Reply-All noise

Reply-All noise

[c.buhtz]

Hi,

I had this discussion in several mailinglists but gave up.

But I am suprised to see this phenomenon in a emacs related (means:
"super nerdy") mailinglist, too.

So tell me please how do you handle this "problem"? Or do I setup
something wrong with my list account?

From my point of view, the problem is that most of you press "Reply
All" when answering to a mailinglist posting. But that is IMO wrong
because you answer to the list AND to the thread opener in that case.

So the thread opener receive two (nearly) identical messages.

Do you receive double mails? Doesn't it bother you?

Re: Reply-All noise

[tomas]

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On Fri, Oct 09, 2020 at 09:24:34PM +0200, c.buhtz@posteo.jp wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> I had this discussion in several mailinglists but gave up.
> 
> But I am suprised to see this phenomenon in a emacs related (means:
> "super nerdy") mailinglist, too.
> 
> So tell me please how do you handle this "problem"? Or do I setup
> something wrong with my list account?

There is no clear-cut answer to that. For mailing lists which allow
posting by non-subscribers (this is one), reply-to-all makes more
sense to reply-to-all, since you can't be sure that everyone is
subscribed.

As for what I do, I have a mail filter (procmail) which weeds out
duplicates fairly effectively.

For this list, specifically, which is managed by Mailman, you can
tell the list manager [1] to not send you a duplicate when your
address is in the To: or Cc: header field. Note that you'll get
the copy sent to you, not the one sent via the list; if you are
filtering based on list headers, this might not be what you want.

To appreciate the whole "interesting" complexity see [2]. In a
nutshell, there's no ideal solution working for all tastes.

Cheers

[1] https://www.gnu.org/software/mailman/mailman-member/node21.html
[2] http://david.woodhou.se/reply-to-list.html

 - t

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Re: Reply-All noise

[tomas]

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On Fri, Oct 09, 2020 at 10:10:41PM +0200, tomas@tuxteam.de wrote:
> On Fri, Oct 09, 2020 at 09:24:34PM +0200, c.buhtz@posteo.jp wrote:
> > Hi,

[...]

> There is no clear-cut answer to that [...]

You might also want to experiment with setting the Mail-Followup-To:
header [1] in your mails to the list (I have no experience with that,
so take with a fist of salt!).

No idea how many MUAs out there will support that -- and whether your
reply "in the middle of a thread" would break that thread for non-
subscribers.

Cheers

[1] https://cr.yp.to/proto/replyto.html

 - t



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Re: Reply-All noise

[Tory S. Anderson]

I do use reply-to-all (gnus-style), but I don't notice doubles. It might be because I have my client set up to do deduping, though.

<c.buhtz@posteo.jp> writes:

> Hi,
>
> I had this discussion in several mailinglists but gave up.
>
> But I am suprised to see this phenomenon in a emacs related (means:
> "super nerdy") mailinglist, too.
>
> So tell me please how do you handle this "problem"? Or do I setup
> something wrong with my list account?
>
> From my point of view, the problem is that most of you press "Reply
> All" when answering to a mailinglist posting. But that is IMO wrong
> because you answer to the list AND to the thread opener in that case.
>
> So the thread opener receive two (nearly) identical messages.
>
> Do you receive double mails? Doesn't it bother you?

Re: Reply-All noise

[Maxim Nikulin]

10.10.2020 02:24, c.buhtz@posteo.jp wrote:
> 
> So tell me please how do you handle this "problem"? Or do I setup
> something wrong with my list account?
> 
>  From my point of view, the problem is that most of you press "Reply
> All" when answering to a mailinglist posting. But that is IMO wrong
> because you answer to the list AND to the thread opener in that case.

I have not tried myself the following suggestions from another mail 
list, so I do not know real value of them or non-obvious drawbacks:

1. Use "duplicate" sieve extension. FRC7352 (not 7353). It is supported 
e.g. by dovecot
https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc7352 Sieve Email Filtering: Detecting 
Duplicate Deliveries
https://wiki2.dovecot.org/Pigeonhole/Sieve/Extensions/Duplicate 
Pigeonhole Sieve: Duplicate Extension

2. Just add filter that drops messages having mail list in To or Cc but 
have not passed mail list server.

Re: Reply-All noise

[c.buhtz]

On 2020-10-10 15:03 Maxim Nikulin <manikulin@gmail.com> wrote:
> 1. Use "duplicate" sieve extension.
> [..]
> 
> 2. Just add filter
> [..]

This are workarounds but not solutions.

