Questions on LaTeX Exporter

Questions on LaTeX Exporter

[Rasmus]

Hi, 

I am trying to move more seriouse text tasks from AUCTeX to Org. Mostly
because it allows me to link to pdf articles, and have * COMMENT in the
same file.

However, I have noticed at least one non-acceptable issue. When using
using English, LaTeX (via Babel or just default) full-stops (≈double
space) will be inserted after dots. However, with abbrevation one would
use an ordinary space (i.e.\ an escaped space ("\ ") in LaTeX). Org does
not seem to notice abbrivations—how could it?—and further "\ " is
interpreted literaly. I need to have an escaped space.

One solution, which would yield much overheat, would be to use babel and
LaTeX fragments. See:

  http://repo.or.cz/w/Worg.git/blob_plain/HEAD:/org-contrib/babel/examples/o18.org

Also, for fixme notes, I use =[[latex:fixme][insert citation]]= at the
moment. Does anybody have a nicer solution? For example, having the
fixme note folded, placed in a footnote or similar?

-- 
Thanks,
Rasmus

Re: Questions on LaTeX Exporter

[Thomas S. Dye]

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Aloha Rasmus,

On Mar 5, 2011, at 10:50 AM, Rasmus wrote:

> Hi,
>
> I am trying to move more seriouse text tasks from AUCTeX to Org.  
> Mostly
> because it allows me to link to pdf articles, and have * COMMENT in  
> the
> same file.
>

This would make you an "early adopter."  I haven't been able to solve  
all the issues translating from Org-mode to LaTeX yet, but I recently  
completed a conference paper without using babel code blocks and it  
looks fine.  Of course, the paper doesn't have abbreviations that end  
with dots ...

> However, I have noticed at least one non-acceptable issue. When using
> using English, LaTeX (via Babel or just default) full-stops (≈double
> space) will be inserted after dots. However, with abbrevation one  
> would
> use an ordinary space (i.e.\ an escaped space ("\ ") in LaTeX). Org  
> does
> not seem to notice abbrivations—how could it?—and further "\ " is
> interpreted literaly. I need to have an escaped space.
>
> One solution, which would yield much overheat, would be to use babel  
> and
> LaTeX fragments. See:
>
>  http://repo.or.cz/w/Worg.git/blob_plain/HEAD:/org-contrib/babel/examples/o18.org
>

Yes, and the overhead does get in the way, at least for my writing  
projects.  Literate programming of prose, which is essentially what  
LaTeX code blocks in babel yield, is a bit different than LP for a  
software project.  In my experience, prose blocks don't require as  
much explanation as source code often does, so some of the rationale  
for literate programming isn't applicable, and it is very difficult,  
at least for me, to stitch together good prose if isn't organized  
linearly.  A typical paragraph isn't as independent as a well-written  
function.  I haven't figured out how to write a generic segue.

On the other hand, I think it is the only way currently to get from  
Org-mode to perfect LaTeX.

> Also, for fixme notes, I use =[[latex:fixme][insert citation]]= at the
> moment. Does anybody have a nicer solution? For example, having the
> fixme note folded, placed in a footnote or similar?
>

If you figure this one out, please share.  I've been over-using the  
extensible link syntax.  It is great, no doubt about it, but after a  
while it feels like I'm working for Org-mode rather than the other way  
round.

All the best,
Tom

> -- 
> Thanks,
> Rasmus
>
>
>


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Re: Questions on LaTeX Exporter

[Rasmus]

Hi,

> This would make you an "early adopter."

Well, to be fair the latex exporter have been there for years and I have
used it for non-important documents for years. But papers utilizing more
features have proven difficult, so far.

> Of course, the paper doesn't have abbreviations that end  with dots ...
The problem might be traced back to my less-than-stylish prose :)

> Yes, and the overhead does get in the way, at least for my writing
> projects.

With folding, AUCTeX buffers become quite readable. But linking, plannig
and TODOs are nice. Previously, I have had a notes.org and several
tex files.


> On the other hand, I think it is the only way currently to get from
> Org-mode to perfect LaTeX.

... And in that case AUCTeX provide a nicer environment in my
oppinion. Org would be nice for text heavy documents, though.

>> Fixme in Org
> If you figure this one out, please share
I haven't. I think one of either of the following would be nice.

