From: "Kévin Le Gouguec" <kevin.legouguec@gmail.com>
To: Jean Louis <bugs@gnu.support>
Cc: emacs-orgmode@gnu.org
Subject: Re: Changed list indentation behavior: how to revert?
Date: Sun, 15 Nov 2020 22:59:43 +0100 [thread overview]
Message-ID: <87k0umjn74.fsf@gmail.com> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <X7EsgKZ3SmkHOORQ@protected.rcdrun.com> (Jean Louis's message of "Sun, 15 Nov 2020 16:26:25 +0300")
Jean Louis <bugs@gnu.support> writes:
> There is just slight difference, and that is what I learned from
> introduction to Org mode that it is "plain text" kind of mode. I can
> do and write how I wish. My habit comes from being used to indent when
> I want and then to follow indentation in that specific paragraph. That
> is really great.
>
> But I was not used to have it indented by programmer like the
> introduction of this new default feature, which I consider is not
> useful to be default.
Note that even before this change, Org's indentation already behaved
like a "programming mode". TAB does not allow you to move to "any
column":
- either org-adapt-indentation is t (the default) and TAB moves your
paragraph to column LEVEL+1,
- or it is nil, and TAB is a no-op.
> Observe this official presentation and you will see how current
> indentation is not consistent to what is shown:
> https://orgmode.org/resources/img/features/folding.gif
>
> Look at this official presentation and you will see that even headings
> are indented for which we say it should not be so:
> https://orgmode.org/resources/img/features/clocking.svg
Yep, AFAICT this has been produced with org-indent-mode, which
soft-indents using overlays.
> The official presentation here:
> https://orgmode.org/
>
> does not show any indentation at all.
>
> And in Info file I find nothing of it.
Yep; what this (along with the way org-adapt-indentation is unset in
Org's own repo) suggests to me is that Org, by default, should not
indent section bodies.
This means *not only* that RET should not indent, but that /TAB/ should
not rigidly indent to column LEVEL+1 (I don't have a strong opinion
about whether it should rigidly indent to column 0, or if it should
behave as in text-mode).
So AFAIU the issue lies not with RET becoming consistent with the rest
of Emacs and doing "insert newline then indent smartly"; rather it lies
with how Org defines "smartly". From what I gather from this thread,
lots of folks would like Org to keep section bodies at column 0.
> All I say, when default is introduced, should be well documented how
> and why. Before it is introduced it is better to discuss wider with
> people.
>
> Few of people reading these exchanges may find how to turn it off,
> majority will not find it.
Before being applied, this change has been discussed on emacs-devel and
emacs-orgmode; it has then been documented in ORG-NEWS. Which other
places do you think we should have reached out to?
>> IIUC this can be toggled off by setting org-adapt-indentation to nil;
>> FWIW this is what the .dir-locals.el file at the root of Org's
>> repository doe
>
> With 2000+ directories containing Org file of persons, held on this
> system that would mean turning it on 2000+ times. Because in general I
> do not use that type of indentation I have just set it in main
> ~/.emacs.d/init.el file.
>
> We concluded that configuring is easy and that is great.
>
> What is not concluded is that the default impacts too many people who
> may not find out how to configure it back and that designing user
> interface shall be made with more care.
I admit to not having put as much thought in a "migration plan" as I
could have. My reasoning was that since Org indents text by default
(/when/ hitting TAB or using the "smart newline" command), users were
probably fine with it.
IIUC I failed to understand that:
- Plenty of Org users do not expect it to behave like programming modes
wrt indentation (they might not even use programming modes).
- These users were using RET as a "dumb newline" command, unaware
that by default, Org considers that text should be indented.
- org-adapt-indentation…
- exists (really, I just found out about it today, after wondering
why on Earth Org does not indent text in doc/org-guide.org, and
tracing it to the repository's directory-local variables).
