Playing down the text in org-mode

Playing down the text in org-mode

[fatiparty--- via General discussions about Org-mode.]

In org-mode one can use the emphasizing tags 

*word*   /word/   _word_

Is there anything to perform the opposite, playing down the text?

Re: Playing down the text in org-mode

[Juan Manuel Macías]

Hi,

fatiparty--- via "General discussions about Org-mode." writes:

> Is there anything to perform the opposite, playing down the text?

Are you referring to nested emphasis, something like in LaTeX

\emph{foo \emph{bar} baz}

= foo...baz in italic; bar in normal font?

Best regards,

Juan Manuel 

Re: Playing down the text in org-mode

[John Kitchin]

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It depends on what you mean. I can't think of a standard markup for
de-emphasis. You could imply it with color perhaps, e.g. some shade of
grey, or size  by making it smaller. At least for LaTex/HTML, both of those
can be done. You would either need to use something like a macro, or a link
for something like that I think. I made a link for colorized text once (
https://kitchingroup.cheme.cmu.edu/blog/2016/11/08/New-color-link-in-org-9-0-using-font-lock-to-color-the-text/)
that you might be able to adapt.

John

-----------------------------------
Professor John Kitchin (he/him/his)
Doherty Hall A207F
Department of Chemical Engineering
Carnegie Mellon University
Pittsburgh, PA 15213
412-268-7803
@johnkitchin
http://kitchingroup.cheme.cmu.edu



On Thu, Jan 13, 2022 at 1:28 PM fatiparty--- via General discussions about
Org-mode. <emacs-orgmode@gnu.org> wrote:

> In org-mode one can use the emphasizing tags
>
> *word*   /word/   _word_
>
> Is there anything to perform the opposite, playing down the text?
>
>

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Re: Playing down the text in org-mode

[Juan Manuel Macías]

John Kitchin writes:

> It depends on what you mean. I can't think of a standard markup for
> de-emphasis. You could imply it with color perhaps, e.g. some shade of
> grey, or size  by making it smaller. At least for LaTex/HTML, both of
> those can be done. You would either need to use something like a
> macro, or a link for something like that I think.

The problem is that the concept of nested emphasis only works in LaTeX.
I agree that a macro would be a good solution, putting the argument in
'normal' text. An approximation could be:

#+begin_src emacs-lisp
  (defun macro-no-emph (arg)
    (let* ((backend org-export-current-backend))
      (cond ((eq org-export-current-backend 'latex)
             (concat "@@latex:{\\normalfont @@" arg "@@latex:}@@"))
            ((eq org-export-current-backend 'html)
             (concat "@@html:<span style=\"font-style:normal;\">@@" arg "@@html:</span>@@"))
            ((eq org-export-current-backend 'odt)
             ;; a character style `normal' must be definded for odt
             (concat "@@odt:<text:span text:style-name=\"normal\">@@" arg "@@odt:</text:span>@@")))))

  (setq org-export-global-macros
        '(("noemph" . "(eval (mi-macro-emph $1))")))
#+end_src

/foo {{{noemph(bar)}}} baz/

Playing down the text in org-mode

[fatiparty--- via General discussions about Org-mode.]

Jan 14, 2022, 07:19 by maciaschain@posteo.net:

> John Kitchin writes:
>
>> It depends on what you mean. I can't think of a standard markup for
>> de-emphasis. You could imply it with color perhaps, e.g. some shade of
>> grey, or size  by making it smaller. At least for LaTex/HTML, both of
>> those can be done. You would either need to use something like a
>> macro, or a link for something like that I think.
>>
>
> The problem is that the concept of nested emphasis only works in LaTeX.
> I agree that a macro would be a good solution, putting the argument in
> 'normal' text. An approximation could be:
>
> #+begin_src emacs-lisp
>  (defun macro-no-emph (arg)
>  (let* ((backend org-export-current-backend))
>  (cond ((eq org-export-current-backend 'latex)
>  (concat "@@latex:{\\normalfont @@" arg "@@latex:}@@"))
>  ((eq org-export-current-backend 'html)
>  (concat "@@html:<span style=\"font-style:normal;\">@@" arg "@@html:</span>@@"))
>  ((eq org-export-current-backend 'odt)
>  ;; a character style `normal' must be definded for odt
>  (concat "@@odt:<text:span text:style-name=\"normal\">@@" arg "@@odt:</text:span>@@")))))
>
>  (setq org-export-global-macros
>  '(("noemph" . "(eval (mi-macro-emph $1))")))
> #+end_src
>
> /foo {{{noemph(bar)}}} baz/
>
I find not much need for nested non-emphasised within emphasized text.

What I am looking for in playing down, but as compared to normal text.  
In summary, as there are characters to emphasize text over normal text,
I am asking if there could be a some other characters that show the text
in less conspicuous manner when compared to normal text.

Playing down the text in org-mode

[fatiparty--- via General discussions about Org-mode.]

Jan 14, 2022, 06:50 by maciaschain@posteo.net:

> Hi,
>
> fatiparty--- via "General discussions about Org-mode." writes:
>
>> Is there anything to perform the opposite, playing down the text?
>>
>
> Are you referring to nested emphasis, something like in LaTeX
>
> \emph{foo \emph{bar} baz}
>
> = foo...baz in italic; bar in normal font?
>
> Best regards,
> Juan Manuel
>

I am referring to an org file.  Suppose I have a file doc.org

cat doc.org

a  celebration that started in the 4th Century [IV] in the Southern Levant
 [ _a geographical region that corresponds to present-day Israel and Palestine_ ].

org-mode in emacs will emphasize by underlining geographical detail.  I would like 
to have a way to play down the text rather than emphasizing the text.  It would be 
beneficial to have other bracketing characters for doing the opposite of emphasizing.