   1) Have them fold like I do in AUCTeX (i.e. \fxnote{·} is replaced by
      [fix] in the buffer)
   2) Use special footnotes. This could be an org-centric system, without
      the need of fixme.sty. This would require that Org could tell the
      difference between fn:x and fix:x, and further, one would need to
      be able to specify which set(s) of footnotes were to be exported.

*More questions, sorry*

Org populates every section with a label. I would
like to \ref or \vref these. I could predict \label's, but this a rather
fragile solution. When I use "Org-links" I get a text link suitable
for e.g. html. I want to use \ref to get a number. One solution is

,----
|   * section
|   #+latex: \label{sec:sec}
`----

But there /must/ be a better way to this, eh?

And other question, which should also be simple, but which I have not been
able to figure out.

I have internalized word count in my org file using babel:

,----
| ** Getting Word Count
| #+srcname: wordcount
| #+BEGIN_SRC sh
|   #!/bin/bash
|   alias calc='Rscript -e "cat( file=stdout(), eval( parse( text=paste( 
commandArgs(TRUE), collapse=\"\"))),\"\n\")"'
|   calc `texcount -inc -sum -relaxed -1 -q -total assignment.tex`/400
| #+END_SRC
|
| #+results: wordcount
| : 0.6425
`----

First, this should be evaluated post-export, but this is a trival issue
as I can export the document in question twice. However, I want to
include the result in a \thanks{·}-node in the #+TITLE.

I have tried varioues methods, but so far without luck. To given an
example, I want to replace X by the results of my Babel-snip in the
following:

,----
| #+TITLE: \Large Education in Labor Markets With Asymmetric 
Information\thanks{Approximatly X words using \TeX Count}
`----

Thanks in advance,
Rasmus

Re: Questions on LaTeX Exporter

[Thomas S. Dye]

Aloha Rasmus,

On Mar 6, 2011, at 3:21 AM, Rasmus wrote:

> Hi,
>
>> This would make you an "early adopter."
>
> Well, to be fair the latex exporter have been there for years and I  
> have
> used it for non-important documents for years. But papers utilizing  
> more
> features have proven difficult, so far.
>

I didn't mean to imply any criticism of the Org-mode LaTeX exporter.   
It was designed to export notes and does a fantastic job of that.  The  
fact that we are wanting to use it for other kinds of more complex  
documents is testament to how good it is.

>> Of course, the paper doesn't have abbreviations that end  with  
>> dots ...
> The problem might be traced back to my less-than-stylish prose :)
>

No problem.  My conference paper is not very complex, but I am very  
happy with the LaTeX code produced by Org-mode.  The paper itself was  
easy to write in Org-mode and I am a big fan of having everything in  
one file.  I'd like to write larger, more complex documents in Org- 
mode, too.

>> Yes, and the overhead does get in the way, at least for my writing
>> projects.
>
> With folding, AUCTeX buffers become quite readable. But linking,  
> plannig
> and TODOs are nice. Previously, I have had a notes.org and several
> tex files.
>
>
>> On the other hand, I think it is the only way currently to get from
>> Org-mode to perfect LaTeX.
>
> ... And in that case AUCTeX provide a nicer environment in my
> oppinion. Org would be nice for text heavy documents, though.
>

Yes, AucTeX sets a high standard.

>>> Fixme in Org
>> If you figure this one out, please share
> I haven't. I think one of either of the following would be nice.
>
>  1) Have them fold like I do in AUCTeX (i.e. \fxnote{·} is replaced by
>     [fix] in the buffer)
>  2) Use special footnotes. This could be an org-centric system,  
> without
>     the need of fixme.sty. This would require that Org could tell the
>     difference between fn:x and fix:x, and further, one would need to
>     be able to specify which set(s) of footnotes were to be exported.
>
> *More questions, sorry*
>
> Org populates every section with a label. I would
> like to \ref or \vref these. I could predict \label's, but this a  
> rather
> fragile solution. When I use "Org-links" I get a text link suitable
> for e.g. html. I want to use \ref to get a number. One solution is
>
> ,----
> |   * section
> |   #+latex: \label{sec:sec}
> `----
>
> But there /must/ be a better way to this, eh?

Good point.  It would be great to leverage Org-links to resolve cross  
references to document sections.

