Re: org-plus-contrib, where is library-of-babel.org?

Re: org-plus-contrib, where is library-of-babel.org?

[edgar]

> Date: Thu, 06 Jul 2017 05:55:01 -1000
> From: "Thomas S. Dye" <tsd@tsdye.com>
> Subject: Re: [O] org-plus-contrib, where is library-of-babel.org?
> Message-ID: <m2r2xtpnl6.fsf@tsdye.com>
> 
> I'm wondering where to find library-of-babel.org in the ELPA
> distribution of Org mode, org-plus-contrib.
The only thing that I could do was create a file and load it every time 
with ~org-babel-lob-ingest~. I hope that helps you, and that you get 
your answer. I am also interested to know.

P.S. sorry for my last reply to the Org-mode mailing list. I should have 
checked the subject.

-------------------------------------------------

ONLY AT VFEmail! - Use our Metadata Mitigator to keep your email out of the NSA's hands!
$24.95 ONETIME Lifetime accounts with Privacy Features!  
15GB disk! No bandwidth quotas!
Commercial and Bulk Mail Options!  

Re: org-plus-contrib, where is library-of-babel.org?

[Thomas S. Dye]

Aloha edgar@openmail.cc,

edgar@openmail.cc writes:

>> Date: Thu, 06 Jul 2017 05:55:01 -1000
>> From: "Thomas S. Dye" <tsd@tsdye.com>
>> Subject: Re: [O] org-plus-contrib, where is library-of-babel.org?
>> Message-ID: <m2r2xtpnl6.fsf@tsdye.com>
>>
>> I'm wondering where to find library-of-babel.org in the ELPA
>> distribution of Org mode, org-plus-contrib.
> The only thing that I could do was create a file and load it every time
> with ~org-babel-lob-ingest~. I hope that helps you, and that you get
> your answer. I am also interested to know.

Thanks for your response.

Apparently, library-of-babel.org is not distributed with the Org mode
that ships with emacs.  Not sure why that is.  I'm guessing it's a
license issue?

The ELPA package, org-plus-contrib, appears to mimic the emacs
distribution of Org mode, rather than replicate the development master
branch, which is where I used to find the library.

I'm using org-plus-contrib since I moved to spacemacs a while back.

Does anyone else use org-plus-contrib and library-of-babel.org?  Any
suggestions on how to track and install library-of-babel.org in this
situation?

All the best,
Tom

--
Thomas S. Dye
http://www.tsdye.com

Re: org-plus-contrib, where is library-of-babel.org?

[Rasmus]

"Thomas S. Dye" <tsd@tsdye.com> writes:

> Aloha edgar@openmail.cc,
>
> edgar@openmail.cc writes:
>
>>> Date: Thu, 06 Jul 2017 05:55:01 -1000
>>> From: "Thomas S. Dye" <tsd@tsdye.com>
>>> Subject: Re: [O] org-plus-contrib, where is library-of-babel.org?
>>> Message-ID: <m2r2xtpnl6.fsf@tsdye.com>
>>>
>>> I'm wondering where to find library-of-babel.org in the ELPA
>>> distribution of Org mode, org-plus-contrib.
>> The only thing that I could do was create a file and load it every time
>> with ~org-babel-lob-ingest~. I hope that helps you, and that you get
>> your answer. I am also interested to know.
>
> Thanks for your response.
>
> Apparently, library-of-babel.org is not distributed with the Org mode
> that ships with emacs.  Not sure why that is.  I'm guessing it's a
> license issue?

It will be in the next release (in /emacs/etc/org/).  If there's a license
issue it needs to be removed.

    http://git.savannah.gnu.org/cgit/emacs.git/tree/etc/org

Rasmus

-- 
What will be next?

Re: org-plus-contrib, where is library-of-babel.org?

[Kyle Meyer]

Rasmus <rasmus@gmx.us> writes:

> "Thomas S. Dye" <tsd@tsdye.com> writes:

[...]