Re: Playing down the text in org-mode

[John Kitchin]

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You might check out my scimax-editmarks package. You can create bracket
syntax like that which can be fontified, e.g. made smaller, lighter, etc.
to de-emphasize. It is not org-syntax, and uses a pre-processing step on
export, but if all you want is visual syntax in org-mode, something like
this might be what you are looking for. The details are in this video
description, and you can see what it looks like and does here
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qBmvBkpzixs

John

-----------------------------------
Professor John Kitchin (he/him/his)
Doherty Hall A207F
Department of Chemical Engineering
Carnegie Mellon University
Pittsburgh, PA 15213
412-268-7803
@johnkitchin
http://kitchingroup.cheme.cmu.edu



On Thu, Jan 13, 2022 at 2:16 PM fatiparty--- via General discussions about
Org-mode. <emacs-orgmode@gnu.org> wrote:

>
> Jan 14, 2022, 06:50 by maciaschain@posteo.net:
>
> > Hi,
> >
> > fatiparty--- via "General discussions about Org-mode." writes:
> >
> >> Is there anything to perform the opposite, playing down the text?
> >>
> >
> > Are you referring to nested emphasis, something like in LaTeX
> >
> > \emph{foo \emph{bar} baz}
> >
> > = foo...baz in italic; bar in normal font?
> >
> > Best regards,
> > Juan Manuel
> >
>
> I am referring to an org file.  Suppose I have a file doc.org
>
> cat doc.org
>
> a  celebration that started in the 4th Century [IV] in the Southern Levant
>  [ _a geographical region that corresponds to present-day Israel and
> Palestine_ ].
>
> org-mode in emacs will emphasize by underlining geographical detail.  I
> would like
> to have a way to play down the text rather than emphasizing the text.  It
> would be
> beneficial to have other bracketing characters for doing the opposite of
> emphasizing.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

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Re: Playing down the text in org-mode

[Juan Manuel Macías]

fatiparty--- via "General discussions about Org-mode." writes:

> _a geographical region that corresponds to present-day Israel and Palestine_

In any case, from a strictly (ortho)typographical point of view this is a
matter of nesting emphasis. If what you want to do is highlight a word
within another emphasis (an underline), the correct typographical
procedure is to italicize or bold that word:

_a /geographical/ region that corresponds to present-day Israel and
Palestine_

==>

\uline{a \emph{geographical} region that corresponds to present-day
Israel and Palestine}

What you can't do in Org is nest emphases of the same order:

#+begin_example
/The translators of the /Odyssey/ in the Hispanic tradiction/
#+end_example

It does not produce in LaTeX:

#+begin_src latex
  \emph{The translators of the \emph{Odyssey} in the Hispanic tradiction}
#+end_src

It is not a matter of a passage being de-emphasized (it doesn't work
that way), but rather that it is emphasized within another emphasis
text. In the above case, the way to emphasize Odyssey in a text already
emphasized in italics is with a normal font or with an underline (the
correct thing is with a normal font).

There are two separate questions here: how that is represented in Org
and how it should be exported.

Playing down the text in org-mode

[fatiparty--- via General discussions about Org-mode.]

Jan 14, 2022, 07:42 by maciaschain@posteo.net:

> fatiparty--- via "General discussions about Org-mode." writes:
>
>> _a geographical region that corresponds to present-day Israel and Palestine_
>>
>
> In any case, from a strictly (ortho)typographical point of view this is a
> matter of nesting emphasis. If what you want to do is highlight a word
> within another emphasis (an underline), the correct typographical
> procedure is to italicize or bold that word:
>
> _a /geographical/ region that corresponds to present-day Israel and
> Palestine_
>
> ==>
>
> \uline{a \emph{geographical} region that corresponds to present-day
> Israel and Palestine}
>
> What you can't do in Org is nest emphases of the same order:
>
> #+begin_example
> /The translators of the /Odyssey/ in the Hispanic tradiction/
> #+end_example
>
> It does not produce in LaTeX:
>
> #+begin_src latex
>  \emph{The translators of the \emph{Odyssey} in the Hispanic tradiction}
> #+end_src
>
> It is not a matter of a passage being de-emphasized (it doesn't work
> that way), but rather that it is emphasized within another emphasis
> text. In the above case, the way to emphasize Odyssey in a text already
> emphasized in italics is with a normal font or with an underline (the
> correct thing is with a normal font).
>

I am discussing something slightly different.

Here is normal text within -which there is some understated text- before continuing with normal text.


> There are two separate questions here: how that is represented in Org
> and how it should be exported.
>

When using export, things should happens as happens with emphasized text (but with good visual
indication that text is understated compared to normal text). 

Re: Playing down the text in org-mode

[Juan Manuel Macías]

fatiparty@tutanota.com writes:

> I am discussing something slightly different.
>
> Here is normal text within -which there is some understated text- before continuing with normal text.

