Orgmode and Unicode characters

Orgmode and Unicode characters

[Dov Grobgeld]

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Even though this announcement looks very cool, this again reminded me of
something I've been thinking off when using orgmode. And that is the use of
unicode characters. With the latest versions of emacs that support unicode
and with rich fonts such as DejaVu Monospace, it is as easy to use unicode
characters as ascii. What I was thinking of is that the current ascii
graphics of e.g. tables could automatically be switched to box drawing
characters (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Box-drawing_characters) when
pressing C-c or Tab. Other characters that could be used are automatic
replacement of leading asterisks to various bullets. Each indentation level
could be given a different bullets. E.g. "*"==▸, "**"==●, etc. I'm sure that
arrows and various brackets may also be useful for various contexts.

Of course the use of these characters would be configurable and would be
turned off automatically for buffers that are not UTF-8 encoded.

Perhaps I'll one day learn the inner workings of org-mode sufficiently to do
this myself, but if there is someone who meanwhile wants to pick up the
idea, you're welcome!

Regards,
Dov

On Mon, Dec 6, 2010 at 09:05, Nathan Neff <nathan.neff@gmail.com> wrote:

> Much easier to read, and I love the nesting/indenting of
> sub-headings.
>
> http://nateneff.com/   - Need to understand org-mode-clockreport-rules.html<http://nateneff.com/org-mode-clockreport-rules.html>
>
> --Nate
>
> _______________________________________________
> Emacs-orgmode mailing list
> Please use `Reply All' to send replies to the list.
> Emacs-orgmode@gnu.org
> http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/emacs-orgmode
>

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Re: Orgmode and Unicode characters

[Darlan Cavalcante Moreira]

If changing the actual character in the file is be the best option (maybe
it could cause problems for the exporters), then an approach similar to
org-pretty-entities could be used for this.

--
Darlan

At Mon, 6 Dec 2010 11:19:55 +0200,
Dov Grobgeld <dov.grobgeld@gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> Even though this announcement looks very cool, this again reminded me of
> something I've been thinking off when using orgmode. And that is the use of
> unicode characters. With the latest versions of emacs that support unicode
> and with rich fonts such as DejaVu Monospace, it is as easy to use unicode
> characters as ascii. What I was thinking of is that the current ascii
> graphics of e.g. tables could automatically be switched to box drawing
> characters (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Box-drawing_characters) when
> pressing C-c or Tab. Other characters that could be used are automatic
> replacement of leading asterisks to various bullets. Each indentation level
> could be given a different bullets. E.g. "*"==▸, "**"==●, etc. I'm sure that
> arrows and various brackets may also be useful for various contexts.
> 
> Of course the use of these characters would be configurable and would be
> turned off automatically for buffers that are not UTF-8 encoded.
> 
> Perhaps I'll one day learn the inner workings of org-mode sufficiently to do
> this myself, but if there is someone who meanwhile wants to pick up the
> idea, you're welcome!
> 
> Regards,
> Dov
> 
> On Mon, Dec 6, 2010 at 09:05, Nathan Neff <nathan.neff@gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> > Much easier to read, and I love the nesting/indenting of
> > sub-headings.
> >
> > http://nateneff.com/   - Need to understand org-mode-clockreport-rules.html<http://nateneff.com/org-mode-clockreport-rules.html>
> >
> > --Nate
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Emacs-orgmode mailing list
> > Please use `Reply All' to send replies to the list.
> > Emacs-orgmode@gnu.org
> > http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/emacs-orgmode
> >

Re: Orgmode and Unicode characters

[Carsten Dominik]

On Dec 6, 2010, at 10:19 AM, Dov Grobgeld wrote:

> Even though this announcement looks very cool,

What does "this announcement" refer to, Dov?

- Carsten

> this again reminded me of something I've been thinking off when  
> using orgmode. And that is the use of unicode characters. With the  
> latest versions of emacs that support unicode and with rich fonts  
> such as DejaVu Monospace, it is as easy to use unicode characters as  
> ascii. What I was thinking of is that the current ascii graphics of  
> e.g. tables could automatically be switched to box drawing  
> characters (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Box-drawing_characters)  
> when pressing C-c or Tab. Other characters that could be used are  
> automatic replacement of leading asterisks to various bullets. Each  
> indentation level could be given a different bullets. E.g. "*"==▸,  
> "**"==●, etc. I'm sure that arrows and various brackets may also be  
> useful for various contexts.
>
> Of course the use of these characters would be configurable and  
> would be turned off automatically for buffers that are not UTF-8  
> encoded.
>
> Perhaps I'll one day learn the inner workings of org-mode  
> sufficiently to do this myself, but if there is someone who  
> meanwhile wants to pick up the idea, you're welcome!
>
> Regards,
> Dov
>
> On Mon, Dec 6, 2010 at 09:05, Nathan Neff <nathan.neff@gmail.com>  
> wrote:
> Much easier to read, and I love the nesting/indenting of
> sub-headings.
>
> http://nateneff.com/   - Need to understand org-mode-clockreport- 
> rules.html
>
> --Nate
>
> _______________________________________________
> Emacs-orgmode mailing list
> Please use `Reply All' to send replies to the list.
> Emacs-orgmode@gnu.org
> http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/emacs-orgmode
>
> _______________________________________________
> Emacs-orgmode mailing list
> Please use `Reply All' to send replies to the list.
> Emacs-orgmode@gnu.org
> http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/emacs-orgmode