IMO the problem is the list user that "Answers to all".

Why should I modify my system because another one make errors?

Re: Reply-All noise

[c.buhtz]

There is a "Sender:" header entry I can filter on.

But I do not setup anything because I don't case the problem.

Btw: It is nice that all of you using Gnus and (maybe) a local
mailserver with powerfull filtering. I don't.

It is kind of a religious problem. :D

Isn't there a setting on the mailinglist site (e.g. mailman) that can
handle problems like this?

Kind

Re: Reply-All noise

[tomas]

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On Sat, Oct 10, 2020 at 10:53:08AM +0200, c.buhtz@posteo.jp wrote:
> On 2020-10-10 15:03 Maxim Nikulin <manikulin@gmail.com> wrote:
> > 1. Use "duplicate" sieve extension.
> > [..]
> > 
> > 2. Just add filter
> > [..]
> 
> This are workarounds but not solutions.
> 
> IMO the problem is the list user that "Answers to all".

"The problem are always the others". Way to go!

Did you read the reference I sent in reply to you? Did you take
into account that this list is open to non-subscribers?

> Why should I modify my system because another one make errors?

It's not "errors". It's the way an open mailing list works.

Entering a room and yelling "Hey, all of you stop doing things
the way you're doing it. I'm gonna tell ya how you gotta do
things now" is, to put it politely, slightly unpolite :-)

Cheers
 - t

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Re: Reply-All noise

[tomas]

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On Sat, Oct 10, 2020 at 10:57:26AM +0200, c.buhtz@posteo.jp wrote:
> There is a "Sender:" header entry I can filter on.
> 
> But I do not setup anything because I don't case the problem.

I don't unerstand this sentence.

> Btw: It is nice that all of you using Gnus and (maybe) a local
> mailserver with powerfull filtering. I don't.

FWIW, I'm using mutt (I plan to switch to gnus some day, but that's
irrelevant).

> It is kind of a religious problem. :D

Fine. You keep your religion, others keep their religions. Don't try
to force your religion on me: I might turn nasty.

> Isn't there a setting on the mailinglist site (e.g. mailman) that can
> handle problems like this?

I made myself quite a bit of work to explain to you what you can do.
Even with a link to mailman docs on how you can set your subscription
settings.

Do you read the responses you receive?

Cheers
 - t

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Re: Reply-All noise

[c.buhtz]

On 2020-10-10 11:10 <tomas@tuxteam.de> wrote:
> I made myself quite a bit of work to explain to you what you can do.
> Even with a link to mailman docs on how you can set your subscription
> settings.

You did not. You wrote

> experiment with setting the Mail-Followup-To: header [1]

and pointed to
https://cr.yp.to/proto/replyto.html

The context of that "setting" is missing. I did not understand that
you wrote about mailman. You do not gave enough information but an
potentially insecure URL.

I couldn't find a setting named "Mail-Followup-To: header" but "Avoid
duplicate copies of messages?"

kind

Re: Reply-All noise

[Maxim Nikulin]

10.10.2020 15:53, c.buhtz@posteo.jp wrote:
> On 2020-10-10 15:03 Maxim Nikulin <manikulin@gmail.com> wrote:
>> 1. Use "duplicate" sieve extension.
>> [..]
>>
>> 2. Just add filter
>> [..]
> 
> This are workarounds but not solutions.

Certainly.

> IMO the problem is the list user that "Answers to all".
> 
> Why should I modify my system because another one make errors?

Just because people make errors. Most of them do not care and they do 
not have any problem. Even ones, who aware, sometimes press wrong 
button. Relax. If it is so annoying for you, I am afraid, the only 
option is to fix it on your side.

There are a lot of wide spread ways to use email in a "strange" way. 
Usually discomfort, even if noticed, does not deserve efforts to enforce 
strict rules. You might achieve more results in educating people, how to 
use email properly, by telling your friends and colleagues a story how 
you made your life better by arranging a couple of filtering rules.

10.10.2020 15:57, c.buhtz@posteo.jp wrote
 >
 > Btw: It is nice that all of you using Gnus and (maybe) a local
 > mailserver with powerfull filtering. I don't.