Yes, it seems that I have understood you horribly wrong, sorry for the
noise (it must be the effects of the third modern vaccine that they gave
me yesterday :-)

In short, what you want is that a part of the text is "obscured" in some
way with respect to the main body text, and you would like Org to have
some marks for it. I see an important basic problem: there are many
procedures to reduce the reading importance of a text: simply pass that
text to a footnote, use dashes, parentheses or brackets, put the text in
a smaller size (which is the usual when these passages are isolated
paragraphs). I think it is better to define all these questions in the
output formats, through post-processing, and in Org use macros, custom
links, special blocks, the procedure that John has shared here, etc. But a
"universal" no-emphasis mark doesn't seem viable to me, IMHO.

Best regards,

Juan Manuel 

Playing down the text in org-mode

[fatiparty--- via General discussions about Org-mode.]

Jan 14, 2022, 08:20 by maciaschain@posteo.net:

> fatiparty@tutanota.com writes:
>
>> I am discussing something slightly different.
>>
>> Here is normal text within -which there is some understated text- before continuing with normal text.
>>
>
> Yes, it seems that I have understood you horribly wrong, sorry for the
> noise (it must be the effects of the third modern vaccine that they gave
> me yesterday :-)
>

I'm sure you'll do great.


> In short, what you want is that a part of the text is "obscured" in some
> way with respect to the main body text, and you would like Org to have
> some marks for it. I see an important basic problem: there are many
> procedures to reduce the reading importance of a text: simply pass that
> text to a footnote, use dashes, parentheses or brackets, put the text in
> a smaller size (which is the usual when these passages are isolated
> paragraphs). I think it is better to define all these questions in the
> output formats, through post-processing, and in Org use macros, custom
> links, special blocks, the procedure that John has shared here, etc. But a
> "universal" no-emphasis mark doesn't seem viable to me, IMHO.
>

The basic problem with footnote is the requirement for the footnote marker
to be incolumn 0, no indentation allowed.
Are there other altornatives?  Any tags to change colour.  Would need some examples.


> Best regards,
> Juan Manuel
>

Re: Playing down the text in org-mode

[Ihor Radchenko]

fatiparty--- via "General discussions about Org-mode."
<emacs-orgmode@gnu.org> writes:

> The basic problem with footnote is the requirement for the footnote marker
> to be incolumn 0, no indentation allowed.
> Are there other altornatives?  Any tags to change colour.  Would need some examples.

You can use inline footnotes:

‘[fn:: This is the inline definition of this footnote]’
     An anonymous footnote where the definition is given directly at the
     reference point.

or

‘[fn:NAME: a definition]’
     An inline definition of a footnote, which also specifies a name for
     the note.  Since Org allows multiple references to the same note,
     you can then use ‘[fn:NAME]’ to create additional references.


Best,
Ihor

Playing down the text in org-mode

[fatiparty--- via General discussions about Org-mode.]

Jan 14, 2022, 08:20 by maciaschain@posteo.net:

> fatiparty@tutanota.com writes:
>
>> I am discussing something slightly different.
>>
>> Here is normal text within -which there is some understated text- before continuing with normal text.
>>
>
> Yes, it seems that I have understood you horribly wrong, sorry for the
> noise (it must be the effects of the third modern vaccine that they gave
> me yesterday :-)
>
> In short, what you want is that a part of the text is "obscured" in some
> way with respect to the main body text, and you would like Org to have
> some marks for it. I see an important basic problem: there are many
> procedures to reduce the reading importance of a text: simply pass that
> text to a footnote, use dashes, parentheses or brackets, put the text in
> a smaller size (which is the usual when these passages are isolated
> paragraphs). I think it is better to define all these questions in the
> output formats, through post-processing, and in Org use macros, custom
> links, special blocks, the procedure that John has shared here, etc. 
>
> But a "universal" no-emphasis mark doesn't seem viable to me, IMHO.
>

Are there any universal marks to charge the typeface used.  That can be more
general.  If I do something in emacs-lisp I would still need some form of
containment characters.


> Best regards,
>
> Juan Manuel
>

Re: Playing down the text in org-mode

[Juan Manuel Macías]

fatiparty@tutanota.com writes:

> If I do something in emacs-lisp I would still need some form of
> containment characters.

I think a custom link would suffice for text within the paragraph. A
quick example:

#+begin_src emacs-lisp 
  (defface smaller
      '((t :foreground "#8D8D84" :height 0.9))
      "")

  (org-link-set-parameters "smaller"
			   :face 'smaller
			   :export (lambda (path desc format)
				     (cond
				      ((eq format 'latex)
				       (format "{\\small %s}" desc)))))
#+end_src

This text is important, [[smaller:x][but this one is not so important]]

A screenshot:

https://i.imgur.com/11KbJHQ.png

if you want finer tuning and more control over the format, John's
scimax-editmarks package seems like a very interesting option (although
I think Org should remain as format-agnostic as possible...)

Best regards,

Juan Manuel 

Re: Playing down the text in org-mode

[Eric S Fraga]

On Thursday, 13 Jan 2022 at 21:39, Juan Manuel Macías wrote:
> I think a custom link would suffice for text within the paragraph. A
> quick example:

Very nice example.  Thank you.

Custom links are excellent for this kind of behaviour tuning while being
portable if the link definition is included in the org file.  I use this
approach in lieu of inline tasks for creating margin notes (in the
export), for instance.   

-- 
: Eric S Fraga, with org release_9.5.2-298-g1f48d2 in Emacs 29.0.50

Playing down the text in org-mode

[fatiparty--- via General discussions about Org-mode.]