>
> And other question, which should also be simple, but which I have  
> not been
> able to figure out.
>
> I have internalized word count in my org file using babel:
>
> ,----
> | ** Getting Word Count
> | #+srcname: wordcount
> | #+BEGIN_SRC sh
> |   #!/bin/bash
> |   alias calc='Rscript -e "cat( file=stdout(),  
> eval( parse( text=paste( commandArgs(TRUE), collapse=\"\"))),\"\n\")"'
> |   calc `texcount -inc -sum -relaxed -1 -q -total assignment.tex`/400
> | #+END_SRC
> |
> | #+results: wordcount
> | : 0.6425
> `----
>
> First, this should be evaluated post-export, but this is a trival  
> issue
> as I can export the document in question twice. However, I want to
> include the result in a \thanks{·}-node in the #+TITLE.
>
> I have tried varioues methods, but so far without luck. To given an
> example, I want to replace X by the results of my Babel-snip in the
> following:
>
> ,----
> | #+TITLE: \Large Education in Labor Markets With Asymmetric  
> Information\thanks{Approximatly X words using \TeX Count}
> `----
>

You are right.  Using an inline code block, e.g. src_sh[:noweb yes] 
{<<wordcount>>}, doesn't seem to work in #+TITLE.  I'm not sure how it  
might be made to work there.

All the best,
Tom

> Thanks in advance,
> Rasmus

Re: Questions on LaTeX Exporter

[Eric S Fraga]

Rasmus <rasmus.pank@gmail.com> writes:

[...]

> Org populates every section with a label. I would
> like to \ref or \vref these. I could predict \label's, but this a rather
> fragile solution. When I use "Org-links" I get a text link suitable
> for e.g. html. I want to use \ref to get a number. One solution is
>
> ,----
> |   * section
> |   #+latex: \label{sec:sec}
> `----
>
> But there /must/ be a better way to this, eh?

Slightly simpler: you can simply use \label{} and \ref{} directly in org
text:

--8<---------------cut here---------------start------------->8---
* Introduction \label{sec:intro}

In section \ref{sec:intro}, we see that...
--8<---------------cut here---------------end--------------->8---

Much cleaner than having to put in latex directives to org.
Obviously, the label need not be on the headline; it could just as well
be on the next line.

-- 
: Eric S Fraga (GnuPG: 0xC89193D8FFFCF67D) in Emacs 24.0.50.1
: using Org-mode version 7.4 (release_7.4.646.g57806)

Re: Questions on LaTeX Exporter

[Lawrence Mitchell]

Thomas S. Dye wrote:

[...]

>> ,----
>> |   * section
>> |   #+latex: \label{sec:sec}
>> `----

>> But there /must/ be a better way to this, eh?

> Good point.  It would be great to leverage Org-links to resolve cross
> references to document sections.

If you do:

(setq org-export-latex-hyperref-format "\\ref{%s}") then you can
refer to sections by their numbers with "as we see in section
[[section]]" and it works nicely.


-- 
Lawrence Mitchell <wence@gmx.li>

Re: Questions on LaTeX Exporter

[Rasmus Pank Roulund]

> (setq org-export-latex-hyperref-format "\\ref{%s}") then you can
> refer to sections by their numbers with "as we see in section
> [[section]]" and it works nicely.

Wow; it works! Lawrence, in your experience, how fragile is this? The
bliss of LaTeX labels is that they are independent of the printed
headings so I can change the title and retain a sensible \ref.

Eric, thanks for your point. I still think it less than ideal, as
illustrate by this snip.

,----
| \section{Introduction}
| \label{sec-1}
|
| \label{sec:into}
`----

Org has a /really/ bad habit of inserting blank lines! Here is an
example of a "fix" from a beamer presentation:

,----
| *** Stiglitz							:B_quotation:
|     :PROPERTIES:
|     :BEAMER_env: quotation
|     :END:
|     \noindent
|     Social capital is a concept with a short and already confused history.
| #+latex:  \\\hfill\citep[pp. 59]{stiglitz99}
`----

And the output:

,----
| \begin{quotation} % Stiglitz
| \label{sec-2_1_1}
|
|     \noindent
|     Social capital is a concept with a short and already confused history.
| \\\hfill\citep[pp. 59]{stiglitz99}
| \end{quotation}
`----

