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From: "Bruce D'Arcus" <bdarcus@gmail.com>
To: "Bruce D'Arcus" <bdarcus@gmail.com>, emacs-orgmode@gnu.org
Subject: Re: wip-cite status question and feedback
Date: Tue, 7 Apr 2020 14:31:53 -0400	[thread overview]
Message-ID: <CAF-FPGMeQN_XW=0MYOLLrmscaB7Op4kr9BVqx3d4EkH=rwD7zw@mail.gmail.com> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <CAF-FPGNVdaCvbREc46hr9Ky2K5s3m8obSD-=_D4hWSCR3jG3ww@mail.gmail.com>

Sorry for the typos, and also a more important mistake: a didn't mean
citeproc-hs, but citeproc-rs.

https://github.com/cormacrelf/citeproc-rs

On Tue, Apr 7, 2020 at 2:27 PM Bruce D'Arcus <bdarcus@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Thank you for this thorough reply, Nicholas!
>
> See below.
>
> On Tue, Apr 7, 2020 at 1:51 PM Nicolas Goaziou <mail@nicolasgoaziou.fr> wrote:
> >
> > Hello,
> >
> > "Bruce D'Arcus" <bdarcus@gmail.com> writes:
> >
> > > Hi everyone; first post.
> >
> > Welcome!
> >
> > > I see from the archive there was an encouraging thread from April of 2018
> > > <https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/emacs-orgmode/2018-04/msg00336.html>
> > > (so, two years ago) that seemed to suggest merging to master was close,
> > > with perhaps some uncertainty around syntax being the primary hold up?
> > >
> > > My main question: how do we get this done?
> >
> > Good question. I don't think syntax is the primary hold up. It seems to
> > me that the glue part between the parser and the export back-ends is
> > missing. If we merge wip-cite branch in master, where do we plug it? How
> > do Org folks use it, out of the box? It also need tooling. For example,
> > citations could be a link to a database.
>
> OK, gotcha. That does explain the "hold up."
>
> I'll come back to this below, but for now simply say that ideal would
> probably be a default formatting library and database, with room to
> replace with other options.
>
> For the database, it would make to do as existing tools do; allow
> users to define default bib(la)tex files.
>
> [snip]
>
> > Actually, barring the "cite:" prefix, you can use the exact same syntax
> > as Pandoc, i.e.:
> >
> >   [cite:see @doe99, pp. 33-35; also @smith04, chap. 1]
> >   [cite:@doe99, pp. 33-35, 38-39 and *passim*]
> >   [cite:@smith04; @doe99]
> >
> > Only the semicolon is meaningful in there, not the commas. Also, for
> > readability, spacing after the "cite:" prefix is ignored, so one can
> > write, e.g.,
> >
> >   [cite: see @doe99, pp. 33-35; also @smith04, chap. 1]
>
> OK, that's good.
>
> Note that in CSL processors, the locators are meaningful key-values,
> basically; not plain text strings.
>
> This is because different citation styles have different requirements
> for rendering them.
>
> Description from the spec:
>
> a cite-specific pinpointer within the item (e.g. a page number within
> a book, or a volume in a multi-volume work). Must be accompanied in
> the input data by a label indicating the locator type (see the
> Locators term list), which determines which term is rendered by
> cs:label when the “locator” variable is selected.
>
> And this is the list of CSL locators keys:
>
> http://docs.citationstyles.org/en/stable/specification.html#locators
>
> > > Or the first one might treat the “see” as a prefix for the list, though I’m
> > > not sure what the practical benefit of that more hierarchical modelling is.
> >
> > No, IIRC, the common prefix is the part before the first semicolon, but
> > only if that part contains no citation key. IOW, in the example above,
> > "see " is the prefix of the first citation reference, not a global
> > prefix.
> >
> > > While I do wonder if the syntax could be simplified, my main hope is that
> > > it actually gets merged to master and deployed, to harmonize the variety of
> > > different ways emacs tools (org-ref, ebib, pandoc, etc.) are dealing with
> > > citation links in org currently.
> >
> > If the syntax is practical, we could merge it, yes. Maybe that's the way
> > forward, after all. But then? What library is going to use it?
> >
> > Org Ref is well established and is unlikely to switch to the new syntax.
> > It would be nice if both syntax could converge at some point, though.
> > The point of the new syntax is to make it easier for this kind of
> > extension.
>
> While I of course can't speak for John, I would hope and expect org
> ref to support the new syntax.
>
> I would hope and expect the same of other packages (like ebib) that
> use their own custom syntax.
>
> > "citeproc-el" is not included in Emacs, so integrating "citeproc-org" in
> > Org may not be helpful at this point. Since Org is bundled with Emacs,
> > it cannot use external libraries.
>
> I hadn't considered that.
>
> I'm thinking two options:
>
> 1. just have a super simple citation export formatter, with (per
> above) room to configure an external one
>
> 2. while I don't know its status, include citeproc-org in org and emacs
>
> I'd say if citeproc-org is far along and free of substantial bugs, 2
> might make sense. I am, of course, biased, but CSL's been widely
> deployed in the wild for more than a decade, and there are thousands
> of available styles.
>
> Otherwise, and more likely, 1 would be the best path; users get basic
> output formatting for citations, but then can plug in more elaborate
> tools (citeproc-org, citeproc-hs*, etc.) if they need them.
>
> Obviously, if a user is exporting to LaTeX, the formatting is
> straightforward, because you're just exporting to the latex cite code,
> as pandoc does (though it also has an option to use citeproc to
> produce "cooked" formatted output in latex).
>
> For HTML, the output doesn't need to be anything fancy.
>
> So the #1 path is the more iterative approach to implementing the functionality.
>
> WDY about that?
>
> Bruce
>
> * citeproc-hs is a newer effort, funded by zotero, to create a very
> high performance, fully compliant, CSL implementation, that is easy to
> embed and use pretty much anywhere; I haven't checked on the status
> recently, but I'm optimistic this will be the best option long-term
>
> Bruce