>> Apparently, library-of-babel.org is not distributed with the Org mode
>> that ships with emacs.  Not sure why that is.  I'm guessing it's a
>> license issue?
>
> It will be in the next release (in /emacs/etc/org/).  If there's a license
> issue it needs to be removed.
>
>     http://git.savannah.gnu.org/cgit/emacs.git/tree/etc/org

On the Emacs list, Glenn asked us to add a license to
library-of-babel.org:

    https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/emacs-devel/2017-07/msg00169.html

At the time, I wondered whether that file had any contributors without
copyright assignment.  I briefly looked through the list of authors
touching library-of-babel.org in the Org repo and the worg repo, and I
didn't find any contributors that aren't included in the assignment list
at http://orgmode.org/worg/org-contribute.html

-- 
Kyle

Re: org-plus-contrib, where is library-of-babel.org?

[Rasmus]

Kyle Meyer <kyle@kyleam.com> writes:

> Rasmus <rasmus@gmx.us> writes:
>
>> "Thomas S. Dye" <tsd@tsdye.com> writes:
>
> [...]
>
>>> Apparently, library-of-babel.org is not distributed with the Org mode
>>> that ships with emacs.  Not sure why that is.  I'm guessing it's a
>>> license issue?
>>
>> It will be in the next release (in /emacs/etc/org/).  If there's a license
>> issue it needs to be removed.
>>
>>     http://git.savannah.gnu.org/cgit/emacs.git/tree/etc/org
>
> On the Emacs list, Glenn asked us to add a license to
> library-of-babel.org:
>
>     https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/emacs-devel/2017-07/msg00169.html

Thanks, I missed that.

Should I add the copyright header to Emacs repo and we backport it from
there, or is it better to add it via a forthcoming 9.0.10 update?

> At the time, I wondered whether that file had any contributors without
> copyright assignment.  I briefly looked through the list of authors
> touching library-of-babel.org in the Org repo and the worg repo, and I
> didn't find any contributors that aren't included in the assignment list
> at http://orgmode.org/worg/org-contribute.html

Great.  Thanks.

Rasmus

-- 
El Rey ha muerto. ¡Larga vida al Rey!

Re: org-plus-contrib, where is library-of-babel.org?

[Kyle Meyer]

Rasmus <rasmus@gmx.us> writes:

> Kyle Meyer <kyle@kyleam.com> writes:

[...]

>> On the Emacs list, Glenn asked us to add a license to
>> library-of-babel.org:
>>
>>     https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/emacs-devel/2017-07/msg00169.html
>
> Thanks, I missed that.
>
> Should I add the copyright header to Emacs repo and we backport it from
> there, or is it better to add it via a forthcoming 9.0.10 update?

Please make the change directly in the Emacs repo.  That way the Emacs
developers know it's been addressed, and we minimize the time that the
file is in the Emacs tree without a copyright header.

Thanks.

-- 
Kyle

Re: org-plus-contrib, where is library-of-babel.org?

[Bastien Guerry]

Hi Kyle,

Kyle Meyer <kyle@kyleam.com> writes:

> On the Emacs list, Glenn asked us to add a license to
> library-of-babel.org:
>
>     https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/emacs-devel/2017-07/msg00169.html

thanks for the heads up -- I'm focusing on my work this week and I
won't have time to deal with orgmode requests until this week-end,
but I will then.

> At the time, I wondered whether that file had any contributors without
> copyright assignment.  I briefly looked through the list of authors
> touching library-of-babel.org in the Org repo and the worg repo, and I
> didn't find any contributors that aren't included in the assignment list
> at http://orgmode.org/worg/org-contribute.html

Thanks for checking this.

In general, if some contributors are not listed on org-contribute.html
I can also check on the GNU server for the list of people with copyright
assignment.

I suggest using the same copyright conditions than the one we have for
Worg documentation:

  Documentation from the http://orgmode.org/worg/ website (either in
  its HTML format or in its Org format) is licensed under the GNU Free
  Documentation License version 1.3 or later.  The code examples and
  css stylesheets are licensed under the GNU General Public License v3
  or later.

But: I would first consider whether this file should be part of Emacs
and Org's core.  I think it should be on Worg instead, to get a chance
to be maintained by more contributors.

What do you think?

-- 
 Bastien

Re: org-plus-contrib, where is library-of-babel.org?

[Bastien Guerry]

Kyle Meyer <kyle@kyleam.com> writes:

>>> Apparently, library-of-babel.org is not distributed with the Org mode
>>> that ships with emacs.  Not sure why that is.  I'm guessing it's a
>>> license issue?
>>
>> It will be in the next release (in /emacs/etc/org/).  If there's a license
>> issue it needs to be removed.