I do not see any reason to complain concerning features available on the 
server of your email provider

curl --location 
https://posteo.jp/.well-known/autoconfig/mail/config-v1.1.xml
curl: (51) SSL: no alternative certificate subject name matches target 
host name 'posteo.jp'

curl --location --insecure 
https://posteo.jp/.well-known/autoconfig/mail/config-v1.1.xml | grep 
--after-context=1 imap
     <incomingServer type="imap">
       <hostname>posteo.de</hostname>

openssl s_client --starttls sieve -connect posteo.de:sieve

"IMPLEMENTATION" "Dovecot Pigeonhole"
"SIEVE" "fileinto reject envelope encoded-character vacation subaddress 
comparator-i;ascii-numeric relational regex imap4flags copy include 
variables body enotify environment mailbox date ihave vnd.dovecot.duplicate"

P.S. Despite I believe that reply should be sent to the list only unless 
sender explicitly asked to to retain her/his address in Cc, I do not 
think it is worth struggling with people who intentionally use reply to 
all or do not care.

Re: Reply-All noise

[Jens Lechtenboerger]

On 2020-10-09, tomas@tuxteam.de wrote:

> On Fri, Oct 09, 2020 at 10:10:41PM +0200, tomas@tuxteam.de wrote:
>> On Fri, Oct 09, 2020 at 09:24:34PM +0200, c.buhtz@posteo.jp wrote:
>> > Hi,
>
> [...]
>
>> There is no clear-cut answer to that [...]
>
> You might also want to experiment with setting the Mail-Followup-To:
> header [1] in your mails to the list (I have no experience with that,
> so take with a fist of salt!).
> [...]
> [1] https://cr.yp.to/proto/replyto.html

That is what I’m using with Gnus, see [2].  In my case,
message-subscribed-addresses contains "emacs-orgmode@gnu.org".

With that setting I say: Please send replies just to the list, not
to me individually.

Best wishes
Jens

[2] https://www.gnu.org/software/emacs/manual/html_node/message/Mailing-Lists.html

Re: Reply-All noise

[c.buhtz]

On 2020-10-10 20:57 Maxim Nikulin <manikulin@gmail.com> wrote:
> openssl s_client --starttls sieve -connect posteo.de:sieve
> 
> "IMPLEMENTATION" "Dovecot Pigeonhole"

Great!

I knew and intensiv used "sieve" on my posteo.de Server.
But sieve-Support was unofficial and they simply deactivated it without
reason or any news about it.

I asked often and also by physical mail to the CEO of the company to
turn it on again. But no reaction. I never tried after that.

Now you gave the hint that it is activated again. Great. :)

I used a nice double-post-on-mailing-list-filter via this sieve file in
the past. But my problem was that it was deactivated.

Re: Reply-All noise

[Eric S Fraga]

On Saturday, 10 Oct 2020 at 10:53, c.buhtz@posteo.jp wrote:
> IMO the problem is the list user that "Answers to all".

But this is *not* the problem as the org mode mailing list is open,
i.e. anybody can post whether they subscribe or not.  Hence, replying to
all is actually the safest option.

The problem, if there is one, is to use a mail reading tool that doesn't
show you emails you've already seen again.  gnus, for instance.

> Why should I modify my system because another one make errors?

Not an error so either modify or live with it?  I am not trying to be
snarky or rude, simply stating the options for *this* particular mailing
list.  For other lists, the situation could be different, as it would
be with newsgroups of old where it was common practice to ask for email
followups with the promise of a summary of results afterwards.

-- 
: Eric S Fraga via Emacs 28.0.50, Org release_9.4-38-g16f505

Re: Reply-All noise

[c.buhtz]

On 2020-10-11 14:58 Eric S Fraga <e.fraga@ucl.ac.uk> wrote:
> the org mode mailing list is open,

I never understood the benefit of an "open" mailinglist. But I am not
the center of the universe. ;)

> I am not trying to be snarky or rude

Your are not. Everything is fine.

> For other lists, the situation could
> be different, as it would be with newsgroups

Yeah, I think it is the root of my "problem". I am from the
usenet/newsgroups age. I miss it.

From my point of view mailinglists and web-forums are a step back in
usability and efficiency.

But there is just one exception (just IMO): StackExchange e.g.
StackOverflow. ;)

Re: Reply-All noise

[Eric S Fraga]

On Sunday, 11 Oct 2020 at 16:35, c.buhtz@posteo.jp wrote:
> From my point of view mailinglists and web-forums are a step back in
> usability and efficiency.

On this, we can definitely agree!  Newsgroups are still the best way to
have these types of conversations.

> But there is just one exception (just IMO): StackExchange e.g.
> StackOverflow. ;)

But here I disagree: I hate using the browser for anything other than
reading or banking.  But that's me.