  reply	other threads:[~2020-04-07 18:32 UTC|newest]

Thread overview: 139+ messages / expand[flat|nested]  mbox.gz  Atom feed  top
2020-04-07 15:15 Bruce D'Arcus
2020-04-07 17:51 ` Nicolas Goaziou
2020-04-07 18:27   ` Bruce D'Arcus
2020-04-07 18:31     ` Bruce D'Arcus [this message]
2020-04-07 21:13     ` Joost Kremers
2020-04-08  0:01       ` Bruce D'Arcus
2020-04-08  9:16         ` Joost Kremers
2020-04-08  9:32     ` Nicolas Goaziou
2020-04-08 12:19       ` Bruce D'Arcus
2020-04-08 13:39         ` John Kitchin
2020-04-08 16:12           ` Bruce D'Arcus
2020-04-09  7:38         ` Albert Krewinkel
2020-04-09  9:30           ` Bruce D'Arcus
2020-04-09  9:46             ` Bruce D'Arcus
2020-04-09 10:05               ` Bruce D'Arcus
2020-04-09 23:17                 ` Nicolas Goaziou
2020-04-10  1:17                   ` Bruce D'Arcus
2020-04-10  5:38             ` Albert Krewinkel
2020-04-11 11:41       ` Bruce D'Arcus
2020-04-13 12:05       ` Gustav Wikström
2020-04-13 12:33         ` Bruce D'Arcus
2020-05-24 12:12           ` Bastien
2020-05-24 13:17             ` Bruce D'Arcus
2020-05-29 21:59               ` András Simonyi
2020-05-29 22:24                 ` Bruce D'Arcus
2020-05-29 22:58                 ` Bruce D'Arcus
2020-06-03 14:40                   ` Bastien
2020-06-03 14:53                     ` Bruce D'Arcus
2020-12-14 21:24                       ` Bruce D'Arcus
2021-03-24 13:22                       ` Bruce D'Arcus
2021-03-24 18:27                         ` M. ‘quintus’ Gülker
2021-04-11 23:15                           ` Bruce D'Arcus
2021-04-12 13:19                             ` Nicolas Goaziou
2021-04-12 18:53                               ` András Simonyi
2021-04-16 17:05                               ` András Simonyi
2021-04-16 17:23                                 ` Bruce D'Arcus
2021-04-18 13:11                                 ` Nicolas Goaziou
2021-04-18 13:35                                   ` Ihor Radchenko
2021-04-18 13:37                                     ` Bruce D'Arcus
2021-04-21 19:57                                     ` John Kitchin
2021-04-21 20:09                                       ` Bruce D'Arcus
2021-04-21 20:57                                         ` John Kitchin
2021-04-21 20:26                                   ` John Kitchin
2021-04-21 20:54                                     ` Bruce D'Arcus
2021-04-22  2:47                                     ` Timothy
2021-04-22 12:07                                       ` Bruce D'Arcus
2021-04-22 12:34                                         ` Timothy
2021-04-21 21:47                                   ` András Simonyi
2021-04-21 23:51                                     ` Nicolas Goaziou
2021-04-22  0:01                                       ` Bruce D'Arcus
2021-04-22  0:15                                         ` Nicolas Goaziou
2021-04-23 11:49                                           ` Nicolas Goaziou
2021-04-23 12:55                                             ` András Simonyi
2021-04-23 13:10                                               ` Bruce D'Arcus
2021-04-23 13:24                                                 ` Bruce D'Arcus
2021-04-23 14:50                                                   ` András Simonyi
2021-04-23 22:08                                                   ` Bruce D'Arcus
2021-04-24 17:37                                                   ` M. ‘quintus’ Gülker
2021-04-24 17:47                                                   ` Nicolas Goaziou
2021-04-24 18:39                                                     ` Bruce D'Arcus
2021-04-26 14:54                                                       ` Bruce D'Arcus
2021-04-26 20:35                                                         ` Denis Maier
2021-04-27 10:12                                                           ` Bruce D'Arcus
2021-04-27 10:20                                                             ` Timothy
2021-04-27 11:44                                                             ` Denis Maier
2021-04-27 12:32                                                               ` Bruce D'Arcus
2021-04-27 13:58                                                                 ` Denis Maier
2021-04-27 14:07                                                                   ` Bruce D'Arcus
2021-04-27 14:50                                                                     ` Denis Maier
2021-04-30 13:28                                                       ` Nicolas Goaziou
2021-04-30 21:47                                                         ` Denis Maier