The reason why this library-of-babel.org was not in Emacs is not
because of its lack of license.  I guess it's because Carsten and
Eric didn't think of it as something that should land in Emacs.

Hence my will to clarify this by moving it to Worg, where it will
be more easily accessed.

-- 
 Bastien

Re: org-plus-contrib, where is library-of-babel.org?

[Kyle Meyer]

Hi Bastien,

Bastien Guerry <bzg@bzg.fr> writes:

> Kyle Meyer <kyle@kyleam.com> writes:

Note that that's not me writing any of that :)

>>>> Apparently, library-of-babel.org is not distributed with the Org mode
>>>> that ships with emacs.  Not sure why that is.  I'm guessing it's a
>>>> license issue?
>>>
>>> It will be in the next release (in /emacs/etc/org/).  If there's a license
>>> issue it needs to be removed.
>
> The reason why this library-of-babel.org was not in Emacs is not
> because of its lack of license.  I guess it's because Carsten and
> Eric didn't think of it as something that should land in Emacs.
>
> Hence my will to clarify this by moving it to Worg, where it will
> be more easily accessed.

Sounds reasonable to me.  I don't have a good understanding of
library-of-babel.org and have never used it, though, so my opinion
shouldn't count for much either way.

Thanks.

-- 
Kyle

Re: org-plus-contrib, where is library-of-babel.org?

[Rasmus]

Bastien Guerry <bzg@bzg.fr> writes:

> Kyle Meyer <kyle@kyleam.com> writes:
>
>>>> Apparently, library-of-babel.org is not distributed with the Org mode
>>>> that ships with emacs.  Not sure why that is.  I'm guessing it's a
>>>> license issue?
>>>
>>> It will be in the next release (in /emacs/etc/org/).  If there's a license
>>> issue it needs to be removed.
>
> The reason why this library-of-babel.org was not in Emacs is not
> because of its lack of license.  I guess it's because Carsten and
> Eric didn't think of it as something that should land in Emacs.

Fine by me, but then let’s remove the references to it in the manual.

> Hence my will to clarify this by moving it to Worg, where it will
> be more easily accessed.

I personally do not see how that is more easily accessible.  If part of
Org, it’s already there when I start Emacs.  If it lives in Worg, the user
must first wget it and tell Emacs how to find it.

Rasmus

-- 
9000!

Re: org-plus-contrib, where is library-of-babel.org?

[Grant Rettke]

On Tue, Jul 11, 2017 at 5:13 AM, Rasmus <rasmus@gmx.us> wrote:
>
> Bastien Guerry <bzg@bzg.fr> writes:
> > Kyle Meyer <kyle@kyleam.com> writes:
> >>> It will be in the next release (in /emacs/etc/org/).  If there's a license
> >>> issue it needs to be removed.
> >
> > The reason why this library-of-babel.org was not in Emacs is not
> > because of its lack of license.  I guess it's because Carsten and
> > Eric didn't think of it as something that should land in Emacs.
>
> Fine by me, but then let’s remove the references to it in the manual.

Maybe the feature could be referred to "Babel Libraries" or "Code
Block Libraries". Because they provide re-usable libraries. The
"library of babel" reads like there is just one of them, but there are
as many as you wish aka "Libraries of Babel". I skimmed over this
feature, skipping the part that you can load *anything*. It doesn't
stand out but it is a *big deal* for users coming to Org-Mode to know
that they can share/re-use libraries.

If you like a name then I will submit a pull request with a
documentation change.

The code change would rename functions and documentation. Is it too
soon to submit function name changes, too?

Re: org-plus-contrib, where is library-of-babel.org?

[Thomas S. Dye]

Aloha all,

Rasmus writes:

> Bastien Guerry <bzg@bzg.fr> writes:
>
>> Kyle Meyer <kyle@kyleam.com> writes:
>>
>>>>> Apparently, library-of-babel.org is not distributed with the Org mode
>>>>> that ships with emacs.  Not sure why that is.  I'm guessing it's a
>>>>> license issue?
>>>>
>>>> It will be in the next release (in /emacs/etc/org/).  If there's a license
>>>> issue it needs to be removed.
>>
>> The reason why this library-of-babel.org was not in Emacs is not
>> because of its lack of license.  I guess it's because Carsten and
>> Eric didn't think of it as something that should land in Emacs.
>
> Fine by me, but then let’s remove the references to it in the manual.
>
>> Hence my will to clarify this by moving it to Worg, where it will
>> be more easily accessed.
>
> I personally do not see how that is more easily accessible.  If part of
> Org, it’s already there when I start Emacs.  If it lives in Worg, the user
> must first wget it and tell Emacs how to find it.

