Tagging a region of text without creating a branch

Tagging a region of text without creating a branch

[bar tomas]

Hi,
Is it possible to tag a region of text without creating a new branch?
I mean, for instance, if I have the following orgmode document structure:

* item1
this is about item 1
bla bla
more about item1

I'd like to give a tag to the bit 'bla bla', but the scope of the tag
should not include 'more about item 1'; however if I do this:

* item1
this is about item 1
** subitem1 :urgent:
bla bla
more about item1

'more about item1' is now in the scope of the tag :urgent:  which is
not what I want (I'd like it be directly under the first level item1)

I mean, more generally, is it possible to tag an 'island' of text
within the content of a certain branch?
Thanks very much

Re: Tagging a region of text without creating a branch

[Matt Lundin]

bar tomas <bartomas@gmail.com> writes:

> Is it possible to tag a region of text without creating a new branch?
> I mean, for instance, if I have the following orgmode document structure:
>
> * item1
> this is about item 1
> bla bla
> more about item1
>
> I'd like to give a tag to the bit 'bla bla', but the scope of the tag
> should not include 'more about item 1'; 

Just curious: what would be the advantage of tagging a region of text
rather than creating subheadings?

E.g.,

--8<---------------cut here---------------start------------->8---
* item1
** this is about item 1 
about item one
** bla bla                      :urgent:
More bla bla
** More about item1
more about item1
--8<---------------cut here---------------end--------------->8---

Since org mode relies on the hierarchical structure of outlines, all of
the subheadings are part of the tree beginning with item1.

Also, how would a region of tagged text appear in the agenda? The agenda
depends on the association of metadata with headlines.

Best,
Matt

Re: Tagging a region of text without creating a branch

[Bernt Hansen]

Matt Lundin <mdl@imapmail.org> writes:

> bar tomas <bartomas@gmail.com> writes:
>
>> Is it possible to tag a region of text without creating a new branch?
>> I mean, for instance, if I have the following orgmode document structure:
>>
>> * item1
>> this is about item 1
>> bla bla
>> more about item1
>>
>> I'd like to give a tag to the bit 'bla bla', but the scope of the tag
>> should not include 'more about item 1'; 
>
> Just curious: what would be the advantage of tagging a region of text
> rather than creating subheadings?
>
> E.g.,
>
> --8<---------------cut here---------------start------------->8---
> * item1
> ** this is about item 1 
> about item one
> ** bla bla                      :urgent:
> More bla bla
> ** More about item1
> more about item1
> --8<---------------cut here---------------end--------------->8---
>
> Since org mode relies on the hierarchical structure of outlines, all of
> the subheadings are part of the tree beginning with item1.
>
> Also, how would a region of tagged text appear in the agenda? The agenda
> depends on the association of metadata with headlines.

Tags go with headlines.  The only way to do what you want is with inline
tasks like this:

,----[ .emacs ]
| (require 'org-inlinetask)
`----

,----[ test.org ]
| 
| * item1
| this is about item 1
| *************** subitem1					     :urgent:
| bla bla
| *************** not urgent
| more about item1
`----

HTH

-Bernt

Re: Re: Tagging a region of text without creating a branch

[Andrew Stribblehill]

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So, about inline tasks... what are they for? I've read the code and know
what they do, how to use them etc. But I don't know in what context people
use them.

Why were they created and where are they used?

On Oct 8, 2009 9:28 PM, "Bernt Hansen" <bernt@norang.ca> wrote:

Matt Lundin <mdl@imapmail.org> writes: > bar tomas <bartomas@gmail.com>
writes: > >> Is it possible...
Tags go with headlines.  The only way to do what you want is with inline
tasks like this:

,----[ .emacs ]
| (require 'org-inlinetask)
`----

,----[ test.org ]

| | * item1 | this is about item 1
| *************** subitem1
:urgent:
| bla bla
| *************** not urgent
| more about item1
`----

HTH

-Bernt

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Re: Tagging a region of text without creating a branch

[Matt Lundin]

bar tomas wrote:
> 
> Hi,
> Maybe I use orgmode in a quirky way, but I often find the need of
> tagging internal regions.
>
> I don't have a problem with a creating a heading but what I find
> sometimes inconvenient is that implicitely everything that comes after
> the created headingis in it's scope until the next heading.
> I mean, don't you ever come across a situation like the following?
> 
> * idea1
> Notes about idea1
> More notes about idea1
> still more about idea1

IMO, this is precisely the strength of outlines. You can create
subheadings to organize/categorize your thoughts. But perhaps I still
misunderstand what you are trying to do? I like to think of org
outline headings as data containers or "database records." You attach
metadata (tags, todos, properties, etc.) to the container.