--
Thanks,
Rasmus

Re: Questions on LaTeX Exporter

[Eric S Fraga]

Rasmus Pank Roulund <rasmus.pank@gmail.com> writes:

>> (setq org-export-latex-hyperref-format "\\ref{%s}") then you can
>> refer to sections by their numbers with "as we see in section
>> [[section]]" and it works nicely.
>
> Wow; it works! Lawrence, in your experience, how fragile is this? The
> bliss of LaTeX labels is that they are independent of the printed
> headings so I can change the title and retain a sensible \ref.
>
> Eric, thanks for your point. I still think it less than ideal, as
> illustrate by this snip.
>
> ,----
> | \section{Introduction}
> | \label{sec-1}
> |
> | \label{sec:into}
> `----
>
> Org has a /really/ bad habit of inserting blank lines! 

But Latex doesn't care?  =sec:into= will still be fine so I don't see
why this is not suitable *and* it is not fragile as far as I can tell.
I've used this approach for a long time.

> Here is an
> example of a "fix" from a beamer presentation:
>
> ,----
> | *** Stiglitz							:B_quotation:
> |     :PROPERTIES:
> |     :BEAMER_env: quotation
> |     :END:
> |     \noindent
> |     Social capital is a concept with a short and already confused history.
> | #+latex:  \\\hfill\citep[pp. 59]{stiglitz99}
> `----
>
> And the output:
>
> ,----
> | \begin{quotation} % Stiglitz
> | \label{sec-2_1_1}
> |
> |     \noindent
> |     Social capital is a concept with a short and already confused history.
> | \\\hfill\citep[pp. 59]{stiglitz99}
> | \end{quotation}
> `----
>
> --
> Thanks,
> Rasmus

I am not sure what point you are trying to make in this case?  In any
case, you could have done:

--8<---------------cut here---------------start------------->8---
*** Stiglitz 							:B_quotation:
     :PROPERTIES:
     :BEAMER_env: quotation
     :END:
     \noindent
     Social capital is a concept with a short and already confused history.
     \\\hfill\citep[pp. 59]{stiglitz99}
--8<---------------cut here---------------end--------------->8---

(i.e. no need for the #+latex directive...)

Org is smart enough to export that last line properly (well, I have just
tried it and it exports fine).

-- 
: Eric S Fraga (GnuPG: 0xC89193D8FFFCF67D) in Emacs 24.0.50.1
: using Org-mode version 7.4 (release_7.4.580.g85729.dirty)

Re: Questions on LaTeX Exporter

[Rasmus Pank Roulund]

Hi,

> But Latex doesn't care?  =sec:into= will still be fine so I don't see
> why this is not suitable *and* it is not fragile as far as I can tell.
> I've used this approach for a long time.
No, using \label's is never fragile! The /only/ theoretical possibility 
is that the \label is placed on a new page, but this would only be an 
issue in perverse cases as vanilla-LaTeX would not place a heading alone 
(i.e. just before a page break). It is an aesthetic issue. I can't help 
my scrutinizing of the .tex-output :)

 >> beamer quote
> I am not sure what point you are trying to make in this case?
It inserts a blank line which will cause the text to be indented. So I 
need to add a \noindent to avoid the indent. I never asked for a blank 
line. I apologize for obscurity.

> (i.e. no need for the #+latex directive...)

I know. I a later quote in the same document I actually didn't use it, 
so my best guess is that it was an experiment to see whether there were 
any differences.

Thanks,
Rasmus

PS: I might go to UCL next semester. I haven't decided yet.

Re: Questions on LaTeX Exporter

[suvayu ali]

Hi,

On Mon, Mar 7, 2011 at 4:10 AM, Rasmus Pank Roulund
<rasmus.pank@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> I am not sure what point you are trying to make in this case?
>
> It inserts a blank line which will cause the text to be indented. So I need
> to add a \noindent to avoid the indent. I never asked for a blank line. I
> apologize for obscurity.

I think what Eric is asking is why does the empty line matter?

The way I see it using org to write latex documents (ideally) means I
don't need to look at the latex source at all! All I need to do is
call `C-c C-e p' and I get a publication quality pdf. But of course
that is not always the case when we start out with a document, but as
we approach completion I would expect to reach that "ideal" state.
Isn't that how you view it?

