NLS/Augment

NLS/Augment

[Steve Quezadas]

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Guys,

This is a slightly offtopic, but I've been using org-mode and I love love
loveit. Was the writing of org-mode related in any way to Douglas
Engelbart's NLS/Augment system? A lot of the features seem to crossover. Or
is this simply coincidence?

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Re: NLS/Augment

[Jean Louis]

* Steve Quezadas <steveeq1@gmail.com> [2019-08-12 05:59]:
> Guys,
> 
> This is a slightly offtopic, but I've been using org-mode and I love love
> loveit. Was the writing of org-mode related in any way to Douglas
> Engelbart's NLS/Augment system? A lot of the features seem to crossover. Or
> is this simply coincidence?

I have been watching the demonstration on these pages:
http://dougengelbart.org/content/view/216/000/#Augment

and videos by Christina Engelbart,
https://www.youtube.com/watch?list=PLCGFadV4FqU15vunAfsTDzeEPnHDaf7n0&v=STRuciV6L38

Org mode look similar to that Augment browser, definitely. With
differences. But it looks as nice information management system.

It would be good that Org mode gets some kind of "buttons follow the
mouse" feature upon turning it on, just as shown on this video:
https://vimeo.com/81238285

as that would then easy mouse actions to open outlines, close
outlines. 

The Augment hierarchy reminds more on Koutline from GNU Hyperbole:
https://www.gnu.org/software/hyperbole/ and <links> remind more to
Hyperbole type of explicit buttons, which can be used together with
Org mode.

As I understand Internet and hyperlinks owe much to Doug Engelbert, as
he apparently invented many computing features that we use today.

HyperScope is free software that works in browsers:
http://hyperscope.org/


Jean

Re: NLS/Augment

[John Kitchin]

Jean Louis <bugs@gnu.support> writes:

> * Steve Quezadas <steveeq1@gmail.com> [2019-08-12 05:59]:
>> Guys,
>>
>> This is a slightly offtopic, but I've been using org-mode and I love love
>> loveit. Was the writing of org-mode related in any way to Douglas
>> Engelbart's NLS/Augment system? A lot of the features seem to crossover. Or
>> is this simply coincidence?
>
> I have been watching the demonstration on these pages:
> http://dougengelbart.org/content/view/216/000/#Augment
>
> and videos by Christina Engelbart,
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?list=PLCGFadV4FqU15vunAfsTDzeEPnHDaf7n0&v=STRuciV6L38
>
> Org mode look similar to that Augment browser, definitely. With
> differences. But it looks as nice information management system.
>
> It would be good that Org mode gets some kind of "buttons follow the
> mouse" feature upon turning it on, just as shown on this video:
> https://vimeo.com/81238285
>

I think (require 'org-mouse) provides lots of mouse support for
opening/closing outlines, checking/unchecking checkboxes, etc.

> as that would then easy mouse actions to open outlines, close
> outlines.
>
> The Augment hierarchy reminds more on Koutline from GNU Hyperbole:
> https://www.gnu.org/software/hyperbole/ and <links> remind more to
> Hyperbole type of explicit buttons, which can be used together with
> Org mode.
>
> As I understand Internet and hyperlinks owe much to Doug Engelbert, as
> he apparently invented many computing features that we use today.
>
> HyperScope is free software that works in browsers:
> http://hyperscope.org/
>
>
> Jean


--
Professor John Kitchin
Doherty Hall A207F
Department of Chemical Engineering
Carnegie Mellon University
Pittsburgh, PA 15213
412-268-7803
@johnkitchin
http://kitchingroup.cheme.cmu.edu

Re: NLS/Augment

[Jean Louis]

