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From: Denis Maier <denismaier@mailbox.org>
To: "Bruce D'Arcus" <bdarcus@gmail.com>,
	"András Simonyi" <andras.simonyi@gmail.com>,
	"emacs-orgmode@gnu.org" <emacs-orgmode@gnu.org>
Subject: Re: wip-cite status question and feedback
Date: Mon, 26 Apr 2021 22:35:07 +0200	[thread overview]
Message-ID: <aaa5faa0-11a9-5409-4864-37f21a57e61c@mailbox.org> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <CAF-FPGMda_Z_fHVcAp6m5sr6XyAh5dOk73QRWZ6Y2vO8f7W7QQ@mail.gmail.com>

Am 26.04.2021 um 16:54 schrieb Bruce D'Arcus:
> I had an idea on this, though it may not be a good one ...
> 
> On Sat, Apr 24, 2021 at 2:39 PM Bruce D'Arcus <bdarcus@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> On Sat, Apr 24, 2021 at 1:47 PM Nicolas Goaziou <mail@nicolasgoaziou.fr> wrote:
>>>
>>> Hello,
>>>
>>> "Bruce D'Arcus" <bdarcus@gmail.com> writes:
>>>
>>>> Some sentence with a concluding citation [cite:@key].
>>>>
>>>> ... that should end up like this:
>>>>
>>>> Some sentence with a concluding citation.[1]
>>>>
>>>> Aside: looking through the CSL spec, it doesn't seem this is
>>>> documented. It obviously should be.
>>>>
>>>> And I don't remember if that convention is locale-specific; e.g. if
>>>> while that's the standard in English, it could be different in France.
>>>>
>>>> In any case, this sort of punctuation modification should be possible.
>>>
>>> Could you show more example of this, possibly including quotes the
>>> citation, or better, a precise description of the punctuation
>>> modification you have in mind?
>>
>> Yes.
>>
>> Denis lays it out in this comment:
>>
>> https://github.com/citation-style-language/documentation/issues/139#issuecomment-825934813
>>
>> What he's arguing is that the rules vary by locale, with German, for
>> example (he's employed at a Swiss-German institution, I believe),
>> having different conventions than English, and American English
>> different than British English.
>>
>> But an example from American English for illustration, derived from
>> Denis' examples.
>>
>> "A simple quote" [cite:@doe].
>>
>> When rendered, that should be this in an author-date style:
>>
>> "A simple quote" (Doe 2021).
>>
>> ... and this in a note style:
>>
>> "A simple quote."[^1]
>>
>> So that rule would suggest something like:
>>
>> - if a citation concludes a sentence, move the note mark and whatever
>> trailing quotation mark, outside the period.
>>
>> But, Denis continues, "While this is perfectly acceptable in American
>> English, it is not in German, or even in British English. Here we have
>> to know whether the final period is part of the original quotation. If
>> yes, it will be put inside the quotes, otherwise outside." I'll paste
>> the rest of his examples at the end.
>>
>> It's possible his rule here is more general, and would still be
>> acceptable in American English.
> 
> The idea is this: make use of a "quote" style and abuse the item
> prefix for the quote content?
> 
> So using his example:
> 
> [cite/quote:;A simple quote. @doe20]
> 
> A processor could then know the citation is associated with a quote
> that ends a sentence, vs (note missing period):
> 
> [cite/quote:;A simple quote @doe20]
> 
> ... and then more easily adjust accordingly, without needing to know
> anything about the surrounding punctuation.
> 
> Does that make sense?

Reminds me a bit of how the latex csquotes package works, which is often 
used together with biblatex, it even was developped by the original 
biblatex author before he mysteriously disappeared about a decade ago.

In addition to simple commands like \enquote{something} that simply 
render the argument in quotes this package also has more complex 
commands such as \textcquote or blockcquote. With these commands you can 
combine a quotation with a citation:
\textcquote[〈prenote〉][〈postnote〉]{〈key〉}[〈punct〉]{〈text〉} 
〈tpunct〉

\textcquote[45]{doe}[.]{This is the quotation}
Note the punctuation of the original quote is included in a special 
argument in brackets.
If the period weren't part of the quotation, you'd simply do:
\textcquote[45]{doe}{This is the quotation}.

Regarding the proposal: I think that could go in the right direction, 
but in the current form it has the downside that you can't use the 
prefix anymore, right? What about keeping this separate, like so:

[quote: A simple quote.][cite: @doe p. 45]

But maybe even that is not necessary, and there might be simpler ways.

