[BUG] Prefer lowercase #+results [9.5.2 (release_9.5.2-3-geb9f34 @ /Users/salutis/src/emacs/nextstep/Emacs.app/Contents/Resources/lisp/org/)]

[BUG] Prefer lowercase #+results [9.5.2 (release_9.5.2-3-geb9f34 @ /Users/salutis/src/emacs/nextstep/Emacs.app/Contents/Resources/lisp/org/)]

[Rudolf Adamkovič]

If I remember well, Org decided to suggest with lowercase keywords (and
use uppercase keywords in the manual, for some reason).  Then, we should
change "org-babel-results-keyword" from "RESULTS" to "results".

(1) Example #1

#+begin_src R :results verbatim :wrap example
[…]
#+end_src

#+RESULT: [<--- inconsistent]
#+begin_example
[…]
#+end_example

(2) Example #2

#+begin_src R :results verbatim :wrap EXAMPLE
[…]
#+end_src

#+RESULT:
#+begin_EXAMPLE [<---- still inconsistent]
[…]
#+end_EXAMPLE

P.S. Org should not leak potentially sensitive information, such as
"/Users/salutis/", in the subject of its bug reports.

Rudy

Emacs  : GNU Emacs 29.0.50 (build 8, x86_64-apple-darwin21.2.0, NS appkit-2113.20 Version 12.1 (Build 21C52))
 of 2022-01-02
Package: Org mode version 9.5.2 (release_9.5.2-3-geb9f34 @ /Users/salutis/src/emacs/nextstep/Emacs.app/Contents/Resources/lisp/org/)