* John Kitchin <jkitchin@andrew.cmu.edu> [2019-08-12 15:05]:
> 
> Jean Louis <bugs@gnu.support> writes:
> 
> > * Steve Quezadas <steveeq1@gmail.com> [2019-08-12 05:59]:
> >> Guys,
> >>
> >> This is a slightly offtopic, but I've been using org-mode and I love love
> >> loveit. Was the writing of org-mode related in any way to Douglas
> >> Engelbart's NLS/Augment system? A lot of the features seem to crossover. Or
> >> is this simply coincidence?
> >
> > I have been watching the demonstration on these pages:
> > http://dougengelbart.org/content/view/216/000/#Augment
> >
> > and videos by Christina Engelbart,
> > https://www.youtube.com/watch?list=PLCGFadV4FqU15vunAfsTDzeEPnHDaf7n0&v=STRuciV6L38
> >
> > Org mode look similar to that Augment browser, definitely. With
> > differences. But it looks as nice information management system.
> >
> > It would be good that Org mode gets some kind of buttons follow the
> > mouse feature upon turning it on, just as shown on this video:
> > https://vimeo.com/81238285
> >
> 
> I think (require 'org-mouse) provides lots of mouse support for
> opening/closing outlines, checking/unchecking checkboxes, etc.

I have tried it, but it does not turn on at all times. Documentation
is vague. It is unclear how should it turn on.

Jean

Re: NLS/Augment

[John Kitchin]

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strange. It has always worked fine for me. It turns out in the long run I
don't use it much, C-c C-c does the same thing on check boxes, and speed
commands on headings end up being easier to use for me.  YMMV of course.

John

-----------------------------------
Professor John Kitchin
Doherty Hall A207F
Department of Chemical Engineering
Carnegie Mellon University
Pittsburgh, PA 15213
412-268-7803
@johnkitchin
http://kitchingroup.cheme.cmu.edu



On Wed, Aug 14, 2019 at 9:35 AM Jean Louis <bugs@gnu.support> wrote:

> * John Kitchin <jkitchin@andrew.cmu.edu> [2019-08-12 15:05]:
> >
> > Jean Louis <bugs@gnu.support> writes:
> >
> > > * Steve Quezadas <steveeq1@gmail.com> [2019-08-12 05:59]:
> > >> Guys,
> > >>
> > >> This is a slightly offtopic, but I've been using org-mode and I love
> love
> > >> loveit. Was the writing of org-mode related in any way to Douglas
> > >> Engelbart's NLS/Augment system? A lot of the features seem to
> crossover. Or
> > >> is this simply coincidence?
> > >
> > > I have been watching the demonstration on these pages:
> > > http://dougengelbart.org/content/view/216/000/#Augment
> > >
> > > and videos by Christina Engelbart,
> > >
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?list=PLCGFadV4FqU15vunAfsTDzeEPnHDaf7n0&v=STRuciV6L38
> > >
> > > Org mode look similar to that Augment browser, definitely. With
> > > differences. But it looks as nice information management system.
> > >
> > > It would be good that Org mode gets some kind of buttons follow the
> > > mouse feature upon turning it on, just as shown on this video:
> > > https://vimeo.com/81238285
> > >
> >
> > I think (require 'org-mouse) provides lots of mouse support for
> > opening/closing outlines, checking/unchecking checkboxes, etc.
>
> I have tried it, but it does not turn on at all times. Documentation
> is vague. It is unclear how should it turn on.
>
> Jean
>

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Re: NLS/Augment

[Jean Louis]

* John Kitchin <jkitchin@andrew.cmu.edu> [2019-08-14 15:53]:
> strange. It has always worked fine for me. It turns out in the long run I
> don't use it much, C-c C-c does the same thing on check boxes, and speed
> commands on headings end up being easier to use for me.  YMMV of course.

Please tell me how do you use it? How do you invoke mouse to work in
Org mode?

I do this:

emacs -Q

in scratch:

(require 'org-mouse)

Then I open Org file, nothing I can see nor change with mouse.

So tell me how do you do it that it works.

Thank you,
Jean

Re: NLS/Augment

[John Kitchin]

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That is the right thing to do I think.  The only differences you should see
is when the mouse pointer is over a star in a headline, it should highlight
with a mouse face, and if you click on the highlighted region it should
cycle the headline open and closed. Similarly, the [ ] in a checkbox should
get highlighted, and if you click on it, it should toggle its state. There
might also be some right click menus.


