OT, but not really: todays XKCD

OT, but not really: todays XKCD

[Dominik, Carsten]

Hi everyone.

I am sorry for the spam, but todays XKCD
 
    http://xkcd.com/1172/

is just too good to not share here, together with this
piece of data:

   $ grep defcustom lisp/*el contrib/lisp/*el |wc -l
       1213

Hurray for Nicolas and Bastien to be brave and switch to the
new exporter framework which is a thing of beauty.  Lets
help them to fix the bugs as quickly as possible and then
make those small adaptations in our workflow - it will be
worth it.

- Carsten

Re: OT, but not really: todays XKCD

[Jambunathan K]

"Dominik, Carsten" <C.Dominik@uva.nl> writes:

> Hurray for Nicolas and Bastien to be brave and switch to the
> new exporter framework which is a thing of beauty.

It is an umbrella statement and doesn't mean much in and of itself.

Let me clarify, Bastien has very miniscule (~ZERO) contribution to the
new framework or the exporters.

I was forced to respond because your mail will be read by many.  People
tend to impose their own meanings in to statements.  IMNSHO, clubbing
Nicolas work with Bastien, is doing Nicolas a big dis-service and giving
Bastien "an association" that he doesn't deserve.

I will also encourage people who donate to Orgmode - particularly those
who will be donating for impending Org-8.0 release - to make targeted
donations to Nicolas Goaziou (exclusively) or take his advise on how the
funds should be routed (if he is averse to taking donations).

A targeted donation (for individual work or hosting the servers) is much
better than an umbrella donation to Orgmode or Bastien.  Let's share
good will and credit where it is due and NOT give credit when nothing is
due.  This is important when one is respected, trusted and is in
position of some influence.

I am particularly worried to see recent call for donations on Google+
which raised to the pitch to that of religious fundraising.

ps-1: I have openly stated that I have no interest in partaking of or
seeking donations for Emacs/Orgmode related work.  I consider my
existing work as a donation themselves.

--

Re: OT, but not really: todays XKCD

[Bastien]

Hi Jambunathan,

thanks for pointing out again that the new exporter is 99% Nicolas
achievement.  It's so obvious to me that I may be fooled in thinking
that it's obvious to everyone.

As for the donations, I also wish Nicolas can receive donations.  If
Nicolas makes this move, I'd be happy to have more donate buttons on
the website to allow targeted donations.  For the ones I received, I
don't think I'm actually pretending to do more than what I do.  Your
choice of not asking for donation is yours, I respect that.

I'm not a very talented programmer, I just happen to know enough of
Emacs Lisp to help with a project like Org.  I do this mainly for the
thrill of learning new things and the pleasure of meeting nice and
smart people online.

There is one thing that I hope I'm good at: being polite and patient
with people.  Trying to help, even when I'm not the best one around
here to give an answer.  I don't know if you are a maintainer for a
project of a comparable size than Org, but if you do, you know that
being nice and willing to help is a big part of the job.

It's important for two reasons: to keep a nice atmosphere on the list,
so that people feel comfortable asking stupid questions; and to let
other developers focus on their work (while you try to help newbies
with their problems).  It would have been difficult for you to focus
on the ODT exporter or to Nicolas to focus on the new export engine
if I didn't put enough energy to maintain the whole beast.

At least I believe so.

But I get the core of your message and I fully agree: kudos go to
Nicolas for his work!  I just hope I helped him somehow.

Best,

PS: I think I said it already but I'm not a benevolent dictator for
life -- the ones I think would be good maintainers declined the offer
so far.  Just be patient :)

-- 
 Bastien

Re: OT, but not really: todays XKCD

[Jambunathan K]

Bastien <bzg@altern.org> writes:

> It's important for two reasons: to keep a nice atmosphere on the list,
> so that people feel comfortable asking stupid questions; and to let
> other developers focus on their work (while you try to help newbies
> with their problems).  It would have been difficult for you to focus
> on the ODT exporter or to Nicolas to focus on the new export engine
> if I didn't put enough energy to maintain the whole beast.