I asked Eric Schulte about his thoughts on library-of-babel.org and the
current question of whether it should live on Worg or be distributed
with emacs.

   I don't recall why I would have thought that the library-of-babel.org
   shouldn't be distributed with Emacs so, assuming this is a position I
   held, I can't speak to the merit of my argument.

   Sorry I can't be of more help... For what it's worth I can't currently
   think of a good reason why this should not be distributed with Emacs.
   However, the same care should be taken with entries in the library as
   with any other executable code in Emacs that will run on user's
   machines.

   My thinking today is that this decision should be made based on the
   utility (to how many users) vs. the weight this could add to an Emacs
   install.  I thought Emacs was headed to distribution as a smaller core
   with more moved into external packages, but I haven't seen any evidence
   of that yet.

hth,
Tom

--
Thomas S. Dye
http://www.tsdye.com

Re: org-plus-contrib, where is library-of-babel.org?

[Kyle Meyer]

"Thomas S. Dye" <tsd@tsdye.com> writes:

> Rasmus writes:
>
>> Bastien Guerry <bzg@bzg.fr> writes:
>>
>>> The reason why this library-of-babel.org was not in Emacs is not
>>> because of its lack of license.  I guess it's because Carsten and
>>> Eric didn't think of it as something that should land in Emacs.
>>
>> Fine by me, but then let’s remove the references to it in the manual.
>>
>>> Hence my will to clarify this by moving it to Worg, where it will
>>> be more easily accessed.
>>
>> I personally do not see how that is more easily accessible.  If part of
>> Org, it’s already there when I start Emacs.  If it lives in Worg, the user
>> must first wget it and tell Emacs how to find it.
>
> I asked Eric Schulte about his thoughts on library-of-babel.org and the
> current question of whether it should live on Worg or be distributed
> with emacs. [...]

Hi Bastien and Rasmus,

Any further thoughts on this?  If we're still not sure what to do with
the file, I'd vote that we remove it from Emacs for now so that we don't
let an unlicensed file sit in the Emacs repo.

Thanks.

-- 
Kyle

Re: org-plus-contrib, where is library-of-babel.org?

[Rasmus]

Kyle Meyer <kyle@kyleam.com> writes:

> Hi Bastien and Rasmus,
>
> Any further thoughts on this?  If we're still not sure what to do with
> the file, I'd vote that we remove it from Emacs for now so that we don't
> let an unlicensed file sit in the Emacs repo.

If it's to be referred in the manual it should be there IMO.  Otherwise,
it could be removed from both places.

I personally don’t understand how it would be more convenient to host it
on Worg.

Nonetheless, I do not feel strongly against removing it.

Rasmus

-- 
In theory, practice and theory are the same. In practice they are not

Re: org-plus-contrib, where is library-of-babel.org?

[Thomas S. Dye]

Aloha Rasmus,

I agree, and believe the best course forward is to resolve the licensing
of library-of-babel.org (which appears not to be problematic) and
include the file in the emacs distribution.

When I asked on the list for advice how to install library-of-babel.org
from Worg, there was no response, which suggests to me that few users
actually work out a way to install it from Worg.

All the best,
Tom

Rasmus writes:

> Kyle Meyer <kyle@kyleam.com> writes:
>
>> Hi Bastien and Rasmus,
>>
>> Any further thoughts on this?  If we're still not sure what to do with
>> the file, I'd vote that we remove it from Emacs for now so that we don't
>> let an unlicensed file sit in the Emacs repo.
>
> If it's to be referred in the manual it should be there IMO.  Otherwise,
> it could be removed from both places.
>
> I personally don’t understand how it would be more convenient to host it
> on Worg.
>
> Nonetheless, I do not feel strongly against removing it.
>
> Rasmus


--
Thomas S. Dye
http://www.tsdye.com

Re: org-plus-contrib, where is library-of-babel.org?