John

-----------------------------------
Professor John Kitchin
Doherty Hall A207F
Department of Chemical Engineering
Carnegie Mellon University
Pittsburgh, PA 15213
412-268-7803
@johnkitchin
http://kitchingroup.cheme.cmu.edu



On Fri, Aug 16, 2019 at 10:05 AM Jean Louis <bugs@gnu.support> wrote:

> * John Kitchin <jkitchin@andrew.cmu.edu> [2019-08-14 15:53]:
> > strange. It has always worked fine for me. It turns out in the long run I
> > don't use it much, C-c C-c does the same thing on check boxes, and speed
> > commands on headings end up being easier to use for me.  YMMV of course.
>
> Please tell me how do you use it? How do you invoke mouse to work in
> Org mode?
>
> I do this:
>
> emacs -Q
>
> in scratch:
>
> (require 'org-mouse)
>
> Then I open Org file, nothing I can see nor change with mouse.
>
> So tell me how do you do it that it works.
>
> Thank you,
> Jean
>

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Re: NLS/Augment

[Jean Louis]

* John Kitchin <jkitchin@andrew.cmu.edu> [2019-08-16 16:15]:
> That is the right thing to do I think.  The only differences you
> should see is when the mouse pointer is over a star in a headline,
> it should highlight with a mouse face, and if you click on the
> highlighted region it should cycle the headline open and
> closed. Similarly, the [ ] in a checkbox should get highlighted, and
> if you click on it, it should toggle its state. There might also be
> some right click menus.

Now I got it, thank you.

Yes, it is good this way, at least for start.

I just wish Emacs would have the entry to structural and organized
information as Doug Engelbart envisioned it. There are many functions
for that, scattered around, not yet integrated.

Mouse is explained in Org documentation. But so short that common man
cannot quite find it.

Only this:
==========
To toggle a checkbox, use ‘C-c C-c’, or use
the mouse (thanks to Piotr Zielinski’s ‘org-mouse.el’).

and

• Piotr Zielinski wrote ‘org-mouse.el’, proposed agenda blocks and
  contributed various ideas and code snippets.

that is scarce description. In fact it should be enabled by default or
exist in menu to be toggled.

Emacs has all capabilities for information management system, and yet
we are so far from what Doug Engelbart[1] envisioned 50 years ago.

Jean


Footnotes:
[1]  http://www.dougengelbart.org/templates/bootstrap_template/images/bootstrap-alliance-2.jpg

Re: NLS/Augment

[Samuel Wales]

org-mouse works well for me and i depend on it frequently.

the main thing i am missing in it is the ability to select a todo kw
for a header.

i use require.  i never understood modules or their purpose.

-- 
The Kafka Pandemic

What is misopathy?
https://thekafkapandemic.blogspot.com/2013/10/why-some-diseases-are-wronged.html

The disease DOES progress. MANY people have died from it. And ANYBODY
can get it at any time.

Re: NLS/Augment

[Jean Louis]

* Samuel Wales <samologist@gmail.com> [2019-08-14 21:57]:
> org-mouse works well for me and i depend on it frequently.
> 
> the main thing i am missing in it is the ability to select a todo kw
> for a header.
> 
> i use require.  i never understood modules or their purpose.

I would like to know if Carsten Dominik came up with idea by knowing
about Doug Engelbart?

Jean

Re: NLS/Augment

[Carsten Dominik]

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On Fri, Aug 16, 2019 at 4:59 PM Jean Louis <bugs@gnu.support> wrote:

> * Samuel Wales <samologist@gmail.com> [2019-08-14 21:57]:
> > org-mouse works well for me and i depend on it frequently.
> >
> > the main thing i am missing in it is the ability to select a todo kw
> > for a header.
> >
> > i use require.  i never understood modules or their purpose.
>

Yes, not sure if modules was a good idea.  I wanted a clickable list of
stuff
 to add, because the parts became so many.  Require is a fine replacement.