current state:
==============
(setq
 org-pomodoro-format "t₋%s"
 org-link-elisp-confirm-function 'yes-or-no-p
 org-agenda-skip-deadline-prewarning-if-scheduled t
 org-cite-insert-processor 'citar
 org-pomodoro-time-format "%mm"
 org-bibtex-headline-format-function #[257 "\300.\236A\207" [:title] 3 "\n\n(fn ENTRY)"]
 org-agenda-scheduled-leaders '("Scheduled: " "Scheduled %d×: ")
 org-pomodoro-long-break-sound "~/beeping.mp3"
 org-agenda-custom-commands '(("a" "Agenda"
                               ((stuck ""
                                 ((org-agenda-overriding-header
                                   "Stuck projects and actions")
                                  (org-agenda-files '("~/gtd/next-actions.org"))
                                  (org-agenda-prefix-format "* "))
                                 )
                                (todo "TODO"
                                 ((org-agenda-overriding-header "\nNext actions")
                                  (org-agenda-files '("~/gtd/next-actions.org"))
                                  (org-agenda-prefix-format "* %b")
                                  (org-agenda-breadcrumbs-separator "\n** ")
                                  (org-agenda-todo-ignore-scheduled 'all)
                                  (org-agenda-todo-ignore-timestamp 'future)
                                  (org-habit-show-habits nil))
                                 )
                                (agenda ""
                                 ((org-agenda-overriding-header "\nHabits")
                                  (org-agenda-files '("~/gtd/habits.org"))
                                  (org-agenda-format-date
                                   (with-temp-buffer (insert (fortune-message))
                                    (fill-paragraph) (buffer-string))
                                   )
                                  (org-agenda-day-face-function
                                   (lambda (date) 'font-lock-comment-face))
                                  (org-agenda-use-time-grid nil) (org-agenda-span 1)
                                  (org-agenda-prefix-format "* % s"))
                                 )
                                (agenda ""
                                 ((org-agenda-overriding-header "\nToday's agenda")
                                  (org-agenda-files
                                   '("~/gtd/next-actions.org" "~/gtd/calendar.org"))
                                  (org-agenda-start-on-weekday nil) (org-agenda-span 1)
                                  (org-agenda-skip-scheduled-if-done t)
                                  (org-agenda-skip-deadline-if-done t)
                                  (org-agenda-sort-notime-is-late nil)
                                  (org-agenda-use-time-grid nil)
                                  (org-agenda-prefix-format "% t* %b%s")
                                  (org-agenda-breadcrumbs-separator "\n** ")
                                  (org-agenda-skip-function
                                   '(org-agenda-skip-entry-if 'todo 'done))
                                  (org-habit-show-habits nil))
                                 )
                                (agenda ""
                                 ((org-agenda-overriding-header "\nTomorrow's agenda")
                                  (org-agenda-files
                                   '("~/gtd/next-actions.org" "~/gtd/calendar.org"))
                                  (org-agenda-span 1) (org-agenda-start-day "+1d")
                                  (org-agenda-skip-scheduled-if-done t)
                                  (org-agenda-skip-deadline-if-done t)
                                  (org-agenda-sort-notime-is-late nil)
                                  (org-agenda-use-time-grid nil)
                                  (org-agenda-prefix-format "% t* %b%s")
                                  (org-agenda-breadcrumbs-separator "\n** ")
                                  (org-habit-show-habits nil))
                                 )
                                (agenda ""
                                 ((org-agenda-overriding-header "\nNear future")
                                  (org-agenda-files
                                   '("~/gtd/next-actions.org" "~/gtd/calendar.org"))
                                  (org-agenda-start-on-weekday nil)
                                  (org-agenda-start-day "+2d") (org-agenda-span 7)
                                  (org-agenda-skip-scheduled-if-done t)
                                  (org-agenda-skip-deadline-if-done t)
                                  (org-habit-show-habits nil)
                                  (org-agenda-prefix-format "%-12 t* %b%s")
                                  (org-agenda-breadcrumbs-separator "\n            ** "))
                                 )
                                (todo "WAIT"
                                 ((org-agenda-overriding-header "\nWaiting")
                                  (org-agenda-files '("~/gtd/next-actions.org"))
                                  (org-agenda-prefix-format "% t* %b%s")
                                  (org-agenda-breadcrumbs-separator "\n** "))
                                 )
                                )
                               )
                              )
 org-agenda-files '("~/gtd/inbox.org" "~/gtd/calendar.org" "~/gtd/next-actions.org"
                    "~/gtd/someday-maybe.org" "~/gtd/habits.org")
 org-refile-targets '((org-agenda-files :maxlevel . 3))
 org-export-before-parsing-hook '(org-attach-expand-links)
 org-link-descriptive nil
 org-default-notes-file "~/gtd/inbox.org"
 org-refile-use-outline-path 'file
 org-pomodoro-short-break-sound "~/beeping.mp3"
 org-habit-show-habits-only-for-today nil
 org-archive-hook '(org-attach-archive-delete-maybe)
 org-cite-follow-processor 'citar
 org-file-apps '(("\\.pdf\\'" . emacs) (auto-mode . emacs) (directory . emacs)
                 ("\\.mm\\'" . default) ("\\.x?html?\\'" . default)
                 ("\\.pdf\\'" . default))
 org-html-postamble nil
 org-odt-format-inlinetask-function 'org-odt-format-inlinetask-default-function
 org-edit-src-content-indentation 0
 org-ascii-format-drawer-function #[771 ".\207" [] 4 "\n\n(fn NAME CONTENTS WIDTH)"]
 org-cycle-hook '(org-cycle-hide-archived-subtrees org-cycle-hide-drawers
                  org-cycle-show-empty-lines org-optimize-window-after-visibility-change)
 org-clock-clocked-in-display nil
 org-duration-format '(("h" . t) (special . 2))
 org-link-from-user-regexp "\\<salutis@Workstation\\.local\\>\\|\\<Rudolf Adamkovič\\>"
 org-image-actual-width 640
 org-babel-post-tangle-hook '(remove-final-newline)
 org-mode-hook '(#[0 "\301\211.\207" [imenu-create-index-function org-imenu-get-tree] 2]
                 org-clock-load my/prose-fill-init
                 #[0 "\300\301\302\303\304$\207"
                   [add-hook change-major-mode-hook org-show-all append local] 5]
                 #[0 "\300\301\302\303\304$\207"
                   [add-hook change-major-mode-hook org-babel-show-result-all append local]
                   5]
                 org-babel-result-hide-spec org-babel-hide-all-hashes)
 org-babel-load-languages '((emacs-lisp . t) (R . t) (C . t) (bibtex) (sqlite . t))
 org-src-window-setup 'current-window
 org-cite-csl-styles-dir "~/"
 org-html-mathjax-options '((path
                             "https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/npm/mathjax@3/es5/tex-mml-chtml.js")
                            (path
                             "https://cdnjs.cloudflare.com/ajax/libs/mathjax/2.7.0/MathJax.js?config=TeX-AMS_HTML")
                            (scale "100") (align "center") (font "TeX")
                            (linebreaks "false") (autonumber "AMS") (indent "0em")
                            (multlinewidth "85%") (tagindent ".8em") (tagside "right"))
 org-latex-format-drawer-function #[514 "\207" [] 3 "\n\n(fn _ CONTENTS)"]
 org-ellipsis "›"
 org-pomodoro-overtime-sound "/Users/salutis/.emacs.d/elpa/org-pomodoro-20190530.1445/resources/bell.wav"
 org-clock-total-time-cell-format "%s"
 org-latex-format-headline-function 'org-latex-format-headline-default-function
 org-confirm-shell-link-function 'yes-or-no-p
 org-agenda-skip-scheduled-if-deadline-is-shown t
 org-export-with-section-numbers nil
 org-html-format-drawer-function #[514 "\207" [] 3 "\n\n(fn NAME CONTENTS)"]
 outline-isearch-open-invisible-function 'outline-isearch-open-invisible
 org-use-sub-superscripts nil
 org-stuck-projects '("+LEVEL=1/-DONE-QUIT" ("TODO" "WAIT") nil
                      "^<\\([[:digit:]]\\{4\\}-[[:digit:]]\\{2\\}-[[:digit:]]\\{2\\}\\(?: .*?\\)?\\)>\\|SCHEDULED:")
 org-highlight-latex-and-related '(native script entities)
 org-odt-format-headline-function 'org-odt-format-headline-default-function
 org-agenda-mode-hook '(hl-line-mode)
 org-agenda-before-write-hook '(org-agenda-add-entry-text)
 org-babel-tangle-lang-exts '(("D" . "d") ("C++" . "cpp") ("emacs-lisp" . "el")
                              ("elisp" . "el"))
 org-src-mode-hook '(org-src-babel-configure-edit-buffer
                     org-src-mode-configure-edit-buffer)
 org-confirm-elisp-link-function 'yes-or-no-p
