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From: Detlef Steuer <steuer@hsu-hh.de>
To: emacs-orgmode@gnu.org
Subject: Re: Changed list indentation behavior: how to revert?
Date: Sun, 15 Nov 2020 12:58:30 +0100	[thread overview]
Message-ID: <20201115125830.79262e07@linux-h0yu.fritz.box> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <87y2j2u9g7.fsf@gmail.com>

Am Sun, 15 Nov 2020 08:48:56 -0300
schrieb Gustavo Barros <gtvbrs@gmail.com>:

> Hi All,
> 
> On Sun, 15 Nov 2020 at 13:37, Greg Minshall <minshall@umich.edu>
> wrote:
> 
> > hi, all.
> >
> > David Rogers <davidandrewrogers@gmail.com> wrote:
> >  
> >> Am I crazy to say that your last example of unwanted behavior is
> >> easier for me to read and understand? (and to me the common 
> >> indenting is a hopeless mess?)  
> >
> > yes, in fact, the "new" way sort of has the buffer indentation match
> > that of the outline structure of the file (specified by asterisks).
> > there's a lot to be said for that.  (though, obviously, it's not
> > what everyone would want.)
> >
> > if the new mode stays as the standard, maybe we'd want to capture an
> > asterisk typed immediately after a newline that would (by default),
> > put that line-beginning asterisk back in column one?
> >
> > otherwise, this is what one gets (without remembering to do a C-j
> > instead of <RET>):
> > -----
> > * i wanted a headline<RET>
> >   * i wanted a subhead, but it's ignored by org mode
> > -----
> > which is maybe not optimal?
> >
> > in most non-org modes (including in Org Src... buffers, and in org
> > files when writing org-mode lists), i'm a big fan of electric
> > indent mode.
> >
> > maybe an org-specific setting, "org-file-indent-follows-structure"?
> >  if true, it means the user wants to have a "raw" org document laid
> > out according to the outline structure of the document.  if false,
> > it means one, in general, wants the org file laid out with
> > left-alignment (or, right, in right-to-left) languages (not
> > including embedded lists, and whatever else i might be ignoring).
> >
> > cheers, Greg  
> 
> I'm quite surprised by the reaction to this issue, because
> `electric-indent-mode' *does not change Org's indentation settings*,
> it just applies them alongside RET.  Which makes me think that those
> who've been so bitten by it where actually manually overriding (their
> own) settings in this area by never applying indentation.  If that's
> your case, you'd probably be very surprised of running
> `org-indent-region' in your documents (don't do it, I don't want to
> break them).
> 
> In particular, one "surprising" result of the "new behavior" is that
> of indentation after a heading.  That was already and continues to be
> controlled by the user option `org-adapt-indentation'.  If you don't
> want your content to be indented after a heading, set it to nil.  And
> `electric-indent-mode' should do what you expect in this regard. 
> 
> I'm not sure if thus overriding your own (or Org's, if you prefer)
> indentation settings by selectively applying indentation is a sane
> approach, so perhaps `electric-indent-mode' may help you discipline
> your editing to your benefit.  And make you more conscious of Org
> indentation.  Especially because indentation is not a "free variable"
> in Org, it is a syntactical aspect of an Org document and,
> conspicuously, is critical to the definition of a heading and of
> plain lists.
> 
> An example from Greg:
> 
> > -----
> > * i wanted a headline<RET>
> >   * i wanted a subhead, but it's ignored by org mode
> > -----  
> 
> That's because the first one is indeed a heading, and the second is
> not, it is a plain list item.  By definition a heading must start at
> the left margin.
> 
> You (plural) could probably also get some juice from looking into, and
> incorporating to muscle memory, `M-RET', `C-RET' and `C-j'.
> 
> Of course, with that said, if you really don't like
> `electric-indent-mode' for Org, you can disable it as described in the
> Org News, previously linked to in this thread.  There is ground to
> prefer this, particularly for the list case, mentioned by Karl in the
> original message of this thread.  But `electric-indent-mode' does not
> induce a new pattern of indentation for Org, it just applies your
> settings in this area, whose defaults have not changed of recent, as
> far as I recall.
> 
> Finally, the "change" was not brought about by Org, but by Emacs.  Org
> just (belatedly) tagged along.
> 
> Best regards,
> Gustavo.
> 

Thank you for clearing that up!