[Bastien Guerry]

Hi Kyle,

the library of Babel now lives in Worg here:
http://orgmode.org/worg/library-of-babel.html

I’ve checked and fixed references to it in Org’s documentation,
but if I missed something please let me know.

Thanks,

-- 
 Bastien

Re: org-plus-contrib, where is library-of-babel.org?

[Thomas S. Dye]

Aloha Rasmus,

Rasmus writes:
>
> It will be in the next release (in /emacs/etc/org/).  If there's a license
> issue it needs to be removed.
>
>     http://git.savannah.gnu.org/cgit/emacs.git/tree/etc/org

Good news.  Thanks!

All the best,
Tom

--
Thomas S. Dye
http://www.tsdye.com

org-plus-contrib, where is library-of-babel.org?

[Thomas S. Dye]

Aloha all,

Where has the Library of Babel gone?

All the best,
Tom

--
Thomas S. Dye
http://www.tsdye.com

Re: org-plus-contrib, where is library-of-babel.org?

[Kaushal Modi]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 414 bytes --]

On Wed, Jul 5, 2017, 10:41 PM Thomas S. Dye <tsd@tsdye.com> wrote:

> Aloha all,
>
> Where has the Library of Babel gone?
>

I had never heard of that document, but it looks cool!

I see that jt is here:
http://orgmode.org/cgit.cgi/org-mode.git/tree/doc/library-of-babel.org

(It got moved in 2013:
http://orgmode.org/cgit.cgi/org-mode.git/commit/?id=321f806fafb596b53da7c944267f53f34d05af3e
)


-- 

Kaushal Modi

[-- Attachment #2: Type: text/html, Size: 1158 bytes --]

Re: org-plus-contrib, where is library-of-babel.org?

[Thomas S. Dye]

Aloha Kaushal Modi,

Kaushal Modi writes:

> On Wed, Jul 5, 2017, 10:41 PM Thomas S. Dye <tsd@tsdye.com> wrote:
>
>> Aloha all,
>>
>> Where has the Library of Babel gone?
>>
>
> I had never heard of that document, but it looks cool!
>
> I see that jt is here:
> http://orgmode.org/cgit.cgi/org-mode.git/tree/doc/library-of-babel.org
>
> (It got moved in 2013:
> http://orgmode.org/cgit.cgi/org-mode.git/commit/?id=321f806fafb596b53da7c944267f53f34d05af3e
> )

Org-plus-contrib from ELPA doesn't have the doc folder and is likewise
missing the library-of-babel.org file.

All the best,
Tom

--
Thomas S. Dye
http://www.tsdye.com

Re: org-plus-contrib, where is library-of-babel.org?

[Kaushal Modi]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 428 bytes --]

Hello Tom,

On Thu, Jul 6, 2017, 12:03 AM Thomas S. Dye <tsd@tsdye.com> wrote:

>
> Org-plus-contrib from ELPA doesn't have the doc folder and is likewise
> missing the library-of-babel.org file.
>

My response was only to "Where has the Library of Babel gone?" :)

I don't know the reasoning behind why that file is no longer part of
contrib (Copying Bastien to help with this as he was the commit author).

> --

Kaushal Modi

[-- Attachment #2: Type: text/html, Size: 1062 bytes --]

Re: org-plus-contrib, where is library-of-babel.org?

[Thomas S. Dye]

Aloha Kaushal Modi,

Kaushal Modi writes:

> Hello Tom,
>
> On Thu, Jul 6, 2017, 12:03 AM Thomas S. Dye <tsd@tsdye.com> wrote:
>
>>
>> Org-plus-contrib from ELPA doesn't have the doc folder and is likewise
>> missing the library-of-babel.org file.
>>
>
> My response was only to "Where has the Library of Babel gone?" :)
>
> I don't know the reasoning behind why that file is no longer part of
> contrib (Copying Bastien to help with this as he was the commit author).

Thanks for your response.

Org babel used to live in contrib, but was moved into core once it was
relatively mature and stable.

I'm wondering where to find library-of-babel.org in the ELPA
distribution of Org mode, org-plus-contrib.

All the best,
Tom

--
Thomas S. Dye
http://www.tsdye.com