From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mp2 ([2001:41d0:2:4a6f::]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits)) by ms11 with LMTPS id gKMyIhcYsV+yQQAA0tVLHw (envelope-from ) for ; Sun, 15 Nov 2020 11:59:19 +0000 Received: from aspmx1.migadu.com ([2001:41d0:2:4a6f::]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits)) by mp2 with LMTPS id SPEHHhcYsV9qRwAAB5/wlQ (envelope-from ) for ; Sun, 15 Nov 2020 11:59:19 +0000 Received: from lists.gnu.org (lists.gnu.org [209.51.188.17]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by aspmx1.migadu.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D46F79403CA for ; Sun, 15 Nov 2020 11:59:18 +0000 (UTC) Received: from localhost ([::1]:50902 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1keGge-0001NH-CS for larch@yhetil.org; Sun, 15 Nov 2020 06:59:16 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:60294) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1keGg5-0001N9-NJ for emacs-orgmode@gnu.org; Sun, 15 Nov 2020 06:58:41 -0500 Received: from mail-sender-5.unibw-hamburg.de ([139.11.10.105]:64671 helo=premail.unibw-hamburg.de) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1keGg1-0007PL-Ft for emacs-orgmode@gnu.org; Sun, 15 Nov 2020 06:58:41 -0500 Received: from rzav4.unibw-hamburg.de ([139.11.12.54]:37817) by premail.unibw-hamburg.de with esmtp (HSU Mailserver) (envelope-from ) id 1keGfz-0001zX-9v for emacs-orgmode@gnu.org; Sun, 15 Nov 2020 12:58:35 +0100 IronPort-SDR: qFFSAx80r9pXz7blAJNPxaf07HoSHaSs2R44qmLbBOJ1V1QnY0vV+cpqw6H7dBYjIFLriJVokx uYsxtUUzllk2tVJdvHOedH+c0FsQBuhzZgo8T0fZmEMc0IxSNUNLZth77XwxdVkzsO27zdCPsJ plwEDtg/4QEU8MVqb9/XF+39RjFgzqu7PwD1ylDmgNVqXc0KMLm2lngcpteCXnSNaHAkBrbWfE We2diIo03oTtR1nlWrVvefITNAPgyAiRv1H1VEAzhoiOCTP6Cu7lhvscsd52zf1xIay1/HsF1x N0Y= X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.77,480,1596492000"; d="scan'208";a="59610253" Received: from mailcluster-1.unibw-hamburg.de (HELO premail.unibw-hamburg.de) ([139.11.5.101]) by rzav4.unibw-hamburg.de with ESMTP; 15 Nov 2020 12:58:36 +0100 Received: from dynamic-077-000-225-014.77.0.pool.telefonica.de ([77.0.225.14]:49774 helo=linux-h0yu.fritz.box) by premail.unibw-hamburg.de with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384:256) (HSU Mailserver) (envelope-from ) id 1keGfy-0001yy-VC; Sun, 15 Nov 2020 12:58:35 +0100 Date: Sun, 15 Nov 2020 12:58:30 +0100 From: Detlef Steuer To: emacs-orgmode@gnu.org Subject: Re: Changed list indentation behavior: how to revert? Message-ID: <20201115125830.79262e07@linux-h0yu.fritz.box> In-Reply-To: <87y2j2u9g7.fsf@gmail.com> References: <665024.1605436621@apollo2.minshall.org> <87y2j2u9g7.fsf@gmail.com> Organization: HSU X-Mailer: Claws Mail 3.17.8 (GTK+ 2.24.32; x86_64-suse-linux-gnu) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-HSU-Virusscan: Routed to first Viruswall X-Brisant: Sender steuer@hsu-hh.de X-HSU-Virusscan: First Viruswall passed X-Authenticated-Sender: 13438/77.0.225.14 X-HSU-Virusscan: Routed to second Viruswall (Cisco Ironport ESAV) X-Brisant: Sender steuer@hsu-hh.de Received-SPF: pass client-ip=139.11.10.105; envelope-from=prvs=058810a2d8=steuer@hsu-hh.de; helo=premail.unibw-hamburg.de X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: First seen = 2020/11/15 06:22:03 X-ACL-Warn: Detected OS = Linux 2.2.x-3.x [generic] [fuzzy] X-Spam_score_int: -41 X-Spam_score: -4.2 X-Spam_bar: ---- X-Spam_report: (-4.2 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-orgmode@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: "General discussions about Org-mode." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org Sender: "Emacs-orgmode" X-Scanner: ns3122888.ip-94-23-21.eu Authentication-Results: aspmx1.migadu.com; dkim=none; dmarc=none; spf=pass (aspmx1.migadu.com: domain of emacs-orgmode-bounces@gnu.org designates 209.51.188.17 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=emacs-orgmode-bounces@gnu.org X-Spam-Score: -0.01 X-TUID: ed4R55fxHDnT Am Sun, 15 Nov 2020 08:48:56 -0300 schrieb Gustavo Barros : > Hi All, >=20 > On Sun, 15 Nov 2020 at 13:37, Greg Minshall > wrote: >=20 > > hi, all. > > > > David Rogers wrote: > > =20 > >> Am I=C2=A0crazy to say that your last example of unwanted behavior is > >> easier for me to read and understand? (and to me the common=20 > >> indenting is a hopeless mess?) =20 > > > > yes, in fact, the "new" way sort of has the buffer indentation match > > that of the outline structure of the file (specified by asterisks). > > there's a lot to be said for that. (though, obviously, it's not > > what everyone would want.) > > > > if the new mode stays as the standard, maybe we'd want to capture an > > asterisk typed immediately after a newline that would (by default), > > put that line-beginning asterisk back in column one? > > > > otherwise, this is what one gets (without remembering to do a C-j > > instead of ): > > ----- > > * i wanted a headline > > * i wanted a subhead, but it's ignored by org mode > > ----- > > which is maybe not optimal? > > > > in most non-org modes (including in Org Src... buffers, and in org > > files when writing org-mode lists), i'm a big fan of electric > > indent mode. > > > > maybe an org-specific setting, "org-file-indent-follows-structure"? > > if true, it means the user wants to have a "raw" org document laid > > out according to the outline structure of the document. if false, > > it means one, in general, wants the org file laid out with > > left-alignment (or, right, in right-to-left) languages (not > > including embedded lists, and whatever else i might be ignoring). > > > > cheers, Greg =20 >=20 > I'm quite surprised by the reaction to this issue, because > `electric-indent-mode' *does not change Org's indentation settings*, > it just applies them alongside RET. Which makes me think that those > who've been so bitten by it where actually manually overriding (their > own) settings in this area by never applying indentation. If that's > your case, you'd probably be very surprised of running > `org-indent-region' in your documents (don't do it, I don't want to > break them). >=20 > In particular, one "surprising" result of the "new behavior" is that > of indentation after a heading. That was already and continues to be > controlled by the user option `org-adapt-indentation'. If you don't > want your content to be indented after a heading, set it to nil. And > `electric-indent-mode' should do what you expect in this regard.=20 >=20 > I'm not sure if thus overriding your own (or Org's, if you prefer) > indentation settings by selectively applying indentation is a sane > approach, so perhaps `electric-indent-mode' may help you discipline > your editing to your benefit. And make you more conscious of Org > indentation. Especially because indentation is not a "free variable" > in Org, it is a syntactical aspect of an Org document and, > conspicuously, is critical to the definition of a heading and of > plain lists. >=20 > An example from Greg: >=20 > > ----- > > * i wanted a headline > > * i wanted a subhead, but it's ignored by org mode > > ----- =20 >=20 > That's because the first one is indeed a heading, and the second is > not, it is a plain list item. By definition a heading must start at > the left margin. >=20 > You (plural) could probably also get some juice from looking into, and > incorporating to muscle memory, `M-RET', `C-RET' and `C-j'. >=20 > Of course, with that said, if you really don't like > `electric-indent-mode' for Org, you can disable it as described in the > Org News, previously linked to in this thread. There is ground to > prefer this, particularly for the list case, mentioned by Karl in the > original message of this thread. But `electric-indent-mode' does not > induce a new pattern of indentation for Org, it just applies your > settings in this area, whose defaults have not changed of recent, as > far as I recall. >=20 > Finally, the "change" was not brought about by Org, but by Emacs. Org > just (belatedly) tagged along. >=20 > Best regards, > Gustavo. >=20 Thank you for clearing that up! Detlef