Jan 14, 2022, 21:41 by e.fraga@ucl.ac.uk:

> On Thursday, 13 Jan 2022 at 21:39, Juan Manuel Macías wrote:
>
>> I think a custom link would suffice for text within the paragraph. A
>> quick example:
>>
>
> Very nice example.  Thank you.
>
> Custom links are excellent for this kind of behaviour tuning while being
> portable if the link definition is included in the org file.  I use this
> approach in lieu of inline tasks for creating margin notes (in the
> export), for instance. 
>

How can I remove the background and underline for footnotes, and change
foreground colour.


> -- 
> : Eric S Fraga, with org release_9.5.2-298-g1f48d2 in Emacs 29.0.50
>

Re: Playing down the text in org-mode

[Eric S Fraga]

On Friday, 14 Jan 2022 at 14:03, fatiparty@tutanota.com wrote:
> How can I remove the background and underline for footnotes, and change
> foreground colour.

M-x customize-face RET org-footnote RET

and adapt as you see fit?

-- 
: Eric S Fraga, with org release_9.5.2-298-g1f48d2 in Emacs 29.0.50

Playing down the text in org-mode

[fatiparty--- via General discussions about Org-mode.]

Jan 15, 2022, 01:30 by e.fraga@ucl.ac.uk:

> On Friday, 14 Jan 2022 at 14:03, fatiparty@tutanota.com wrote:
>
>> How can I remove the background and underline for footnotes, and change
>> foreground colour.
>>
>
> M-x customize-face RET org-footnote RET
>
> and adapt as you see fit?
>

I would like to include the customisation using elisp code 


> -- 
> : Eric S Fraga, with org release_9.5.2-298-g1f48d2 in Emacs 29.0.50
>

Re: Playing down the text in org-mode

[Eric S Fraga]

On Friday, 14 Jan 2022 at 14:44, fatiparty@tutanota.com wrote:
> I would like to include the customisation using elisp code

Have a look at, for instance,

,----[ C-h f set-face-foreground RET ]
| set-face-foreground is an interactive native compiled Lisp function in
| ‘faces.el’.
| 
| (set-face-foreground FACE COLOR &optional FRAME)
| 
| Change the foreground color of face FACE to COLOR (a string).
| FRAME nil or not specified means change face on all frames.
| COLOR can be a system-defined color name (see ‘list-colors-display’)
| or a hex spec of the form #RRGGBB.
| When called interactively, prompts for the face and color.
| 
`----

and equivalent for background.  I think there's a more general way of
setting all the properties but I don't know enough as I use the
customisation interface for these.

-- 
: Eric S Fraga, with org release_9.5.2-306-g9623da in Emacs 29.0.50

Playing down the text in org-mode

[fatiparty--- via General discussions about Org-mode.]

Jan 15, 2022, 02:13 by e.fraga@ucl.ac.uk:

> On Friday, 14 Jan 2022 at 14:44, fatiparty@tutanota.com wrote:
>
>> I would like to include the customisation using elisp code
>>
>
> Have a look at, for instance,
>
> ,----[ C-h f set-face-foreground RET ]
> | set-face-foreground is an interactive native compiled Lisp function in
> | ‘faces.el’.
> | 
> | (set-face-foreground FACE COLOR &optional FRAME)
> | 
> | Change the foreground color of face FACE to COLOR (a string).
> | FRAME nil or not specified means change face on all frames.
> | COLOR can be a system-defined color name (see ‘list-colors-display’)
> | or a hex spec of the form #RRGGBB.
> | When called interactively, prompts for the face and color.
> | 
> `----
>
What is the face name associated with inline footnotes?


> and equivalent for background.  I think there's a more general way of
> setting all the properties but I don't know enough as I use the
> customisation interface for these.
>
> -- 
> : Eric S Fraga, with org release_9.5.2-306-g9623da in Emacs 29.0.50
>

Re: Playing down the text in org-mode

[Juan Manuel Macías]

fatiparty--- via "General discussions about Org-mode." writes:

> What is the face name associated with inline footnotes?

M-x describe-face RET Is your friend. Place the cursor on any inline
note, run this command and you will see that the face you need to modify
is called `org-footnote'.

M-: (info "(elisp)faces") RET

With this you have at your disposal all the information about faces, how
to manipulate them, etc.

I use a lot the `set-face-attribute' function in my init, to modify some
things of the theme that I have loaded. For example, if you want to
change the color of your notes and make them a little smaller in size:

(set-face-attribute 'org-footnote nil :foreground "DimGray" :height 0.9)

Best regards,

Juan Manuel 

Playing down the text in org-mode

[fatiparty--- via General discussions about Org-mode.]

Jan 15, 2022, 08:00 by maciaschain@posteo.net:

> fatiparty--- via "General discussions about Org-mode." writes:
>
>> What is the face name associated with inline footnotes?
>>
>
> M-x describe-face RET Is your friend. Place the cursor on any inline
> note, run this command and you will see that the face you need to modify
> is called `org-footnote'.
>
Very useful thing.