- Carsten

Re: Orgmode and Unicode characters

[Eric Schulte]

My only worry on this front is that I know how to type "|" and "-" for
tables, and how to type "*" for headings, but I don't have an easy way
to type utf8 characters.

If Org-mode starts using exotic utf8 characters which can not easily be
typed from outside of Org-mode then it loses some of the "it's all plain
text" appeal.

I agree with Darlan that something using Emacs display functionality
(like used by org-pretty-entities) could be preferable because it would
preserve the underlying text.

Best -- Eric

Darlan Cavalcante Moreira <darcamo@gmail.com> writes:

> If changing the actual character in the file is be the best option (maybe
> it could cause problems for the exporters), then an approach similar to
> org-pretty-entities could be used for this.
>
> --
> Darlan
>
> At Mon, 6 Dec 2010 11:19:55 +0200,
> Dov Grobgeld <dov.grobgeld@gmail.com> wrote:
>> 
>> Even though this announcement looks very cool, this again reminded me of
>> something I've been thinking off when using orgmode. And that is the use of
>> unicode characters. With the latest versions of emacs that support unicode
>> and with rich fonts such as DejaVu Monospace, it is as easy to use unicode
>> characters as ascii. What I was thinking of is that the current ascii
>> graphics of e.g. tables could automatically be switched to box drawing
>> characters (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Box-drawing_characters) when
>> pressing C-c or Tab. Other characters that could be used are automatic
>> replacement of leading asterisks to various bullets. Each indentation level
>> could be given a different bullets. E.g. "*"==▸, "**"==●, etc. I'm sure that
>> arrows and various brackets may also be useful for various contexts.
>> 
>> Of course the use of these characters would be configurable and would be
>> turned off automatically for buffers that are not UTF-8 encoded.
>> 
>> Perhaps I'll one day learn the inner workings of org-mode sufficiently to do
>> this myself, but if there is someone who meanwhile wants to pick up the
>> idea, you're welcome!
>> 
>> Regards,
>> Dov
>> 
>> On Mon, Dec 6, 2010 at 09:05, Nathan Neff <nathan.neff@gmail.com> wrote:
>> 
>> > Much easier to read, and I love the nesting/indenting of
>> > sub-headings.
>> >
>> > http://nateneff.com/   - Need to understand org-mode-clockreport-rules.html<http://nateneff.com/org-mode-clockreport-rules.html>
>> >
>> > --Nate
>> >
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > Emacs-orgmode mailing list
>> > Please use `Reply All' to send replies to the list.
>> > Emacs-orgmode@gnu.org
>> > http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/emacs-orgmode
>> >
>
> _______________________________________________
> Emacs-orgmode mailing list
> Please use `Reply All' to send replies to the list.
> Emacs-orgmode@gnu.org
> http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/emacs-orgmode

Re: Orgmode and Unicode characters

[Dan Davison]

"Eric Schulte" <schulte.eric@gmail.com> writes:

> My only worry on this front is that I know how to type "|" and "-" for
> tables, and how to type "*" for headings, but I don't have an easy way
> to type utf8 characters.
>
> If Org-mode starts using exotic utf8 characters which can not easily be
> typed from outside of Org-mode then it loses some of the "it's all plain
> text" appeal.
>
> I agree with Darlan that something using Emacs display functionality
> (like used by org-pretty-entities) could be preferable because it would

Hi Eric,

I've never quite understood how the pretty entities stuff works. Is it
related to text (display) properties or overlays? Would you mind giving
a quick explanation?

