Sad tweet

Sad tweet

[Ypo]

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I've read this:

"Contributing to Emacs is so frustrating. It's not worth it for minor things and if I cannot get some experience and confidence with minor things, then I likely won't ever make major contributions."
https://twitter.com/magit_emacs/status/1396536686570610697?s=19

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Re: Sad tweet

[bandali]

Ypo writes:

> I've read this:
>
> "Contributing to Emacs is so frustrating. It's not worth it for minor
> things and if I cannot get some experience and confidence with minor
> things, then I likely won't ever make major contributions."
> https://twitter.com/magit_emacs/status/1396536686570610697?s=19

Do you know if there is any more context around that?  Did Jonas mention
any specific pain points around contributing to Emacs and/or concrete
things that he thinks could be improved?  Last time I'd seen him post on
emacs-devel it seemed like things were going fairly smoothly with his
work on adding transient to Emacs(?).

Re: Sad tweet

[Kévin Le Gouguec]

(Took the liberty of CC'ing Jonas to make sure he can correct any
mischaracterization, and to show our support, such as it is)

bandali@gnu.org writes:

> Ypo writes:
>
>> I've read this:
>>
>> "Contributing to Emacs is so frustrating. It's not worth it for minor
>> things and if I cannot get some experience and confidence with minor
>> things, then I likely won't ever make major contributions."
>> https://twitter.com/magit_emacs/status/1396536686570610697?s=19
>
> Do you know if there is any more context around that?  Did Jonas mention
> any specific pain points around contributing to Emacs and/or concrete
> things that he thinks could be improved?  Last time I'd seen him post on
> emacs-devel it seemed like things were going fairly smoothly with his
> work on adding transient to Emacs(?).

Given the timing, I'd hazard that this stems from bug#48592 (plus a few
more past attempts that Jonas deems similarly fruitless, I assume).

FWIW, to bounce off Amin's reply: Jonas, the patience you demonstrated
in order to get transient in Emacs core was nothing short of saintly,
and I for one am grateful for your perseverance.

I understand how Emacs's development process can feel frustrating,
especially in Jonas's position as maintainer of a popular package like
Magit:

1. on the one hand, each and every attempt at contributing is met with
   varying degrees of skepticism and defiance, on the premise that you
   might e.g. break other people's code, disrupt other people's
   workflow…

2. on the other hand, upstream sometimes adds major features which
   impact your package, and you wake up to lots of disgruntled users
   expecting you to fix something you never saw coming; cf. :extend t,
   the tentative binding for C-x g…

I don't necessarily view 1 nor 2 as inherently problematic: for 1, we're
lucky to have maintainers looking out for breakage, although the line
between "healthy conservatism" and "clinical sclerosis" is blurry; for
2, users of the development branch or the latest release should expect
some measure of breakage in third-party packages.

As a user, watching from the sidelines, the process "works": third-party
additions slowly make their way upstream after some review and a
generous coating of backward-compatibility/accessibility changes; on the
flip side, bleeding-edge users warn third-party maintainers of upcoming
changes which can then be amended before they make it into a release.

Even so, as a third-party maintainer, I assume the combination of 1 and
2 feels like a "power imbalance": one party makes the other's life
consistently harder.

So, once more with feeling: thank you Jonas for your patience and your
perserverance 🙏


Disclaimer: I'm very much just a user, whose free time is mostly gobbled
up catching up with the mailing lists.  This reply is my interpretation
of what I observe and may not be representative of anybody else's
feelings on the subject.

(✿╹◡╹) there are always ways to go - Re: Sad tweet

[Jean Louis]

* Ypo <ypuntot@gmail.com> [2021-05-24 00:30]:
> I've read this:
> 
> "Contributing to Emacs is so frustrating. It's not worth it for minor things and if I cannot get some experience and confidence with minor things, then I likely won't ever make major contributions."
> https://twitter.com/magit_emacs/status/1396536686570610697?s=19

Alright, but no need for desperation. There is a way forward.

Make your own package, see (info "(elisp) Packaging")

As when you make your own package you are extending Emacs.

Then apply the package to be included in GNU ELPA:
https://elpa.gnu.org on emacs-devel@gnu.org mailing list.

That way you are contributing to GNU Emacs.

Your package can improve some functions and thus get kudos from other
users.

Then it becomes so much easier to point out to your improvements and
propose them to mainstream Emacs or Org mode.

-- 
Jean

Take action in Free Software Foundation campaigns:
https://www.fsf.org/campaigns

Sign an open letter in support of Richard M. Stallman
https://stallmansupport.org/

Re: (✿╹◡╹) there are always ways to go - Re: Sad tweet

[Ypo]

I think he is the creator of the magit package.