> M-: (info "(elisp)faces") RET
>
> With this you have at your disposal all the information about faces, how
> to manipulate them, etc.
>
> I use a lot the `set-face-attribute' function in my init, to modify some
> things of the theme that I have loaded. For example, if you want to
> change the color of your notes and make them a little smaller in size:
>
> (set-face-attribute 'org-footnote nil :foreground "DimGray" :height 0.9)
>

Have done

(set-face-attribute 'org-footnote nil 
   :foreground "d2691e"  :height 0.8  :width :extended  :weight :normal  :underline "red")

But this is giving "error: Invalid face, org-footnote"


> Best regards,
>
> Juan Manuel
>

Re: Playing down the text in org-mode

[Juan Manuel Macías]

fatiparty@tutanota.com writes:

> But this is giving "error: Invalid face, org-footnote"

Try this (I forgot to mention this, sorry):

(with-eval-after-load 'org
(set-face-attribute 'org-footnote nil :foreground "d2691e" :height 0.8 :extend t :underline "red"))

Playing down the text in org-mode

[fatiparty--- via General discussions about Org-mode.]

Jan 15, 2022, 08:41 by maciaschain@posteo.net:

> fatiparty@tutanota.com writes:
>
>> But this is giving "error: Invalid face, org-footnote"
>>
>
> Try this (I forgot to mention this, sorry):
>
> (with-eval-after-load 'org
> (set-face-attribute 'org-footnote nil :foreground "d2691e" :height 0.8 :extend t :underline "red"))
>
Is this requirement just associated with org-footnote, as it is not usual to use "with-eval-after-load"
to apply customisations.

Re: Playing down the text in org-mode

[Juan Manuel Macías]

fatiparty--- via "General discussions about Org-mode." writes:

> Is this requirement just associated with org-footnote, as it is not usual to use "with-eval-after-load"
> to apply customisations.

It's a face defined by org, and org must be loaded before. You can also
put before, simply, (require 'org) or (require 'org-faces).

Playing down the text in org-mode

[fatiparty--- via General discussions about Org-mode.]

Jan 15, 2022, 08:41 by maciaschain@posteo.net:

> fatiparty@tutanota.com writes:
>
>> But this is giving "error: Invalid face, org-footnote"
>>
>
> Try this (I forgot to mention this, sorry):
>
> (with-eval-after-load 'org
> (set-face-attribute 'org-footnote nil :foreground "d2691e" :height 0.8 :extend t :underline "red"))
>
That works well.  But although I am atttempting to remove the background and change the foreground colour, the old colours remain.

(with-eval-after-load 'org
  (set-face-attribute 'org-footnote nil
     :foreground "d2691e" :background 'nil :underline 'nil
     :weight 'normal :slant 'italic :height 0.8))

Re: Playing down the text in org-mode

[Juan Manuel Macías]

fatiparty@tutanota.com writes:

> That works well.  But although I am atttempting to remove the
> background and change the foreground colour, the old colours remain.
>
> (with-eval-after-load 'org
>   (set-face-attribute 'org-footnote nil
>      :foreground "d2691e" :background 'nil :underline 'nil
>      :weight 'normal :slant 'italic :height 0.8))

You are missing a "#" symbol in the color name:

:foreground "#d2691e"

Playing down the text in org-mode

[fatiparty--- via General discussions about Org-mode.]

Jan 15, 2022, 09:16 by maciaschain@posteo.net:

> fatiparty@tutanota.com writes:
>
>> That works well.  But although I am atttempting to remove the
>> background and change the foreground colour, the old colours remain.
>>
>> (with-eval-after-load 'org
>>   (set-face-attribute 'org-footnote nil
>>      :foreground "d2691e" :background 'nil :underline 'nil
>>      :weight 'normal :slant 'italic :height 0.8))
>>
>
> You are missing a "#" symbol in the color name:
>
> :foreground "#d2691e"
>

It is much better now.  In Emacs, footnotes have a background  color.  I still 
can see the footnote background colour with ":background 'nil".

Re: Playing down the text in org-mode

[Juan Manuel Macías]

fatiparty--- via "General discussions about Org-mode." writes:

> It is much better now.  In Emacs, footnotes have a background  color.  I still 
> can see the footnote background colour with ":background 'nil".

What theme are you using? Usually, org-footnote does not have a defined background.

In any case, you can evaluate (describe-face default), and add the value
of background in default to org-footnote.

Playing down the text in org-mode

[fatiparty--- via General discussions about Org-mode.]

Jan 15, 2022, 10:23 by maciaschain@posteo.net:

> fatiparty--- via "General discussions about Org-mode." writes:
>
>> It is much better now.  In Emacs, footnotes have a background  color.  I still 
>> can see the footnote background colour with ":background 'nil".
>>
>
> What theme are you using? Usually, org-footnote does not have a defined background.
>

I am using modus-themes dark theme

> In any case, you can evaluate (describe-face default), and add the value
>
> of background in default to org-footnote.
>

Doing describe-face  on the footnote I have "Background: unspecified"

Re: Playing down the text in org-mode

[Juan Manuel Macías]

fatiparty--- via "General discussions about Org-mode." writes:

> Doing describe-face  on the footnote I have "Background: unspecified"

So org-footnote does not have a defined background, which is usual. You
don't need to remove any background color. You should be seeing in your
notes the background for 'default' face in that theme.