 org-agenda-window-setup 'current-window
 org-cycle-separator-lines 1
 org-clock-out-remove-zero-time-clocks t
 org-cite-activate-processor 'citar
 org-pomodoro-ticking-sound "/Users/salutis/.emacs.d/elpa/org-pomodoro-20190530.1445/resources/tick.wav"
 org-deadline-warning-days 1
 org-html-head-extra "<style>\n  #content {\n    font-size: 125%;\n    max-width: 60rem; /* instead of em */\n  }\n</style>"
 org-pomodoro-short-break-length 10
 org-speed-command-hook '(org-speed-command-activate org-babel-speed-command-activate)
 org-html-format-inlinetask-function 'org-html-format-inlinetask-default-function
 org-ascii-format-inlinetask-function 'org-ascii-format-inlinetask-default
 org-odt-format-drawer-function #[514 "\207" [] 3 "\n\n(fn NAME CONTENTS)"]
 org-use-extra-keys t
 org-confirm-babel-evaluate nil
 org-pomodoro-finished-sound "~/beeping.mp3"
 org-preview-latex-default-process 'dvisvgm
 org-clock-persist t
 org-latex-format-inlinetask-function 'org-latex-format-inlinetask-default-function
 org-pomodoro-short-break-format "t₊%s"
 org-tab-first-hook '(org-babel-hide-result-toggle-maybe org-babel-header-arg-expand)
 org-link-shell-confirm-function 'yes-or-no-p
 org-babel-pre-tangle-hook '(save-buffer)
 org-pomodoro-break-finished-hook '(my/org-clock-mode-line-enable)
 org-agenda-loop-over-headlines-in-active-region nil
 org-fontify-quote-and-verse-blocks t
 org-cite-global-bibliography '("/Users/salutis/bib/Books.bib"
                                "/Users/salutis/bib/Cormen+2009.bib"
                                "/Users/salutis/bib/DiscussionForum6.bib"
                                "/Users/salutis/bib/DiscussionForum7.bib"
                                "/Users/salutis/bib/DiscussionForum8.bib"
                                "/Users/salutis/bib/Epp-2019.bib"
                                "/Users/salutis/bib/Mix.bib"
                                "/Users/salutis/bib/MotionPictures.bib"
                                "/Users/salutis/bib/Stewart+2020.bib"
                                "/Users/salutis/bib/abbate-2004.bib"
                                "/Users/salutis/bib/abelson+1996-1.bib"
                                "/Users/salutis/bib/abelson+1996.bib"
                                "/Users/salutis/bib/acm-.bib"
                                "/Users/salutis/bib/aho+1994.bib"
                                "/Users/salutis/bib/akobeng-2007.bib"
                                "/Users/salutis/bib/aldrich+2015.bib"
                                "/Users/salutis/bib/ambler-2015.bib"
                                "/Users/salutis/bib/american-psychological-association-.bib" "/Users/salutis/bib/apple-2017.bib" "/Users/salutis/bib/arndt-2010.bib" "/Users/salutis/bib/arpaci-dusseau-2019.bib" "/Users/salutis/bib/barak-2021.bib" "/Users/salutis/bib/bartholdi-1886.bib" "/Users/salutis/bib/baviere-2018.bib" "/Users/salutis/bib/beall-2019.bib" "/Users/salutis/bib/belton-1996.bib" "/Users/salutis/bib/bennett+2015.bib" "/Users/salutis/bib/bentham-1780.bib" "/Users/salutis/bib/bibdesk.bib" "/Users/salutis/bib/bilaniuk-2003.bib" "/Users/salutis/bib/bio.bib" "/Users/salutis/bib/blinn-1978.bib" "/Users/salutis/bib/boai-2002.bib" "/Users/salutis/bib/bogart-2004.bib" "/Users/salutis/bib/brehe-2019.bib" "/Users/salutis/bib/brownlee-2011.bib" "/Users/salutis/bib/bunkley-2008.bib" "/Users/salutis/bib/butler.bib" "/Users/salutis/bib/button+2019.bib" "/Users/salutis/bib/byars+2018-1.bib" "/Users/salutis/bib/byars+2018-2.bib" "/Users/salutis/bib/byars+2018.bib" "/Users/salutis/bib/camara-2015.bib" "/Users/salutis/bib/campbell-kelly-2007.bib" "/Users/salutis/bib/campisi+2019.bib" "/Users/salutis/bib/carter+2015.bib" "/Users/salutis/bib/carver-1989.bib" "/Users/salutis/bib/cary-1975.bib" "/Users/salutis/bib/chadwick-2017.bib" "/Users/salutis/bib/clark+2020.bib" "/Users/salutis/bib/clark-1980.bib" "/Users/salutis/bib/clark-1982.bib" "/Users/salutis/bib/collingwood+2019.bib" "/Users/salutis/bib/comedy.bib" "/Users/salutis/bib/cook-1984.bib" "/Users/salutis/bib/corral-2020.bib" "/Users/salutis/bib/cramer-2020.bib" "/Users/salutis/bib/creasy+2016.bib" "/Users/salutis/bib/cridge-2015.bib" "/Users/salutis/bib/cromwell.bib" "/Users/salutis/bib/crowell+2019.bib" "/Users/salutis/bib/cunningham-2015.bib" "/Users/salutis/bib/curran-1989.bib" "/Users/salutis/bib/dagostino-2020.bib" "/Users/salutis/bib/darcus+.bib" "/Users/salutis/bib/darwin-1872.bib" "/Users/salutis/bib/dasgupta+2006.bib" "/Users/salutis/bib/david-1784.bib" 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"/Users/salutis/bib/hemingway+2007.bib" "/Users/salutis/bib/hemingway+2008.bib" "/Users/salutis/bib/hewlett-packard-2007.bib" "/Users/salutis/bib/heydon+1999.bib" "/Users/salutis/bib/hume-1757.bib" "/Users/salutis/bib/humphreys-.bib" "/Users/salutis/bib/indiana-university-.bib" "/Users/salutis/bib/inoshita+2019.bib" "/Users/salutis/bib/ivanova+2016.bib" "/Users/salutis/bib/jhangiani+2019.bib" "/Users/salutis/bib/jimenez+2016-1.bib" "/Users/salutis/bib/jimenez+2016-12.bib" "/Users/salutis/bib/jimenez+2016-4.bib" "/Users/salutis/bib/jimenez+2016-7.bib" "/Users/salutis/bib/jimenez+2016-8.bib" "/Users/salutis/bib/jimenez+2016-9.bib" "/Users/salutis/bib/jimenez+2016.bib" "/Users/salutis/bib/kedlaya.bib" "/Users/salutis/bib/kepka-2018.bib" "/Users/salutis/bib/khan-2010.bib" "/Users/salutis/bib/king-nd.bib" "/Users/salutis/bib/kitchin-2016.bib" "/Users/salutis/bib/knuth+2021.bib" "/Users/salutis/bib/knuth-1984.bib" "/Users/salutis/bib/knuth-2011.bib" "/Users/salutis/bib/knuth-2014.bib" 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 org-agenda-log-mode-items '(state closed clock)
 org-occur-hook '(org-first-headline-recenter)
 org-metadown-hook '(org-babel-pop-to-session-maybe)
 org-link-parameters '(("attachment" :follow org-attach-follow :complete
                        org-attach-complete-link)
                       ("id" :follow org-id-open)
                       ("notmuch" :store org-notmuch-store-link :follow notmuch-show)
                       ("eww" :follow org-eww-open :store org-eww-store-link)
                       ("rmail" :follow org-rmail-open :store org-rmail-store-link)
                       ("mhe" :follow org-mhe-open :store org-mhe-store-link)
                       ("irc" :follow org-irc-visit :store org-irc-store-link :export
                        org-irc-export)
                       ("info" :follow org-info-open :export org-info-export :store
                        org-info-store-link)
                       ("gnus" :follow org-gnus-open :store org-gnus-store-link)
                       ("docview" :follow org-docview-open :export org-docview-export
                        :store org-docview-store-link)
                       ("bibtex" :follow org-bibtex-open :store org-bibtex-store-link)
                       ("bbdb" :follow org-bbdb-open :export org-bbdb-export :complete
                        org-bbdb-complete-link :store org-bbdb-store-link)
                       ("w3m" :store org-w3m-store-link)
                       ("doi" :follow org-link-doi-open :export org-link-doi-export)
                       ("elfeed" :follow elfeed-link-open :store elfeed-link-store-link)
                       ("file+sys") ("file+emacs") ("shell" :follow org-link--open-shell)
                       ("news" :follow
                        #[514 "\301\300\302.Q.\"\207" ["news" browse-url ":"] 6
                          "\n\n(fn URL ARG)"]
                        )
                       ("mailto" :follow
                        #[514 "\301\300\302.Q.\"\207" ["mailto" browse-url ":"] 6
                          "\n\n(fn URL ARG)"]
                        )
                       ("https" :follow
                        #[514 "\301\300\302.Q.\"\207" ["https" browse-url ":"] 6
                          "\n\n(fn URL ARG)"]
                        )
                       ("http" :follow
                        #[514 "\301\300\302.Q.\"\207" ["http" browse-url ":"] 6
                          "\n\n(fn URL ARG)"]
                        )
                       ("ftp" :follow
                        #[514 "\301\300\302.Q.\"\207" ["ftp" browse-url ":"] 6
                          "\n\n(fn URL ARG)"]
                        )
                       ("help" :follow org-link--open-help :store org-link--store-help)
                       ("file" :complete org-link-complete-file)
                       ("elisp" :follow org-link--open-elisp))
 org-html-format-headline-function 'org-html-format-headline-default-function
 org-metaup-hook '(org-babel-load-in-session-maybe)
 org-refile-allow-creating-parent-nodes 'confirm
 org-startup-with-inline-images t
 org-pomodoro-length 50
 org-imenu-depth 999
 org-link-frame-setup '((file . find-file))
 org-return-follows-link t
 org-outline-path-complete-in-steps nil
 org-pomodoro-start-sound "/Users/salutis/.emacs.d/elpa/org-pomodoro-20190530.1445/resources/bell.wav"
 org-pomodoro-killed-hook '(my/org-clock-mode-line-enable)
 org-agenda-block-separator nil
 org-agenda-deadline-leaders '("Deadline: " "Deadline in %3d DAYS: "
                               "Deadline %2d days ago: ")
 )
-- 
"I love deadlines. I love the whooshing noise they make as they go by." -- Douglas Adams, The Salmon of Doubt

