From: "Bruce D'Arcus" <bdarcus@gmail.com>
To: "Bruce D'Arcus" <bdarcus@gmail.com>, emacs-orgmode@gnu.org
Subject: Re: wip-cite status question and feedback
Date: Tue, 7 Apr 2020 14:31:53 -0400 [thread overview]
Message-ID: <CAF-FPGMeQN_XW=0MYOLLrmscaB7Op4kr9BVqx3d4EkH=rwD7zw@mail.gmail.com> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <CAF-FPGNVdaCvbREc46hr9Ky2K5s3m8obSD-=_D4hWSCR3jG3ww@mail.gmail.com>
Sorry for the typos, and also a more important mistake: a didn't mean
citeproc-hs, but citeproc-rs.
https://github.com/cormacrelf/citeproc-rs
On Tue, Apr 7, 2020 at 2:27 PM Bruce D'Arcus <bdarcus@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Thank you for this thorough reply, Nicholas!
>
> See below.
>
> On Tue, Apr 7, 2020 at 1:51 PM Nicolas Goaziou <mail@nicolasgoaziou.fr> wrote:
> >
> > Hello,
> >
> > "Bruce D'Arcus" <bdarcus@gmail.com> writes:
> >
> > > Hi everyone; first post.
> >
> > Welcome!
> >
> > > I see from the archive there was an encouraging thread from April of 2018
> > > <https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/emacs-orgmode/2018-04/msg00336.html>
> > > (so, two years ago) that seemed to suggest merging to master was close,
> > > with perhaps some uncertainty around syntax being the primary hold up?
> > >
> > > My main question: how do we get this done?
> >
> > Good question. I don't think syntax is the primary hold up. It seems to
> > me that the glue part between the parser and the export back-ends is
> > missing. If we merge wip-cite branch in master, where do we plug it? How
> > do Org folks use it, out of the box? It also need tooling. For example,
> > citations could be a link to a database.
>
> OK, gotcha. That does explain the "hold up."
>
> I'll come back to this below, but for now simply say that ideal would
> probably be a default formatting library and database, with room to
> replace with other options.
>
> For the database, it would make to do as existing tools do; allow
> users to define default bib(la)tex files.
>
> [snip]
>
> > Actually, barring the "cite:" prefix, you can use the exact same syntax
> > as Pandoc, i.e.:
> >
> > [cite:see @doe99, pp. 33-35; also @smith04, chap. 1]
> > [cite:@doe99, pp. 33-35, 38-39 and *passim*]
> > [cite:@smith04; @doe99]
> >
> > Only the semicolon is meaningful in there, not the commas. Also, for
> > readability, spacing after the "cite:" prefix is ignored, so one can
> > write, e.g.,
> >
> > [cite: see @doe99, pp. 33-35; also @smith04, chap. 1]
>
> OK, that's good.
>
> Note that in CSL processors, the locators are meaningful key-values,
> basically; not plain text strings.
>
> This is because different citation styles have different requirements
> for rendering them.
>
> Description from the spec:
>
> a cite-specific pinpointer within the item (e.g. a page number within
> a book, or a volume in a multi-volume work). Must be accompanied in
> the input data by a label indicating the locator type (see the
> Locators term list), which determines which term is rendered by
> cs:label when the “locator” variable is selected.
>
> And this is the list of CSL locators keys:
>
> http://docs.citationstyles.org/en/stable/specification.html#locators
>
> > > Or the first one might treat the “see” as a prefix for the list, though I’m
> > > not sure what the practical benefit of that more hierarchical modelling is.
> >
> > No, IIRC, the common prefix is the part before the first semicolon, but
> > only if that part contains no citation key. IOW, in the example above,
> > "see " is the prefix of the first citation reference, not a global
> > prefix.
> >
> > > While I do wonder if the syntax could be simplified, my main hope is that
> > > it actually gets merged to master and deployed, to harmonize the variety of
> > > different ways emacs tools (org-ref, ebib, pandoc, etc.) are dealing with
> > > citation links in org currently.
> >
> > If the syntax is practical, we could merge it, yes. Maybe that's the way
> > forward, after all. But then? What library is going to use it?
> >
> > Org Ref is well established and is unlikely to switch to the new syntax.
> > It would be nice if both syntax could converge at some point, though.
> > The point of the new syntax is to make it easier for this kind of
> > extension.
>
> While I of course can't speak for John, I would hope and expect org
> ref to support the new syntax.
>
> I would hope and expect the same of other packages (like ebib) that
> use their own custom syntax.
>
> > "citeproc-el" is not included in Emacs, so integrating "citeproc-org" in
> > Org may not be helpful at this point. Since Org is bundled with Emacs,
> > it cannot use external libraries.
>
> I hadn't considered that.