> 
> and you'd like to tag the second line (and only second line with
> :tellSueAboutIt:). If I understand correctly the only way to do this
> with headings is:
> 
> * idea1
> Notes about idea1
> ** :tellSueAboutIt:
> More notes about idea1
> ** :DontTellSueAboutIt:
> still more about idea1
> 
> This is very cumbersome and conceptually confusing.z It would be
> really convenient to sometimes be able to tag an internal region.
> Someone mentioned inline tasks. Is this possible with inline tasks?

Yes. As Bernt suggested, I think inline tasks would achieve your ends
very well here. Inline tasks act like normal headlines for the
purposes of the agenda --- i.e., they will appear in your searches.
But they will not be exported. Neither will they open with other
headlines during cycling.

You can create inline tasks by creating really deep outline headlings
(I believe the default is 15).

Here's an example:

* idea1
  Notes about idea1
*                   *** An inline task :tellSueAboutIt:
  More notes about idea1

*                   *** Another inline task :DontTellSueAboutIt:
  still more about idea1

See the variables org-inlinetask-export and org-inlinetask-min-level.

BTW, There is a mode (freex-mode) that uses pymacs and an external
database to enable tagging of selected "nuggets" of text. But I don't
believe that it works with org-mode. I you don't mind the external
dependencies, you might want to check it out.

http://www.emacswiki.org/cgi-bin/emacs/FreexMode

Hope this helps!
Matt

Re: Re: Tagging a region of text without creating a branch

[Bernt Hansen]

Andrew Stribblehill <ads@wompom.org> writes:

> So, about inline tasks... what are they for? I've read the code and know what they do, how to use
> them etc. But I don't know in what context people use them.
>
> Why were they created and where are they used?

I don't actually use inline tasks (yet) -- I just remembered that this
functionality was added and thought it might apply to solving the OP's
need.

Inline tasks were added on Mar 30 in commit cd6907b but I don't remember
who requested this functionality or what problem it solved.

-Bernt

Re: Tagging a region of text without creating a branch

[bar tomas]

Thanks very much for your reply and your help.
I also think in terms of containers, but I was trying to figure out if
it is possible to have a container that has both subcontainers and
content that is not contained in a subcontainer.
For instance, in XML, this is the notion of an element with 'mixed
content'(subelements+character content). For example:


<item1 priority='A' >
general stuff  about item1
<subItem1> about subItem1 </subItem1>
more general stuff about item1
</item1>

I suppose, this kind of structure is not possible in orgmode?
you'd have to create 'artificial' subheadings:

* item1 [#A]
** general stuff item1
general stuff  about item1
**subItem1
about subItem1
** general stuff item1
more general stuff about item1

So, a container in orgmode can have either subcontainers or text but
not a mixture of both? Is this right?

Thanks also for the tip about freex. it looks interesting, pity its
not compatible with orgmode.
I'll have a look at inline tasks as you suggest.
Thanks again

On Fri, Oct 9, 2009 at 1:53 PM, Matt Lundin <mdl@imapmail.org> wrote:
> bar tomas wrote:
>>
>> Hi,
>> Maybe I use orgmode in a quirky way, but I often find the need of
>> tagging internal regions.
>>
>> I don't have a problem with a creating a heading but what I find
>> sometimes inconvenient is that implicitely everything that comes after
>> the created headingis in it's scope until the next heading.
>> I mean, don't you ever come across a situation like the following?
>>
>> * idea1
>> Notes about idea1
>> More notes about idea1
>> still more about idea1
>
> IMO, this is precisely the strength of outlines. You can create
> subheadings to organize/categorize your thoughts. But perhaps I still
> misunderstand what you are trying to do? I like to think of org
> outline headings as data containers or "database records." You attach
> metadata (tags, todos, properties, etc.) to the container.
>
>>
>> and you'd like to tag the second line (and only second line with
>> :tellSueAboutIt:). If I understand correctly the only way to do this
>> with headings is:
>>
>> * idea1
>> Notes about idea1
>> ** :tellSueAboutIt:
>> More notes about idea1
>> ** :DontTellSueAboutIt:
>> still more about idea1
>>
>> This is very cumbersome and conceptually confusing.z It would be
>> really convenient to sometimes be able to tag an internal region.
>> Someone mentioned inline tasks. Is this possible with inline tasks?
>
> Yes. As Bernt suggested, I think inline tasks would achieve your ends
> very well here. Inline tasks act like normal headlines for the
> purposes of the agenda --- i.e., they will appear in your searches.
> But they will not be exported. Neither will they open with other
> headlines during cycling.
>
> You can create inline tasks by creating really deep outline headlings
> (I believe the default is 15).
>
> Here's an example:
>
> * idea1
>  Notes about idea1
> *                   *** An inline task :tellSueAboutIt:
>  More notes about idea1
>
> *                   *** Another inline task :DontTellSueAboutIt:
>  still more about idea1
>
> See the variables org-inlinetask-export and org-inlinetask-min-level.
>
> BTW, There is a mode (freex-mode) that uses pymacs and an external
> database to enable tagging of selected "nuggets" of text. But I don't
> believe that it works with org-mode. I you don't mind the external
> dependencies, you might want to check it out.
>
> http://www.emacswiki.org/cgi-bin/emacs/FreexMode
>
> Hope this helps!
> Matt
>