Dan

> preserve the underlying text.
>
> Best -- Eric
>
> Darlan Cavalcante Moreira <darcamo@gmail.com> writes:
>
>> If changing the actual character in the file is be the best option (maybe
>> it could cause problems for the exporters), then an approach similar to
>> org-pretty-entities could be used for this.
>>
>> --
>> Darlan
>>
>> At Mon, 6 Dec 2010 11:19:55 +0200,
>> Dov Grobgeld <dov.grobgeld@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> 
>>> Even though this announcement looks very cool, this again reminded me of
>>> something I've been thinking off when using orgmode. And that is the use of
>>> unicode characters. With the latest versions of emacs that support unicode
>>> and with rich fonts such as DejaVu Monospace, it is as easy to use unicode
>>> characters as ascii. What I was thinking of is that the current ascii
>>> graphics of e.g. tables could automatically be switched to box drawing
>>> characters (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Box-drawing_characters) when
>>> pressing C-c or Tab. Other characters that could be used are automatic
>>> replacement of leading asterisks to various bullets. Each indentation level
>>> could be given a different bullets. E.g. "*"==▸, "**"==●, etc. I'm sure that
>>> arrows and various brackets may also be useful for various contexts.
>>> 
>>> Of course the use of these characters would be configurable and would be
>>> turned off automatically for buffers that are not UTF-8 encoded.
>>> 
>>> Perhaps I'll one day learn the inner workings of org-mode sufficiently to do
>>> this myself, but if there is someone who meanwhile wants to pick up the
>>> idea, you're welcome!
>>> 
>>> Regards,
>>> Dov
>>> 
>>> On Mon, Dec 6, 2010 at 09:05, Nathan Neff <nathan.neff@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> 
>>> > Much easier to read, and I love the nesting/indenting of
>>> > sub-headings.
>>> >
>>> > http://nateneff.com/   - Need to understand org-mode-clockreport-rules.html<http://nateneff.com/org-mode-clockreport-rules.html>
>>> >
>>> > --Nate
>>> >
>>> > _______________________________________________
>>> > Emacs-orgmode mailing list
>>> > Please use `Reply All' to send replies to the list.
>>> > Emacs-orgmode@gnu.org
>>> > http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/emacs-orgmode
>>> >
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Emacs-orgmode mailing list
>> Please use `Reply All' to send replies to the list.
>> Emacs-orgmode@gnu.org
>> http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/emacs-orgmode
>
> _______________________________________________
> Emacs-orgmode mailing list
> Please use `Reply All' to send replies to the list.
> Emacs-orgmode@gnu.org
> http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/emacs-orgmode

Re: Orgmode and Unicode characters

[Dov Grobgeld]

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The way I see it, within org-mode you wouldn't have to change anything in
your input, but C-c C-c or other hot keys would do the change automatically.
But I really don't mind if the underlying buffer stays the same, but only
the display changes.

Secondly, typing Unicode characters is pretty easy in emacs through its
input modes. I have recently working on a special input mode for the
key-starved N900 keyboard and it is really simple through quail. For box
characters, you may e.g. use input mode rfc1345 through C-\ rfc1345, and
then type:

&dr&hh&dl
&vv &vv
&ur&hh&ul"

which results in:
┌─┐
│ │
└─┘
Obviously the display of these fancy characters is only syntactic suger, but
so is the use of font colors in the buffer.

Regards,
Dov

On Mon, Dec 6, 2010 at 16:58, Eric Schulte <schulte.eric@gmail.com> wrote:

> My only worry on this front is that I know how to type "|" and "-" for
> tables, and how to type "*" for headings, but I don't have an easy way
> to type utf8 characters.
>
> If Org-mode starts using exotic utf8 characters which can not easily be
> typed from outside of Org-mode then it loses some of the "it's all plain
> text" appeal.
>
> I agree with Darlan that something using Emacs display functionality
> (like used by org-pretty-entities) could be preferable because it would
> preserve the underlying text.
>
> Best -- Eric
>
> Darlan Cavalcante Moreira <darcamo@gmail.com> writes:
>
> > If changing the actual character in the file is be the best option (maybe
> > it could cause problems for the exporters), then an approach similar to
> > org-pretty-entities could be used for this.
> >
> > --
> > Darlan
> >
> > At Mon, 6 Dec 2010 11:19:55 +0200,
> > Dov Grobgeld <dov.grobgeld@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>
> >> Even though this announcement looks very cool, this again reminded me of
> >> something I've been thinking off when using orgmode. And that is the use
> of
> >> unicode characters. With the latest versions of emacs that support
> unicode
> >> and with rich fonts such as DejaVu Monospace, it is as easy to use
> unicode
> >> characters as ascii. What I was thinking of is that the current ascii
> >> graphics of e.g. tables could automatically be switched to box drawing
> >> characters (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Box-drawing_characters) when
> >> pressing C-c or Tab. Other characters that could be used are automatic
> >> replacement of leading asterisks to various bullets. Each indentation
> level
> >> could be given a different bullets. E.g. "*"==▸, "**"==●, etc. I'm sure
> that
> >> arrows and various brackets may also be useful for various contexts.
> >>
> >> Of course the use of these characters would be configurable and would be
> >> turned off automatically for buffers that are not UTF-8 encoded.
> >>
> >> Perhaps I'll one day learn the inner workings of org-mode sufficiently
> to do
> >> this myself, but if there is someone who meanwhile wants to pick up the
> >> idea, you're welcome!
> >>
> >> Regards,
> >> Dov
> >>
> >> On Mon, Dec 6, 2010 at 09:05, Nathan Neff <nathan.neff@gmail.com>
> wrote:
> >>
> >> > Much easier to read, and I love the nesting/indenting of
> >> > sub-headings.
> >> >
> >> > http://nateneff.com/   - Need to understand
> org-mode-clockreport-rules.html<
> http://nateneff.com/org-mode-clockreport-rules.html>
> >> >
> >> > --Nate
> >> >
> >> > _______________________________________________
> >> > Emacs-orgmode mailing list
> >> > Please use `Reply All' to send replies to the list.
> >> > Emacs-orgmode@gnu.org
> >> > http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/emacs-orgmode
> >> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Emacs-orgmode mailing list
> > Please use `Reply All' to send replies to the list.
> > Emacs-orgmode@gnu.org
> > http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/emacs-orgmode
>