>
> I'm thinking two options:
>
> 1. just have a super simple citation export formatter, with (per
> above) room to configure an external one
>
> 2. while I don't know its status, include citeproc-org in org and emacs
>
> I'd say if citeproc-org is far along and free of substantial bugs, 2
> might make sense. I am, of course, biased, but CSL's been widely
> deployed in the wild for more than a decade, and there are thousands
> of available styles.
>
> Otherwise, and more likely, 1 would be the best path; users get basic
> output formatting for citations, but then can plug in more elaborate
> tools (citeproc-org, citeproc-hs*, etc.) if they need them.
>
> Obviously, if a user is exporting to LaTeX, the formatting is
> straightforward, because you're just exporting to the latex cite code,
> as pandoc does (though it also has an option to use citeproc to
> produce "cooked" formatted output in latex).
>
> For HTML, the output doesn't need to be anything fancy.
>
> So the #1 path is the more iterative approach to implementing the functionality.
>
> WDY about that?
>
> Bruce
>
> * citeproc-hs is a newer effort, funded by zotero, to create a very
> high performance, fully compliant, CSL implementation, that is easy to
> embed and use pretty much anywhere; I haven't checked on the status
> recently, but I'm optimistic this will be the best option long-term
>
> Bruce
next prev parent reply other threads:[~2020-04-07 18:32 UTC|newest]
Thread overview: 139+ messages / expand[flat|nested] mbox.gz Atom feed top
2020-04-07 15:15 wip-cite status question and feedback Bruce D'Arcus
2020-04-07 17:51 ` Nicolas Goaziou
2020-04-07 18:27 ` Bruce D'Arcus
2020-04-07 18:31 ` Bruce D'Arcus [this message]
2020-04-07 21:13 ` Joost Kremers
2020-04-08 0:01 ` Bruce D'Arcus
2020-04-08 9:16 ` Joost Kremers
2020-04-08 9:32 ` Nicolas Goaziou
2020-04-08 12:19 ` Bruce D'Arcus
2020-04-08 13:39 ` John Kitchin
2020-04-08 16:12 ` Bruce D'Arcus
2020-04-09 7:38 ` Albert Krewinkel
2020-04-09 9:30 ` Bruce D'Arcus
2020-04-09 9:46 ` Bruce D'Arcus
2020-04-09 10:05 ` Bruce D'Arcus
2020-04-09 23:17 ` Nicolas Goaziou
2020-04-10 1:17 ` Bruce D'Arcus
2020-04-10 5:38 ` Albert Krewinkel
2020-04-11 11:41 ` Bruce D'Arcus
2020-04-13 12:05 ` Gustav Wikström
2020-04-13 12:33 ` Bruce D'Arcus
2020-05-24 12:12 ` Bastien
2020-05-24 13:17 ` Bruce D'Arcus
2020-05-29 21:59 ` András Simonyi
2020-05-29 22:24 ` Bruce D'Arcus
2020-05-29 22:58 ` Bruce D'Arcus
2020-06-03 14:40 ` Bastien
2020-06-03 14:53 ` Bruce D'Arcus
2020-12-14 21:24 ` Bruce D'Arcus
2021-03-24 13:22 ` Bruce D'Arcus
2021-03-24 18:27 ` M. ‘quintus’ Gülker
2021-04-11 23:15 ` Bruce D'Arcus
2021-04-12 13:19 ` Nicolas Goaziou
2021-04-12 18:53 ` András Simonyi
2021-04-16 17:05 ` András Simonyi
2021-04-16 17:23 ` Bruce D'Arcus
2021-04-18 13:11 ` Nicolas Goaziou
2021-04-18 13:35 ` Ihor Radchenko
2021-04-18 13:37 ` Bruce D'Arcus
2021-04-21 19:57 ` John Kitchin
2021-04-21 20:09 ` Bruce D'Arcus
2021-04-21 20:57 ` John Kitchin
2021-04-21 20:26 ` John Kitchin
2021-04-21 20:54 ` Bruce D'Arcus
2021-04-22 2:47 ` Timothy
2021-04-22 12:07 ` Bruce D'Arcus
2021-04-22 12:34 ` Timothy
2021-04-21 21:47 ` András Simonyi
2021-04-21 23:51 ` Nicolas Goaziou