2021-05-01 11:09                                                           ` Nicolas Goaziou
2021-05-01 13:26                                                           ` Bruce D'Arcus
2021-05-02 21:58                                                             ` Denis Maier
2021-05-02 22:18                                                               ` Bruce D'Arcus
2021-05-02 23:30                                                                 ` Bruce D'Arcus
2021-05-05 13:46                                                                 ` Bruce D'Arcus
2021-05-05 18:14                                                                   ` M. ‘quintus’ Gülker
2021-05-05 18:27                                                                     ` Bruce D'Arcus
2021-05-06 17:05                                                                       ` M. ‘quintus’ Gülker
2021-05-06  8:08                                                                     ` Denis Maier
2021-04-24 13:14                                               ` Nicolas Goaziou
2021-04-23 12:03                                     ` Nicolas Goaziou
2021-04-23 13:34                                       ` András Simonyi
2021-04-17 19:13                               ` M. ‘quintus’ Gülker
2021-04-18 16:17                                 ` Nicolas Goaziou
2021-04-20 13:32                                   ` Matt Price
2021-04-21 17:07                                     ` Nicolas Goaziou
2021-04-21 17:53                                       ` Bruce D'Arcus
2020-04-10  9:29 denis.maier.lists
2020-04-10 12:22 ` Bruce D'Arcus
2020-04-10 22:56 ` Nicolas Goaziou
2020-04-11 21:42   ` denis.maier.lists
2020-04-11 22:05     ` Bruce D'Arcus
2020-04-12 10:38       ` Nicolas Goaziou
2020-04-12 11:15         ` Bruce D'Arcus
2020-04-12 14:02           ` Nicolas Goaziou
2020-04-12 14:25             ` Bruce D'Arcus
2020-04-12 15:32               ` Nicolas Goaziou
2020-04-12 15:44                 ` Bruce D'Arcus
2020-04-12 15:57                   ` Nicolas Goaziou
2020-04-12 17:17                     ` Bruce D'Arcus
2020-04-12 20:49                 ` denis.maier.lists
2020-04-12 22:19                   ` Nicolas Goaziou
2020-04-13  8:33                     ` Stefan Nobis
2020-04-13 10:02                       ` Denis Maier
2020-04-13 10:11                         ` denis.maier.lists
2020-04-13 10:05                       ` Bruce D'Arcus
2020-04-13 10:14                       ` denis.maier.lists
2020-04-13  9:58                     ` Bruce D'Arcus
2020-04-13 10:09                     ` denis.maier.lists
2020-04-13 10:10                     ` Joost Kremers
2020-04-13 10:46                       ` Stefan Nobis
2020-04-15  5:54                       ` Richard Lawrence
2020-04-15 10:07                         ` Joost Kremers
2020-04-18  9:34                           ` Richard Lawrence
2020-04-18 10:56                         ` Bruce D'Arcus
2020-04-18 12:48                           ` Richard Lawrence
2020-04-18 13:17                             ` Bruce D'Arcus
2020-04-18 13:22                               ` Bruce D'Arcus
2020-04-18 20:23                                 ` Denis Maier
2020-04-18 20:28                                 ` denis.maier.lists
2020-04-19  9:11                               ` Richard Lawrence
2020-04-25 16:19                                 ` Nicolas Goaziou
2020-04-25 17:00                                   ` Bruce D'Arcus
2020-04-25 20:03                                     ` Nicolas Goaziou
2020-04-25 21:18                                       ` Bruce D'Arcus
2020-05-01 17:38                                         ` Richard Lawrence
2020-05-01 17:54                                           ` Bruce D'Arcus
2020-05-02 14:06                                             ` Nicolas Goaziou
     [not found]                                               ` <2fbf14cf-ae8c-4f7c-27f7-33771aa99492@mailbox.org>
2020-05-02 16:34                                                 ` Nicolas Goaziou
2020-05-02 17:24                                                   ` Denis Maier
2020-05-02 13:13                                           ` Nicolas Goaziou
2020-05-02 13:45                                             ` Bruce D'Arcus
2020-05-02 20:45                                             ` Richard Lawrence
2020-04-29  9:14                                   ` Denis Maier
2020-05-02  9:51                                     ` Nicolas Goaziou
2020-05-02 11:53                                       ` Bruce D'Arcus
2020-04-18 20:38                           ` Joost Kremers

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