-- 
Suvayu

Open source is the future. It sets us free.

Re: Questions on LaTeX Exporter

[Rasmus Pank Roulund]

> I think what Eric is asking is why does the empty line matter?  I just
realize that the undesirable behavior is caused by the fact that the
quotation rather than the quote environment is used. Sorry for the
noise!

> All I need to do is call `C-c C-e p' and I get a publication quality
> pdf. But of course that is not always the case when we start out with
> a document, but as we approach completion I would expect to reach that
> "ideal" state.  Isn't that how you view it?

Sure, but when undesirable results are obtained I will go to the LaTeX
code since I can determine the problem in the LaTeX code.

I am in no way unthankful. Rather, I try to share criticism that might
be useful in improving the exporter, such as not being able to demand
ordinary space rather than full stop after 'e.g.'. On the other hand, it
may be that I just add noise :)

Thanks,
Rasmus

Re: Questions on LaTeX Exporter

[Suvayu Ali]

Hi Rasmus

On Mon, 07 Mar 2011 13:49:02 +0100
Rasmus Pank Roulund <rasmus.pank@gmail.com> wrote:

> I am in no way unthankful. Rather, I try to share criticism that might
> be useful in improving the exporter, such as not being able to demand
> ordinary space rather than full stop after 'e.g.'. On the other hand,
> it may be that I just add noise :)
> 

I am just an org-mode user and one thing I can say for sure the
developers always welcome criticism.

FWIW, I also recently had the need for 'e.g.' followed by an ordinary
space but then I decided against using it as it loses the formality
required in my case (writing a master's thesis) :).

> Thanks,
> Rasmus


-- 
Suvayu

Open source is the future. It sets us free.

Re: Questions on LaTeX Exporter

[Lawrence Mitchell]

Rasmus wrote:

> However, I have noticed at least one non-acceptable issue. When using
> using English, LaTeX (via Babel or just default) full-stops (≈double
> space) will be inserted after dots. However, with abbrevation one would
> use an ordinary space (i.e.\ an escaped space ("\ ") in LaTeX). Org does
> not seem to notice abbrivations—how could it?—and further "\ " is
> interpreted literaly. I need to have an escaped space.

(setq org-entities-user '(("space" "\\ " nil " " " " " " " ")))

then

this is some text, e.g.\space foo bar

=>

this is some text, e.g.\  foo bar

[...]

Lawrence
-- 
Lawrence Mitchell <wence@gmx.li>

Re: Questions on LaTeX Exporter

[Thomas S. Dye]

Aloha Lawrence,

This is great.  Thanks!

Tom

On Mar 7, 2011, at 4:00 AM, Lawrence Mitchell wrote:

> Rasmus wrote:
>
>> However, I have noticed at least one non-acceptable issue. When using
>> using English, LaTeX (via Babel or just default) full-stops  
>> (≈double
>> space) will be inserted after dots. However, with abbrevation one  
>> would
>> use an ordinary space (i.e.\ an escaped space ("\ ") in LaTeX). Org  
>> does
>> not seem to notice abbrivations—how could it?—and further "\ " is
>> interpreted literaly. I need to have an escaped space.
>
> (setq org-entities-user '(("space" "\\ " nil " " " " " " " ")))
>
> then
>
> this is some text, e.g.\space foo bar
>
> =>
>
> this is some text, e.g.\  foo bar
>
> [...]
>
> Lawrence
> -- 
> Lawrence Mitchell <wence@gmx.li>
>
>

Re: Questions on LaTeX Exporter

[Thomas S. Dye]

Aloha Lawrence,

It does indeed work nicely.  Thanks!

Tom

On Mar 6, 2011, at 11:46 PM, Lawrence Mitchell wrote:

> Thomas S. Dye wrote:
>
> [...]
>
>>> ,----
>>> |   * section
>>> |   #+latex: \label{sec:sec}
>>> `----
>
>>> But there /must/ be a better way to this, eh?
>
>> Good point.  It would be great to leverage Org-links to resolve cross
>> references to document sections.
>
> If you do:
>
> (setq org-export-latex-hyperref-format "\\ref{%s}") then you can
> refer to sections by their numbers with "as we see in section
> [[section]]" and it works nicely.
>
>
> -- 
> Lawrence Mitchell <wence@gmx.li>
>
>