WDYT?

Denis








  reply	other threads:[~2021-04-26 20:36 UTC|newest]

Thread overview: 139+ messages / expand[flat|nested]  mbox.gz  Atom feed  top
2020-04-07 15:15 Bruce D'Arcus
2020-04-07 17:51 ` Nicolas Goaziou
2020-04-07 18:27   ` Bruce D'Arcus
2020-04-07 18:31     ` Bruce D'Arcus
2020-04-07 21:13     ` Joost Kremers
2020-04-08  0:01       ` Bruce D'Arcus
2020-04-08  9:16         ` Joost Kremers
2020-04-08  9:32     ` Nicolas Goaziou
2020-04-08 12:19       ` Bruce D'Arcus
2020-04-08 13:39         ` John Kitchin
2020-04-08 16:12           ` Bruce D'Arcus
2020-04-09  7:38         ` Albert Krewinkel
2020-04-09  9:30           ` Bruce D'Arcus
2020-04-09  9:46             ` Bruce D'Arcus
2020-04-09 10:05               ` Bruce D'Arcus
2020-04-09 23:17                 ` Nicolas Goaziou
2020-04-10  1:17                   ` Bruce D'Arcus
2020-04-10  5:38             ` Albert Krewinkel
2020-04-11 11:41       ` Bruce D'Arcus
2020-04-13 12:05       ` Gustav Wikström
2020-04-13 12:33         ` Bruce D'Arcus
2020-05-24 12:12           ` Bastien
2020-05-24 13:17             ` Bruce D'Arcus
2020-05-29 21:59               ` András Simonyi
2020-05-29 22:24                 ` Bruce D'Arcus
2020-05-29 22:58                 ` Bruce D'Arcus
2020-06-03 14:40                   ` Bastien
2020-06-03 14:53                     ` Bruce D'Arcus
2020-12-14 21:24                       ` Bruce D'Arcus
2021-03-24 13:22                       ` Bruce D'Arcus
2021-03-24 18:27                         ` M. ‘quintus’ Gülker
2021-04-11 23:15                           ` Bruce D'Arcus
2021-04-12 13:19                             ` Nicolas Goaziou
2021-04-12 18:53                               ` András Simonyi
2021-04-16 17:05                               ` András Simonyi
2021-04-16 17:23                                 ` Bruce D'Arcus
2021-04-18 13:11                                 ` Nicolas Goaziou
2021-04-18 13:35                                   ` Ihor Radchenko
2021-04-18 13:37                                     ` Bruce D'Arcus
2021-04-21 19:57                                     ` John Kitchin
2021-04-21 20:09                                       ` Bruce D'Arcus
2021-04-21 20:57                                         ` John Kitchin
2021-04-21 20:26                                   ` John Kitchin
2021-04-21 20:54                                     ` Bruce D'Arcus
2021-04-22  2:47                                     ` Timothy
2021-04-22 12:07                                       ` Bruce D'Arcus
2021-04-22 12:34                                         ` Timothy
2021-04-21 21:47                                   ` András Simonyi
2021-04-21 23:51                                     ` Nicolas Goaziou
2021-04-22  0:01                                       ` Bruce D'Arcus
2021-04-22  0:15                                         ` Nicolas Goaziou
2021-04-23 11:49                                           ` Nicolas Goaziou
2021-04-23 12:55                                             ` András Simonyi
2021-04-23 13:10                                               ` Bruce D'Arcus
2021-04-23 13:24                                                 ` Bruce D'Arcus
2021-04-23 14:50                                                   ` András Simonyi
2021-04-23 22:08                                                   ` Bruce D'Arcus
2021-04-24 17:37                                                   ` M. ‘quintus’ Gülker
2021-04-24 17:47                                                   ` Nicolas Goaziou
2021-04-24 18:39                                                     ` Bruce D'Arcus
2021-04-26 14:54                                                       ` Bruce D'Arcus
2021-04-26 20:35                                                         ` Denis Maier [this message]
2021-04-27 10:12                                                           ` Bruce D'Arcus
2021-04-27 10:20                                                             ` Timothy
2021-04-27 11:44                                                             ` Denis Maier
2021-04-27 12:32                                                               ` Bruce D'Arcus
2021-04-27 13:58                                                                 ` Denis Maier
2021-04-27 14:07                                                                   ` Bruce D'Arcus
2021-04-27 14:50                                                                     ` Denis Maier
2021-04-30 13:28                                                       ` Nicolas Goaziou
2021-04-30 21:47                                                         ` Denis Maier