> I would like to know if Carsten Dominik came up with idea by knowing
> about Doug Engelbart?
>

Do you mean with Org-mode in general?  No, I learned about Engelbart later
and was amazed.

Carsten

>
> Jean
>
>

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Re: NLS/Augment

[Jean Louis]

* Carsten Dominik <dominik@uva.nl> [2019-08-16 23:13]:
> > I would like to know if Carsten Dominik came up with idea by
> > knowing about Doug Engelbart?
> >
> 
> Do you mean with Org-mode in general?  No, I learned about Engelbart
> later and was amazed.
> 
> Carsten

Thanks, good to know if you had inspiration by Engelbart.
Jean

Re: NLS/Augment

[Adam Porter]

Thanks for sharing those links, those videos are fascinating.  It's
amazing how much some of what he demonstrates resembles features in Org
and Emacs, and even surpasses them, over 50 years ago!  Even the
presentation itself, with picture-in-picture videoconferencing with
screen sharing, surpasses most conference presentations on YouTube!

Re: NLS/Augment

[Jean Louis]

* Adam Porter <adam@alphapapa.net> [2019-08-12 21:50]:
> Thanks for sharing those links, those videos are fascinating.  It's
> amazing how much some of what he demonstrates resembles features in Org
> and Emacs, and even surpasses them, over 50 years ago!  Even the
> presentation itself, with picture-in-picture videoconferencing with
> screen sharing, surpasses most conference presentations on YouTube!

I am glad to have found that information as it clarifies what means
Internet as from its beginnings. That is definitely the first thing to
teach in computer classes when mentioning Internet.

It is also sad state that for long time the concepts were not
available to people and still are not.

The file system concept is somehow unintentionally or intentionally
hidden to common people. It is a hierarchy, a data tree, that is well
suitable for nice sorting of files, but how to sort files really is
not well explained, it is somehow lacking. For example there is not
example concept given in books or instructions of operating systems
on how to keep files. I think it would be beneficial.

So is the concept of hierarchical data management or structured data
management.

And I remember the concept of entering the links and menus already
from the BBS[1], and I do not know why and how, I remember being
isolated in former Yugoslavia, without any contact to Internet or
outside knowledge, and we were making similar menus like on the demo
of Douglas Engelbart[2] on our small replicas of TRS-80 computers.

Video conferencing is quite a large need and have been shown in movies
so many times, but is still not developed and not in use by large. Sad
situation, I was really expecting much more from the 21st century,
about 50 years after the inventions of Douglas Engelbart.

Org mode is a simple way by which one can build such augmented
information systems. But it is not as integrated.

Look at "What it offered"[3]:
> Doug's lab pioneered progressive work processes while using each
> successive version of NLS/Augment for all its own knowledge work,
> from drafting, publishing, email, shared screen collaborative
> viewing and editing

There are packages and possibilities for shared screen and
collaborative viewing, publishing on Internet and editing. I am not
sure if this is really demanded overall. But in one way or other we
have it in GNU Emacs.

GNU Emacs basically became what NLS/Augment offered and what Douglas
Engelbart envisioned

> document cataloging

Not sure about that, but software tools exist for this, maybe one such
is Orgadoc[4], and document indexers also exist. However, not well
integrated and not easily accessible to population.

> project management

We are lucky that Org mode offers project management features provided
the user knows how to start and where to start. But what about the
population? Project management shall be introduced in my opinion by
every operating system.

In fact every operating system shall be given to user with one or
other similar information management package.

For my biased needs it would be best to improve the GNU Emacs to the
level that it can boot and then offer to users options to launch other
software. 

> shared address book,

I guess that LDAP[5] and various CRM[6] related software do offer such
possibilites. We still do not have such options from GNU Emacs, I wish
we would. It is necessary for any larger organization or remote work
stations to have some kind of centralized database from which access
to shared address book would be possible.

I guess this can be easily implemented in GNU Emacs by creating an SQL
database to which Emacs work stations could gain the access.

Of course there would be no need for slow motion browsers.