Rudolf Adamkovič <salutis@me.com> [he/him]
Studenohorská 25
84103 Bratislava
Slovakia

Re: [BUG] Prefer lowercase #+results [9.5.2 (release_9.5.2-3-geb9f34 @ /Users/salutis/src/emacs/nextstep/Emacs.app/Contents/Resources/lisp/org/)]

[Colin Baxter 😺]

>>>>> Rudolf Adamkovič <salutis@me.com> writes:

    > If I remember well, Org decided to suggest with lowercase keywords
    > (and use uppercase keywords in the manual, for some reason).
    > Then, we should change "org-babel-results-keyword" from "RESULTS"
    > to "results".

Change it for yourself. Please don't change the default. 

Re: [BUG] Prefer lowercase #+results [9.5.2 (release_9.5.2-3-geb9f34 @ /Users/salutis/src/emacs/nextstep/Emacs.app/Contents/Resources/lisp/org/)]

[Rudolf Adamkovič]

Colin Baxter 😺 <m43cap@yandex.com> writes:

> Change it for yourself.

I did.

> Please don't change the default.

Why?

-- 
"'Contrariwise,' continued Tweedledee, 'if it was so, it might be; and
if it were so, it would be; but as it isn't, it ain't. That's logic.'"
-- Lewis Carroll, Through the Looking Glass

Rudolf Adamkovič <salutis@me.com> [he/him]
Studenohorská 25
84103 Bratislava
Slovakia

Re: [BUG] Prefer lowercase #+results [9.5.2 (release_9.5.2-3-geb9f34 @ /Users/salutis/src/emacs/nextstep/Emacs.app/Contents/Resources/lisp/org/)]

[Tim Cross]

Rudolf Adamkovič <salutis@me.com> writes:

> If I remember well, Org decided to suggest with lowercase keywords (and
> use uppercase keywords in the manual, for some reason).  Then, we should
> change "org-babel-results-keyword" from "RESULTS" to "results".
>
> (1) Example #1
>
> #+begin_src R :results verbatim :wrap example
> […]
> #+end_src
>
> #+RESULT: [<--- inconsistent]
> #+begin_example
>
> […]
> #+end_example
>
> (2) Example #2
>
> #+begin_src R :results verbatim :wrap EXAMPLE
> […]
> #+end_src
>
>
> #+RESULT:
>
> #+begin_EXAMPLE [<---- still inconsistent]
> […]
> #+end_EXAMPLE
>
> P.S. Org should not leak potentially sensitive information, such as
> "/Users/salutis/", in the subject of its bug reports.
>
> Rudy
>

This is probably a can of worms not worth opening!

From a technical perspective, case does not matter. Originally, the
'styhle' was to use upper case letters for things like #+BEGIN et. al.
(which is probably why they are in upper case in the manual). 
Then (I think it was with the change to the code to insert block
markers) there was a change to use #+begin_*. However, I think for those
who reverted to the old block insertion method (now based on tempo), you
still get things in upper case.