-- 
: Eric S Fraga via Emacs 28.0.50, Org release_9.4-38-g16f505

Re: Reply-All noise

[Tim Cross]

Eric S Fraga <e.fraga@ucl.ac.uk> writes:

> On Sunday, 11 Oct 2020 at 16:35, c.buhtz@posteo.jp wrote:
>> From my point of view mailinglists and web-forums are a step back in
>> usability and efficiency.
>
> On this, we can definitely agree!  Newsgroups are still the best way to
> have these types of conversations.
>
>> But there is just one exception (just IMO): StackExchange e.g.
>> StackOverflow. ;)
>
> But here I disagree: I hate using the browser for anything other than
> reading or banking.  But that's me.

I am the same. One thing I do which has reduced the pain is to use the
'Edit with Emacs' Chrome extension. At least now, when I'm required to
provide text input, I can do so from within Emacs.

There is also an Emacs mode for stackOverflow/stackExchange sites. I've
not used it for a while, but it wasn't too bad and would allow you to do
your SO searching/browsing/replying from within Emacs. Main drawback was
the auth2 stuff - you have to use the web browser to get a login token.

I do miss the old newsgroups. I use to very much enjoy starting my day
with a Gnus+NNTP session! I've never gotten use to the whole IM stuff
and things like slack, but I never really got into IRC either.

Tim

-- 
Tim Cross

Re: Reply-All noise

[Eric Abrahamsen]

Tim Cross <theophilusx@gmail.com> writes:

> Eric S Fraga <e.fraga@ucl.ac.uk> writes:
>
>> On Sunday, 11 Oct 2020 at 16:35, c.buhtz@posteo.jp wrote:
>>> From my point of view mailinglists and web-forums are a step back in
>>> usability and efficiency.
>>
>> On this, we can definitely agree!  Newsgroups are still the best way to
>> have these types of conversations.
>>
>>> But there is just one exception (just IMO): StackExchange e.g.
>>> StackOverflow. ;)
>>
>> But here I disagree: I hate using the browser for anything other than
>> reading or banking.  But that's me.
>
> I am the same. One thing I do which has reduced the pain is to use the
> 'Edit with Emacs' Chrome extension. At least now, when I'm required to
> provide text input, I can do so from within Emacs.
>
> There is also an Emacs mode for stackOverflow/stackExchange sites. I've
> not used it for a while, but it wasn't too bad and would allow you to do
> your SO searching/browsing/replying from within Emacs. Main drawback was
> the auth2 stuff - you have to use the web browser to get a login token.
>
> I do miss the old newsgroups. I use to very much enjoy starting my day
> with a Gnus+NNTP session!

Some of us are stilling starting the day that way :)

Re: Reply-All noise

[Russell Adams]

On Fri, Oct 09, 2020 at 10:10:41PM +0200, tomas@tuxteam.de wrote:
> For mailing lists which allow posting by non-subscribers (this is one),

Org-mode is a subscriber only mailing list. It does not allow
non-members to post for spam prevention.

If you did not have to subscribe to the mailing list when you started
posting to it, then you likely had your message manually accepted by a
volunteer moderator and they added you to the subscriber list.

Email etiquette is something that has been declining over
time. Welcome to the next stage of Eternal September.

------------------------------------------------------------------
Russell Adams                            RLAdams@AdamsInfoServ.com

PGP Key ID:     0x1160DCB3           http://www.adamsinfoserv.com/

Fingerprint:    1723 D8CA 4280 1EC9 557F  66E8 1154 E018 1160 DCB3

Re: Reply-All noise

[Eric S Fraga]

On Friday, 30 Oct 2020 at 12:30, Russell Adams wrote:
> Welcome to the next stage of Eternal September.

;-)

$ sdate
Fri 9922 Sep 11:58:07 GMT 1993
$

-- 
: Eric S Fraga via Emacs 28.0.50, Org release_9.4-61-ga88806.dirty

Re: Reply-All noise

[Anthony Carrico]

On 10/9/20 3:24 PM, c.buhtz@posteo.jp wrote:
> Do you receive double mails? Doesn't it bother you?

Normally I would agree with you, but there is a very simple explanation 
for this particular list: This mailing list is very high traffic and 
people can't pay attention all the time.

I automatically filter it out of my email and look at it occasionally, 
so I miss most of the discussion, which is fine, except if I submit a 
patch or an issue, etc., and weeks or months later activity moves toward 
my patch/issue/etc. Basically, you need to reply-all to wake people up 
when a topic that interests them comes around.

-- 
Anthony Carrico