> all source code development and maintenance

This we surely have within Emacs

> -- all in an integrated hyper groupware environment filled with
> special features for high performance work.

Emacs has this pretty much, but not as much as I would wish and
like. Hyperlinking is important feature. We cannot just link
everything in Emacs. GNU Hyperbole[7] have given the concept of
linking to many information references, but it is not as polished and
not as easy to go for common man.

> For example, you can create a link to any paragraph or line of code
> or email paragraph

That would be great. I need this feature, this would be so useful. It
should not matter which type of file it is. Not just Org files, it
should work like Hyperbole on many other files. 

> you can see when paragraphs and lines of code were last edited and
> by whom

Version control systems exist, we have this.

> and even view a file filtered by author since a certain date and
> time (as in why doesn't the code work this morning, let's see who
> was in there changing what when!)

This can be known today by using version control systems, including
file system ownership.

> you can browse with outline views,

Many outlines modes exist in GNU Emacs. Org mode is one of them. I
wish Org could have some more features from the Cherrytree[8], yet
both are doing very nice. Koutliner[9] is GNU Hyperbole way for
outline view of information, which may link to all kinds of documents
and provide similar NLS/Augment features.

> drill down into the structure of a document or source code and fly
> around with a number of precision browsing features and custom
> viewing features, and edit the structure as well as the text, within
> and across files and application domains.

This we surely have with the GNU Emacs.

But hey, we are re-discovering what was known and discovered 50 years
ago. And we get so much excited.

So why nobody teach the basics of NLS/Augment concepts when computer
is started?

Is entertainment more important for our civilization or learning how
to organize ourselves?

Is it intentional that we are moved away from efficient computer
usage?

Jean 

Footnotes: [1] Bulletin Board Systems

[2]  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Douglas_Engelbart

[3]  http://www.dougengelbart.org/content/view/155/87/

[4]  https://www.gnu.org/software/orgadoc/

[5]  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lightweight_Directory_Access_Protocol

[6]  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Customer_relationship_management

[7]  https://www.gnu.org/software/hyperbole/

[8]  https://www.giuspen.com/cherrytree/

[9]  https://www.gnu.org/software/hyperbole/koutline-example.html

Re: NLS/Augment

[Samuel Wales]

a playwright once had a line like "The reasonable man adapts himself
to the world; the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the
world to himself. Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable
man".

there are not many unreasonable men of the right kind (englebart
perhaps), too many of the wrong kind, and too many reasonable men who
don't realize the need to become unreasonable until it has become too
late for them, even them personally.

that last one is why mass human rights violations sneak up on
populations and are rejected out of hand until it is too late, and,
imo trivially, why computers interfaces in the broad sense are dumb.

i don't think there is any intent behind computer dumbness except get
it out the door.  the dbas of the past could have had no intent to
create the y2k problem, just to save space.  and with that i am out of
this ot discussion :).

-- 
The Kafka Pandemic

What is misopathy?
https://thekafkapandemic.blogspot.com/2013/10/why-some-diseases-are-wronged.html

The disease DOES progress. MANY people have died from it. And ANYBODY
can get it at any time.

Re: NLS/Augment

[Fraga, Eric]

On Tuesday, 13 Aug 2019 at 20:39, Jean Louis wrote:

[...]

> So is the concept of hierarchical data management or structured data
> management.

You might be interested in reading about Plan 9: https://9p.io/plan9/

-- 
Eric S Fraga via Emacs 27.0.50, Org release_9.2.4-401-gfabd6d

Re: NLS/Augment

[Jean Louis]

* Fraga <Fraga> [2019-08-20 11:33]:
> On Tuesday, 13 Aug 2019 at 20:39, Jean Louis wrote:
> 
> [...]
> 
> > So is the concept of hierarchical data management or structured data
> > management.
> 
> You might be interested in reading about Plan 9: https://9p.io/plan9/

Plan 9 I heard of since longer, great concepts of integration. In the
beginning it was proprietary software, I have no tolerance to that.

And it probably does not run Emacs... I would lose the present
integration.

Jean