Last line is comical.  It reminds me of name Dilbert, for reason I
cannot fathom.  The worth of managers is over-estimated, particularly
when the estimation is done by managers themselves.
-- 

Re: OT, but not really: todays XKCD

[Ista Zahn]

On Tue, Feb 12, 2013 at 10:10 AM, Jambunathan K <kjambunathan@gmail.com> wrote:
> Bastien <bzg@altern.org> writes:
>
>> It's important for two reasons: to keep a nice atmosphere on the list,
>> so that people feel comfortable asking stupid questions; and to let
>> other developers focus on their work (while you try to help newbies
>> with their problems).  It would have been difficult for you to focus
>> on the ODT exporter or to Nicolas to focus on the new export engine
>> if I didn't put enough energy to maintain the whole beast.
>
> Last line is comical.  It reminds me of name Dilbert, for reason I
> cannot fathom.  The worth of managers is over-estimated, particularly
> when the estimation is done by managers themselves.

I dislike this kind of negativity, so I've added you to my spam filter. Bye bye.

-Ista

Re: OT, but not really: todays XKCD

[François Pinard]

Jambunathan K <kjambunathan@gmail.com> writes:

> Bastien <bzg@altern.org> writes:

>> [...] to keep a nice atmosphere on the list, [...] put enough energy
>> to maintain the whole beast.

> the estimation is done by managers themselves.

I find Bastien to be a very good maintainer.  I maintained a good deal
of software in my computer life, some being much more visible than Org.
Yet, Bastien shows me how I could have been a much better maintainer,
and in many ways.  He demonstrates a good balance between being able to
listen and communicate, and yet being firm enough to take decisions.
And these decisions are such that Org continues to stay rather
consistent while being opened to a lot of diversity, which to me is a
little miracle in itself.  How he can succeed in finding enough time for
all the timely supports he gives us, is a wonderful mystery to me.

Jambunathan, I prefer to think, right or wrong, that your account has
been pirated, and that someone else is impersonating you.  The truth is
that I admired your work and involvement around the ODT exporter, and
with the Org community.  Some people wrote to me about you, sharing the
high praise they have towards the quality of your code.  So, I prefer to
blindly stick with my admiration, and forget all the rest. :-)

Peace!

François

Re: OT, but not really: todays XKCD

[Yagnesh Raghava Yakkala]

[RESENT to the list only now]

Dear Jambunathan,

I respect your contributions to Org/Emacs/FreeSoftware a lot.

But I am disappointed to see that you discourage/attack current Org's
maintainer directly. I think this won't help anyone in anyway.

Thanks.,

-- 
ఎందరో మహానుభావులు అందరికి వందనములు.
YYR

Re: OT, but not really: todays XKCD

[Jambunathan K]

Yagnesh Raghava Yakkala <hi@yagnesh.org> writes:

> But I am disappointed to see that you discourage/attack current Org's
> maintainer directly. I think this won't help anyone in anyway.

If I say Yagnesh has made zero contributions to Tamil Poetry does it
amount to attacking you.  Think about it.
-- 

Re: OT, but not really: todays XKCD

[Yagnesh Raghava Yakkala]

Dear Jambunathan,

> If I say Yagnesh has made zero contributions to Tamil Poetry does it
> amount to attacking you.  Think about it.

Sorry to say, that is very bad comparison. Seems you are trying to nullify
Bastien's efforts.

Though I don't want to quantify, here is one data point,









I wonder how much contribution(s) sum up zero+ for you. But personally for me
a contributor doesn't need to add code commits. I start counting from a mere
up-voter on a thread 

, I consider
anybody a contributor who has at least upvoted pro fsf/org thread.


Thanks.,
-- 
ఎందరో మహానుభావులు అందరికి వందనములు.
YYR

Re: OT, but not really: todays XKCD

[Yagnesh Raghava Yakkala]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 313 bytes --]


[Earlier mail has been sent prematurely.]

> If I say Yagnesh has made zero contributions to Tamil Poetry does it
> amount to attacking you.  Think about it.

Sorry to say, that is very bad comparison. Seems you are trying to nullify
Bastien's efforts.

Though I don't want to quantify, here is one data point,


[-- Attachment #2: org-committers.png --]
[-- Type: image/png, Size: 50858 bytes --]

[-- Attachment #3: Type: text/plain, Size: 558 bytes --]


Not to forget taking maintainer-ship itself is big deal. 

I wonder how much contribution(s) sum up zero+ for you. But personally for me
a contributor doesn't need to add any code commits. I start counting contributors
from those up-voters on reddit/hacker-news for org/fsf threads.

In anyway, pointing each other doesn't do any good and I think I wrote more
than I am supposed to in this thread. So I will shut up on this.