2021-04-22 0:01 ` Bruce D'Arcus
2021-04-22 0:15 ` Nicolas Goaziou
2021-04-23 11:49 ` Nicolas Goaziou
2021-04-23 12:55 ` András Simonyi
2021-04-23 13:10 ` Bruce D'Arcus
2021-04-23 13:24 ` Bruce D'Arcus
2021-04-23 14:50 ` András Simonyi
2021-04-23 22:08 ` Bruce D'Arcus
2021-04-24 17:37 ` M. ‘quintus’ Gülker
2021-04-24 17:47 ` Nicolas Goaziou
2021-04-24 18:39 ` Bruce D'Arcus
2021-04-26 14:54 ` Bruce D'Arcus
2021-04-26 20:35 ` Denis Maier
2021-04-27 10:12 ` Bruce D'Arcus
2021-04-27 10:20 ` Timothy
2021-04-27 11:44 ` Denis Maier
2021-04-27 12:32 ` Bruce D'Arcus
2021-04-27 13:58 ` Denis Maier
2021-04-27 14:07 ` Bruce D'Arcus
2021-04-27 14:50 ` Denis Maier
2021-04-30 13:28 ` Nicolas Goaziou
2021-04-30 21:47 ` Denis Maier
2021-05-01 11:09 ` Nicolas Goaziou
2021-05-01 13:26 ` Bruce D'Arcus
2021-05-02 21:58 ` Denis Maier
2021-05-02 22:18 ` Bruce D'Arcus
2021-05-02 23:30 ` Bruce D'Arcus
2021-05-05 13:46 ` Bruce D'Arcus
2021-05-05 18:14 ` M. ‘quintus’ Gülker
2021-05-05 18:27 ` Bruce D'Arcus
2021-05-06 17:05 ` M. ‘quintus’ Gülker
2021-05-06 8:08 ` Denis Maier
2021-04-24 13:14 ` Nicolas Goaziou
2021-04-23 12:03 ` Nicolas Goaziou
2021-04-23 13:34 ` András Simonyi
2021-04-17 19:13 ` M. ‘quintus’ Gülker
2021-04-18 16:17 ` Nicolas Goaziou
2021-04-20 13:32 ` Matt Price
2021-04-21 17:07 ` Nicolas Goaziou
2021-04-21 17:53 ` Bruce D'Arcus
2020-04-10 9:29 denis.maier.lists
2020-04-10 12:22 ` Bruce D'Arcus
2020-04-10 22:56 ` Nicolas Goaziou
2020-04-11 21:42 ` denis.maier.lists
2020-04-11 22:05 ` Bruce D'Arcus
2020-04-12 10:38 ` Nicolas Goaziou
2020-04-12 11:15 ` Bruce D'Arcus
2020-04-12 14:02 ` Nicolas Goaziou
2020-04-12 14:25 ` Bruce D'Arcus
2020-04-12 15:32 ` Nicolas Goaziou
2020-04-12 15:44 ` Bruce D'Arcus
2020-04-12 15:57 ` Nicolas Goaziou
2020-04-12 17:17 ` Bruce D'Arcus
2020-04-12 20:49 ` denis.maier.lists
2020-04-12 22:19 ` Nicolas Goaziou
2020-04-13 8:33 ` Stefan Nobis
2020-04-13 10:02 ` Denis Maier
2020-04-13 10:11 ` denis.maier.lists
2020-04-13 10:05 ` Bruce D'Arcus
2020-04-13 10:14 ` denis.maier.lists
2020-04-13 9:58 ` Bruce D'Arcus
2020-04-13 10:09 ` denis.maier.lists
2020-04-13 10:10 ` Joost Kremers
2020-04-13 10:46 ` Stefan Nobis
2020-04-15 5:54 ` Richard Lawrence
2020-04-15 10:07 ` Joost Kremers
2020-04-18 9:34 ` Richard Lawrence
2020-04-18 10:56 ` Bruce D'Arcus
2020-04-18 12:48 ` Richard Lawrence
2020-04-18 13:17 ` Bruce D'Arcus
2020-04-18 13:22 ` Bruce D'Arcus
2020-04-18 20:23 ` Denis Maier
2020-04-18 20:28 ` denis.maier.lists
2020-04-19 9:11 ` Richard Lawrence
2020-04-25 16:19 ` Nicolas Goaziou
2020-04-25 17:00 ` Bruce D'Arcus
2020-04-25 20:03 ` Nicolas Goaziou
2020-04-25 21:18 ` Bruce D'Arcus
2020-05-01 17:38 ` Richard Lawrence
2020-05-01 17:54 ` Bruce D'Arcus
2020-05-02 14:06 ` Nicolas Goaziou
[not found] ` <2fbf14cf-ae8c-4f7c-27f7-33771aa99492@mailbox.org>
2020-05-02 16:34 ` Nicolas Goaziou
2020-05-02 17:24 ` Denis Maier
2020-05-02 13:13 ` Nicolas Goaziou
2020-05-02 13:45 ` Bruce D'Arcus
2020-05-02 20:45 ` Richard Lawrence
2020-04-29 9:14 ` Denis Maier
2020-05-02 9:51 ` Nicolas Goaziou
2020-05-02 11:53 ` Bruce D'Arcus
2020-04-18 20:38 ` Joost Kremers
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