =20 > copy > on the Org website? We could request on this list volunteers for =20 > someone > to make specific entries (e.g. adding a "Further reading" section =20 > for a > specific chapter). Hmmm, I am not sure how efficient this would be. I have it now down to 40 pages, with live links to the manual and to =20 tutorials at the end of each chapter... http://orgmode.org/orgguide.pdf I guess I am done here - a volunteer con still take this up... - Carsten > > Dan > > >> Maybe then we could >> make something really nice out of this experiment - I will not >> be able to spend much more time on it.... >> >> - Carsten >> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> >>> Matti >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On Wed, Apr 28, 2010 at 7:05 PM, Dan Davison >>> wrote: >>>> Erik Iverson writes: >>>> >>>>> Carsten Dominik wrote: >>>>>> Dear all, >>>>>> >>>>>> with the Org-mode manual moving toward 200 pages, I am >>>>>> starting to worry that people with stop in their tracks >>>>>> when considering Org-mode, just because of the sheer size >>>>>> of the manual. >>>>>> >>>>>> So I did a little experiment. I took the manual and stripped >>>>>> everything which could be considered advanced material, but >>>>>> keeping all features and all basic commands and customizations. >>>>>> >>>>>> What remains are about 50 pages. A document with the same >>>>>> structure (even the same chapter numbers) as the manual. >>>>>> I am wondering if it would be useful to have this as a beginners >>>>>> document - or if the existence of this document would lead >>>>>> to more confusion than relief. >>>>>> >>>>>> http://orgmode.org/orgguide.pdf >>>>>> >>>>>> I don't see this a an alternative for the manual - just >>>>>> as an additional, rather static document, with little need for >>>>>> updates. The manual would continue to be the comprehensive >>>>>> and constantly updated document. >>>>>> >>>>>> Comments are welcome. >>>> >>>> Hi Carsten, >>>> >>>> I think this would be a good thing to have. >>>> >>>> It would be good to have active HTML links to the relevant main >>>> manual >>>> sections in PDF and HTML versions. (even if this is not =20 >>>> encouraged by >>>> texinfo format). >>>> >>>> I'm tempted to suggest going even a little further than you have >>>> done. >>>> If you were to make it shorter, I would suggest removing the >>>> following >>>> sections, and to replace removed sections with very short non- >>>> technical >>>> advertisements for features that are covered in the main manual. >>>> >>>> - 2.8 Drawers >>>> - 3.2 Column width and alignment >>>> - 3.3 The Spreadsheet (4 rather technical pages) >>>> - 7.4 Property Inheritance and 7.5 Column View >>>> (do beginners really need properties at all ??) >>>> >>>> Dan >>>> >>>>> >>>>> I think it's a great idea. The R project has something called "An >>>>> Introduction to R" for beginners, separate from the complete =20 >>>>> manual. >>>>> I think that as a beginner, and wondering how to break into >>>>> learning a >>>>> new package, that "reading the manual" has certain negative >>>>> psychological connotations that "reading the intro document" does >>>>> not, >>>>> not the least of which is the length of full manual. >>>>> >>>>> And since knowing just the basics of org can be immensely >>>>> beneficial, >>>>> I think it's even more reason to have a basic intro document. >>>>> >>>>> --Erik >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> Emacs-orgmode mailing list >>>>> Please use `Reply All' to send replies to the list. >>>>> Emacs-orgmode@gnu.org >>>>> http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/emacs-orgmode >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Emacs-orgmode mailing list >>>> Please use `Reply All' to send replies to the list. >>>> Emacs-orgmode@gnu.org >>>> http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/emacs-orgmode >>>> >> >> - Carsten >> >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Emacs-orgmode mailing list >> Please use `Reply All' to send replies to the list. >> Emacs-orgmode@gnu.org >> http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/emacs-orgmode - Carsten