Thanks.,
-- 
ఎందరో మహానుభావులు అందరికి వందనములు.
YYR

Re: OT, but not really: todays XKCD

[Jambunathan K]

Yagnesh Raghava Yakkala <hi@yagnesh.org> writes:

> Though I don't want to quantify, here is one data point,

Graphs are wonderful and colorful.  The key thing is it's irrelevant.
How about creating a graph that shows commit to the org-element.el and
org-e-* files.  Then we are talking.
-- 

Re: OT, but not really: todays XKCD

[Carsten Dominik]

On 12 feb. 2013, at 15:04, Jambunathan K <kjambunathan@gmail.com> wrote:

> Yagnesh Raghava Yakkala <hi@yagnesh.org> writes:
> 
>> Though I don't want to quantify, here is one data point,
> 
> Graphs are wonderful and colorful.  The key thing is it's irrelevant.
> How about creating a graph that shows commit to the org-element.el and
> org-e-* files.  Then we are talking.

You are really starting to make me angry.  No one in this thread has claimed that Bastien to a major part of the commits or code lines of the parser.  This is a fuzz you are generating all by yourself.

- Carsten

Re: OT, but not really: todays XKCD

[Jambunathan K]

> You are really starting to make me angry.

I let go of my commit access sometime ago.  Now, I am leaving this
forum.

Peace.
-- 

Re: OT, but not really: todays XKCD

[Samuel Wales]

On 2/12/13, Jambunathan K <kjambunathan@gmail.com> wrote:
> I let go of my commit access sometime ago.  Now, I am leaving this
> forum.
>
> Peace.

Yes, I think we will have peace.  I feel more comfortable on this list
now than I have in a very long time.

Thank you.

Samuel

-- 
The Kafka Pandemic: http://thekafkapandemic.blogspot.com

The disease DOES progress.  MANY people have died from it.  ANYBODY
can get it.  There is no hope without action.

Re: OT, but not really: todays XKCD

[Rainer Stengele]

Am 12.02.2013 18:39, schrieb Samuel Wales:
> On 2/12/13, Jambunathan K <kjambunathan@gmail.com> wrote:
>> I let go of my commit access sometime ago.  Now, I am leaving this
>> forum.
>>
>> Peace.
> 
> Yes, I think we will have peace.  I feel more comfortable on this list
> now than I have in a very long time.
> 
> Thank you.
> 
> Samuel
> 
+1

Thanks Bastien for your great work and your kind and patient way of
helping me and many more of us using Org!

Rainer

Re: OT, but not really: todays XKCD

[Evan Misshula]

Many thanks for maintaining a civil community +1 Bastien

On Tue, Feb 12, 2013 at 6:39 PM, Rainer Stengele
<rainer.stengele@online.de> wrote:
> Am 12.02.2013 18:39, schrieb Samuel Wales:
>> On 2/12/13, Jambunathan K <kjambunathan@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> I let go of my commit access sometime ago.  Now, I am leaving this
>>> forum.
>>>
>>> Peace.
>>
>> Yes, I think we will have peace.  I feel more comfortable on this list
>> now than I have in a very long time.
>>
>> Thank you.
>>
>> Samuel
>>
> +1
>
> Thanks Bastien for your great work and your kind and patient way of
> helping me and many more of us using Org!
>
> Rainer
>



-- 
Evan Misshula
Doctoral Student (Criminal Justice)
CUNY John Jay
"Let us reform our schools, and we shall find little reform needed in
our prisons."
       John Ruskin, Unto This Last, essay 2 (1862)
       English critic, essayist, & reformer (1819 - 1900)

"Instruction does much, but encouragement does everything." Johann
Wolfgang Von Goethe
www.snrg-nyc.org

Re: OT, but not really: todays XKCD

[Jambunathan K]

Yagnesh Raghava Yakkala <hi@yagnesh.org> writes:

> Dear Jambunathan,
>
>> If I say Yagnesh has made zero contributions to Tamil Poetry does it
>> amount to attacking you.  Think about it.
>
> Sorry to say, that is very bad comparison. Seems you are trying to nullify
> Bastien's efforts.

You are blaming me for what I didn't say.  How bad can it be.

Re-read the mail I sent.  Now contest my statement: "Bastien has minimal
contribution to new export framework or exporters."  

Hint: There is a (subtle) difference between: "I am not eating Oranges"
and "I am fasting".