Re: Re: Tagging a region of text without creating a branch

[Stephan Schmitt]

bar tomas wrote:
> Thanks very much for your reply and your help.
> I also think in terms of containers, but I was trying to figure out if
> it is possible to have a container that has both subcontainers and
> content that is not contained in a subcontainer.
> For instance, in XML, this is the notion of an element with 'mixed
> content'(subelements+character content). For example:
> 
> 
> <item1 priority='A' >
> general stuff  about item1
> <subItem1> about subItem1 </subItem1>
> more general stuff about item1
> </item1>
> 
> I suppose, this kind of structure is not possible in orgmode?
> you'd have to create 'artificial' subheadings:
> 
> * item1 [#A]
> ** general stuff item1
> general stuff  about item1
> **subItem1
> about subItem1
> ** general stuff item1
> more general stuff about item1
> 
> So, a container in orgmode can have either subcontainers or text but
> not a mixture of both? Is this right?
> 

To be exact, a heading (container) can have both text and subheadings 
(subcontainers), but the subheadings have to follow the text.
You can't close a subheading and go back to the previous outline level without a 
new heading.  I guess, that is a limitation of org-mode (inherited from 
outline-mode) you have to deal with.

Greetings,
	Stephan

Re: Re: Tagging a region of text without creating a branch

[bar tomas]

ok. Many Thanks!

On Fri, Oct 9, 2009 at 3:43 PM, Stephan Schmitt
<drmabuse@cs.tu-berlin.de> wrote:
>
> bar tomas wrote:
>>
>> Thanks very much for your reply and your help.
>> I also think in terms of containers, but I was trying to figure out if
>> it is possible to have a container that has both subcontainers and
>> content that is not contained in a subcontainer.
>> For instance, in XML, this is the notion of an element with 'mixed
>> content'(subelements+character content). For example:
>>
>>
>> <item1 priority='A' >
>> general stuff  about item1
>> <subItem1> about subItem1 </subItem1>
>> more general stuff about item1
>> </item1>
>>
>> I suppose, this kind of structure is not possible in orgmode?
>> you'd have to create 'artificial' subheadings:
>>
>> * item1 [#A]
>> ** general stuff item1
>> general stuff  about item1
>> **subItem1
>> about subItem1
>> ** general stuff item1
>> more general stuff about item1
>>
>> So, a container in orgmode can have either subcontainers or text but
>> not a mixture of both? Is this right?
>>
>
> To be exact, a heading (container) can have both text and subheadings
> (subcontainers), but the subheadings have to follow the text.
> You can't close a subheading and go back to the previous outline level
> without a new heading.  I guess, that is a limitation of org-mode (inherited
> from outline-mode) you have to deal with.
>
> Greetings,
>        Stephan
>

Re: Re: Tagging a region of text without creating a branch

[Carsten Dominik]

On Oct 9, 2009, at 4:05 PM, bar tomas wrote:

> Thanks very much for your reply and your help.
> I also think in terms of containers, but I was trying to figure out if
> it is possible to have a container that has both subcontainers and
> content that is not contained in a subcontainer.
> For instance, in XML, this is the notion of an element with 'mixed
> content'(subelements+character content). For example:
>
>
> <item1 priority='A' >
> general stuff  about item1
> <subItem1> about subItem1 </subItem1>
> more general stuff about item1
> </item1>
>
> I suppose, this kind of structure is not possible in orgmode?
> you'd have to create 'artificial' subheadings:

This type of structure is indeed not possible in a strict outline.
However, inline tasks have been created exactly for the purpose
of working around this restriction.