Re: Playing down the text in org-mode

[Tim Cross]

fatiparty--- via "General discussions about Org-mode." <emacs-orgmode@gnu.org> writes:

> Jan 15, 2022, 02:13 by e.fraga@ucl.ac.uk:
>
>> On Friday, 14 Jan 2022 at 14:44, fatiparty@tutanota.com wrote:
>>
>>> I would like to include the customisation using elisp code
>>>
>>
>> Have a look at, for instance,
>>
>> ,----[ C-h f set-face-foreground RET ]
>> | set-face-foreground is an interactive native compiled Lisp function in
>> | ‘faces.el’.
>> | 
>> | (set-face-foreground FACE COLOR &optional FRAME)
>> | 
>> | Change the foreground color of face FACE to COLOR (a string).
>> | FRAME nil or not specified means change face on all frames.
>> | COLOR can be a system-defined color name (see ‘list-colors-display’)
>> | or a hex spec of the form #RRGGBB.
>> | When called interactively, prompts for the face and color.
>> | 
>> `----
>>
> What is the face name associated with inline footnotes?
>

You might find the command M-x list-faces-display useful as it will show
you a list of the known faces with sample text using the attributes of
each face. You can also use the interface to inspect the current values
for a face and modify the face (via custom).

For setting attributes using elisp, you might find the function
set-face-attributes useful. 

Playing down the text in org-mode

[fatiparty--- via General discussions about Org-mode.]

Jan 14, 2022, 09:39 by maciaschain@posteo.net:

> fatiparty@tutanota.com writes:
>
>> If I do something in emacs-lisp I would still need some form of
>> containment characters.
>>
>
> I think a custom link would suffice for text within the paragraph. A
> quick example:
>
> #+begin_src emacs-lisp 
>  (defface smaller
>  '((t :foreground "#8D8D84" :height 0.9))
>  "")
>
>  (org-link-set-parameters "smaller"
>  :face 'smaller
>  :export (lambda (path desc format)
>  (cond
>  ((eq format 'latex)
>  (format "{\\small %s}" desc)))))
> #+end_src
>
> This text is important, [[smaller:x][but this one is not so important]]
>
> A screenshot:
>
> https://i.imgur.com/11KbJHQ.png
>
> if you want finer tuning and more control over the format, John's
> scimax-editmarks package seems like a very interesting option (although
> I think Org should remain as format-agnostic as possible...)
>
> Best regards,
> Juan Manuel
>
I would be great if I can do something similar to a footnote (using mg: rather than fn:)
 but with the variation  that the text is also within the square brackets.

Example:

[mg:1 Text here uses specialized typeface from main text]

Re: Playing down the text in org-mode

[Juan Manuel Macías]

fatiparty@tutanota.com writes:

>  but with the variation  that the text is also within the square brackets

You can use inline footnotes, but I'm afraid you couldn't stop using
"fn" here (unless you hack the Org code). However you can use a
convention, something like:

Lorem[fn:mg1:blah blah blah] ipsum dolor sit amet, consectetuer
adipiscing elit. Donec hendrerit tempor[fn:mg2:blah blah blah] tellus.
Donec pretium posuere tellus...

And you can also use anonymous online footnotes:

Lorem[fn::dolor ipsum lorem] ipsum dolor sit amet, consectetuer
adipiscing elit. Donec hendrerit tempor[fn::blah blah blah] tellus.
Donec pretium posuere tellus...

(and for more contrast, you can also modify the orf-footnote face to
your liking).

Playing down the text in org-mode

[fatiparty--- via General discussions about Org-mode.]

Jan 14, 2022, 11:08 by maciaschain@posteo.net:

> fatiparty@tutanota.com writes:
>
>> but with the variation  that the text is also within the square brackets
>>
>
> You can use inline footnotes, but I'm afraid you couldn't stop using
> "fn" here (unless you hack the Org code). However you can use a
> convention, something like:
>
> Lorem[fn:mg1:blah blah blah] ipsum dolor sit amet, consectetuer
> adipiscing elit. Donec hendrerit tempor[fn:mg2:blah blah blah] tellus.
> Donec pretium posuere tellus...
>
> And you can also use anonymous online footnotes:
>
> Lorem[fn::dolor ipsum lorem] ipsum dolor sit amet, consectetuer
> adipiscing elit. Donec hendrerit tempor[fn::blah blah blah] tellus.
> Donec pretium posuere tellus...
>
Anonymous online footnotes is close to what I want because the text 
within gets colourised too.

I would like to have something you suggested using a foreground
and a reduced height.


> (and for more contrast, you can also modify the orf-footnote face to
> your liking).
>

Playing down the text in org-mode

[fatiparty--- via General discussions about Org-mode.]

Jan 14, 2022, 07:42 by maciaschain@posteo.net:

> fatiparty--- via "General discussions about Org-mode." writes:
>
>> _a geographical region that corresponds to present-day Israel and Palestine_
>>

I have used the _ for underlining.  This could hove been misleading, because I do not want
normal text within the underlined part.  It is an example of emphasizing using _ 

It would be great if there was something else that instead of emphasizing the text compared
to normal, the part is downplayed.  I am currently using _ bet changing the colour to be faint.
But this is not a long term solution.


> In any case, from a strictly (ortho)typographical point of view this is a
> matter of nesting emphasis. If what you want to do is highlight a word
> within another emphasis (an underline), the correct typographical
> procedure is to italicize or bold that word:
>
> _a /geographical/ region that corresponds to present-day Israel and
> Palestine_
>
> ==>
>
> \uline{a \emph{geographical} region that corresponds to present-day
> Israel and Palestine}
>
> What you can't do in Org is nest emphases of the same order:
>
> #+begin_example
> /The translators of the /Odyssey/ in the Hispanic tradiction/
> #+end_example
>
> It does not produce in LaTeX:
>
> #+begin_src latex
>  \emph{The translators of the \emph{Odyssey} in the Hispanic tradiction}
> #+end_src
>
> It is not a matter of a passage being de-emphasized (it doesn't work
> that way), but rather that it is emphasized within another emphasis
> text. In the above case, the way to emphasize Odyssey in a text already
> emphasized in italics is with a normal font or with an underline (the
> correct thing is with a normal font).
>
> There are two separate questions here: how that is represented in Org
> and how it should be exported.
>

Playing down the text in org-mode

[fatiparty--- via General discussions about Org-mode.]