May 24, 2021 23:02:56 Jean Louis <bugs@gnu.support>:

> * Ypo <ypuntot@gmail.com> [2021-05-24 00:30]:
>> I've read this:
>> 
>> "Contributing to Emacs is so frustrating. It's not worth it for minor things and if I cannot get some experience and confidence with minor things, then I likely won't ever make major contributions."
>> https://twitter.com/magit_emacs/status/1396536686570610697?s=19
> 
> Alright, but no need for desperation. There is a way forward.
> 
> Make your own package, see (info "(elisp) Packaging")
> 
> As when you make your own package you are extending Emacs.
> 
> Then apply the package to be included in GNU ELPA:
> https://elpa.gnu.org on emacs-devel@gnu.org mailing list.
> 
> That way you are contributing to GNU Emacs.
> 
> Your package can improve some functions and thus get kudos from other
> users.
> 
> Then it becomes so much easier to point out to your improvements and
> propose them to mainstream Emacs or Org mode.
> 
> --
> Jean
> 
> Take action in Free Software Foundation campaigns:
> https://www.fsf.org/campaigns
> 
> Sign an open letter in support of Richard M. Stallman
> https://stallmansupport.org/

Re: there are always ways to go - Re: Sad tweet

[Jean Louis]

* Ypo <ypuntot@gmail.com> [2021-05-25 06:09]:
> I think he is the creator of the magit package.

OK, it's not Org related and is not a direct post... It is just
an attention seeking... Tweet.

I am following emacs-devel mailing list, who wish to contribute
package to Emacs is very welcome to do so, and it is very
straightforward.

Best way to start improvement is in my opinion with the package
creation.

Those who wish to make changes in the core have to discuss it with
Emacs core developers, that is how it is, as newly introduced ideas
are not necessarily thought well for millions of users.

-- 
Jean

Take action in Free Software Foundation campaigns:
https://www.fsf.org/campaigns

Sign an open letter in support of Richard M. Stallman
https://stallmansupport.org/

Re: there are always ways to go - Re: Sad tweet

[Matt Price]

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I am not an emacs contributor, but I think Jonas is saying, "I love emacs
and I am the primary author of one of the two most important emacs
packages. If contributing to emacs is frustrating even for me, think how
many people will give up. We need to change our culture." I would be very
careful about describing him as "attention-seeking." He is a very diligent
and responsive package maintainer who works *constantly* to improve an
important piece of emacs infrastructure.

On Tue., May 25, 2021, 2:53 a.m. Jean Louis, <bugs@gnu.support> wrote:

> * Ypo <ypuntot@gmail.com> [2021-05-25 06:09]:
> > I think he is the creator of the magit package.
>
> OK, it's not Org related and is not a direct post... It is just
> an attention seeking... Tweet.
>
> I am following emacs-devel mailing list, who wish to contribute
> package to Emacs is very welcome to do so, and it is very
> straightforward.
>
> Best way to start improvement is in my opinion with the package
> creation.
>
> Those who wish to make changes in the core have to discuss it with
> Emacs core developers, that is how it is, as newly introduced ideas
> are not necessarily thought well for millions of users.
>
> --
> Jean
>
> Take action in Free Software Foundation campaigns:
> https://www.fsf.org/campaigns
>
> Sign an open letter in support of Richard M. Stallman
> https://stallmansupport.org/
>
>

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Re: Sad tweet

[Bastien]

Hi all,

Kévin Le Gouguec <kevin.legouguec@gmail.com> writes:

> FWIW, to bounce off Amin's reply: Jonas, the patience you demonstrated
> in order to get transient in Emacs core was nothing short of saintly,
> and I for one am grateful for your perseverance.

Seconded.  Also, I wish someone could volunteer to start migrating to
transient for Org's menus.

Anyone?

-- 
 Bastien

Re: Sad tweet

[Timothy]

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Hi Bastien,

> Anyone?

I have some experience with Transient, and I’m willing to give this a go.
However, I am fairly busy for the immediate future, and so I’d say the ETA is on
the order of months.

All the best,
Timothy

Re: Sad tweet

[Bastien]

Timothy <tecosaur@gmail.com> writes:

> I have some experience with Transient, and I’m willing to give this a go.
> However, I am fairly busy for the immediate future, and so I’d say
> the ETA is on the order of months.

Sure!  Take your time -- and thanks for undertaking this.

Re: Sad tweet

[Corwin Brust]

I screen capped this from a non-free tool I've been using because some
of us our lazy when we must be stubborn, and anyway, hth:

https://bru.st/i/Discord_RVagphlqok.png

On Sun, May 23, 2021 at 4:29 PM Ypo <ypuntot@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> I've read this:
>
> "Contributing to Emacs is so frustrating. It's not worth it for minor things and if I cannot get some experience and confidence with minor things, then I likely won't ever make major contributions."
> https://twitter.com/magit_emacs/status/1396536686570610697?s=19



-- 
Corwin
612-217-1742
612-695-4276 (signal)
corwin@bru.st