The idea is to make it possible to define a task right
in the middle of a flow of text.  You can actually have some
content in such a container as well:

* a headline item1
general stuff  about item1
****************** subitem1
    Everything in here belongs to subitem one
****************** END
but here we go on about item one again.

You can achieve a similar structure in org with plain lists:

* a headline item1
   general stuff  about item1
    - subitem1
      Everything in here belongs to subitem one
      and another line
   but here we go on about item one again.

So the structure is right.  However, plain list items do not allow
tags, todo states and all that.  Inlinetasks are a hack to make
this possible.

Matt: Inline tasks are now always exported, the variable
       org-inlinetask-export is obsolete.  Export will look like
       a description list item - in fact, the export uses internally
       description lists.

Hope that this, in connection with all the other answers, will
make it clear.

- Carsten

Re: Re: Tagging a region of text without creating a branch

[Matthew Lundin]

Carsten Dominik wrote:
> 
> Matt: Inline tasks are now always exported, the variable
>        org-inlinetask-export is obsolete.  Export will look like
>        a description list item - in fact, the export uses internally
>        description lists.

Thanks for clarifying this. I had org-inlinetask-export set to nil in
my .emacs (probably from earlier experimentation with the feature).

I see that one can exclude inline tasks with an exclude tag. But in
that case, one has to apply the tag to both headlines. 

*                ** Testing					   :noexport:
Here is a test
*                ** END						   :noexport:

If one leaves the tag off of the END headline, then it is exported in
the HTML. Would there be a way automatically to exclude the END line
even if it does not have an exclude tag.

Thanks,
Matt

Re: Re: Tagging a region of text without creating a branch

[Carsten Dominik]

On Oct 9, 2009, at 7:58 PM, Matthew Lundin wrote:

>
> Carsten Dominik wrote:
>>
>> Matt: Inline tasks are now always exported, the variable
>>       org-inlinetask-export is obsolete.  Export will look like
>>       a description list item - in fact, the export uses internally
>>       description lists.
>
> Thanks for clarifying this. I had org-inlinetask-export set to nil in
> my .emacs (probably from earlier experimentation with the feature).
>
> I see that one can exclude inline tasks with an exclude tag. But in
> that case, one has to apply the tag to both headlines.
>
> *                ** Testing					   :noexport:
> Here is a test
> *                ** END						   :noexport:
>
> If one leaves the tag off of the END headline, then it is exported in
> the HTML. Would there be a way automatically to exclude the END line
> even if it does not have an exclude tag.

Yes, this should now work.  Good catch.

You method with the tag on the END line would even
be harmful, as it removes any text after the END line, up to the next  
heading.

Can you show me the use case for not exporting inline tasks?  Maybe I  
need
to bring that variable back, if there is a good case for it....

- Carsten



- Carsten

Re: Re: Tagging a region of text without creating a branch

[Matt Lundin]

Hi Carsten,

Carsten Dominik wrote:
> 
> Yes, this should now work.  Good catch.
> 
> You method with the tag on the END line would even be harmful, as it
> removes any text after the END line, up to the next heading.
> 
> Can you show me the use case for not exporting inline tasks? Maybe I
> need to bring that variable back, if there is a good case for it....

Now that I am doing more of my writing in org-mode, I plan to use
inline tasks for marking up my drafts with TODOs. These reminders
would be "for my eyes only." When I publish the draft to LaTeX or html
for sharing, I would thus prefer that the inline tasks be excluded.

Thanks!
Matt

Re: Re: Tagging a region of text without creating a branch

[Carsten Dominik]

On Oct 10, 2009, at 5:39 PM, Matt Lundin wrote:

> Hi Carsten,
>
> Carsten Dominik wrote:
>>
>> Yes, this should now work.  Good catch.
>>
>> You method with the tag on the END line would even be harmful, as it
>> removes any text after the END line, up to the next heading.
>>
>> Can you show me the use case for not exporting inline tasks? Maybe I
>> need to bring that variable back, if there is a good case for it....
>
> Now that I am doing more of my writing in org-mode, I plan to use
> inline tasks for marking up my drafts with TODOs. These reminders
> would be "for my eyes only." When I publish the draft to LaTeX or html
> for sharing, I would thus prefer that the inline tasks be excluded.

OK, I have re-introduced the variable org-inlinetask-export, as a  
Boolean.
Do we need to be able to set this on a per-file basis?