The point is, the begin v BEGIN issue is to some extent bordering on
becoming a religious argument and one which is unlikely to gain
consensus. While personally I agree with your point and for consistency,
I think the default should be lower case, it really doesn't matter.
Everyone will have their personal preferences and while it is trivial to
set to your preferred format, it is one of those issues which will
likely generate lots of noise with little resolution.  

Re: [BUG] Prefer lowercase #+results [9.5.2 (release_9.5.2-3-geb9f34 @ /Users/salutis/src/emacs/nextstep/Emacs.app/Contents/Resources/lisp/org/)]

[Rudolf Adamkovič]

Tim Cross <theophilusx@gmail.com> writes:

> The point is, the begin v BEGIN issue is to some extent bordering on
> becoming a religious argument and one which is unlikely to gain
> consensus. While personally I agree with your point and for
> consistency, I think the default should be lower case, it really
> doesn't matter.  Everyone will have their personal preferences and
> while it is trivial to set to your preferred format, it is one of
> those issues which will likely generate lots of noise with little
> resolution.

Thank you for providing me with such a clear explanation!  To make my
point clear, I do not care about whether Org uses upper case or lower
case keywords, but I do care about consistency.  Specifically, I think
Emacs should not make new users fiddle with variables just to make its
behavior internally consistent.  Thus, while I do understand both the
"lowercase religion" and the "uppercase religion", I do not understand
the "inconsistency religion".

Rudy
-- 
"I love deadlines. I love the whooshing noise they make as they go by."
-- Douglas Adams, The Salmon of Doubt

Rudolf Adamkovič <salutis@me.com> [he/him]
Studenohorská 25
84103 Bratislava
Slovakia

Re: [BUG] Prefer lowercase #+results [9.5.2 (release_9.5.2-3-geb9f34 @ /Users/salutis/src/emacs/nextstep/Emacs.app/Contents/Resources/lisp/org/)]

[Gyro Funch]

On 2022-01-09 06:21 PM, Rudolf Adamkovič wrote:
> Thank you for providing me with such a clear explanation!  To make my
> point clear, I do not care about whether Org uses upper case or lower
> case keywords, but I do care about consistency.  Specifically, I think
> Emacs should not make new users fiddle with variables just to make its
> behavior internally consistent.  Thus, while I do understand both the
> "lowercase religion" and the "uppercase religion", I do not understand
> the "inconsistency religion".
> 
> Rudy

Consider Emerson's quote:

"A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds, adored by 
little statesmen and philosophers and divines. With consistency a great 
soul has simply nothing to do."

;-)

-gyro

Re: [BUG] Prefer lowercase #+results [9.5.2 (release_9.5.2-3-geb9f34 @ /Users/salutis/src/emacs/nextstep/Emacs.app/Contents/Resources/lisp/org/)]

[Timothy]

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Hi Gyro,

> Consider Emerson’s quote:
>
> “A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds, adored by little
> statesmen and philosophers and divines. With consistency a great soul has simply
> nothing to do.”

I think applying a quote about how societal expectations and norms can limit the
capacity for greatness of individuals, to … capitalisation is a bit of a stretch.

FWIW, I think it would be good to be internally consistent. #+RESULTS is
currently one of the few keywords inserted in upper case. Unless there’s a good
reason to distinguish it from other keywords (perhaps an argument could be made
that it should be treated differently because it is usually generated, not
inserted by the user?), I’d be in favour of changing the default to be
consistent.

All the best,
Timothy

Re: [BUG] Prefer lowercase #+results [9.5.2 (release_9.5.2-3-geb9f34 @ /Users/salutis/src/emacs/nextstep/Emacs.app/Contents/Resources/lisp/org/)]

[Kaushal Modi]

On Mon, Jan 10, 2022 at 8:35 AM Timothy <tecosaur@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> FWIW, I think it would be good to be internally consistent. #+RESULTS is
> currently one of the few keywords inserted in upper case. Unless there’s a good
> reason to distinguish it from other keywords (perhaps an argument could be made
> that it should be treated differently because it is usually generated, not
> inserted by the user?), I’d be in favour of changing the default to be
> consistent.

+1 for consistency. The Org parser does not care if the keywords are
upper or lower case.

So inserting the #+results keyword in lower-case would be a good
change towards improving the consistency.

Re: [BUG] Prefer lowercase #+results [9.5.2 (release_9.5.2-3-geb9f34 @ /Users/salutis/src/emacs/nextstep/Emacs.app/Contents/Resources/lisp/org/)]

[Colin Baxter 😺]

>>>>> Timothy  <tecosaur@gmail.com> writes:

    > Hi Gyro,
    >> Consider Emerson’s quote:
    >> 
    >> “A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds, adored
    >> by little statesmen and philosophers and divines. With
    >> consistency a great soul has simply nothing to do.”

    > I think applying a quote about how societal expectations and norms
    > can limit the capacity for greatness of individuals, to …
    > capitalisation is a bit of a stretch.

    > FWIW, I think it would be good to be internally
    > consistent. #+RESULTS is currently one of the few keywords
    > inserted in upper case. Unless there’s a good reason to
    > distinguish it from other keywords (perhaps an argument could be
    > made that it should be treated differently because it is usually
    > generated, not inserted by the user?), I’d be in favour of
    > changing the default to be consistent.

What is the point of changing a default? Users can change to whatever
they like, but a default is a default - i.e. remains fixed. Why a
particular default arose belongs to peculiarities of history. Do people
really want to revisit this year after year? The value of a
default is irrelevant: what is important is that it does not change,
once it is chosen, without some very good reason. I have not seen that
reason in this particular case. The arguments of consistency are
ephemeral.

Re: [BUG] Prefer lowercase #+results [9.5.2 (release_9.5.2-3-geb9f34 @ /Users/salutis/src/emacs/nextstep/Emacs.app/Contents/Resources/lisp/org/)]

[Ihor Radchenko]

Colin Baxter 😺 <m43cap@yandex.com> writes:

> What is the point of changing a default? Users can change to whatever
> they like, but a default is a default - i.e. remains fixed. Why a
> particular default arose belongs to peculiarities of history. Do people
> really want to revisit this year after year? The value of a
> default is irrelevant: what is important is that it does not change,
> once it is chosen, without some very good reason. I have not seen that
> reason in this particular case. The arguments of consistency are
> ephemeral.