Detlef


  reply	other threads:[~2020-11-15 11:59 UTC|newest]

Thread overview: 76+ messages / expand[flat|nested]  mbox.gz  Atom feed  top
2020-11-13 17:30 Changed list indentation behavior: how to revert? Karl Voit
2020-11-13 21:10 ` Gustavo Barros
2020-11-13 21:38   ` Jean Louis
2020-11-14  3:02     ` Greg Minshall
2020-11-13 21:47   ` Jean Louis
2020-11-13 22:13     ` Gustavo Barros
2020-11-13 22:21       ` Jean Louis
2020-11-14 17:28         ` Diego Zamboni
2020-11-14 19:10           ` Jean Louis
2020-11-15 12:44             ` Kévin Le Gouguec
2020-11-15 13:26               ` Jean Louis
2020-11-15 21:59                 ` Kévin Le Gouguec
2020-11-15 22:15                   ` Jean Louis
2020-11-16  7:15                   ` Dr. Arne Babenhauserheide
2020-11-16  6:26               ` Greg Minshall
2020-11-14 10:45   ` Diego Zamboni
2020-11-13 21:31 ` Jean Louis
2020-11-14 22:43 ` David Rogers
2020-11-15  5:38   ` Jean Louis
2020-11-15  7:47     ` David Rogers
2020-11-15  8:54       ` Jean Louis
2020-11-15 10:37       ` Greg Minshall
2020-11-15 11:42         ` Tim Cross
2020-11-15 11:48         ` Gustavo Barros
2020-11-15 11:58           ` Detlef Steuer [this message]
2020-11-15 12:09           ` Jean Louis
2020-11-15 14:50             ` Gustavo Barros
2020-11-15 15:11               ` Jean Louis
2020-11-15 10:44       ` Dr. Arne Babenhauserheide
2020-11-15 11:22         ` Detlef Steuer
2020-11-15 14:03           ` Kévin Le Gouguec
2020-11-16  5:24             ` Kyle Meyer
2020-11-16  6:41               ` Tim Cross
2020-11-16  7:15                 ` Tim Cross
2020-11-16 11:21                   ` Gustavo Barros
2020-11-16 23:24                     ` T.F. Torrey
2020-11-17  1:21                       ` Tom Gillespie
2020-11-17  7:01                         ` Dr. Arne Babenhauserheide
2020-11-17  7:48                       ` Michal Politowski
2020-11-19  4:17                     ` Marcel Ventosa
2020-11-16  8:06                 ` Kévin Le Gouguec
2020-11-16 12:10                 ` Bill Burdick
2020-11-16  6:54               ` Greg Minshall
2020-11-16  7:12                 ` Tim Cross
2020-11-17  4:03                   ` Greg Minshall
2020-11-17  5:25                     ` Tim Cross
2020-11-17 13:15                       ` Greg Minshall
2020-11-16  7:01               ` Dr. Arne Babenhauserheide
2020-11-16  7:22                 ` Tim Cross
2020-11-16 16:04                   ` Dr. Arne Babenhauserheide
2020-11-16 16:26                     ` Tom Gillespie
2020-11-16 18:12                       ` gyro funch
2020-11-16 18:48                         ` Tom Gillespie
2020-11-16 19:41                           ` Bill Burdick
2020-11-16 19:56                             ` Tom Gillespie
2020-11-16 21:50                             ` Tim Cross
2020-11-16 23:01                               ` Tom Gillespie
2020-11-16 21:44                           ` Tim Cross
2020-11-16 18:20                       ` gyro funch
2020-11-16 20:56                       ` Tim Cross
2020-11-16 21:35                         ` Bill Burdick
2020-11-16 22:44                         ` Tom Gillespie
2020-11-16 23:55                         ` Dr. Arne Babenhauserheide
2020-11-17  9:05                           ` Stefan Nobis
2020-11-17  9:15                             ` Loris Bennett
2020-11-17  9:32                             ` Diego Zamboni
2020-11-17 14:29                             ` Dr. Arne Babenhauserheide
2020-11-17 16:25                               ` Robert Pluim
2020-11-16 23:39                       ` Dr. Arne Babenhauserheide
2020-11-16 21:35                     ` Tim Cross
2020-11-17  0:11                       ` Dr. Arne Babenhauserheide
2020-11-17  8:45                         ` Detlef Steuer
2020-11-17  9:41                           ` Jean Louis
2020-11-17 15:33                     ` Maxim Nikulin
2020-11-16 13:00                 ` Uwe Brauer
2020-11-16 16:10                   ` Dr. Arne Babenhauserheide

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