Jan 14, 2022, 07:22 by jkitchin@andrew.cmu.edu:

> You might check out my scimax-editmarks package. You can create bracket syntax like that which can be fontified, e.g. made smaller, lighter, etc. to de-emphasize. It is not org-syntax, and uses a pre-processing step on export, but if all you want is visual syntax in org-mode, something like this might be what you are looking for. The details are in this video description, and you can see what it looks like and does here > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qBmvBkpzixs
>
> John
>
>
You make a good case on the reasons why one would like to have text that is somewhat obscured.
Great functionality if it gets to be introduced in official org-mode.


>
> On Thu, Jan 13, 2022 at 2:16 PM fatiparty--- via General discussions about Org-mode. <> emacs-orgmode@gnu.org> > wrote:
>
>>
>> Jan 14, 2022, 06:50 by>> maciaschain@posteo.net>> :
>>  
>>  > Hi,
>>  >
>>  > fatiparty--- via "General discussions about Org-mode." writes:
>>  >
>>  >> Is there anything to perform the opposite, playing down the text?
>>  >>
>>  >
>>  > Are you referring to nested emphasis, something like in LaTeX
>>  >
>>  > \emph{foo \emph{bar} baz}
>>  >
>>  > = foo...baz in italic; bar in normal font?
>>  >
>>  > Best regards,
>>  > Juan Manuel
>>  >
>>  
>>  I am referring to an org file.  Suppose I have a file >> doc.org <http://doc.org>
>>  
>>  cat >> doc.org <http://doc.org>
>>  
>>  a  celebration that started in the 4th Century [IV] in the Southern Levant
>>   [ _a geographical region that corresponds to present-day Israel and Palestine_ ].
>>  
>>  org-mode in emacs will emphasize by underlining geographical detail.  I would like 
>>  to have a way to play down the text rather than emphasizing the text.  It would be 
>>  beneficial to have other bracketing characters for doing the opposite of emphasizing.
>>  
>>  
>>  
>>  
>>  
>>  
>>  
>>  
>>

Re: Playing down the text in org-mode

[Tim Cross]

fatiparty--- via "General discussions about Org-mode." <emacs-orgmode@gnu.org> writes:

> In org-mode one can use the emphasizing tags 
>
> *word*   /word/   _word_
>
> Is there anything to perform the opposite, playing down the text?


No, there are no syntax elements in org mode to do this.

Part of the challenge here is that de-emphasis or 'play down' is not well
defined. Traditionally, I think the way you handled adding text which
was considered important enough to include, but perhaps tangential or
less important was to use a footnote or margin note. The point of
emphasis in text is to draw the readers eye (and attention) to
something. It is difficult to do the opposite. Furthermore, most
techniques used to try and do this really just amount to making the text
harder to read, which doesn't seem very beneficial for those readers who
want that additional information. 

Personally, I prefer footnotes, asides, margin notes over including less
important text within the important text because even if the text is
somehow marked visually to indicate it is less important, I still have
to scan it when reading. A footnote on the other hand tells me there is
additional information available if I want to read it and all I had to
scan was a letter. This is also why I prefer Oxford over Harvard
referencing styles. 

Playing down the text in org-mode

[fatiparty--- via General discussions about Org-mode.]

Jan 14, 2022, 09:27 by theophilusx@gmail.com:

>
> fatiparty--- via "General discussions about Org-mode." <emacs-orgmode@gnu.org> writes:
>
>> In org-mode one can use the emphasizing tags 
>>
>> *word*   /word/   _word_
>>
>> Is there anything to perform the opposite, playing down the text?
>>
>
>
> No, there are no syntax elements in org mode to do this.
>
> Part of the challenge here is that de-emphasis or 'play down' is not well
> defined. Traditionally, I think the way you handled adding text which
> was considered important enough to include, but perhaps tangential or
> less important was to use a footnote or margin note. The point of
> emphasis in text is to draw the readers eye (and attention) to
> something. It is difficult to do the opposite. Furthermore, most
> techniques used to try and do this really just amount to making the text
> harder to read, which doesn't seem very beneficial for those readers who
> want that additional information. 
>

My intention is rather to makes tho text look different from any highlighting
on normal text rather than making it harder to read.  Customarily, I use bold
for all text, making highlighting not standing out much.

I would need the "play down" thing for documentary scripts, so they can
be distinguished from the "line's actor field".  So playing down is not the right
word for this.

I am playing with foreground colours and height, see what happens.
Something similar to footnote perhaps something similar to 

[mg: marginal text here]

With some elisp code to define a face for such occurrence.


> Personally, I prefer footnotes, asides, margin notes over including less
> important text within the important text because even if the text is
> somehow marked visually to indicate it is less important, I still have
> to scan it when reading. A footnote on the other hand tells me there is
> additional information available if I want to read it and all I had to
> scan was a letter. This is also why I prefer Oxford over Harvard
> referencing styles.
>

Playing down the text in org-mode

[fatiparty--- via General discussions about Org-mode.]