For some more context, other functions are not really consistent about uppercase/lowercase:
- =org-insert-structure-template= lowercase
- =org-insert-drawer= uppercase
- =org-insert-property-drawer= uppercase
- =org-babel-exp-code-template= defaults to uppercase
- =org-clock-find-position= defaults to uppercase :END:
- =org-feed-write-status= defaults to uppercase
- =org-inlinetask-insert-task= defaults to uppercase
- =org-mobile-write-agenda-for-mobile= defaults to uppercase
- =org-babel-examplify-region= lowercase

I just looked for END vs end.

So, unless there is overwhelming support for changing uppercase
defaults into lowercase and a thorough patch, I am inclined towards
preserving the existing behaviour.

Changing just RESULTS keyword provides no benefit to making things
consistent.

Best,
Ihor

Re: [BUG] Prefer lowercase #+results [9.5.2 (release_9.5.2-3-geb9f34 @ /Users/salutis/src/emacs/nextstep/Emacs.app/Contents/Resources/lisp/org/)]

[Colin Baxter 😺]

>>>>> Ihor Radchenko <yantar92@gmail.com> writes:

    > Colin Baxter 😺 <m43cap@yandex.com> writes:
    >> What is the point of changing a default? Users can change to
    >> whatever they like, but a default is a default - i.e. remains
    >> fixed. Why a particular default arose belongs to peculiarities of
    >> history. Do people really want to revisit this year after year?
    >> The value of a default is irrelevant: what is important is that
    >> it does not change, once it is chosen, without some very good
    >> reason. I have not seen that reason in this particular case. The
    >> arguments of consistency are ephemeral.

    > For some more context, other functions are not really consistent
    > about uppercase/lowercase: - =org-insert-structure-template=
    > lowercase - =org-insert-drawer= uppercase -
    > =org-insert-property-drawer= uppercase -
    > =org-babel-exp-code-template= defaults to uppercase -
    > =org-clock-find-position= defaults to uppercase :END: -
    > =org-feed-write-status= defaults to uppercase -
    > =org-inlinetask-insert-task= defaults to uppercase -
    > =org-mobile-write-agenda-for-mobile= defaults to uppercase -
    > =org-babel-examplify-region= lowercase

    > I just looked for END vs end.

    > So, unless there is overwhelming support for changing uppercase
    > defaults into lowercase and a thorough patch, I am inclined
    > towards preserving the existing behaviour.

Agreed.

    > Changing just RESULTS keyword provides no benefit to making things
    > consistent.

Agreed.


Best - Colin

Re: [BUG] Prefer lowercase #+results [9.5.2 (release_9.5.2-3-geb9f34 @ /Users/salutis/src/emacs/nextstep/Emacs.app/Contents/Resources/lisp/org/)]

[Timothy]

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Hi Ihor,

> For some more context, other functions are not really consistent about uppercase/lowercase:
> - `org-insert-structure-template' lowercase
> - `org-insert-drawer' uppercase
> - `org-insert-property-drawer' uppercase
> - `org-babel-exp-code-template' defaults to uppercase
> - `org-clock-find-position' defaults to uppercase :END:
> - `org-feed-write-status' defaults to uppercase
> - `org-inlinetask-insert-task' defaults to uppercase
> - `org-mobile-write-agenda-for-mobile' defaults to uppercase
> - `org-babel-examplify-region' lowercase

Ok, I thought we were much closer to consistency than we seem to be. In that
case, I don’t see much point in /just/ changing #+results.

> So, unless there is overwhelming support for changing uppercase
> defaults into lowercase and a thorough patch, I am inclined towards
> preserving the existing behaviour.

I do think it would be nice if we went one way or the other (and from previous
discussion, lower case looks like the direction we’d go in), but it would have
to be across the board.

> Changing just RESULTS keyword provides no benefit to making things
> consistent.

Yep.

All the best,
Timothy

Re: [BUG] Prefer lowercase #+results [9.5.2 (release_9.5.2-3-geb9f34 @ /Users/salutis/src/emacs/nextstep/Emacs.app/Contents/Resources/lisp/org/)]

[Rudolf Adamkovič]

Ihor Radchenko <yantar92@gmail.com> writes:

> So, unless there is overwhelming support for changing uppercase
> defaults into lowercase and a thorough patch, I am inclined towards
> preserving the existing behaviour.

The results so far:

- For inconsistent defaults:
  Colin

- For consistent defaults:
  Rudy (me), Tim, Timothy, Kaushal

- Unknown:
  Gyro

Four times more people would like to see consistent defaults so far.
Does that count as overwhelming support? :)

> Changing just RESULTS keyword provides no benefit to making things
> consistent.

Agreed, like everyone else.

Rudy
-- 
"Programming reliably --- must be an activity of an undeniably
mathematical nature […] You see, mathematics is about thinking, and
doing mathematics is always trying to think as well as possible." --
Edsger W. Dijkstra (1981)

Rudolf Adamkovič <salutis@me.com> [he/him]
Studenohorská 25
84103 Bratislava
Slovakia

Re: [BUG] Prefer lowercase #+results [9.5.2 (release_9.5.2-3-geb9f34 @ /Users/salutis/src/emacs/nextstep/Emacs.app/Contents/Resources/lisp/org/)]

[William Denton]

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On 11 January 2022, Rudolf Adamkovič wrote:

> Four times more people would like to see consistent defaults so far.
> Does that count as overwhelming support? :)

I'm for consistent defaults too, and #+RESULTS looks wrong to me, but I suspect 
I'm one of many who isn't able to provide patches, doesn't really mind it enough 
to be terrifically bothered, is happy to live with it, and wouldn't mind if 
attention was directed to bigger issues.