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Re: Orgmode and Unicode characters

[Dov Grobgeld]

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It was the posting by Nathan Neff which I am sure that I totally
misinterpret, but used as an excuse for my blurb. :-)

Dov

On Mon, Dec 6, 2010 at 16:51, Carsten Dominik <carsten.dominik@gmail.com>wrote:

>
> On Dec 6, 2010, at 10:19 AM, Dov Grobgeld wrote:
>
>  Even though this announcement looks very cool,
>>
>
> What does "this announcement" refer to, Dov?
>
> - Carsten
>
>
>  this again reminded me of something I've been thinking off when using
>> orgmode. And that is the use of unicode characters. With the latest versions
>> of emacs that support unicode and with rich fonts such as DejaVu Monospace,
>> it is as easy to use unicode characters as ascii. What I was thinking of is
>> that the current ascii graphics of e.g. tables could automatically be
>> switched to box drawing characters (
>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Box-drawing_characters) when pressing C-c or
>> Tab. Other characters that could be used are automatic replacement of
>> leading asterisks to various bullets. Each indentation level could be given
>> a different bullets. E.g. "*"==▸, "**"==●, etc. I'm sure that arrows and
>> various brackets may also be useful for various contexts.
>>
>> Of course the use of these characters would be configurable and would be
>> turned off automatically for buffers that are not UTF-8 encoded.
>>
>> Perhaps I'll one day learn the inner workings of org-mode sufficiently to
>> do this myself, but if there is someone who meanwhile wants to pick up the
>> idea, you're welcome!
>>
>> Regards,
>> Dov
>>
>> On Mon, Dec 6, 2010 at 09:05, Nathan Neff <nathan.neff@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Much easier to read, and I love the nesting/indenting of
>> sub-headings.
>>
>> http://nateneff.com/   - Need to understand
>> org-mode-clockreport-rules.html
>>
>> --Nate
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Emacs-orgmode mailing list
>> Please use `Reply All' to send replies to the list.
>> Emacs-orgmode@gnu.org
>> http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/emacs-orgmode
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Emacs-orgmode mailing list
>> Please use `Reply All' to send replies to the list.
>> Emacs-orgmode@gnu.org
>> http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/emacs-orgmode
>>
>
> - Carsten
>
>
>
>

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Re: Orgmode and Unicode characters

[Eric S Fraga]

Dov Grobgeld <dov.grobgeld@gmail.com> writes:

> The way I see it, within org-mode you wouldn't have to change
> anything in your input, but C-c C-c or other hot keys would do the
> change automatically. But I really don't mind if the underlying
> buffer stays the same, but only the display changes.

Yes, I think the underlying buffer should remain the same.  Whether you
use fancy utf chars to display headings etc should be similar to
pretty-entities and font-locking, in my view.

> Secondly, typing Unicode characters is pretty easy in emacs through
> its input modes. I have recently working on a special input mode for
> the key-starved N900 keyboard and it is really simple through quail.
> For box characters, you may e.g. use input mode rfc1345 through C-\
> rfc1345, and then type:

rfc1345 is nice; other favourites are =ucs= for the full unicode
character set and =tex= which allows you to use latex commands to type
in specific characters (e.g. \rightarrow will actually put in →).

-- 
: Eric S Fraga (GnuPG: 0xC89193D8FFFCF67D) in Emacs 23.2.1
: using Org-mode version 7.3 (release_7.3.221.gb3e16)