I will give you one more attempt.  Try again.  See whether you can
convince me.

> Though I don't want to quantify, here is one data point,
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> I wonder how much contribution(s) sum up zero+ for you. But personally for me
> a contributor doesn't need to add code commits. I start counting from a mere
> up-voter on a thread 
>
> , I consider
> anybody a contributor who has at least upvoted pro fsf/org thread.
>
>
> Thanks.,

-- 

Re: OT, but not really: todays XKCD

[Daniel Clemente]

El Tue, 12 Feb 2013 19:28:24 +0530 Jambunathan K va escriure:
> 
> I will give you one more attempt.  Try again.  See whether you can
> convince me.
> 

  Wow, you like discussing! You would enjoy a debate association. I did it and I enjoyed very much, it's discussing only for its own sake.

  I suggest you a challenging exercise: correct facts /without/ causing a negative response from the list. It may be difficult but it's useful.

  In this way we will be able to focus discussions on more useful and relevant topics.

Re: OT, but not really: todays XKCD

[Thomas S. Dye]

Jambunathan K <kjambunathan@gmail.com> writes:

> "Dominik, Carsten" <C.Dominik@uva.nl> writes:
>
>> Hurray for Nicolas and Bastien to be brave and switch to the
>> new exporter framework which is a thing of beauty.
>
> It is an umbrella statement and doesn't mean much in and of itself.

Echoing Carsten's message, I tip my hat to Bastien for moving the Org
mode community along this path, and to Nicolas for a remarkable piece of
software engineering. I'm looking forward to what the future brings, and
to a long and productive relationship with the Org mode community.

All the best,
Tom

-- 
Thomas S. Dye
http://www.tsdye.com

Re: OT, but not really: todays XKCD

[Eric S Fraga]

Jambunathan K <kjambunathan@gmail.com> writes:

> "Dominik, Carsten" <C.Dominik@uva.nl> writes:
>
>> Hurray for Nicolas and Bastien to be brave and switch to the
>> new exporter framework which is a thing of beauty.
>
> It is an umbrella statement and doesn't mean much in and of itself.
>
> Let me clarify, Bastien has very miniscule (~ZERO) contribution to the
> new framework or the exporters.

Jambunathan,

please do not make the mistake of underestimating the effort required to
manage a project like org.  It is an often thankless job (thanks
Bastien!) and much of what is done is behind the scenes and probably
very often akin to herding cats.  Nicolas has not worked in isolation,
which is not intended to diminish his contributions of course.  The fact
that much of the continual evolution of org is so painless and yet so
effective is a real indicator of how well Bastien is managing the whole
process.

'nuff said.  On to other things now... like actually using org to get
work done!

-- 
: Eric S Fraga, GnuPG: 0xC89193D8FFFCF67D
: in Emacs 24.3.50.1 and Org 7.9.3e-975-g1eccd2

Re: OT, but not really: todays XKCD

[Jambunathan K]

Why are you fudging with Mail Followup headers?  Please don't
underestimate the confusion it creates for others.

-- 

Re: OT, but not really: todays XKCD

[Eric S Fraga]

Jambunathan K <kjambunathan@gmail.com> writes:

> Why are you fudging with Mail Followup headers?  Please don't
> underestimate the confusion it creates for others.

I believe that most people expect responses to a mailing list email to
be directed to that list.

I am sorry you have found this confusing.

-- 
: Eric S Fraga, GnuPG: 0xC89193D8FFFCF67D
: in Emacs 24.3.50.1 and Org 7.9.3e-975-g1eccd2

Re: OT, but not really: todays XKCD

[Jambunathan K]

Eric S Fraga <e.fraga@ucl.ac.uk> writes:

> Jambunathan K <kjambunathan@gmail.com> writes:
>
>> Why are you fudging with Mail Followup headers?  Please don't
>> underestimate the confusion it creates for others.
>
> I believe that most people expect responses to a mailing list email to
> be directed to that list.

Pray explain why Carsten appears in the followup post and you yourself
don't figure in it.

When I send a wide reply - S W in (gnus) - my response would have been
sent "To" to Carsten.  Precisely this is what I see in my Gnus buffer.