Bill

--
William Denton
https://www.miskatonic.org/
Librarian, artist and licensed private investigator.
Toronto, Canada

Re: [BUG] Prefer lowercase #+results [9.5.2 (release_9.5.2-3-geb9f34 @ /Users/salutis/src/emacs/nextstep/Emacs.app/Contents/Resources/lisp/org/)]

[Colin Baxter 😺]

>>>>> Rudolf Adamkovič <salutis@me.com> writes:

    > Ihor Radchenko <yantar92@gmail.com> writes:
    >> So, unless there is overwhelming support for changing uppercase
    >> defaults into lowercase and a thorough patch, I am inclined
    >> towards preserving the existing behaviour.

    > The results so far:

    > - For inconsistent defaults: Colin

I did not write that. I wrote that I am for a default remaining a
default. Whether it is "consistent" or "inconsistent" is not
important. Once chosen it should stay fixed.

Re: [BUG] Prefer lowercase #+results [9.5.2 (release_9.5.2-3-geb9f34 @ /Users/salutis/src/emacs/nextstep/Emacs.app/Contents/Resources/lisp/org/)]

[Ihor Radchenko]

Rudolf Adamkovič <salutis@me.com> writes:

> The results so far:
>
> - For inconsistent defaults:
>   Colin
>
> - For consistent defaults:
>   Rudy (me), Tim, Timothy, Kaushal
>
> - Unknown:
>   Gyro
>
> Four times more people would like to see consistent defaults so far.
> Does that count as overwhelming support? :)

Bastien would count as overwhelming support :) Though seriously - I am
generally in favour of being consistent, but not to the point that I
prioritise it over fixing bugs and implementing new features. If someone
is bothered enough to spend time scanning all the instances of using
uppercase/lowercase keywords in Org sources, I can prepare a patch based
on that information.

Best,
Ihor

Re: [BUG] Prefer lowercase #+results [9.5.2 (release_9.5.2-3-geb9f34 @ /Users/salutis/src/emacs/nextstep/Emacs.app/Contents/Resources/lisp/org/)]

[Christopher M. Miles]

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I suggest to keep current defaults. Because I have lot of Org files, if changed, I have to do lot of
work to adopt files and might get wrong. It's very important.

-- 
[ stardiviner ]
       I try to make every word tell the meaning that I want to express.

       Blog: https://stardiviner.github.io/
       IRC(freenode): stardiviner, Matrix: stardiviner
       GPG: F09F650D7D674819892591401B5DF1C95AE89AC3

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Re: [BUG] Prefer lowercase #+results [9.5.2 (release_9.5.2-3-geb9f34 @ /Users/salutis/src/emacs/nextstep/Emacs.app/Contents/Resources/lisp/org/)]

[Timothy]

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Hi Christopher,

> I suggest to keep current defaults. Because I have lot of Org files, if changed, I have to do lot of
> work to adopt files and might get wrong. It’s very important.

Hmm. Upon inspection I see that some uses of `org-babel-results-keyword' are
indeed case-sensitive. This comes as a surprise to me, as I thought that /all/
keywords were parsed in a case-insensitive manner.

Is there a good reason for this?

At a glance, I’d personally be tempted to make the use case insensitive, and
only use `org-babel-results-keyword' when inserting, or remove it all together.

All the best,
Timothy

Re: [BUG] Prefer lowercase #+results [9.5.2 (release_9.5.2-3-geb9f34 @ /Users/salutis/src/emacs/nextstep/Emacs.app/Contents/Resources/lisp/org/)]

[Ihor Radchenko]

Timothy <tecosaur@gmail.com> writes:

> Hmm. Upon inspection I see that some uses of `org-babel-results-keyword' are
> indeed case-sensitive. This comes as a surprise to me, as I thought that /all/
> keywords were parsed in a case-insensitive manner.
>
> Is there a good reason for this?

Could you elaborate on this? It should not be case-sensitive, AFAIK.

Best,
Ihor

Re: [BUG] Prefer lowercase #+results [9.5.2 (release_9.5.2-3-geb9f34 @ /Users/salutis/src/emacs/nextstep/Emacs.app/Contents/Resources/lisp/org/)]

[Christopher M. Miles]

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Timothy <tecosaur@gmail.com> writes:

> Hi Christopher,
>
>> I suggest to keep current defaults. Because I have lot of Org files, if changed, I have to do lot of
>> work to adopt files and might get wrong. It’s very important.
>
> Hmm. Upon inspection I see that some uses of `org-babel-results-keyword' are
> indeed case-sensitive. This comes as a surprise to me, as I thought that /all/
> keywords were parsed in a case-insensitive manner.
>
> Is there a good reason for this?
>
> At a glance, I’d personally be tempted to make the use case insensitive, and
> only use `org-babel-results-keyword' when inserting, or remove it all together.
>
> All the best,
> Timothy

Me too, I hope it can be case-insensitive, if org-mode internal has already case-sensitive
processing. I suggest to keep one standard. I remember used to blocks like ~#+BEGIN_SRC~ etc are
uppercase by default. Latter changed into lowercase. Then I did a lot of work to replace them. If we
need to use lowercase, I suggest to use them all. It might improve regexp matching speed? Don't know......

-- 
[ stardiviner ]
       I try to make every word tell the meaning that I want to express.

       Blog: https://stardiviner.github.io/
       IRC(freenode): stardiviner, Matrix: stardiviner
       GPG: F09F650D7D674819892591401B5DF1C95AE89AC3

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Re: [BUG] Prefer lowercase #+results [9.5.2 (release_9.5.2-3-geb9f34 @ /Users/salutis/src/emacs/nextstep/Emacs.app/Contents/Resources/lisp/org/)]

[Timothy]

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Hi Ihor,

>> Hmm. Upon inspection I see that some uses of `org-babel-results-keyword’ are
>> indeed case-sensitive. This comes as a surprise to me, as I thought that /all/
>> keywords were parsed in a case-insensitive manner.
>>
>> Is there a good reason for this?
>
> Could you elaborate on this? It should not be case-sensitive, AFAIK.

I had a quick glance earlier. Having another look, I misread the code (I thought
I saw `(case-fold-search nil)' but it’s actually `(case-fold-search t)').