Jan 14, 2022, 09:27 by theophilusx@gmail.com:

>
> fatiparty--- via "General discussions about Org-mode." <emacs-orgmode@gnu.org> writes:
>
>> In org-mode one can use the emphasizing tags 
>>
>> *word*   /word/   _word_
>>
>> Is there anything to perform the opposite, playing down the text?
>>
>
>
> No, there are no syntax elements in org mode to do this.
>
> Part of the challenge here is that de-emphasis or 'play down' is not well
> defined. Traditionally, I think the way you handled adding text which
> was considered important enough to include, but perhaps tangential or
> less important was to use a footnote or margin note. The point of
> emphasis in text is to draw the readers eye (and attention) to
> something. It is difficult to do the opposite. Furthermore, most
> techniques used to try and do this really just amount to making the text
> harder to read, which doesn't seem very beneficial for those readers who
> want that additional information. 
>
> Personally, I prefer footnotes, asides, margin notes over including less
> important text within the important text because even if the text is
> somehow marked visually to indicate it is less important, I still have
> to scan it when reading. A footnote on the other hand tells me there is
> additional information available if I want to read it and all I had to
> scan was a letter. This is also why I prefer Oxford over Harvard
> referencing styles.
>
A problem with footnote is that only the [fn:1] gets coloured.  

[fn:1] This is a footnote

Have also noticed that when using comment lines, the comment text does not  
show much difference from normal text when using a dark background.  

# Some details here

On a light background, the text is shown in grey (which helps distinguish text from 
comments, as with programming languages).

Re: Playing down the text in org-mode

[Ihor Radchenko]

fatiparty--- via "General discussions about Org-mode."
<emacs-orgmode@gnu.org> writes:

> A problem with footnote is that only the [fn:1] gets coloured.  
>
> [fn:1] This is a footnote

Are you talking about 1 in footnote¹ being colored when using LaTeX
export? If so, it is a matter of your \hypersetup options.

> Have also noticed that when using comment lines, the comment text does not  
> show much difference from normal text when using a dark background.  
>
> # Some details here
>
> On a light background, the text is shown in grey (which helps distinguish text from 
> comments, as with programming languages).

Are you referring to Org fonts? That totally depends on your theme.

Best,
Ihor

Playing down the text in org-mode

[fatiparty--- via General discussions about Org-mode.]

Jan 14, 2022, 13:55 by yantar92@gmail.com:

> fatiparty--- via "General discussions about Org-mode."
> <emacs-orgmode@gnu.org> writes:
>
>> A problem with footnote is that only the [fn:1] gets coloured.  
>>
>> [fn:1] This is a footnote
>>
>
> Are you talking about 1 in footnote¹ being colored when using LaTeX
> export? If so, it is a matter of your \hypersetup options.
>
At the time I did not know about anonymous and named footnotes.  With these
the text inside [ ] does get coloured as I wished.

>> Have also noticed that when using comment lines, the comment text does not  
>> show much difference from normal text when using a dark background.  
>>
>> # Some details here
>>
>> On a light background, the text is shown in grey (which helps distinguish text from 
>> comments, as with programming languages).
>>
>
> Are you referring to Org fonts? That totally depends on your theme.
>
Will see how to change the colour from my theme then.


> Best,
> Ihor
>

Re: Playing down the text in org-mode

[autofrettage]

Dear all,

I skimmed through most of the answers, so forgive me if the following has already been said.

The question triggers an old LaTeX reflex; If the layout tweak or typography tune turns out to be very difficult to accomplish with LaTeX (including all the mainstream add-ons), then the reason could be that you ask for something which most typographers consider to be a really bad idea.

Maybe I use these options incorrectly, but aren't plain parentheses, '()', and footnotes, the traditional means for adding stuff which the reader can skip? The usual recommendation is to avoid using these tools too much, since they distract.

This said, I would like to mention some old-fashioned typography used in (a reprint of) the sixth edition of "Hydrodynamics" by sir Horace Lamb.

Some stretches of the text in it are printed with smaller font size than the bulk. First I thought these stretches contained background information, elaborations on nitty gritty details, or something of this kind. As this theory wasn't supported by the contents of these harder to read sections, I struggled to come up with a good explanation.

My current guess is that this book was produced so long ago that the publisher and author could not afford the luxury of producing new page breaks for the later editions of the book. In order to fit longer explanations into the narrative, the text just had to shrink a bit. The first edition was published 1879, the sixth 1932, and Knuth was born 5 years later.

Another unusual feature is that the book makes do without figure and table numbers and captions. Each table and figure has been placed "in context", and you will just have to read the text to learn about them.

Cheers
Rasmus

Re: Playing down the text in org-mode

[Eric S Fraga]

On Friday, 14 Jan 2022 at 19:26, autofrettage wrote:
> The question triggers an old LaTeX reflex; If the layout tweak or
> typography tune turns out to be very difficult to accomplish with
> LaTeX (including all the mainstream add-ons), then the reason could be
> that you ask for something which most typographers consider to be a
> really bad idea.

+1

This is something I often have to drum into my students.  If you are
fighting LaTeX, you are probably trying to do something that won't
actually look very good at all.

The problem is that students have been exposed to Word & co. without
using styles, for instance, and think that they have to specify
everything including typefaces, spacing, indents, ...  and, of course,
they know noting about typography.  LaTeX (and org by corollary) does a
very good job with the defaults (including, as you say, the mainstream
add-ons).

-- 
: Eric S Fraga, with org release_9.5.2-306-g9623da in Emacs 29.0.50