- has a default value that does not reflect how Org text is indented
in official examples, nor in Org's own repository.
next prev parent reply other threads:[~2020-11-15 22:00 UTC|newest]
Thread overview: 76+ messages / expand[flat|nested] mbox.gz Atom feed top
2020-11-13 17:30 Changed list indentation behavior: how to revert? Karl Voit
2020-11-13 21:10 ` Gustavo Barros
2020-11-13 21:38 ` Jean Louis
2020-11-14 3:02 ` Greg Minshall
2020-11-13 21:47 ` Jean Louis
2020-11-13 22:13 ` Gustavo Barros
2020-11-13 22:21 ` Jean Louis
2020-11-14 17:28 ` Diego Zamboni
2020-11-14 19:10 ` Jean Louis
2020-11-15 12:44 ` Kévin Le Gouguec
2020-11-15 13:26 ` Jean Louis
2020-11-15 21:59 ` Kévin Le Gouguec [this message]
2020-11-15 22:15 ` Jean Louis
2020-11-16 7:15 ` Dr. Arne Babenhauserheide
2020-11-16 6:26 ` Greg Minshall
2020-11-14 10:45 ` Diego Zamboni
2020-11-13 21:31 ` Jean Louis
2020-11-14 22:43 ` David Rogers
2020-11-15 5:38 ` Jean Louis
2020-11-15 7:47 ` David Rogers
2020-11-15 8:54 ` Jean Louis
2020-11-15 10:37 ` Greg Minshall
2020-11-15 11:42 ` Tim Cross
2020-11-15 11:48 ` Gustavo Barros
2020-11-15 11:58 ` Detlef Steuer
2020-11-15 12:09 ` Jean Louis
2020-11-15 14:50 ` Gustavo Barros
2020-11-15 15:11 ` Jean Louis
2020-11-15 10:44 ` Dr. Arne Babenhauserheide
2020-11-15 11:22 ` Detlef Steuer
2020-11-15 14:03 ` Kévin Le Gouguec
2020-11-16 5:24 ` Kyle Meyer
2020-11-16 6:41 ` Tim Cross
2020-11-16 7:15 ` Tim Cross
2020-11-16 11:21 ` Gustavo Barros
2020-11-16 23:24 ` T.F. Torrey
2020-11-17 1:21 ` Tom Gillespie
2020-11-17 7:01 ` Dr. Arne Babenhauserheide
2020-11-17 7:48 ` Michal Politowski
2020-11-19 4:17 ` Marcel Ventosa
2020-11-16 8:06 ` Kévin Le Gouguec
2020-11-16 12:10 ` Bill Burdick
2020-11-16 6:54 ` Greg Minshall
2020-11-16 7:12 ` Tim Cross
2020-11-17 4:03 ` Greg Minshall
2020-11-17 5:25 ` Tim Cross
2020-11-17 13:15 ` Greg Minshall
2020-11-16 7:01 ` Dr. Arne Babenhauserheide
2020-11-16 7:22 ` Tim Cross
2020-11-16 16:04 ` Dr. Arne Babenhauserheide
2020-11-16 16:26 ` Tom Gillespie
2020-11-16 18:12 ` gyro funch
2020-11-16 18:48 ` Tom Gillespie
2020-11-16 19:41 ` Bill Burdick
2020-11-16 19:56 ` Tom Gillespie
2020-11-16 21:50 ` Tim Cross
2020-11-16 23:01 ` Tom Gillespie
2020-11-16 21:44 ` Tim Cross
2020-11-16 18:20 ` gyro funch
2020-11-16 20:56 ` Tim Cross
2020-11-16 21:35 ` Bill Burdick
2020-11-16 22:44 ` Tom Gillespie
2020-11-16 23:55 ` Dr. Arne Babenhauserheide
2020-11-17 9:05 ` Stefan Nobis
2020-11-17 9:15 ` Loris Bennett
2020-11-17 9:32 ` Diego Zamboni
2020-11-17 14:29 ` Dr. Arne Babenhauserheide
2020-11-17 16:25 ` Robert Pluim
2020-11-16 23:39 ` Dr. Arne Babenhauserheide
2020-11-16 21:35 ` Tim Cross
2020-11-17 0:11 ` Dr. Arne Babenhauserheide
2020-11-17 8:45 ` Detlef Steuer
2020-11-17 9:41 ` Jean Louis
2020-11-17 15:33 ` Maxim Nikulin
2020-11-16 13:00 ` Uwe Brauer
2020-11-16 16:10 ` Dr. Arne Babenhauserheide
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