2021-05-01 11:09                                                           ` Nicolas Goaziou
2021-05-01 13:26                                                           ` Bruce D'Arcus
2021-05-02 21:58                                                             ` Denis Maier
2021-05-02 22:18                                                               ` Bruce D'Arcus
2021-05-02 23:30                                                                 ` Bruce D'Arcus
2021-05-05 13:46                                                                 ` Bruce D'Arcus
2021-05-05 18:14                                                                   ` M. ‘quintus’ Gülker
2021-05-05 18:27                                                                     ` Bruce D'Arcus
2021-05-06 17:05                                                                       ` M. ‘quintus’ Gülker
2021-05-06  8:08                                                                     ` Denis Maier
2021-04-24 13:14                                               ` Nicolas Goaziou
2021-04-23 12:03                                     ` Nicolas Goaziou
2021-04-23 13:34                                       ` András Simonyi
2021-04-17 19:13                               ` M. ‘quintus’ Gülker
2021-04-18 16:17                                 ` Nicolas Goaziou
2021-04-20 13:32                                   ` Matt Price
2021-04-21 17:07                                     ` Nicolas Goaziou
2021-04-21 17:53                                       ` Bruce D'Arcus
2020-04-10  9:29 denis.maier.lists
2020-04-10 12:22 ` Bruce D'Arcus
2020-04-10 22:56 ` Nicolas Goaziou
2020-04-11 21:42   ` denis.maier.lists
2020-04-11 22:05     ` Bruce D'Arcus
2020-04-12 10:38       ` Nicolas Goaziou
2020-04-12 11:15         ` Bruce D'Arcus
2020-04-12 14:02           ` Nicolas Goaziou
2020-04-12 14:25             ` Bruce D'Arcus
2020-04-12 15:32               ` Nicolas Goaziou
2020-04-12 15:44                 ` Bruce D'Arcus
2020-04-12 15:57                   ` Nicolas Goaziou
2020-04-12 17:17                     ` Bruce D'Arcus
2020-04-12 20:49                 ` denis.maier.lists
2020-04-12 22:19                   ` Nicolas Goaziou
2020-04-13  8:33                     ` Stefan Nobis
2020-04-13 10:02                       ` Denis Maier
2020-04-13 10:11                         ` denis.maier.lists
2020-04-13 10:05                       ` Bruce D'Arcus
2020-04-13 10:14                       ` denis.maier.lists
2020-04-13  9:58                     ` Bruce D'Arcus
2020-04-13 10:09                     ` denis.maier.lists
2020-04-13 10:10                     ` Joost Kremers
2020-04-13 10:46                       ` Stefan Nobis
2020-04-15  5:54                       ` Richard Lawrence
2020-04-15 10:07                         ` Joost Kremers
2020-04-18  9:34                           ` Richard Lawrence
2020-04-18 10:56                         ` Bruce D'Arcus
2020-04-18 12:48                           ` Richard Lawrence
2020-04-18 13:17                             ` Bruce D'Arcus
2020-04-18 13:22                               ` Bruce D'Arcus
2020-04-18 20:23                                 ` Denis Maier
2020-04-18 20:28                                 ` denis.maier.lists
2020-04-19  9:11                               ` Richard Lawrence
2020-04-25 16:19                                 ` Nicolas Goaziou
2020-04-25 17:00                                   ` Bruce D'Arcus
2020-04-25 20:03                                     ` Nicolas Goaziou
2020-04-25 21:18                                       ` Bruce D'Arcus
2020-05-01 17:38                                         ` Richard Lawrence
2020-05-01 17:54                                           ` Bruce D'Arcus
2020-05-02 14:06                                             ` Nicolas Goaziou
     [not found]                                               ` <2fbf14cf-ae8c-4f7c-27f7-33771aa99492@mailbox.org>
2020-05-02 16:34                                                 ` Nicolas Goaziou
2020-05-02 17:24                                                   ` Denis Maier
2020-05-02 13:13                                           ` Nicolas Goaziou
2020-05-02 13:45                                             ` Bruce D'Arcus
2020-05-02 20:45                                             ` Richard Lawrence
2020-04-29  9:14                                   ` Denis Maier
2020-05-02  9:51                                     ` Nicolas Goaziou
2020-05-02 11:53                                       ` Bruce D'Arcus
2020-04-18 20:38                           ` Joost Kremers

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