- Carsten

Re: Re: Tagging a region of text without creating a branch

[Matt Lundin]

At Mon, 12 Oct 2009 09:29:05 +0200,
Carsten Dominik wrote:
>
> On Oct 10, 2009, at 5:39 PM, Matt Lundin wrote:
> 
> > Hi Carsten,
> >
> > Carsten Dominik wrote:
> >>
> >> Yes, this should now work.  Good catch.
> >>
> >> You method with the tag on the END line would even be harmful, as it
> >> removes any text after the END line, up to the next heading.
> >>
> >> Can you show me the use case for not exporting inline tasks? Maybe I
> >> need to bring that variable back, if there is a good case for it....
> >
> > Now that I am doing more of my writing in org-mode, I plan to use
> > inline tasks for marking up my drafts with TODOs. These reminders
> > would be "for my eyes only." When I publish the draft to LaTeX or html
> > for sharing, I would thus prefer that the inline tasks be excluded.
> 
> OK, I have re-introduced the variable org-inlinetask-export, as a
> Boolean. Do we need to be able to set this on a per-file basis?

Thanks Carsten! An option to set per-file would indeed be nice. For
instance, if I'm working on an article, I might want to share one
version of it without visible inline tasks/comments and another with
them.

That said, I suppose I could use local variables to do this.

- Matt

Re: Re: Tagging a region of text without creating a branch

[Carsten Dominik]

On Oct 12, 2009, at 3:14 PM, Matt Lundin wrote:

> At Mon, 12 Oct 2009 09:29:05 +0200,
> Carsten Dominik wrote:
>>
>> On Oct 10, 2009, at 5:39 PM, Matt Lundin wrote:
>>
>>> Hi Carsten,
>>>
>>> Carsten Dominik wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Yes, this should now work.  Good catch.
>>>>
>>>> You method with the tag on the END line would even be harmful, as  
>>>> it
>>>> removes any text after the END line, up to the next heading.
>>>>
>>>> Can you show me the use case for not exporting inline tasks?  
>>>> Maybe I
>>>> need to bring that variable back, if there is a good case for  
>>>> it....
>>>
>>> Now that I am doing more of my writing in org-mode, I plan to use
>>> inline tasks for marking up my drafts with TODOs. These reminders
>>> would be "for my eyes only." When I publish the draft to LaTeX or  
>>> html
>>> for sharing, I would thus prefer that the inline tasks be excluded.
>>
>> OK, I have re-introduced the variable org-inlinetask-export, as a
>> Boolean. Do we need to be able to set this on a per-file basis?
>
> Thanks Carsten! An option to set per-file would indeed be nice. For
> instance, if I'm working on an article, I might want to share one
> version of it without visible inline tasks/comments and another with
> them.
>
> That said, I suppose I could use local variables to do this.

Local variables will not work, but #+BIND will.

I guess this will be enough....

- Carsten

Re: Tagging a region of text without creating a branch

[Matthew Lundin]

Carsten Dominik <carsten.dominik@gmail.com> writes:

> On Oct 12, 2009, at 3:14 PM, Matt Lundin wrote:
>
>> At Mon, 12 Oct 2009 09:29:05 +0200,
>> Carsten Dominik wrote:
>>>
>>> On Oct 10, 2009, at 5:39 PM, Matt Lundin wrote:
>>>
>>>> Hi Carsten,
>>>>
>>>> Carsten Dominik wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Yes, this should now work.  Good catch.
>>>>>
>>>>> You method with the tag on the END line would even be harmful, as
>>>>> it
>>>>> removes any text after the END line, up to the next heading.
>>>>>
>>>>> Can you show me the use case for not exporting inline tasks?
>>>>> Maybe I
>>>>> need to bring that variable back, if there is a good case for
>>>>> it....
>>>>
>>>> Now that I am doing more of my writing in org-mode, I plan to use
>>>> inline tasks for marking up my drafts with TODOs. These reminders
>>>> would be "for my eyes only." When I publish the draft to LaTeX or
>>>> html
>>>> for sharing, I would thus prefer that the inline tasks be excluded.
>>>
>>> OK, I have re-introduced the variable org-inlinetask-export, as a
>>> Boolean. Do we need to be able to set this on a per-file basis?
>>
>> Thanks Carsten! An option to set per-file would indeed be nice. For
>> instance, if I'm working on an article, I might want to share one
>> version of it without visible inline tasks/comments and another with
>> them.
>>
>> That said, I suppose I could use local variables to do this.
>
> Local variables will not work, but #+BIND will.
>
> I guess this will be enough....

Absolutely!

Thanks again,
Matt