So, the two uses of `org-babel-results-keyword' are `org-babel-find-named-result'
and `org-babel--insert-results-keyword'.

`org-babel--insert-results-keyword' just inserts `org-babel-results-keyword'
verbatim. `org-babel-find-named-result' searches for it with `(case-fold-search t)'.

All the best,
Timothy

Re: [BUG] Prefer lowercase #+results [9.5.2 (release_9.5.2-3-geb9f34 @ /Users/salutis/src/emacs/nextstep/Emacs.app/Contents/Resources/lisp/org/)]

[Timothy]

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Hi Christopher,

>> Is there a good reason for this?
>>
>> At a glance, I’d personally be tempted to make the use case insensitive, and
>> only use `org-babel-results-keyword’ when inserting, or remove it all together.
>
> Me too, I hope it can be case-insensitive, if org-mode internal has already case-sensitive
> processing. I suggest to keep one standard. I remember used to blocks like `#+BEGIN_SRC' etc are
> uppercase by default. Latter changed into lowercase. Then I did a lot of work to replace them. If we
> need to use lowercase, I suggest to use them all. It might improve regexp matching speed? Don’t know……

See my reply to Ihor, I actually misread the code. It *is* case insensitive (as it
should be). So, changing the default capitalisation of `org-babel-results-keyword'
would have no effect on the interpretation or function of existing documents.

Based on your comments on converting block case, maybe it would be worth
providing a function to normalise the case in an Org document?

All the best,
Timothy

Re: [BUG] Prefer lowercase #+results [9.5.2 (release_9.5.2-3-geb9f34 @ /Users/salutis/src/emacs/nextstep/Emacs.app/Contents/Resources/lisp/org/)]

[Christopher M. Miles]

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Timothy <tecosaur@gmail.com> writes:

> Hi Christopher,
>
>>> Is there a good reason for this?
>>>
>>> At a glance, I’d personally be tempted to make the use case insensitive, and
>>> only use `org-babel-results-keyword’ when inserting, or remove it all together.
>>
>> Me too, I hope it can be case-insensitive, if org-mode internal has already case-sensitive
>> processing. I suggest to keep one standard. I remember used to blocks like `#+BEGIN_SRC' etc are
>> uppercase by default. Latter changed into lowercase. Then I did a lot of work to replace them. If we
>> need to use lowercase, I suggest to use them all. It might improve regexp matching speed? Don’t know……
>
> See my reply to Ihor, I actually misread the code. It *is* case insensitive (as it
> should be). So, changing the default capitalisation of `org-babel-results-keyword'
> would have no effect on the interpretation or function of existing documents.
>
> Based on your comments on converting block case, maybe it would be worth
> providing a function to normalise the case in an Org document?
>
> All the best,
> Timothy

Indeed, there is a similar purpose function:

#+begin_src emacs-lisp
(defun modi/lower-case-org-keywords ()
  "Lower case Org keywords and block identifiers.

Example: \"#+TITLE\" -> \"#+title\"
         \"#+BEGIN_EXAMPLE\" -> \"#+begin_example\"

Inspiration:
https://code.orgmode.org/bzg/org-mode/commit/13424336a6f30c50952d291e7a82906c1210daf0."
  (interactive)
  (save-excursion
    (goto-char (point-min))
    (let ((case-fold-search nil)
          (count 0))
      ;; Match examples: "#+FOO bar", "#+FOO:", "=#+FOO=", "~#+FOO~",
      ;;                 "‘#+FOO’", "“#+FOO”", ",#+FOO bar",
      ;;                 "#+FOO_bar<eol>", "#+FOO<eol>".
      (while (re-search-forward "\\(?1:#\\+[A-Z_]+\\(?:_[[:alpha:]]+\\)*\\)\\(?:[ :=~’”]\\|$\\)" nil :noerror)
        (setq count (1+ count))
        (replace-match (downcase (match-string-no-properties 1)) :fixedcase nil nil 1))
      (message "Lower-cased %d matches" count))))
#+end_src

-- 
[ stardiviner ]
       I try to make every word tell the meaning that I want to express.

       Blog: https://stardiviner.github.io/
       IRC(freenode): stardiviner, Matrix: stardiviner
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Re: [BUG] Prefer lowercase #+results [9.5.2 (release_9.5.2-3-geb9f34 @ /Users/salutis/src/emacs/nextstep/Emacs.app/Contents/Resources/lisp/org/)]

[Ihor Radchenko]

> I suggest to keep current defaults. Because I have lot of Org files, if changed, I have to do lot of
> work to adopt files and might get wrong. It's very important.

Org mode does not distinguish the _meaning_ of all keywords regardless
of their case. Including src blocks and results. If it is not the case,
it should be a bug (and please report it then). So, you should have no
need to change keyword case in your existing documents except for your
visual satisfaction.

What we are discussing here is the visual appearance of how the keywords
are inserted by default. Nothing functional.

Best,
Ihor

Re: [BUG] Prefer lowercase #+results [9.5.2 (release_9.5.2-3-geb9f34 @ /Users/salutis/src/emacs/nextstep/Emacs.app/Contents/Resources/lisp/org/)]

[Christopher M. Miles]

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Ihor Radchenko <yantar92@gmail.com> writes:

>> I suggest to keep current defaults. Because I have lot of Org files, if changed, I have to do lot of
>> work to adopt files and might get wrong. It's very important.
>
> Org mode does not distinguish the _meaning_ of all keywords regardless
> of their case. Including src blocks and results. If it is not the case,
> it should be a bug (and please report it then). So, you should have no
> need to change keyword case in your existing documents except for your
> visual satisfaction.
>
> What we are discussing here is the visual appearance of how the keywords
> are inserted by default. Nothing functional.
>
> Best,
> Ihor

That's the best, thanks for explanation.

-- 
[ stardiviner ]
       I try to make every word tell the meaning that I want to express.

       Blog: https://stardiviner.github.io/
       IRC(freenode): stardiviner, Matrix: stardiviner
       GPG: F09F650D7D674819892591401B5DF1C95AE89AC3

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