,---- Reply buffer
| To: "Dominik, Carsten" <C.Dominik@uva.nl>
| Cc: "emacs-orgmode@gnu.org List" <emacs-orgmode@gnu.org>
| Subject: Re: OT, but not really: todays XKCD
| Gcc: nnfolder+archive:sent.2013-02
| From: Jambunathan K <kjambunathan@gmail.com>
`----

,---- Article buffer
| Mail-Followup-To: Jambunathan K <kjambunathan@gmail.com>, "Dominik, Carsten"
| 	<C.Dominik@uva.nl>, "emacs-orgmode@gnu.org List"
| 	<emacs-orgmode@gnu.org>
`----

> I am sorry you have found this confusing.

I will continue to be confused, unless an explanation is in order.  I
have noticed this consistently with your mails in the past.
-- 

Re: OT, but not really: todays XKCD

[Eric S Fraga]

Jambunathan K <kjambunathan@gmail.com> writes:

[...]

> Pray explain why Carsten appears in the followup post and you yourself
> don't figure in it.

Jambunathan,

I cannot speak for Carsten.  In my case, if I send an email to the list,
I would expect following responses to go to that list as well; I don't
need to get the emails directly addressed to me as I subscribe to the
list.

I realise that this is possibly non-intuitive based on normal practice
for non-mailing list emails but, for a list, I think this is the best
default as it makes it easy to respond to a list as opposed to the
individual.

I tell gnus I am subscribed to this list and it takes care of setting
the headers for me.  I have only customised the following two variables:

#+begin_src emacs-lisp
(setq
      message-subscribed-address-functions '(gnus-find-subscribed-addresses)
      message-subscribed-addresses '("ding@gnus.org" "emacs-orgmode@gnu.org")
      )
#+end_src

If there is a consensus on the list that I am going against some form of
etiquette for this list, I am happy to change my settings.  I have no
interest in annoying people!

eric

-- 
: Eric S Fraga, GnuPG: 0xC89193D8FFFCF67D
: in Emacs 24.3.50.1 and Org 7.9.3e-988-g1f8c8d

Re: OT, but not really: todays XKCD

[Bastien]

Hi Eric,

Eric S Fraga <e.fraga@ucl.ac.uk> writes:

> If there is a consensus on the list that I am going against some form of
> etiquette for this list, I am happy to change my settings.  I have no
> interest in annoying people!

Accepting standard use of Mail-Followup-To on this list is fine.

Let see if someone directly impacted complains one day.

For Gnus users who find your MFT confusing, there is this option:
(setq message-use-mail-followup-to nil)

Thanks,

-- 
 Bastien

Re: OT, but not really: todays XKCD

[Bastien]

Jambunathan K <kjambunathan@gmail.com> writes:

> A targeted donation (for individual work or hosting the servers) is much
> better than an umbrella donation to Orgmode or Bastien.

FWIW I agree.  Any effective proposal against the website is welcome:

  ~$ git clone git://orgmode.org/orgweb.git

Thanks,

-- 
 Bastien

Re: OT, but not really: todays XKCD

[Eric S Fraga]

"Dominik, Carsten" <C.Dominik@uva.nl> writes:

> is just too good to not share here, together with this
> piece of data:
>
>    $ grep defcustom lisp/*el contrib/lisp/*el |wc -l
>        1213

Scary!  But indicative of the power of org I guess.

> Hurray for Nicolas and Bastien to be brave and switch to the
> new exporter framework which is a thing of beauty.  Lets
> help them to fix the bugs as quickly as possible and then
> make those small adaptations in our workflow - it will be
> worth it.

+1

I think it's worth making clear that my concerns last week, with respect
to moving to the new exporter, were with the move taking place without a
clear idea of what workflow changes were required, whether small or
not.  The subsequent emails to this list, by Nicolas but also by many
others, has made a significant difference.

I have moved over to the new exporter exclusively, with actually little
change to my workflow incredibly!  Things are going well but I do seem
to be encountering some very obscure bugs, mostly to do with columns in
beamer export.  I've not been able to come up with a suitable minimal
example yet unfortunately: when I take a slide which has problems out of
the whole presentation and put it into a single slide document, it
works... :( Anyway, work in progress.

In any case, thanks are due, of course, to Nicolas and Bastien but I
would also like to express my thanks to all other contributors to org,
be they contributors to actual code or because of their engagement on
this list!  All are required for org to continue being the indispensable
part of my life and all are appreciated greatly.

thanks,
eric
-- 
: Eric S Fraga, GnuPG: 0xC89193D8FFFCF67D
: in Emacs 24.3.50.1 and Org 7.9.3e-975-g1eccd2